Daggers, Boot Knives & SD Folders


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Nematocyst
February 3, 2010, 12:58 AM
Well, I've been bitten by a bug called ... yeah, see subject line.

I'm a fan of blades. Have been since I was very young. I remember my first pocket knife that my dad gave me - a Case - and my first fixed blade: a military knife from a surplus store.

But even though I've owned hunting/survival knives, folders, machetes (though no kukri ... yet), I've never owned a dagger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger) or a boot knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_knife).

I've decided that's going to change. For reasons I'll explain later, in a follow up post, I'm in the market for one ... or more - of each.

I've been doing my homework for a while, reading web pages, including some here at THR. I've shared some PM's with a couple of "experts". <ahem>

I've read a lot of reviews of knives by SOG, Boker, Gerber, Applegate Fairbairn, Kershaw, Falkniven, Smith Wesson, Cold Steel ... others.

As soon as I get some time (oh, I hope I get some of that), I'll post some of the essays, history, reviews and sale pages for daggers and boot knives (let's call them "boots").

Yet, I want more.

I want to learn lots about these specialized weapons - and let's be clear, I'm talking here about double-edged, pointy knives that are weapons, either SD or offensive, not pointy utility blades.

{Added by edit the following day: When reading John S's post #13, I realized that it's probably unfair to restrict discussions to "double-edged" blades exclusively, even if I tend to think of daggers and boots in such terms. Suffice to say, regardless of how we define them, I'm trying to keep the discussion here focused on daggers & boot knives, and away from survival knives, hunting knives, culinary, etc. }

The concept alone intrigues me, let alone their potential uses.

I'm also the kind of guy that likes to collect a whole bunch of information about one particular weapon (or type of weapon) in a single place. (Just click on "levers" and "wheels" in my sig line for a couple of examples.)

Now, I know this isn't BladeForum (http://www.bladeforums.com/), and that there are fewer officianadoes of daggers/boots here than there. But that's ok. This is weapons home for me, so I'd rather learn here, at least enough so that when I go over there, I don't get laughed at for asking stupid questions. :rolleyes:

Here are some of the questions I have, that I suggest we discuss in here.

* Who are the worst/best makers?
* What are the pros/cons of short/long blades?
* Is there an optimal dagger blade/total length?
* Is there an optimal boot blade/total length?
* Is there an optimal blade shape?
* Which steel is best for daggers/boots?
* Do serrated edges matter? Pro/con?
* What's the best shape and material for a grip?
* What should the guards look like?
* Who makes the best sheaths, out of what material?
* What carry tips should we know about?
* What can you share about dagger/boot knife history?
* What should we know about legalities?
* What about training?
* What other stuff needs discussing?

And then, of course, there are the personal stories, those of you behind the scenes in {insert foreign country here} sneaking up on the palace with only your trusted _________ dagger, and preventing the coup de tat at the 11th hour.

Yes, pics are wonderful.

So, does all this make sense?

Hey, we've got a few knife experts in the house. Let's see what we know about these genres of knives.

Let's make this thread into a dagger/boot knife grand central.

Note that I even chose a pointy thing as the thread icon. ;)

OK, have fun with it. I'm here to learn.
Maybe I'll even contribute something. :)

Nem

PS 1: This thread is dedicated to the memory of Byron Quick (see post 13 for motivation).

PS 2: I just realized that my user name refers to a dagger like projection - a nematocyst - fired from a specialized jellyfish cell called a cnidocyte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnidocyte). Maybe that explains my interest in these knives.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Nematocyst-discharged.png

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Nematocyst
February 3, 2010, 01:29 AM
OK, just to kick things off, I'll tell a bit about my story, my motivation for starting this thread.

Currently, I own two knives (outside the kitchen): my EDC - a Benchmade Osborne - and my camp/survival knife - a SOG Seal Pup Elite. (Yes, love both. Just got a new sheath for the latter today.)

But recently - in the last few months - I've decided for mostly irrational reasons - :uhoh: - that I want a dagger.

Well, let me clarify that. I really want a boot knife to start with. Something smallish - on the order of 3.5" to 4", maybe, that I can carry concealed, perhaps in a boot, or on a chain around my neck, or maybe even just in a belt sheath.

Why? I dunno, something just comforting about the thought. Like I said, it's irrational; can't justify it. I'm not - underscore not - looking to become a knife fighter, commando, mall ninja. Not.

But as a last ditch tool, there's just something comforting to me about them. I admit that this attraction may go back into my childhood, the sense of security that I - a skinny kid - gained from carrying my knives in the 'hood. I also admit that I've never been in a knife fight. And from all I can tell, from all that I read, I hope never to be in one. :scrutiny:

Still, I'm going to get a couple, if for no other reason than, just because.

As far as daggers, I think I'd eventually like to own a Boker, something like this (http://estore.websitepros.com/1891705/Detail.bok?no=324) with a 4.75" blade.

But for starters, I'm leaning towards a shorter boot knife, which I think of as a short dagger. (Feel free to correct me; I'm the student here.)

My current top consideration is a SOG Mini Pentagon (http://sogknives.com/store/M14.html). At MSRP $85, it's decent. Street prices range $40 - $50. Yeah, I understand SOG is no Chris Reeves, but heh ... ... ... The only things I'm not hot about on the SOG MP is the serrated edge (rather have smooth on both sides) and the sheath.

I've looked at the Gerber Guardian (http://www.rockynational.com/1057_05803_Gerber_Guardian_Backup_Knife.html). I like the blade, but the grip doesn't work for me: too small, too skinny. (And, the newer ones are getting some terrible reviews on Amazon. Apparently, someone bought the company, QC going downhill, etc?)

Likewise the Kershaw boot knife (http://www.agrussell.com/kershaw-military-boot-knife/p/KEhhh4351/): just don't like the slim design. I seem to desire a broader blade. It's also longer than most boot knives, but I'm open.

I've also read about Tim Galyean's ZT (http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=391&brand=zt). Nice looking. Slightly more spending, but ... you (may) get what you pay for.

Then, there's the longer SOG Daggert 1 (http://www.buysog.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=D25T); keyword for me: longer. At 5.5", I'm not interested in it now.

I also spent a few minutes looking at Smith Wesson's SWHRT9B Black HRT Boot Knife (http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum6900.php). With the help of a knowledgeable person, I've pretty much ruled it out now. (One word: cheap.)

I'm open to suggestions and ideas.

zstephens13
February 3, 2010, 03:06 AM
I have just started carry this CRKT Sting boot knife for the last few weeks or so and i really like it. It locks into the sheath really well which can be worn on the leg, arm or belt either horizontally or vertically. I got it at REI for about $50, so it wasn't that expensive but is a real quality item.

Nematocyst
February 3, 2010, 03:15 AM
It locks into the sheath really well which can be
worn on the leg, arm or belt either horizontally or vertically.I like the idea of wearing it on my arm.

I visualize Maximus the Gladiator asleep when Quintus comes in to tell him that the emperor needs him.

Startled, he pulls his dagger from under his sleeve.

zstephens13
February 3, 2010, 04:00 AM
yeah it is a really good idea. The blade really CLICKS into the sheath pretty well so i'm pretty confident in carrying the blade upside-down even. It's a pretty cool knife and its nice to know i have something when i can't have a gun on hand.

hso
February 3, 2010, 06:58 AM
Do you care what your state law says about daggers and blade length, so we can get that criteria out of the way or cleave to it?

bikerdoc
February 3, 2010, 07:34 AM
What should we know about legalities?


HSO is right. Our state law states "dirk, dagger, double edged weapon." Backed up by case law.

Stainz
February 3, 2010, 08:46 AM
To really test your local laws, consider the Benchmade 3300 'Infidel' - a 3.91" double edged spear point that automatically projects 'out the front'. Very well made - but the price separates the 'real players' from the casually curious - MSRP $450 (My pusher has them - that's right, more than one in stock - for ~$300.)

Of course, the least expensive double edge I have seen - which I inadvertently bought - is a USA/USMC KaBar - that secondary bevel came sharp! My late Dad's old USN KaBar, like the el-cheapo commemorative USN I recently purchased, came dull on that secondary bevel.

Interesting about local laws. Daggers are forbidden - but no length constraints on fixed or folders. When I asked several deputies re my desire to carry a pocketed 3-3.7" fb in a KSF sheath, the most restrictive answer was a question, "When you sit down, do you injure yourself? No? Then it's okay!". Auto's are apparentally okay - my wife bought me a BM 6150 - auto version of the 615 Mini Rukus - which I already have - from my local BM & S&W pusher - for Christmas. Neat - but not me - it stays in the display case.

Check the typical periodic sale flyers for commemorative KaBars. After the commemorative 'date', the prices get 'better' - sometimes half the price of a regular one. I'm betting that art work comes off easily. Everyone needs a real KaBar!

Stainz

hso
February 3, 2010, 12:26 PM
Sorry to be a the bearer of bad news.

OR law on knives -

166.240 Carrying of concealed weapons. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries concealed upon the person any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person, commits a Class B misdemeanor.

WA law on knives -

RCW 9.41.250
Dangerous weapons — Penalty.

Every person who:

(1) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward, downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement;

(2) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any dagger, dirk, pistol, or other dangerous weapon; or

(3) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm,

is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

***


RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.



Dunno what "furtively carries" may mean, but it usually speaks to intent, but the rest of the sentence prohibiting concealed carry seems pretty clear. I'll ask that the real lawyers (no "barracks lawyers please) chime in on that.

hso
February 3, 2010, 12:46 PM
Everyone needs a real KaBar! Sorry, but Camillus is no longer in business.:evil:

Nematocyst
February 3, 2010, 02:40 PM
Just getting logged in on a very busy day.
(Yesterday was a day off, so I had time to write
long essays about daggers and boots; today ... alas.)

Briefly for now ...

Do you care what your state law says about daggers and blade length,
so we can get that criteria out of the way or cleave to it? Yes, absolutely, I do care what state laws say, and not just mine,
because I may be in possession of said tools when traveling.

That's why I explicitly listed "legalities" as one of the topics for discussion.

In fact, Hso, I'm glad that you brought it up so early in the thread, so that we can get this information in Dagger-Boot Central (DBC?) right up front, so that readers and participants know that we know and care.

Now, as to how that information effects each of us in terms of whether we own such weapons, how and when we (intend to) carry them both during normal times and in non-normal times, say during large scale civil breakdown caused by any number of human or natural causes that shall not be discussed in this thread <ahem :scrutiny: :uhoh: >, etc, well, those issue are daggers of a different color that we may or may not discuss here.

Having said all, I think we can still discuss all the other topics on my OP list -- and more that others will raise - as long as we conduct our discussions in a way that honors the laws, not making recommendations to people that are not legal.

In other words, we should conduct our discussions here
just like we conduct all discussions on The High Road {tm}. ;)

How's zat?

:cool:

Piraticalbob
February 3, 2010, 03:18 PM
Here are a couple of my small daggers. The one on the left is a sgian dubh made by a knifemaker friend back in the early 90's (it was one of his early efforts, he does much better work now) it features a blade of 1095 with handle of ebony and sterling silver furniture; the one on the right is a boot knife made by Western Cutlery (now defunct), purchased in the early 1980's; it features a 440A blade and scales of Dymondwood.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/PiraticalBob/bootknivesretouched.jpg

JShirley
February 3, 2010, 04:13 PM
Who are the worst/best makers?

While there are noticeably horrible makers, as with so many other items, there is no best. Even when a user can narrow down his needs, there will invariably be a range of acceptable products.

One of my personal favorite makers is John Greco (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4751716&postcount=1). Some of his small pieces make good "boot" knives, while still being the single-edged format I prefer.

My friend Shane Justice made a couple of the most beautiful little knives like this, one I gave to Byron Quick. Once I started reading this thread, I realized that the little knife, one of the best of its type that I've seen, may have been lost after Byron's death in December. :( Just a knife, but...

A pic of the little Sgian Dubh (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Jinete_delViento/sgiandhuRZD.jpg)Shane made for one friend. Byron's late Christmas present for '05:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=82052&d=1217284261


Byron really loved this knife. I believe he pronounced it the best boot knife he'd seen.

Nematocyst
February 3, 2010, 04:32 PM
After reading John's post above ^ - and lamenting the loss of Byron's knife - I've added the following to my OP.

{Added by edit the following day: When reading Jon S's post #13, I realized that it's probably unfair to restrict discussions to "double-edged" blades exclusively, even if I tend to think of daggers and boots in such terms. Suffice to say, regardless of how we define them, I'm trying to keep the discussion here focused on daggers & boot knives, and away from survival knives, hunting knives, culinary, etc.)

<followed by this at the end>

This thread is dedicated to the memory of Byron Quick (see post 13 for motivation).

Fred Fuller
February 3, 2010, 07:11 PM
In NC-

SUBCHAPTER IX. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PUBLIC PEACE.
Article 35.
Offenses Against the Public Peace.
§ 14‑269. Carrying concealed weapons.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises.
- http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_14/gs_14-269.html

There have been Europeans wandering around in NC for a really long time, and in case you can't tell from this bit of legislative history, a large number of them have been Scots. My blue-faced ancestors would seem to have been a quarrelsome lot, given NC's legislative attention to the dirk, a particularly Scottish blade.

But any sort of concealed carry of any fixed blade here is generally frowned upon. At least they finally started issuing concealed carry permits for handguns...

Fred

p35
February 3, 2010, 07:52 PM
In my experience under Washington law "dagger"= "double edge".

Floppy_D
February 3, 2010, 07:54 PM
Almost every use I have for a knife involves me opening, prying or cutting something, or offering my tool for another to do the same... a knfie is a general utility tool. As such, I'd want it to comply to all local regulations. If I wanted a concealed weapon for last ditch efforts or situations, I'd want more than a concealed knife, hence my carry permit. Conversely, if someone needed a box opened, I'd shy away from pulling a dagger out of my boot to help. If I need a weapon, it won't be a knife. Just my take on it.

hso
February 3, 2010, 10:16 PM
Worst? Stay away from cheap offshore manufactures. Just because a knife is made in China doesn't mean that it's a cheap POS. If a knife is made in Pakistan I'd pass.

Best? My "best" and your "best" and his "best" may all be different. Serviceable, while still subjective, is a better term. The Western boot knife shown above is certainly serviceable as a boot dagger. The Gerber Guardian, the SOG Pentagon, Kershaw Military Boot and any number of other mass market manufacturers make a perfectly serviceable small dagger of good quality. Some of what I handle go far beyond what is sufficient and necessary into functional art work. Many of them are still serviceable weapons and some have taken style out of the realm of function.

The best characteristics for a small dagger are 4-5" razor sharp blade, pointy tip that is still strong enough to not bend or break on a belt buckle or rib, small but positive guard that keeps you from slipping onto the edge, but is no smaller than needed for that purpose, solid non slippery grip, overall balance on the index or second finger.

shockwave
February 3, 2010, 10:31 PM
If you really need a knife for combat (OP says that's not the objective, understood) then the Cold Steel Tanto (http://www.coldsteel.com/tantoseries.html) is the best you can buy. Those are killing blades.

Daggers are not good knives for carry. Double-edged knives tend to be poor for slashing so this is basically a stabbing weapon. A Bowie or tanto is a much better blade for fighting and for basic survival activities and whittling and whatnot.

22-rimfire
February 3, 2010, 10:41 PM
I have a couple (Gerber and Kershaw off the top of my head). The one I actually carried was a Gerber dagger which was a pretty good basic dagger. Then I learned about the legalities and that particular knife now resides in my garage and I have no interest in it. I doubt I could even find it. I would rather carry a small single edged fixed blade in a horizontal sheath on my belt (the Bob Dozier sheath).

Have you thought about how you are going to wear this blade? Ankle? Boot? Will your boots be comfortable after having a sharp thing hanging inside?

JShirley
February 3, 2010, 11:14 PM
If you really need a knife for combat (OP says that's not the objective, understood) then the Cold Steel Tanto is the best you can buy

I'm very interested to know your criteria and qualifications to make such a pronouncement. When I was 19 and much more gullible, I believed exactly the same thing.

(Incidentally, having BEEN in combat, and specializing in military history, I can tell you that a "combat" blade is a tool that can be used in an emergency on an enemy, not a fighting knife.)

John

hso
February 3, 2010, 11:35 PM
If you really need a knife for combat (OP says that's not the objective, understood) then the Cold Steel Tanto is the best you can buy.

No, it's not. It's just another serviceable mass market production knife like scores of others. Being no better than many others it can't be "the best" any more than so many others are.

If you're a follower of Col. Applegate, the absence of a sharpened back edge makes it fail on that point alone.

Let's not get into the "best" contest since it really doesn't exist.

shockwave
February 3, 2010, 11:57 PM
I'm very interested to know your criteria and qualifications to make such a pronouncement.

That is a very fair question. Very fair.

Posit a graph. One axis is value and one is price. The cold steel tanto (linked above) is about the best fighting knife you're going to find. You can spend much more. It's effortless to spend $10,000 or more on a Damascus blade of some obscure Iranian tribal offering, but this isn't the thread for that.

The tanto blade has been proven, along with the Bowie, to be a very effective design. Cold Steel mass produces and won't give you the quality of a $5,000 knife, but will get you close to that level of performance. So as you gather your funds, get the cold steel 12 inch and have that as a start, and add others beyond that.

I like Cold Steel blades because they are very inexpensive yet offer old world folding quality and will take and hold a good edge. For stabbing, the tanto shape is proven. For slashing, you have both sharpness and weight. Some nazi knife will have a good stab, but nothing like the power of this blade. (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/csstoreonline_2088_26259682)

Just to be clear, all blades are situational. I think this one is versatile - your mileage may vary. This one needs little maintenance, rarely needs sharpening, and has no weaknesses. Build your collection around this kind of blade and you'll do well. And get Bowie, butterfly, one-handed openers and so on. Have them all over your house. Be armed and well armed and you won't regret it.

Nematocyst
February 4, 2010, 01:48 AM
Good discussion going on here since I last checked in. Thanks for all the input.

Candidate for most useful paragraph so far:

The best characteristics for a small dagger are 4-5" razor sharp blade, pointy tip that is still strong enough to not bend or break on a belt buckle or rib, small but positive guard that keeps you from slipping onto the edge, but is no smaller than needed for that purpose, solid non slippery grip, overall balance on the index or second finger. Then, there's this little bit of info:

One of my personal favorite makers is John Greco.
Some of his small pieces make good "boot" knives,
while still being the single-edged format I prefer.John, remind me why you prefer single edged over double, please.

Nematocyst
February 4, 2010, 01:58 AM
I'll address a couple of other points/questions here.

If I wanted a concealed weapon for last ditch efforts or situations, I'd want more than a concealed knife, hence my carry permit. Yes, I prefer my .38 spl snub over any knife.

I just want a knife, like a boot or dagger, as that extra little bit of insurance in addition to,
not instead of, including those times when ammo might not be available. ;)

Have you thought about how you are going to wear this blade? Ankle? Boot?Not entirely. It would depend on what I actually buy. I'll let the blade determine the carry system, not the other way around.

If I go with a boot knife = small, I'd probably go with either a horizontal sheath (those Doziers are nice), or a neck sheath, or something up my sleeve. I really like the sleeve idea, even though I'd probably have to have something custom made for my forearm.

Funny thing for me, I never wear short sleeves. Even in summer. I may roll up my sleeves during super hot days, but I'm always wearing long sleeves. (Yes, there are reasons, but not totally relevant to my point.)

So concealing up my shirt/jacket arm would not be hard.

JShirley
February 4, 2010, 03:41 AM
Nem,

Both Byron and I trained in Japanese martial arts. There are some techniques that can only be done with single edges, such as reinforcing the spine with your non-dominant hand. This allows a great deal more power, especially if your blade has become dull, or your opponent is wearing thick clothing, and you have a smaller knife. Singles can also be safely held in more grips than doubles. Versatility is one advantage single-edged knives have.

Single-edged knives are also usually stronger than double-edged.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, singled-edged blades are much more likely to be legal.

Double-edged blades don't necessarily penetrate better, and since a natural, saber, or hammer style hold all require cutting in the direction your knuckles are pointing, they can't make powerful cuts any faster, despite the additional cutting surface.

shockwave,

The tanto blade has been proven, along with the Bowie, to be a very effective design.

I don't want to hijack Nem's thread, but I challenge you to start another thread to "prove" just that. Expect to be trounced politely but thoroughly. :)


John

Nematocyst
February 4, 2010, 03:54 AM
^ That all makes sense, John.

Good points.

(Oh, I made a pun : good points.)

hso
February 4, 2010, 09:34 AM
I'll add that in Filipino and Indonesian bladed arts the reinforcement of a strike with the off hand occurs as well in some cuts. In FMA you'll find that the reinforcement comes in the form of placing the off hand on the back of the gripping hand or even on the wrist because of the issue of getting cut touching the blade. The same occurs in some Chines forms with swords and knives.

The legal issues around carrying a knife for self defense are almost as significant as those for carrying a gun for self defense. The knife at some point is viewed as a tool in almost any jurisdiction, but the carrying of a dagger is often specifically prohibited because of it's definition as a dangerous weapon. (AG Russell opined that his Sting was a hunting knife with two edges so you could change to the still sharp second edge after dulling the first. Yeaahhhhh, riiighht, AG;)) Somewhere in between are those jurisdictions that allow the carry of smaller fixed blade knives.

As to how to carry, forget all the Wild Wild West and James Bond carry methods. If you're going to conceal a knife stick with a good OWB or IWB sheath. The IWB allows for much more discrete carry and you'd be amazed how big a blade can be discretely carried with most of it out of site with only the grip above the waist band. Smaller blades are very discretely carried as neck knives, but they can get to wear on the wearer when they're blade length approaches 4 inches (unless you want to drop big bucks on a Ti/Carbon fiber model).

I'd also like to avoid hijacking Nem's thread with a debate on so-called tanto's. There have already been plenty of threads debating them with plenty of learning opportunities fulfilled in them.

Nematocyst
February 4, 2010, 01:53 PM
Even though I'm still most interested in owning one or two double edged daggers or boot knives, this information about the pros of single-edged analogs is interesting and thought-provoking, increasing my appreciation of my SOG seal pup elite (http://sogknives.com/store/E37T.html), which I truly appreciate and value, especially when I'm in the wilds (even though I often carry it around the studio/workspace as an EDC).

Part of what I'm attempting to do here is to understand the distinction of the niches between the SPE and a dagger of comparable blade length.

I certainly do not view the SPE as a back up knife. That's what I want a boot knife for, and am leaning towards something small and light like the Pentagon Mini. At 3.3 oz, what's not to love (other than the serrated edge that I'm not as fond of)?

Nematocyst
February 4, 2010, 02:00 PM
A cyber-friend in the 642 club (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=314422) - who's advice about those revolvers I trust implicitly
after years of reading his ideas, along with personal knowledge of him and his experience -
posted this in this post (http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6245624&postcount=3714) after I pasted a link to this thread in that one.

It's relevant in this discussion, so I'm quoting it here.

UCP = "up close and personal", like snub nosed revolvers.

Nem - As far as UCP weapons are concerned, you are right on the money...actually there are many scenarios where the blade is superior to the gun. In extreme CQC when you have lost situational awareness the knife may be faster to deploy and is just as effective, sometimes more so. The importance of being physically fit and practiced in unarmed combat is sometimes (OK, most of the time) not a priority to a lot of concealed carry folks who get into the mindset that the gun is the goto weapon of choice. Many times, if not most times it will be the last. You stand a very good chance of having to fight your way clear to deploy a primary or secondary weapon and that is why it is always good to be...aware... :scrutiny:

Nematocyst
February 4, 2010, 02:09 PM
So, given John's and Hso's comments above about knife use in martial arts, let's discuss training a bit.

Suppose that you were going to recommend a training course for someone like me who does not intend to become a knife fighter per se :eek:, but wishes to learn some basics of ... how to effectively employ a boot knife (4" blade max) in a last-ditch SD role with greatest safety for myself (like not loosing fingers, for example).

What course of study might you recommend? Any books or articles for starters?

I'm assuming the recommendation would differ for single- v double-edged tools,
so since we're discussing both here, let's address both just for completeness.

Nematocyst
February 4, 2010, 02:50 PM
This discussion, this thread, is occurring in multiple cyber-venues. Without naming the others - you can PM me if you wish to know what they are - I'll say that I just read a public post from someone on one of the others that is well-written and relevant here in terms of legalities and training. So I'll copy it in.
______________

Nem,

At the outset, I'll make no claims to expertise, nor list any tactical schools I've trained under, with a knife. A fighting knife, IMO, is very different from a utility knife, and one will not do the job of the other, as effectively.

[Another poster] points out one of the types of knife prohibition law, generally, which is felonious use and intimidating use (e.g., brandishing). Unfortunately, there are a number of types of laws that you should consider in order to set the parameters for knife selection. From my review, knife laws in a State or local jurisdiction, are of the following types (and there may be more, but these are what I found, generally):

(1) Prohibition against possession
(2) Prohibition against open carry
(3) Prohibition against concealed carry
(4) Prohibition against intimidating use (brandishing)
(5) Prohibition against use of a knife in the commission of a crime (whether felony or otherwise)

Any of the first three categories may have prohibitions without looking at your actions, but are based upon type (knives defined as daggers, dirks, trefoils, switchblades, auto-openers) upon blade length, or upon other explicit characteristics (double-edged blades, for example).

I've discussed this subject with peace officers (retired and current) and, I received varying answers, which, to me, were unsatisfactory. I had a po at a gun store tell me that a fixed blade over 3" was illegal, and that any fixed blade surely will be confiscated, if I couldn't answer why I was carrying it, to his satisfaction. Ironically, within a few seconds, he drew a larger AO lockblade with a clip-draw from his front pocket, and extended it to within inches of my face, and said 'this is legal', without any suggestion that the actions he took in drawing it were improper. I was dumbfounded.

On a practical note, with knives, just as wrt some guns, how would one know what you have, until it is deployed? My county has specific laws dealing with concealed carry of knives, and some, who want to carry a larger fixed blade, put it in a sheath, openly displayed on the hip, to stay legal.

Some knife manufacturers (I spoke with one at SHOT, who was very helpful), specifically make their knives a hair shorter than 3", and are confident that they will be 'legal' in most, if not all, jurisdictions (even in Europe).

After considering the legalities on-the-surface, you will find that police officers are not fond of concealed fixed blades. A fixed blade knife is considered by them a VERY deadly weapon, depending on the skill of its user, with good reason. Deployment is very fast, and people, generally, have a very visceral reaction to the presentation of a knife, perhaps more so than to presentation of a firearm.

O.K. so that's IMO a summary of types of laws you should be aware of.

Onto knife selection ....

There are many schools of thought on the use of a fighting knife. The type of martial training you have or don't have should dictate the type of knife used. To my mind there are two major classifications, the Asian sword/knife systems and the Spanish/Euro-American sword/large-knife systems, and, then there are hybrid systems (krav maga, kali, escrima, etc.). They are very different, in that the size, shape, and characteristics of the knife employed relate closely to the 'forms' of martial/hand-to-hand combat in which one may be training.

As a general comparison, Asian systems focus on contracting movements, defensive movements, very close contact with hand-to-hand-elements, blocking, and slashing, while Spanish/Euro-American systems focus on expansive movements, engagement distances, and the thrust, as a primary skill (with slashing as secondary).

I've had difficulty with where and when and how a knife will be the most effective tool, just as I've had difficulties with where and when and how a BUG is to be employed, if at all. It always 'just depends'. E.g., someone may tell you their BUG is a pocket 642, while the primary is a 1911 IWB. But why must one attempt to draw the 1911 first? I simply won't generalize about which one should be deployed first in a confrontation. Same goes with a knife. It may or may not be the primary weapon, depending on the circumstances.

Another topic is the 'ingredients' to your knife. Type of blade (tanto, spear point, recurve, wharncliffe), length of blade, materials, and other components to the blade (types and size of guard, grip and pommel, quillons, notches, etc.). There are many choices here, and anyone who tells you which is best, without qualification, is coming from a perspective of bias, usually, in part, based upon their training pre-requisite martial arts, hand-to-hand combat. The martial arts training, or lack thereof, usually has a big effect on knife selection. But this bias convinces people who have no training in asian martial arts to go out, nonetheless, and acquire a knife not suited to their background.

The knife posted by [another poster] has all the attributes of a traditional euro fighting knife. If you have experience in that style of knife deployment, it can be very effective. I have one very similar that I picked up at a pawn shop, excellent handling/manipulation characteristics, but I can't carry it concealed (it likely would be classifed as a dagger, here, and the length is over 4") in my county, so it stays home.

Know your physical limitations and training background, and how far you are willing to go, training in that style. There isn't necessarily a 'best', so I'm not going to argue Bowie (which I'd prefer, however, based on my own skill-set) over Asian systems, here.

I think the discussion of knives, even moreso than discussion of types of firearms, remains a wide-open area, despite the fact that Americans have been fascinated with and have shown a general bias toward the Asian systems for over a generation now. Knife-design reflects some of that bias. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something to consider.

The Highlander
February 4, 2010, 03:11 PM
Anyone have any experience with the clinch pick from Shiv Works? While not a dagger or boot knife, it is in a similar vein with its primary purpose being for use as an offensive/defensive tool. (However it is legal in many more places being sub-3" and single-edged)

hso
February 4, 2010, 03:29 PM
I've played with one. You're right, it isn't a dagger. It is a very effective piece of gear for it's purpose.

hso
February 4, 2010, 03:39 PM
Nem,

The WA and OR state laws clearly make carrying a dagger illegal regardless of blade length. Pretty simple summary of the laws in the state you're in and closest to you. If you choose to carry one, you need to understand this so you can make an informed decision.

Daggers are predominantly associated with European fighting styles, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any Asian daggers. Most Asian styles are not focused on daggers, though. They focus on single edged knives and the styles you'd learn would almost exclusively focus on the single edged knife for much of the early study.

In summary, WA and OR state law prohibit carrying a dagger legally. If you want to carry a dagger and you don't want to find a western blade combatives school to spend a few months learning from a Maestro how to make it dance, keep it simple and study Applegate and practice.

shockwave
February 4, 2010, 03:50 PM
JShirley: I'll be happy to qualify my remarks somewhat. The "best" knife for a given purpose is always debatable. Something like the tanto I linked to earlier would be a poor choice for an outdoorsman or hunter who wants to dress game. As a general purpose combat knife, they are extremely strong and versatile. If someone is asking for advice about selection, as in this thread, I'll forward this type of knife for consideration. Ultimately, the user will have to make his or her own decision, same as with firearms.

What course of study might you recommend? Any books or articles for starters?
Get a rubber knife and practice with a friend. Nothing in a book will help you as much as real life practice. From an attacking perspective, assuming you aren't interested in lengthy training, it can be effective to hold the handle of the knife with the blade concealed against the back of your wrist and forearm (another argument for single-edge). You can slash, block and transition to a stab, without revealing that you have a knife.

From a basic self-defense standpoint, a knife is just a really useful thing to have in your hand. Hold it in any way that feels strong and natural to you, then fight per normal and let the blade come into play naturally. Use both hands for punching, kick, etc.

Gunfighter123
February 4, 2010, 10:15 PM
Suppose that you were going to recommend a training course for someone like me who does not intend to become a knife fighter per se , but wishes to learn some basics of ... how to effectively employ a boot knife (4" blade max) in a last-ditch SD role with greatest safety for myself (like not loosing fingers, for example).

What course of study might you recommend? Any books or articles for starters?


Check out FMA otherwise known as Filipino martial arts --- there are a bunch but the three basic are Eskrima , Kali, and Arnis ------- after takeing Korean Tae Kwon Do for a few years and then Japanese Isshinryu Karate -- I was lucky enough to find a local Datu who taught Eskrima along with JKD etc.

What you will learn is that in a very short time --- a edged weapon , impact weapon , or even empty hands are all interchangeable !!! I had to take Tae Kwon Do and Isshinryu Karate for AT LEAST a year before being taught any kinds of weapons -- with Eskrima , you start on single and double sticks the first day/week !!!

Do a search on youtube ---- you will see many vids on Eskrima to get a idea on what you can learn.

DAVIDSDIVAD
February 4, 2010, 10:55 PM
Japanese martial arts

I wasn't aware of any Japanese martial arts involving double edged weapons (aside from the super duper rare spear.)

Which did you practice?

Izzy77
February 5, 2010, 01:28 AM
Here is your best dagger:

www.pistolanddagger.com

http://pistolanddagger.com/images/stories/eickhorn.jpg

Nematocyst
February 5, 2010, 02:27 AM
Here is your best dagger: www.pistolanddagger.comQuite the little tooth pick, eh?

Gunfighter, I'm checking out Eskrima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskrima)on youtube now.

One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH309YwzxsY).

Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWrviw6M9Eo).

Three (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfWp0fV0gMQ).

Four (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfWp0fV0gMQ).

Five (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THCE25dqMM8&feature=related).

Very interesting.

hso
February 5, 2010, 10:24 AM
Izzy77,

Is the handle round like the Sykes-Fairbairn or oval?

Gunfighter123
February 5, 2010, 01:01 PM
Hiya Nem,
Here is a link to the basic strikes , you will see MANY different " strike systems" or counts in Eskrima --- the most used/agreed on are #1-#4 --- and remember the strikes/angles are the same be it a ballbat/2" blade/sword/nunchuck etc. etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16myQqtAnJc

When you get time , look up "Barong knife/blade" on youtube --- some good vids.

Nematocyst
February 5, 2010, 04:15 PM
GF (and others),

I'm now officially "et up" with Eskrima.

Can't stop reading and watching videos, and am now actively seeking training opportunities with the help of someone via pm. I think it's what I've been looking for for a long time.

I'll not turn this into an Eskrima thread - I'm sure there are good ones out there already (and if not, we'll start one) - but keep it focused on daggers. However, Eskrima is going to be riding in the background (along with Applegate's techniques, I'm told by an adviser).

I did search "Barong knife/blade" and found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barong_%28knife%29). Quite impressive, and they fit the theme of this thread, me thinks. Will look for more videos later. (Sort of overlaps with John's love of kukri, also, I think.)

shockwave
February 5, 2010, 04:32 PM
I'm now officially "et up" with Eskrima.

Ah! Well if you're willing to train, then you get to be extremely dangerous with a blade. Eskrima is one of the most widely respected systems in the world, because, like Brazilian jiu jitsu, it has to work for real on the street. I'd happily take a pair of rattan escrima sticks over a knife. Fortunately, you don't have to choose - get both.

Nematocyst
February 5, 2010, 05:42 PM
I'd happily take a pair of rattan escrima sticks over a knife. I feel the same way, even though Eskrima is brand new to me. Gimme that distance.

Still, having a nice back up boot knife is justified, me thinks.

hso
February 5, 2010, 07:25 PM
and they fit the theme of this thread, me thinks

My barongs are short swords by most measures (>12-18 inches becomes a short sword). Unless you're looking at some miniature version the barong, or you're 10 ft tall with knee high boots, that's a bit beyond the dagger/boot knife range.

John and I and many others have said repeatedly that under almost all defensive conditions the stick trumps the knife (in the hands of a trained user). It takes a lot of training, and exceptional quickness, for guy with a knife to deal with a guy with a stick.

As shockwave said, if you're willing to train (every week) then you'll find Escrima or Silat or Kali or PTK to be very effective.

dairycreek
February 5, 2010, 07:58 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/dairycreek/BOOTKNIFE.jpg

My Kershaw Boot Knife. A great knife at a great price. Google up the Kershaw site and look at the specs.

Nematocyst
February 7, 2010, 12:47 AM
The Kershaw boot knife is back on my short list.
It makes more sense now on several levels.
I'd like a larger handle, but ... nice blade.

There was a homicide this morning in my town. Night worker.
First of the year here. Reminds me why I'm considering a boot knife.

I'm still et up with stick fighting. Now focusing on Arnis.
In fact, more specifically, Modern Arnis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Arnis).

Why? Because it focuses on one stick.
Kind of like one knife, one tennis racket, one frisbee ...
focuses on the flow of that one instrument.

I've also found a master of it (http://www.danandersonkarate.com/arnis.html) in my region.

TimboKhan
February 7, 2010, 01:05 AM
I went to a couple of Arnis classes before monetary difficulties (IE: I was broke) forced me to abandon it, and I really liked it. The thing that sort of sucked me in was that while you learn with a stick, the movements are applicable to any weapon, to include the bare hand, plus there were only 8 basic movements as I recall.

NI want to make it clear that I am in no way, shape or form knowledgeable about Arnis or any other martial art other than collegiate wrestling, but it seemed to me to be a pretty practical system. Some of you might read this and say "8 movements? Is this guy dumb?". Your answer is yes, in this particular area with my extremely limited experience, I am very dumb, so cut me some slack!

Nematocyst
February 7, 2010, 01:23 AM
The thing that sort of sucked me in was that while you learn with a stick, the movements are applicable to any weapon, to include the bare hand, plus there were only 8 basic movements as I recall.That's what got me in, also.

That, and the fact that it's done with sticks.
Being a mad drummer, that appealed.

Plus, knives like daggers are
pointy sharp steel sticks, so
it all just sort of works out.

Gunfighter123
February 7, 2010, 02:03 AM
While I like and own a few "boot" knives made by Gerber/Kershaw/Buck etc. --- the main problem I have with most factory made ones are the handle --- if/when a edged weapon gets blood/sweat etc. on it and the handle is like the above Kershaw -- the "butt" of the handle is not big or curved enough to stop the knife being lost from your grip.

Check out the Draven Havoc Barong below --- now that is a well thought out grip/handle
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DravenHavocBarong.jpg

Another good handle design is on my Paragon Battle Bowie;
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/ParagonBattleBowie.jpg

I also like a full tang on my blades --- easy to have a "skull crusher" or semi-point built into the pommel.

hso
February 7, 2010, 08:47 AM
Boot knives aren't "fighting" knives. They're the BackUpGun of daggers. They're not intended to be a substitute for a dagger and as such won't have all the characteristics of a fighting dagger. Their guards will be small, the blades shorter, the grips smaller, etc. because their purpose is to be carried all the time when a larger fighting knife isn't practical.

hso
February 7, 2010, 08:52 AM
Nem,

Escrima doesn't just focus on two sticks.

Modern Arnis is great stuff.

As Timbo said, these styles all are not limited to what a superficial observer might think. They include empty hand as well. The stick techniques are directly applicable to blades. They incorporate throws and locks. They're not just some guy with a stick wailing away.



If we're going to focus on FMA and stick fighting why not start another thread and keep this one focused on daggers like it was originally intended.

shockwave
February 7, 2010, 12:02 PM
Plus, knives like daggers are pointy sharp steel sticks

Yep. Take away the sticks and replace them with machetes and what do you have? Don't forget Chinese sword systems - these are devastating (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cmabEXRGhE) as well.

shockwave
February 7, 2010, 01:03 PM
Both the Kershaw and the Barong look like good items. I especially like the grip on the Barong. Looks like would mold to your hand.

Nematocyst
February 7, 2010, 04:59 PM
If we're going to focus on FMA and stick fighting why not start another thread and keep this one focused on daggers like it was originally intended.I agree.

I'm simmering ideas for an FMA thread ...

hso
February 7, 2010, 09:25 PM
I'm simmering ideas for an FMA thread ...


Best to learn some first or ask questions from those that have.

Nematocyst
February 7, 2010, 11:23 PM
^ My point would be to ask just those questions,
in the same way that one would start a thread to learn about,
say, daggers or boot knives before choosing one.

;)

ArfinGreebly
February 8, 2010, 01:21 AM
I mentioned somewhere that I have an original Gerber Guardian. Sharp little sucker. Cast aluminum handle with Armorhide coating.

Found some of the pictures I took when I dug it up from storage.

The spread can be seen here (http://noisyroom.net/pix/thr/2007_1208-knife/images.php). Sorry about the lighting and quality.

Here's a couple of the better (less blurry) shots:

http://noisyroom.net/pix/thr/2007_1208-knife/2007_1208-Knife-01.jpg


http://noisyroom.net/pix/thr/2007_1208-knife/2007_1208-Knife-07.jpg


And one that's pretty blurry -- I'll replace it when I get a better shot:
http://noisyroom.net/pix/thr/2007_1208-knife/2007_1208-Knife-04.jpg


I've had it since 1982.

It's never been carried.

Seemed like a good idea at the time. :o

Nematocyst
February 8, 2010, 02:35 PM
Arf, on your advice, I looked at and handled a Guardian last week.

I like the blade a lot. Very nice.

But I didn't like the handle/grip at all. Too small, even in my smaller hand. I feel like I want a more substantial handle. I really like the SOG Pentagon Mini for that.

Nematocyst
February 8, 2010, 05:41 PM
One of the top contenders for me now is the Kershaw military boot knife.

I'll save discussion of why for later. For now, just a question.

It's listed here (http://www.agrussell.com/product.asp?pn=KEhhh4351&bhcd2=1265668559) as having a blade of "1.41116 German Stainless".

Can someone translate that for me, please? Is that good, bad or neutral?

shockwave
February 8, 2010, 05:48 PM
The "1.41116 German Stainless" is a European steel roughly analogous to US 440A. As you know, all blades have to balance a compromise of strength and sharpness and ability to hold an edge. The Kershaw looks good and is a great value for that price.

hso
February 8, 2010, 07:58 PM
The page you linked to has a steel chart on the tool bar. As shockwave says it's similar for 440A. Good rust resistance, but pretty much the low end of the steel performance chart.

Remember that a boot knife is not a utility knife and it will be carried much and rarely used (if ever). It doesn't have to be made of a steel heat treated so that it will make 100 cuts in manilla rope before sliding. It has to not break and it has to be sharp enough and tough enough to make a few cuts.

p35
February 8, 2010, 08:00 PM
If you have a problem with small handles, you better handle a Kershaw MBK before you buy it. I like mine, but the handle is pretty narrow.

Izzy77
February 8, 2010, 08:57 PM
HSO Wrote:

Izzy77,

Is the handle round like the Sykes-Fairbairn or oval?


Round like the S-F. Stronger steel than most SF copies today.

Izzy77
February 8, 2010, 09:06 PM
In many cultures, a popular counter knife move is to grab the SPINE on the knife, or to sandwich it in two hands [V] ( [ = a hand, V = the knife) an twist it out of the hand of the knife wielder. The longer the blade and wider the flats ( sides) the easier it is to leverage out of your hand.


So I would go with a SHORT single edge, or a good dagger for your self defense, of course if your state says you should not, then by all means carry a bigger Mora or Pukko / modern interpretation thereof.

http://www.discountcutlery.net/media/EKA-619692.jpg

The EKA W11

hso
February 8, 2010, 10:00 PM
a popular counter knife move is to grab the SPINE on the knife, or to sandwich it in two hands

I wouldn't say "popular". That's a very advanced and difficult move and not something that you're ever likely to face.

Nematocyst
February 9, 2010, 01:18 AM
As shockwave says it's similar for 440A. Good rust resistance, but pretty much the low end of the steel performance chart.

Remember that a boot knife is not a utility knife and it will be carried much and rarely used (if ever). It doesn't have to be made of a steel heat treated so that it will make 100 cuts in manilla rope before sliding. It has to not break and it has to be sharp enough and tough enough to make a few cuts.So, does that argue that even though that German steel is not the best, that it's good enough for a boot knife?

(Sorry, I'm a little slow tonight.)

The Highlander
February 9, 2010, 02:08 AM
440a should be fine for a seldom used backup blade. Get S30v or something equivalent if you plan on using the blade.

Nematocyst
February 9, 2010, 02:39 AM
Got it. Thanks. That's what I thought Hso meant, but wasn't sure.

hso
February 9, 2010, 06:11 AM
Nem, You got it.

Izzy77, Col. Applegate and other designers improved upon the Sykes-Fiarbairn design by abandoning the round grip and switching to oval or rectangular grips that allow the knife to be indexed by feel. It also makes for a stronger more stable grip since the knife without a round grip is less prone to rotate in the hand. Eikhorn switched to a rectangular grip on this blade shape as well.

Izzy77
February 9, 2010, 11:16 AM
" HSO wrote:
Izzy77, Col. Applegate and other designers improved upon the Sykes-Fiarbairn design by abandoning the round grip and switching to oval or rectangular grips that allow the knife to be indexed by feel. It also makes for a stronger more stable grip since the knife without a round grip is less prone to rotate in the hand. Eikhorn switched to a rectangular grip on this blade shape as well. "

I have one of the square handled ones form Eickhorn, and prefer the round ones...not such an improvement in my book.

The Boker Applegate is a decent STAINLESS ( for better and worse!) version with a square handle...if your really wanting a foil type grip on a thrusting weapon like a dirk ( a flawed approach IMHO) the BOKER is a decent knife.

I would think a design patent had more to do with a grip change than "twisting" ...hard to make money off a good knife when the cheaper sheffield firms make knockoffs for the rest of the world. Marketing is everything....

Either way the ribs on the "round" Handle of the Eickhorn hold my hand very well. It's thinner round grip fits my hand better YMMV.

Ha Ha Cant believe I found this old article, Cooper Lives!

" Handgunner: I take it you are referring to the classic argument of which is more effective, a thrust or a cut. Flavius Vegetus Renetus wrote that the leaders of the Imperial Roman Legions had discovered in battle that the enemy was felled quicker with a thrust than he was with a cut. This discovery was later confirmed by fencing master Giacomo DiGrassi in the late 16th century-- about the same era of Pizzaro-- when pointed swords and pointed daggers with dull edges were the norm.

JC: Further support of this theory is demonstrated in the Battle of Balaclava where the sabers of the cavalry had little or no effect through heavy clothing.

Handgunner: Chopping is just not as effective.

JC: One of the most respected steel weapons is that of the Gurkhas called a Kukri. A Gurkha's discipline, courage and sense of humor are unsurpassed. As for their weapon, the Kukri, it can, with a lot of effort, behead a calf for ceremonial purposes on New Years Day. ( IZZY77 Comment, only with large ceremonial sword like Kukri's)

Handgunner: Have you ever stabbed anyone?

JC: No. When you have unlimited ammo, you have no need for a knife."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533210/

shockwave
February 9, 2010, 11:39 AM
In many cultures, a popular counter knife move is to grab the SPINE on the knife, or to sandwich it in two hands [V] ( [ = a hand, V = the knife) an twist it out of the hand of the knife wielder. The longer the blade and wider the flats ( sides) the easier it is to leverage out of your hand.

The reason a knife can be such an effective weapon is that it can be extremely difficult to disarm an assailant who has one. Grabbing at the knife is a great way to get your hand sliced. The Japanese sai and the jutte are interesting tools because they both have features intended to snag a blade and disarm the wielder.

In actual practice, one discovers that they don't work well for that purpose - rather, they allow for a block and perhaps a chance to close in. Also, the general commando style of knife use that boot knives are designed for is, arguably, sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them, not a frontal assault.

Izzy77
February 9, 2010, 11:40 AM
Did a quick test with my Eickhorn Round handle...

put blade in between a wooden desk and drawer, leaned on the drawer with force...was able to pry open drawer by twisting the blade, no slippage. AL handle left temporary stripe marks on hand...this is one secure knife. :what:


I'm now convinced "new and Improved" square handles was a marketing and design patent ploy. The New Eickhorn handles are cheaper to make as they are plastic old style M16 handles ( at least the one I have).

Izzy77
February 9, 2010, 11:50 AM
Shockwave Wrote:
"The reason a knife can be such an effective weapon is that it can be extremely difficult to disarm an assailant who has one. Grabbing at the knife is a great way to get your hand sliced. "

Okay, well I personally know of someone who was attacked by a mob and disarmed in the way I described. He had a RANDALL 7 inch blade. And it was sharp, no assailants were cut. His neighbors and his G-D had to save him. His was big fellow and muscular to boot. ( multiple attackers)

again, you don't close your hands on the blade....OPEN PALMS.

Nematocyst
February 9, 2010, 12:39 PM
If you have a problem with small handles, you better handle a Kershaw MBK before you buy it. I like mine, but the handle is pretty narrow.P35, good point. Let me clarify.

It wasn't the narrowness of the Gerber that I didn't like. It was the length; it was just too short.

It had the same feeling to me as the stock grips on my airweight snub nose, those little two-finger grips that allow one to pocket carry, but at the expense of a good, firm grip that I want to control +p rnds. Since I don't pocket carry that gun (it's in an OWB), I replaced those stock grips with Hogue monogrips that allow a full grip.

That was that feeling I had with the Guardian: just not enough handle to hold onto.

I've been thinking about the narrowness of the Kershaw, and especially in light of Hso's point about grip shape (#71). The Kershaw appears to be just a bit too "rounded", but - and I'm going out on a limb here - I'm wondering if it could be modified by a craftsperson. I've been dreaming of all manner of ways to make it larger, more substantial. If I work up enough nerve, maybe I'll discuss them here later. :uhoh:

:rolleyes:

hso
February 9, 2010, 01:55 PM
I'm now convinced "new and Improved" square handles was a marketing and design patent ploy.

You'd be incorrect. The Applegate-Farbairne was designed before such issues were germane. Subsequent models might fit into the box, but that's doubtful as well since a round handle isn't patentable and there aren't any patent ploys out there using a traditional scale on tang design since it would constitute prior art and wouldn't receive a patent. Round handles would be cheaper to produce since they could be churned out like the S-F and could be put over a rat-tail tang and peen or thread locked cheaply. Scales may be less expensive to produce (if you're talking about S-F brass or bronze cast grips), but the S-F would be cheaper to attach. About a wash on cost of grip on the two approaches. About the only round handled modern boot knife or dagger is the Sykes-Fairbairn, the S-F "inspired" knives, and this Eikhorn.

The history of the A-F starts with the S-F and it's well known deficiencies, fragile tip, fragile blade, small grip, indexing the grip, soft tang, etc., but the S-F became iconic amongst small daggers. Col. Applegate and Leutenant-Col. Fairbairn developed their earliest design in 1943 as an outgrowth of the lessons learned on the S-F and it's use. Prototypes made for Col. Applegate at Camp Richie and then Randall in Orlando in 1944 started to refine the original idea for a stronger knife. Another prototype supposed to have been made by Al Buck in 1952 further refined the design. Col Applegate worked with Barry Wood in developing prototypes in the late '70s where different handle materials were tried and the design nearly reached it's final stage. Col Applegate first proposed having it made as a custom knife for sale in 1980 and T. J. Yancey subsequently made them in 154-CM. Bill Harsey took over making the custom knives in 1986 while the first mass-market production was by the Al Mar company in A6 steel in 1987. The A-F had it's own design flaw in having used a partial tang that didn't run the whole length of the handle and the ambitious feature of having the handle be removable so the user could move lead weights in the handle to "tune" the balance of the knife. AL Mar abandoned the synthetic "tunable" handle for permanently riveted laminated wood. Col Applegate was very opposed to the change in the handle, even though it brought an end to the breakage of the synthetic handle scales that had plagued the production model. Blackjack Knives took up production of the knife in 1984 two years after Al Mar's death. Blackjack used both 440A and A2 steel in the blades and discontinued the use of wood handles. The problem with breakage of the handles occurred with this version of the A-F and I remember Mike Stewart complaining about the Col. "insisting on those damn plastic handles". When Col. Applegate and Blackjack parted ways over royalty payments in 1996 the door opened for Gerber to produce the knife with a FRN handle material that wasn't subject to breakage. Boker got the design for the fixed blade in 1997 and currently makes the knife with FRN handle scales and a 440C blade. All that history on the evolution from the F-S to the A-F simply illustrates the very early, non-commercial, abandonment of the ribbed round handle and the rat-tail tang.

Izzy77
February 9, 2010, 02:44 PM
HSO,

How sure are you that the re-design was not able to fetch a royalty ( PATENT) if Applegate was collecting on payments form a different model in 1996. ( per the information you provide) ????

Marketing ( royalties /patents) was part of the game. And nothing wrong with that either.

My point is the original model was not patentable ( as you say as well) so if Applegate wanted ROYALTIES ( like he got from AL MAR, and I'm sure Boker) then a re-design would be needed.

I don't want you to waste your time trying to prove a negative...I just don't think that everything I read is true ( unless it came from the PTO ;)) and their has been substantial marketing since 1987 ( per your information) so many sources are suspect IMHO.



I have medium to small hands, and the round handle works wonders for me. Maybe with bigger hands it would be "too small". But then again a bigger handle would be easier to disarm from ME...average size of humans has increased in the last 100 years. The Eickhorn is not peened, uses a hefty pommel nut on a sturdy screw. The tip is not fragile on this model, of that I am sure...

In any case I am pretty sure the F-S was designed with a FOIL grip ( round yes! ;)) and vase like as an original design feature, not to speed production...

My PTO search skills led me to D399113 is the patent referenced to Applegate, but I could not open that patent. ( before 1975?)

ArfinGreebly
February 9, 2010, 02:50 PM
Izzy, you might want to contemplate the text you wrote in post #74 in contrast with what you wrote in post #75.

You might discover just a tiny bit of irony there.

hso
February 9, 2010, 02:56 PM
Knives are designed all the time that royalties are paid by companies to the designer for and no patents are involved.

Jim Hammond, Darrell Ralph, Ed Haligan, Ken Onion and Blackie Collins and numerous others all have designs in current production by mass market manufacturers without having patents involved. Look at any of the "custom-collaborations" and you'll find the majority of them don't involve patents. Ken and Blackie have patents on knives as well. Where a patent is involved the designer makes more money, a lot more money, but the good companies pay royalties to good designers for good designs and the right to market on the designer's name whether a patent is involved or not.

The only knife patent that Col. Applegate received is D373,521 for the folding A-F. He does have that boat patent 3023331 from his days in Mexico, but no other patents that I'm aware of or that I could find. 1943 to his death and no patents in spite of being paid royalties for the A-F, the Smatchet and the folding A-Fs.

The D399113 patent you refer to (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D399113.pdf) is a 1998 patent and isn't assigned to Col. Applegate. The inventor is listed as Shiraz Balolia of Bellingham, Washington and the assignee is Gutman Cutler. Col. Applegate is listed, along with numerous others like Spyderco and Gerber, in the patents referenced section. The 373,521 patent on the A-F folder is what's being referenced.

I get a kick every time I remember him asking me, of all people, if the compact A-F folder would sell and his disbelief when I told him it would outsell the bigger knife because it could be carried by more folks with it's just shy of 4" blade. He gave one to me and autographed the box at the next Blade show when it was obvious I had guessed correctly and we had a good laugh about it. That was the last time I spoke with him. Wished I'd spent a lot more time talking with him.

shockwave
February 9, 2010, 03:05 PM
Okay, well I personally know of someone who was attacked by a mob and disarmed in the way I described.

There may be a clue to this in your words, "by a mob." That would suggest to me that he was slashing and stabbing, but holding the knife out in front of him. Maybe brandishing it in some fashion. My remarks presumed a single engagement with a person attacking full-on. This is quite easy to verify yourself in a training setting.

moxie
February 9, 2010, 03:44 PM
To me, the iconic boot knives/daggers are the Gerber Mark I and the Guardian. The size, shape and construction are nearly perfect. Anything close to these "standards" is good, IMO. Regarding the purpose of such knives when you can have a backup gun instead, I offer the following. They are not instead of another gun, they are in addition to one. If you are down to your backup gun and you're out of ammo or have a malfunction, a sharp pointy knife can be handy. If you are on the ground because you are wounded or have a bad guy kneeling on your chest and your gun was knocked out of your hand, a sharp pointy knife in your boot or tucked away in some other handy place can be... handy. Your choice. Depends as always on your perception of the threat and how much time, money, and effort you want to expend to prepare for that threat.

Izzy77
February 9, 2010, 11:53 PM
Arfingreebly Wrote:
Izzy, you might want to contemplate the text you wrote in post #74 in contrast with what you wrote in post #75.

You might discover just a tiny bit of irony there.



Main Entry: iro·ny
Pronunciation: \ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural iro·nies
Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirōnia, from eirōn dissembler
Date: 1502

1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony
2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also dramatic irony, tragic irony
synonyms see wit


Ok so inform me of the supposed Irony.

( IF you're referring to the tight grip of the round S-F, in post 74; vs. the ability to take two open hands and pry away a longer bladed knife esp. a single edge, in post 75...then I fail to see any irony)

Izzy77
February 10, 2010, 12:04 AM
Shockwave wrote:

There may be a clue to this in your words, "by a mob.".....my remarks presumed a single engagement with a person attacking full-on. This is quite easy to verify yourself in a training setting.

Quite possibly.

From what I was told by the individual in question, and backed up by the people who live there, he just drew it out in self defense and was jumped on by two individuals, one of whom used two open palms to wrestle the knife away from him.

The rest of the story is irrelevant, but I appreciate the fact that you have been gracious about that. The whole incident shook me into thinking differently about blades with large "flats" or long blades that are single edges in general.

Also keep in mind the assailants were agricultural workers who work with pointy rocks, thorns, and cement all day, so their hands /palms are thicker and more calloused than you and I...

Izzy77
February 10, 2010, 12:11 AM
HSO,

I'm impressed you knew the man. (Honest)

So if they don't use a design patent, on what do they collect royalties and protect their property? ( just the name, is it copyrighted or Trademarked???)

I'm sure if anybody could, you could clue me in on that.

ArfinGreebly
February 10, 2010, 02:22 AM
Ok so inform me of the supposed Irony.

In your post #74, you forward an argument that it is possible to maintain a firm grip on a knife against substantial twisting force. In this case, the knife has a round grip.

In your post #75, you affirm that a large, strong man (with, presumably, a better than average grip) has a large knife wrested from his grasp . . . by a manually applied twisting force.

The juxtaposition is ironic.


Yes, it is possible to maintain a good grip -- against a strong twisting force -- on a knife with a round handle. Yes, it is possible to take a knife away from a large, strong man, using only the twisting force that can be applied by bare hands.


Perhaps I have failed to understand something, or perhaps my reading of what you wrote falls short of full comprehension.

As it stands, though, it seems that you have contradictory propositions.

hso
February 10, 2010, 10:28 AM
Izzy77,

The practice for a good company, there are "bad" ones that use anyone's design without attribution or renumeration, is to work out a contract with a custom maker or designer to use a design of theirs. If they're using a design that they want to attribute for marketing purposes the contract will include using the design and the maker's name and likeness in marketing the mass-market version. If the maker/designer is just selling a design that they're not known for (Blackie Collins does this all the time) they'll just buy the design in some form (sometimes outright and at other times a license with time and use limitations) and make and market the product. Most makers/designers aren't patenting or trademarking their work. The manufacturers are working out specific contracts for specific designs with specific makers/designers.

Our own Fuad Acawi has a design that will be brought out by a major manufacturer. Fuad will keep making the custom versions of his knife and the manufacturer will produce a mass-market version.

As to knowing "famous" people in the knife world, I do. Some are acquaintances, some are buddies and some are good friends. Some makers that post here are good friends and they'll be internationally famous some day as their art and craftsmanship become wider recognized. Col. Applegate was an acquaintance that I would have liked to have had more time to get to know. It's amazing the people you get to meet in small communities. Kinda like here.

Izzy77
February 10, 2010, 01:14 PM
HSO,

Thank you for the elucidation. :)

So its a contract under most circumstances, and for most marketing applications.

Izzy77
February 10, 2010, 01:18 PM
Arfingreebly Wrote:
In your post #74, you forward an argument that it is possible to maintain a firm grip on a knife against substantial twisting force. In this case, the knife has a round grip.

In your post #75, you affirm that a large, strong man (with, presumably, a better than average grip) has a large knife wrested from his grasp . . . by a manually applied twisting force.

The juxtaposition is ironic.


Yes, it is possible to maintain a good grip -- against a strong twisting force -- on a knife with a round handle. Yes, it is possible to take a knife away from a large, strong man, using only the twisting force that can be applied by bare hands.


Perhaps I have failed to understand something, or perhaps my reading of what you wrote falls short of full comprehension.

As it stands, though, it seems that you have contradictory propositions.



No. In one case I was talking about large single edge blades. (Non-Retention by Leveraging force)

In the other case , ( Retention under twisting force) I was talking about Daggers, and short narrow single edge blades. The round handled knife is an good version of a S-F dagger.

Not irony by any definition.

mgregg85
February 11, 2010, 08:39 AM
I know I will probably be panned for this but I prefer a push dagger for a fighting knife. Yes, I know they aren't ideal for an experienced or trained knife fighter. My reasoning is that I have zero training/experience with knife fighting and I don't have the time or money to get any training. I know how to punch people, with the safe maker I from cold steel I think I would do about as good as I could in a knife fight if I ever had to get into one.

http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/coldsteel/images/cs12bs.jpg

The blade is 4.5" long and once I've drawn it it will be very hard to take away from me. The steel is AUS8A, nothing to write home about but then again its a rare moment when you will have to sharpen this knife and its very sharp right out of the box. Even a slashing strike will make a nice long wound on whatever it hits.

Another push dagger option would be the benchmade 175cbk but the steel is still crappy 440c and the handle sucks. Price remains about the same as the Safe Maker I.

JShirley
February 11, 2010, 10:11 AM
I prefer a push dagger for a fighting knife

The big problems with push daggers are legality (illegal in many places) and reach.

Izzy77
February 11, 2010, 10:18 AM
Nothing wrong with a pd where it's legal.

http://www.kopromed.com.pl/sklep/obrazki/49.jpg

shockwave
February 11, 2010, 10:26 AM
The big problems with push daggers are legality (illegal in many places) and reach.

With swords, reach is an issue. Knives are more up close and personal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XR9zYx4TLk). Strategically speaking, if you have one, you want to not let the other fellow know about it until it's in play.

Madcap_Magician
February 11, 2010, 10:27 AM
The blade is 4.5" long and once I've drawn it it will be very hard to take away from me. The steel is AUS8A, nothing to write home about but then again its a rare moment when you will have to sharpen this knife and its very sharp right out of the box. Even a slashing strike will make a nice long wound on whatever it hits.

Another push dagger option would be the benchmade 175cbk but the steel is still crappy 440c and the handle sucks. Price remains about the same as the Safe Maker I.

AUS8A is equivalent to 440B, which is actually a worse steel than 440C. 440C is a good stainless steel with good edge retention properties. It's not a super steel, and it's been around a long time, but the quality difference between properly heat-treated 440C and 440B or AUS8 is definitely there.

Nematocyst
February 11, 2010, 11:37 AM
I'm glad the idea of push daggers is now part of the discussion.

I agree that legality is an issue that should be considered, but then we've already agreed that this entire thread requires that we pay attention to legality. We're exploring options here, not making any recommendations about what people should or should not buy or carry. And again, speaking only for myself, I'm also considering options that could be of value in a future time when, um, lawful order has broken down (but again, we're not going to discuss the specifics of those circumstances in this thread, says the OP).

But we can discuss the utility of push daggers, pros and cons, etc.

I've looked at the push daggers from Cold Steel (http://www.coldsteel.com/samase.html) (though not a real one, only on the I'net).

But the Kopromed name is new to me. I've got their pages (http://www.kopromed.com.pl/sklep/en/produktLista.php?ParentGrupaID=1&GrupaID=1) open now, but I'm not finding that push knife. URL?

Madcap_Magician
February 11, 2010, 05:02 PM
Some push knives I really like are Mike Irie's customs. He makes single- and double-edged versions.

http://steeladdictionknives.com/store/index.php?cPath=93&osCsid=89360b5ff82270d18b45c3a27dd068e7

You have to scroll down to see some of them. I think they go for about $200.

seeker_two
February 11, 2010, 08:19 PM
If push-daggers were legal in Texas, I'd carry two...good for slashing and stabbing....

hso
February 11, 2010, 09:00 PM
Push daggers are designed for stabbing, not slashing. Their "advantage" is that they are stealthy, easy to use (just punch) and secure in the grip, if properly designed.

Their disadvantages are that they don't slash or draw cut worth a fig and are almost always short (the latter isn't much of a fault since they're intended to be concealed last ditch knives which by their nature are small).

Since most makers aren't actually serious about them being used the portion that fits between the fingers is often too square and too large making them not only uncomfortable, but actually difficult to use.

I'm not a Cold Steel fan, but they make very practical push daggers with good ergonomics.

JShirley
February 13, 2010, 10:36 AM
Well, shockwave, there are other problems too, but since the poster who asked about push daggers mentioned having no training, the other issues didn't matter for him, right?

A big problem is understanding what people mean by "fighting knife".

Combat knives are used by soldiers. They are tools that- under very rare circumstances may also be pressed into service for defense.
There are no knives especially useful for taking on someone else armed with a knife. If your opponent/attacker has a knife, you want something with reach, like a firearm or at least a stick...or rocks or anything else hurtful you can throw until you can escape or police arrive.

As far as the "ultimate knife fight", it's certainly not two idiots with a scarf in their teeth hacking at each other. An example of the "ultimate knife fight" is seen in the mediocre movie Soldier with Kurt Russell: a single, clean, powerful thrust to an armed enemy who is not aware, never aware.

I have heard at least one instructor say he didn't believe in teaching "knife fighting", only knife killing. Teaching two people to duel with knives is foolish and wasteful of time that could be better spent elsewhere.

John

xcgates
February 13, 2010, 10:47 AM
JShirley, knowing the abuse I heap on my little folding pocket knife, I'm thinking a primary concern for a combat knife would be toughness, both of the edge, and of the entire knife. I mean if I use my folder for everything from cutting to a screwdriver, scraper, prybar, etc, and I'm just piddling around my normal life, I can only imagine what a knife gets used for in wartime.

harmon rabb
February 13, 2010, 12:59 PM
your state laws on knives suck :o in florida, with a concealed weapons permit, you can carry any damn knife you want. switchblade, sword cane, dagger, doesn't matter.

hso
February 13, 2010, 01:44 PM
harmon rabb,

You don't need a CCW to carry a switchblade in FL. State law considers it a "common pocketknife".

hso
February 13, 2010, 01:48 PM
John,

There are no knives especially useful for taking on someone else armed with a knife.

Perhaps a bit of an overstatement since there are many knives especially made for taking on someone else armed with a knife. Not the best choice when stick, short sword, sword, spear of guns are available, sure, but they do exist and are highly developed for that purpose. The long daggers being the prime example.

JShirley
February 13, 2010, 07:52 PM
I didn't say that none have been designed for such a purpose.

hso
February 13, 2010, 08:02 PM
No, but there are plenty that are useful by comparison to the others that aren't designed for the purpose.

If I were using a knife against someone wielding a knife because that's what I had expediently at hand, there are some at my place that you've handled that are intended for that purpose and they would be far better than those you've handled here that are designed as tools instead of weapons. The stag Breed bowie comes immediately to mind vs the snakewood Galagher. Kim made that knife to be a fighter and put everything he knew about that purpose into it. Same for the one Gary made.

glockdriver
February 15, 2010, 12:20 AM
find yourself a Blackie Collins Ninja, small lightweight single edged dagger with an unsharpened false clip

DAVIDSDIVAD
February 15, 2010, 12:42 AM
I didn't say that none have been designed for such a purpose.

I was under the impression that Bujinkan taught techniques to disarm opponents with knives

JShirley
February 16, 2010, 01:57 PM
hso, I will agree that some knives would be more useful than others for that purpose...just as none of them will be nearly as useful as a weapon that enables delivering force to that would-be attacker while keeping them at distance.

DD, that's true. What do these techniques (usually variants of gyaku-te waza) have to do with knives designed to combat other knives or this thread?

DAVIDSDIVAD
February 16, 2010, 02:34 PM
that's true. What do these techniques (usually variants of gyaku-te waza) have to do with knives designed to combat other knives or this thread?


I was also under the impression that those bujinkan techniques employed the use of the tanto mune to disarm the opponent.

JShirley
February 16, 2010, 04:10 PM
Okay? Let me try to put this succinctly: I have trained with some of the best martial artists in the Bujinkan, including Bud Malmstrom. Feel free to ask Bud if he would prefer to take on someone armed with a knife while only using a knife. (Since I've heard his take on this many times, you can trust me, or try to contact Bud through his site (http://www.bujinkanatl.com/).) Kobudo systems teach a lot of techniques, including iado/battojutsu. If you found yourself "locked up" in a wrestling confrontation with an attacker, your knife might be useful, but it would make a lot more sense for you- in your 15th century Japanese battlefield gear- to just engage with your bow or spear before your adversary got within arm's reach of you. :rolleyes: (The historical record shows this was the preference as well.)

Now, if you want to start a thread about using knives to take on knife-wielders, go ahead. But stop hijacking this thread.

DAVIDSDIVAD
February 16, 2010, 07:47 PM
I figured that you'd agree with super magic kung fu dis-arms.

I mean, that is all Bujinkan is, anyway. People playing ninja.

See ya :)

hso
February 16, 2010, 08:42 PM
just as none of them will be nearly as useful as a weapon that enables delivering force to that would-be attacker while keeping them at distance.

Absolutely agree! I'd much rather use a cane or sticks against someone with a knife. I've earned my lumps being the one with the knife against the guy with the stick and handed out the lumps when we switched roles in classes. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nematocyst
February 18, 2010, 01:13 PM
Sorry I've been away. Was out of town last weekend (I'm delighted to say that it was a nearly magical experience in the wood with a loved one), and swamped at work since getting back.

I'm behind reading, but will get caught up on Friday or Saturday.

From a quick scan, looks like an interesting discussion has been continuing.

Right now, if I had to make a choice, I'd go with a Kershaw military boot knife for starters (others on the list for when cash flow improves), though I'm still intrigued by the SOG Pentagon Mini.

Nematocyst
April 21, 2010, 06:10 AM
I think I've pretty much decided on a SW boot knife (http://www.amazon.com/Smith-Wesson-SWHRT9B-Black-Knife/product-reviews/B000IXG44U/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending) for now.
Inexpensive at $20 or less, but I think it'll do for what I have in mind.
(It's not an edc, after all, but a back up. I've got better knives for edc.)

It has a 440C blade. In trying understand more of what that means,
I found this page (http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml) on steels. It's the best summary I've found of the plethora of steels.

Any opinions about it ("it" being mainly the page)?

Mp7
April 21, 2010, 07:26 AM
i have a 440C knife branded by SW.

Good quality for lil $. Heat treatment was very good with mine.
Nice blade.

7X57chilmau
April 21, 2010, 08:08 AM
That faq is good. Joe seems to know his stuff (one of the sharpening faqs at the top of this forum is also by him, and is thorough and well presented).

440C is a good every-day steel for such a knife. Better than needed for a boot knife, which will never be called upon to hold a razor edge thru hard work... It's just a last ditch slasher/poker.... If heat treated well, it should be able to do that though...

J

hso
April 21, 2010, 09:00 AM
I'm surprised that they used 440C for the blade material instead of something less expensive and easier to heat treat.

SlamFire1
April 21, 2010, 10:15 AM
Has anyone really tried carrying a fixed blade boot knife?

I tried over thirty years ago. Tried carrying a Morseth boot knife

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/knives/KnifebySheathbestpicMorsethBootKnif.jpg

I found a full length boot knife difficult to conceal, constantly prodding me in the side, I never attached it to a boot because I wore sneakers, and overall an inconvenient knife to carry concealed.

Instead of fighting dragons I used the knife to open boxes; it cut string wonderfully, but sheathing was troublesome.

I much prefer today’s lock blades. Light plastic handles, stainless blades, fold down to a short package, nice strong metal clips.

xcgates
April 21, 2010, 10:33 AM
I tried carrying one for a little while, and it wasn't too bad, with me wearing tall boots (think combat boots) and either loose cargo pants or jeans.

However, I did realize that I found my folding pocketknife much easier/convenient to use, and if I needed a knife, I'd still instinctively go for the one clipped in my pocket. I now have added a second knife clipped to the waist of my pants that I don't use just in case I really need that extra sharp blade, because my regular use one get used so much as a pry-bar/screwdriver it can no longer hold an edge.

Mp7
April 21, 2010, 11:00 AM
...hso, i´m greatly surprised by the blade quality of my SW Magnesium H.R.T,

for chinese crap, it´s pretty awesomely done.
Not good for a gift, but an excellent 15$ tool i ebayed.

shockwave
April 21, 2010, 12:44 PM
Hey now - my postman just dropped off an item for me...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r136/southerneditor/swtlite.jpg

Cold Steel Ti Lite 6". A nice compromise between a boot knife and a folder. The quality is outstanding - opened, there is zero play in the blade. The action is smooth and finishes with a nice "snick."

Nematocyst
April 21, 2010, 02:45 PM
I found a full length boot knife difficult to conceal, constantly prodding me in the side,
I never attached it to a boot because I wore sneakers, and overall an inconvenient knife to carry concealed.

However, I did realize that I found my folding pocketknife much easier/convenient to use,
and if I needed a knife, I'd still instinctively go for the one clipped in my pocket.I've been pondering those very things as I sort through this issue.

I, too, carry an edc folder (Benchmade Osborne) that's very handy.

Still, even though I can access and open it quickly, it's not a quick as a dagger might be, me thinks. Almost certainly, I would not carry a boot knife in my boot because I rarely wear boots, and when I do, they're not full sized combat boots, but mid-height work boots or hiking boots, and I can't really see anything inside them to be of comfort.

So, I'll need to find some other way to carry one, either on a lanyard on my neck,
a shoulder scabbard, or some kind of wrist scabbard are my top thoughts for now.

Still, I don't rule out a folder.

hso
April 21, 2010, 08:47 PM
I've carried both. You have to work out how to comfortably carry a fixed blade for yourself. The only way I've accomplished that is IWB at over the kidney or a little one in a neck sheath or hip pocket under a cover garment. Avoid baroque carry methods. Wrist carry isn't practical because a usable blade interferes with your day to day activities. Underarm carry can get your arm pinned to your chest as you're reaching for a knife. Some sort of centerline or waist carry is the most common because it is the most practical.

Yet, a folder is so convenient that I carry one of those instead of the faster/stronger fixed blade.

Nematocyst
April 22, 2010, 02:16 AM
^ Well, then, let's broaden the discussion a bit to include folders that act as substitutes for daggers and boot knives.

Think about all the things you like in one of those, and suggest a good folder that meets those criteria.

How about Shockwaves Cold Steel Ti?

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to use my folder for SD. Not enough guard on it. I'm afraid my hand would slip right over it if I hit a bone.

Part of the reason I like the SW boot knife is that it has a bit more guard on it, that little flair, and of course a more serious grip than my folder.

Talk to me.

hso
April 22, 2010, 08:00 AM
Guard's important, but they're often done for style than function. Many very effective fighting knife designs lacked anything we'd call a guard and did very well. Most of what you see today is done out of habit/tradition based on preventing a blade from sliding down your blade to the hand. Even then, they tend to be more than as needed.

So, don't worry too much about a guard being intended to keep you off the blade since all you need is a enough to keep you on the handle.

conw
April 22, 2010, 01:56 PM
Spyderco Civilian:
http://www.tuttocoltelli.it/mercatino_new/images/img_annunci/211005_01.jpg
Spyderco Endura 4:
http://www.rangermade.us/store/catalog/images/endura4.jpg
Kershaw Junkyard Dog 2:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21eGqVsLxfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
CS vaquero (available in 3,4,5, and 6" blades)
http://bekleidungskammer.de/images/21LVSC%20cold%20steel%20vaquero.jpg

I own all these except the Civilian and find them suitable for self-defense. The Civ is designed exclusively for self-defense and James Keating sells a training video on it that is reportedly wicked.

All of the blades are roughly the same length (4") which is a manageable/concealable size and not undersized for SD IMO. They also all have very nice grippy handles and good/usable opening systems. You can rig up a very serviceable imitation of the Emerson "wave opening system" in the spyderhole, at least in the Endura if not the Civilian, using 2 medium zip ties. Mine is 100% reliable using pants that are appropriately stiff (as opposed to ultralight gym shorts).

The other considerations are:
Are you going to EDC another blade for utility? It's not so hard, but I sometimes just want a nice big folder that will do double duty as long as it has a decent edge to begin with. Unless someone attacks me *while* I'm using the knife somehow, hard, for a task, I'll have it touched up with a DMT credit card stone after the task anyway. The endura are utility type knives that also make good enough SD knives, the Vaquero and Civilian really shouldn't be used for utility.

What blade profile? Do you want serrations? I like serrations because - IMO - a glancing blow will result in a more nasty wound with (potentially) psychological effects. Will equal pressure in a slice cut in most environments favor the PE or SE? Not sure, but I think the SE offers some special capacity to really catch tendons and ligaments and sever them more completely than a plain edge. Just my feelings on it really. On the other hand, the Civvie won't stab worth a darn; the vaquero would stab okay. The Junkyard Dog 2 has a nice spear point and a strong tip and a lot of heft. It also has nice balance (and G10 scales). The Endura 4 has a modified drop point that is nice and strong in the tip, too, and is easy to keep sharp and comes very sharp from the factory. The Endura and Vaq are a good deal lighter than the JYD2, which has advantages and disadvantages.

I said all the opening systems are good...but they ARE different. The hole is nice and easy and less likely to slip for me than a stud. The flipper system (and tip down carry) of the Kershaw are a different story. FYI, tip down is actually handier if you carry the knife concealed IWB (or anywhere above hip level I feel) and the flipper system really does work great.

All offer good lockup too. I feel the JYD2 is the strongest of them all based on construction and weight and feel, but I trust them all (again not a Civilian owner personally however).

If you carry a truly specialized SD tool or aren't confident to be able to resharpen a plain-edge multipurpose, you can grab a small utility fixed blade with a good sheath (I mean SMALL) like AG Russell hunter scalpel or the buck hartsook or the 440a version of it, and clip it to a belt loop. (about 1.25-1.5" blades on each of those). The Hartsook is a somewhat better steel but more unusual design; the HS comes with a slightly nicer sheath I think. For $5 more the Hartsook is a slightly better deal.

Hartsook in S30V
http://www.discountcutlery.net/media/BU860BK.jpg

Hunter Scalpel (bottom)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Bobthearch/knives/Deer_Bird_Scalpel.jpg

I haven't tried this one but it is another cool option. Light and multi-purpose but not an abuser...nice for SD I think, although not a very grippy handle by the looks of it. I would go with it over the Ti Lite, as it is more of a "user" if necessary, in a similar overall package.

Al mar eagle:

http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/almar/images/1005ubk2t.jpg

Finally, if you want to get the Hawkbill profile in a spyderco for cheaper than the Civilian - with or without serrations - you can go with a Spyderco Tasman Salt:

http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/spyderc/images/106syl.jpg

JShirley
April 22, 2010, 08:21 PM
In the past 12 years or so, I've carried a Spyderco Native more than anything else. Hell, I wrote a magazine article that suggested it was ideal for daily carry. I tend to believe that most people are likely to be most effective with the same knife they use on a daily basis.

If you subscribe to that theory or not, I got a Manix 2 Carpenter (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=457) a few days ago. Objectively, it's not that much larger than a Native, but it's enough to make it seem really BIG for a pocketknife! Whether you think you can get away with a knife like this for daily use, or keep it for dedicated defensive carry, the Manix 2 has a great, secure grip, efficient sturdy blade, and one of the very strongest blade locking systems ever made.

(Manix 2 Carpenter (http://newgraham.com/store/product/7255/Manix-2-HXP-PE/), Manix 2 S30V (http://newgraham.com/store/product/7109/Manix-2-Blue-PE/), or with less expensive but decent 154CM steel (http://newgraham.com/store/product/6503/Manix-2-PE/)- one of the great bargains in folders.)

Nematocyst
April 23, 2010, 03:29 AM
Conwict, you got my attention with the Civilian (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=60). I've been reading pages and watching videos about it all day (during breaks).

Here's one discussion about it on Spyderco forum (http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25001). Here's a THR thread about it (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=304495). There are tons of videos out there.

Very interesting alternative. I understand the difference between it and a dagger. This adds a new dimension to the discussion.

JShirley
April 23, 2010, 11:51 AM
The Civilian is a defensive knife for those who know nothing about knife fighting.

hso
April 23, 2010, 12:12 PM
Sal Glesser designed the Civilian specifically so that no more than 30 minutes worth of training would be required for a police officer to learn to use it to retain a weapon or force an attacker off of the officer. It has a very specific and narrow use.

Nematocyst
April 23, 2010, 03:00 PM
Very interesting. I hope to hear/read more about these knives.

In particular, what are those "very specific and narrow use"s?

I'm a fan of multiple tools in my box, as long as they're small.
Sometimes I want a hammer, sometimes a specialized tool.

Same for knives, it seems.

:)

7X57chilmau
April 23, 2010, 03:18 PM
The Citizen is designed exclusively to slash unarmoured flesh. Its blade profile is optimized for this, with a very thin, raked tip. Any more than the lightest utility use is likely to result in at least tip breakage. The rake also makes most general usage awkward, at least.

It's a single purpose tool. It does this one purpose probably a bit better than the average similar size utility folder, but has been rendered almost useless for the more common tasks you or I would have for a knife.

It is compromised to such an extent that the warranty excludes utility use.

That is telling.

J

Nematocyst
April 23, 2010, 04:22 PM
Makes sense.

And yeah, nearly every video I watched last night showed that little tag about warranty violations for utility use.

So, I guess this is my question, now: why would a person trained in knife fighting prefer a dagger over one of these?

Or, let's make that even more broad if you want: why would a person trained in knife fighting prefer a knife of any kind over one of these with a blade length the same as the civilian (4-1/8") for SD. (I'm not interested in utilitarian use in this question; just SD.)

I suspect it has to do with stab (thrust?), but just want to be sure.
From my lay grasshoppa perspective (says the revolver & stick guy),
slashing with the civilian would seem more effective.

As always, these threads turn into an education for me.

JShirley
April 24, 2010, 04:00 PM
If you have some experience with knives, you want to be able to stab. Slashes can get someone off you, but really only if they're not fully committed. The blade shape of the Civilian and Matriarch isn't as versatile as other blade shapes. I carried my Manix 2 today while I was out on foot in downtown DC. The only reliable way to stop someone with a knife involves inflicting massive damage to vital organs. I believe a very sturdy pointed blade like that Manix will do that more reliably than the weaker slashing blade of the Civilian.

Civilian pros: easy to use in slashing attacks with little training
Civilian cons: not versatile, weak blade tip, can't be legally carried in places that prohibit knives designed for offense or defense (like otherwise very accepting Georgia!)

shockwave
April 24, 2010, 04:32 PM
So, I guess this is my question, now: why would a person trained in knife fighting prefer a dagger over one of these?

If your main intent is slashing, then the karambit design is a powerful option. A non-serrated blade has less chance of snagging on clothing. The Civilian is making a lot of compromises to reach a single purpose strength. The 6" Ti Lite is virtually a short sword in the hand offering significant reach, with a blade that will go through almost anything. The lock and integral strength have been weight tested, and this demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQUZ4YAw8Dw) gives you an idea of the power of its slash, while this one shows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BBAAZgL_sg&feature=related) the force of the stabbing potential.

Oh no, the Ti Lite is a specialized tool that has its own compromises, and the 4" model may be better for EDC, but either would, I contend, be superior in combat to the Civilian and offer an almost indestructible blade. Also, it offers at least 3 different opening methods, making deployment easy and very fast. In fact, I may pick up a 4" as well. I train in knife fighting and this and the karambit are both logical choices. You can split the differences with a Bowie-type blade or Ka-Bar and a lot of people do that.

In actual daily carry, I usually pocket a small side-opening auto, but I'm working on changing my EDC package to up my firepower.

Nematocyst
April 24, 2010, 06:05 PM
John and Shock, thanks for that. I'm learning.

You've also both convinced me to take a closer look at your respective suggestions, the Manix 2 and the Ti Lite. Both are impressive.

I've also been looking at tons of articles today on Karambits - admittedly not daggers, but might qualify as the same concept as a boot knife (last ditch).

I've been especially looking at and reading about Emerson Combat Karambit (and his training videos) along with Steve Tarini's stuff, just trying to understand the concepts of 'karambit'. I'm starting to get it, and coming to understand more about the origins of the civilian, also (which I'm leaving behind at this point).

This is such an interesting learning experience. Now, I want two knives, one of which is a karambit (even if I don't use it, I still want one). That little Emerson really catches my eye.

I'll confess that right now, the Manix 2 has my attention the strongest, even though I still can't say why.

hso
April 24, 2010, 09:02 PM
The only reliable way to stop someone with a knife involves inflicting massive damage to vital organs.

John,

There's a whole other school of thought that opines that the only reliable way to stop someone with a knife if through biomechanical destruction of the limbs by severing muscle, ligament and tendon.

The arguments between the two views of using a knife to stop a fight are endless and without real world controlled testing there's no way to settle the arguments.

Suffice it to say that a knife design so specialized that it only permits one form of attack/defense is probably too limited for general self defense purposes.

Nematocyst
April 25, 2010, 12:06 AM
Suffice it to say that a knife design so specialized that it only permits
one form of attack/defense is probably too limited for general self defense purposes. Ahh, now we're getting down to brass tacks ... er, steel blades.

conw
April 25, 2010, 02:55 PM
Cost aside I would probably avoid a Civilian for the reasons above, BUT I appreciate all the informed input and that's exactly why I offered it as another thing on the table for Nemato.

The Vaquero really isn't a bad compromise if you like the "fast and dirty" side of the Civilian and I bet you could make Keating's Civilian training video work with it. Plus it has a more conventional and stronger, less compromising blade structure, that is certainly suitable for stabs.

Now, as for the Ti Lite...did you have a good look at that Al Mar "Eagle?" The TI Lite has like no belly whatsoever...it gives up slashing just like the civilian gives up stabbing. Yes the Eagle is more expensive than the Ti Lite but it is much more versatile with its blade shape, more friendly to the average eye, and just a hell of a lot better design for SD or utility IMO. It is pricier but I think it's worth it over the TL.

http://kis.net/0010/amksereflaconnew.jpg

If you favor the "light utility, or EDC suitable for self-defense" aka what some people now call "Gentleman's tactical"...I would put the Al Mar and the Cold Steel into this category...the Spyderco Stretch is just beautiful and has similar specs to both of the above.

(carbon fiber scales pictured...)

http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/spyderc/images/90cfpe.jpg

It's almost unfair of me to make your head spin, but here is another medium/light utility EDC that will be a pleasure to carry, and should work for SD. the Boker Exskelibur, maybe now the best deal for $50? I am strongly considering getting one :) Milled G10 handles, 440c steel, full hollow grind.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/michaelmcgo/DSC00175.jpg

Nematocyst
April 25, 2010, 04:13 PM
Conwict, good points. Thanks.

I hadn't looked yet at the Al Mar (thanks for the ping), but just did. Great looking knife, but I don't like the handle. I want something with some finger contouring (not sure what to call that, but a nonlinear surface where your fingers wrap under to improve grip).

The Spyderco Stretch is closer. (I'm starting to take a liking to Spydies in general ... never owned one, yet).

But that raises a question for me that I'd like an opinion about from all.

For years, my EDC has been a Benchmade Osborne. Love it. Sharp, holds an edge, handles well (for me). I've even been glad to have it in my pocket when walking in sketchy places at night. (Yeah, I do my best not to, but sometimes it just happens.)

It's a 3.5" blade, overall length just an 1/8 under 8".

But I've never felt like the blade is ... long enough? stout enough? wide enough? thick enough? for real SD.

And worse, I feel that while the handle is sufficient for utility use, it feels inadequate if I needed to use it for a weapon. I want more bulk in my hand for fighting, something more to hang onto.

But now that I'm back down to looking at EDC type folder knives with shorter blades, am I being foolish or extravagant when thinking about getting another EDC that I can potentially use for SD?

Or, in other words, would you recommend that I replace my Osborne with, say, a Manix II, or is that just silly?

Are there features on other folders that make them a better candidate for SD backup than my Osborne?

Nem

PS added by edit: I need to go back to the beginning of this thread and reread it, to review what's been said already.
I'm finding that as my thoughts evolve from fixed blade dagger to folding EDC/SD combo, my parameters are changing.

conw
April 25, 2010, 07:07 PM
Well, you kind of have to evaluate your own needs, there. If the goal is (as JShirley recommends) to have one folder you are familiar with, and both comfortable with and able to use for SD, that you carry every day as a BACKUP to a better weapon, the Osborne should be ok. Past that your "needs" to me are a bit elusive. If you want a *better* SD type knife, sure, bigger is better...grippier is better...to an extent balanced right for SD and heavier is better. But that may be illegal, impractical, or otherwise limiting and you may not carry it every day...Jshirley may or may not be right about being intimately familiar, through EDC as well as training, with your knife...but if you aren't carrying it every day (much like a gun) chances of it being useful at all are slimmer.

My recommendation is to buy some of the Keating videos and if you are still interested in blade art for SD or even fun (hey, acquiring knowledge and skill sets is fun) take some classes. Maybe spend that money before getting another blade?

On the other hand, if you want a fun toy and to pursue a casual interest in blade fighting for your own reasons (don't let the serious Susans and Negative Nancies call you a mall ninja...I do think there is way too much BS surrounding knife fighting, and a lot of misguided people who do not prioritize more effective forms of SD, but like I said if it's fun for you go for it and don't take yourself too seriously) snap up whatever blade suits your fancy :)

You might even make a fun hobby out of buying a $50-100 knife as often as your budget allows, testing them for different uses, keeping keepers and trading those that aren't to your taste...perhaps while casually buying some videos/taking some classes, too...I know that every time I handle a new blade my tastes mature and I know more about what *I* need all-around or for a given task :)

JShirley
April 25, 2010, 07:23 PM
Nem,

In your shoes, I would look for a sturdy one-handed folder with a blade between 3 and 4". I'll freely admit I'm partial to Spyderco's offerings, because they offer well-designed blades at very fair prices, with great business ethics. Some Spydies I might suggest for a dedicated SD blade would be:

Spyderco Chinook 3 (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=250) (a massive knife that still has a less than 4" blade: if I had to defend myself, and was limited to a folding knife, this would be it- hard to pass as "just a pocketknife", though)
Manix (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=165)
Para-Military (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=331)
Endura G10 (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=302)

Of course, the Manix 2 I've mentioned, and the surprisingly capable little Salsa (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=30), with the extremely strong compression lock.

I'm giving links to Spyderco, so you can see more information, but I usually purchase from NewGraham.com. I've listed G10 models almost exclusively, because G10 is so strong, but the knife I've carried most is the FRN Native (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=20). It's a great daily carry piece, small enough to be convenient, but large enough to be useful. Listen to people you respect, think about your most probable mission for the knife, and have fun. :) The journey's the important thing.

John

Nematocyst
April 25, 2010, 07:29 PM
Past that your "needs" to me are a bit elusive. Hey, that's at least two of us. :D

I'm still trying to evaluate what my needs are, and - as always - distinguish them from wants.

I always begin threads like this with one perspective of what my needs (and wants) are, but then they evolve as I learn more. (Hey, kinda like life!)

Questions and perspectives like yours are valuable in that process, and I thank you for them.

I'll ponder them a bit, then read more (that I'm betting will show up soon),
then offer a few responses about what I perceive my current needs are.

I still can't pin them down 'xactly - that'll take a bit more time -
but I feel like I'm starting to close in on them.

Nem

Nematocyst
April 25, 2010, 07:35 PM
Listen to people you respect, think about your most probable mission for the knife, and have fun. :) The journey's the important thing.Great advice, John. I agree on all counts.

Thanks very much for your Spyderco recs and links. I'm eager to check them out, and no doubt will over or after dinner tonight.
You've really got my attention w/ the Spydies (in part because I know you know knives well).

But right now, it's 4:30 pm on a beautiful spring afternoon,
so i'm gonna put on my "day pack" and go for a long walk while I think about all this.

conw
April 25, 2010, 07:59 PM
Thanks Nem, it's easy to type a lot when someone is as receptive as you are. I remember getting into knives, guns, etc, as both hobby and necessity I really profited reading diverse opinions on threads like this. Thanks for starting a good thread! (edit, not saying you are "just getting into"...was more implying that this thread will be a good info-source for posterity, ha ha.)

John, I didn't know the Manix 2 was that cheap..darn you...no, mustn't,...aagh.

JShirley
April 25, 2010, 10:40 PM
Yeah, the basic Manix 2 is an incredible bargain for a large US-made knife with G10 scales and practically unbreakable lock.

Nem, hope the walk was pleasant.

hso
April 25, 2010, 11:15 PM
I wouldn't be unhappy with a Manix.

Nematocyst
April 26, 2010, 12:07 AM
Thanks for starting a good thread! Thanks for adding good things to it. :)

Nem, hope the walk was pleasant. Thanks, John. It was awesome. Three hours to the river and back.

Once I get to the river, in the wooded trails along the bank, I pull my Sog Seal Pup out of its nest in my pack and drop it into my lower left side pocket of my Carhartts, where it rides at hand level just like in camp. (The Benchmade folder rides in my right pocket.)

Took the opportunity sitting by the river watching geese and mallards in a setting sun to sharpen it up a bit with the Arkansas stone that rides in the scabbard.

Such a fine utility knife. Not the best in its class, and some might scoff at it. But I really like it. Love the way it feels in my hand.

Then, to walk home, across the tracks, past the police substation and through the industrial back lots on the way to my studio, I had to tuck it away in the pack again. (I don't always remember, but glad I did today cause I had to walk right by a couple of police cars.)

proud2deviate
April 26, 2010, 12:19 AM
One of my Favorite Things. BenchMade 46, with a double edge Tom Krein regrind.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1467.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1484.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1495.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1511.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1529.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1462.jpg

And here's the knife before it was ground, with a Para Ord P13 barrel for scale (This shot shows the handles.)
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/barrel011.jpg

Nematocyst
April 26, 2010, 12:41 AM
Proud, that's amazing. What a beauty.

And I learned yet more in this thread today: I've never heard of a Balisong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balisong_%28knife%29) before. (Even though I now know that my Sog Tool is designed on the principle, even though it's got wirenose pliers in there rather than a blade ... well, yes there is a blade, but different ...).

Nematocyst
April 26, 2010, 03:35 AM
Thanks very much for your Spyderco recs and links.
I'm eager to check them out, and no doubt will over or after dinner tonight. Well, I've done my homework.

I not only checked them out, I studied them in detail.

The three that really stuck out: Chinook 3, Para-military & Manix 2.

Suffice to say for now - because it's late and I'm tired, ready to sleep -
the Manix 2 has my vote.

In getting to that conclusion, I read and watched youtube reviews,
learned about different knife grinds (http://backyardbushman.com/?page_id=13) (FFG, hollow, etc), finally understood
the concept of Bowie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife) (Chinook is a modification), and some other stuff.

But given the price, the size, the quality, the steel,
the shape of the blade - point, slash potential
(even if hollow, but my Sog SPE is hollow) -
the wide positive grips and gimps -
the Manix 2 gets the call.

conw
April 26, 2010, 04:58 AM
even if hollow

FYI Nema, hollow works great for slicing and slashing. I've noticed a lot of strange hype lately about different grinds. Spyderco fans in particular seem to have taken to acting like anything other than a full flat grind isn't worth carrying. Personally I find hollow grind, saber grind (w/ flat or hollow primary bevel), full flat grind, or shallow convex edge all have their advantages, but barely. Certainly not to the degree people on message boards are focusing on it this year. If anything HG should have a slight advantage over FFG of the same thickness for cutting, or a slight strength advantage over FFG of equal cutting ability. Saber grind is just a good all-around versatile choice that's nice and sturdy. And assuming we aren't discussing some kind of wacky unusual design, thickness (thinness) is still the most important factor in ease of slicing/cutting. Probably lots of people forget that FFGs are usually (not always) thinner overall, which alone could create the illusion that it is the FFG (rather than different/more optimal blade thickness) that is creating the advantage.

I do commend spyderco for having the best edges and angles out of the box in my somewhat limited experience. However, all the major formats are proven and all are fairly suitable for most tasks. Anyone who advises others to steer clear of a specific type of grind/format based on his own prejudice is just being ignorant and overly general.

hso
April 26, 2010, 10:52 AM
Nem,

You're not looking for an ax or bush knife so what's the concern about hollow grind?

Nematocyst
April 26, 2010, 01:31 PM
Ah, good. Thanks for the education about grinds.
Yes, I fell for the diatribes about HG that I was reading last weekend.
(Yes, yes, it's the Internet, so read with a large block of salt, etc.)

proud2deviate
April 26, 2010, 04:46 PM
Spyderco comparison shots.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1283.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1288.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/proud2deviate/DSCF1296.jpg
Top to bottom, Manix (discontinued,) Police 3, SS Police, SS Rookie (discontinued.)

The Manix is a chunk!

Nematocyst
April 26, 2010, 04:58 PM
Interesting. Nice to see side by side comparison of different grinds.

Thanks.

I'll confess I've never paid much attention to them, until now.

(Yes, I'm a grasshoppa ... )

proud2deviate
April 27, 2010, 01:26 AM
The grind is of little importance, IMOHO. The general user will find little difference between flat and spear/hollow grounds. In general, flat ground slices a little better, and looks a little prettier. The advantages of a hollow grind should not be discounted, though.

Nematocyst
April 29, 2010, 01:28 AM
I went to the main knife shop here today looking for Spydercos, hoping to see the Manix 2.
No luck. They've handled it before, but no longer.

I did get to handle a delica [sp?].

But they had a Benchmade Griptilian 550HG (http://www.benchmade.com/products/550HG) with the spyder hole.
Felt pretty good, appeals to me because of the axis lock
(which my Osborne has, so familiar feel) even if the handle feels a bit ...well, cheap. :scrutiny:

Can any of you officiandos contrast it with the Manix 2?
(John, I'm looking in your general direction.)

Thanks.

Nem

JShirley
April 29, 2010, 07:30 AM
I had a Griptillian once. I "sold" it to a fellow squadmate, who has yet to pay me. :rolleyes:

It's not a Spyderco, but it's a pretty good knife. I would expect it to be plenty strong, if not practically indestructible like the Manix series.

hso
April 29, 2010, 01:09 PM
Grippy is a tool primarily. You're looking for a weapon, primarily.

Nematocyst
April 29, 2010, 03:06 PM
That's interesting, Hso.

I don't doubt your characterization, but can you help me understand your reasoning?

Why is the "grippy" a tool and not a weapon. What is it lacking to be a weapon?

And do you see the Manix 2 the same way?

conw
April 29, 2010, 06:26 PM
I can't speak for HSO but I agree with him and my reasoning is that the griptilian is just not big enough or heavy enough to offer a particular advantage as a weapon. It's really not that large a knife. Smaller and way less hefty than the manix 2, since you asked.

The Highlander
April 29, 2010, 07:04 PM
The benchmade is a bit thin, the blade is on the small side, and I'd rather have a different handle material, or at least some additional means of retention (ie- finger grooves, thumb ramp, etc.) For a cheap sd blade I recommend the Spyderco Tenacious. While their blade lengths are similar, the Tenacious has a deeper, beefier blade, with moderately grippy G10 scales and large al beit light (due to skeletonizing) stainless steel liners. I've driven one of mine through some thick drywall and in spite of some serious abuse, none of mine had seen any tip/edge damage. The steel is pretty average (I'd put it around a good AUS-8 or 440C) but it takes a decent edge. There are superior offerings, but nothing close to it in terms of price. I wouldn't quite call it disposable per se, but at around $25-40, you get a great blade which can be replaced much more readily than a Sebenza or a Microtech. (or a grip)

hso
April 29, 2010, 07:15 PM
The modified sheepsfoot of the Griptilian puts the point out of line with the axis of the grip and therefore reduces the thrusting potential slightly. The straighter edge makes slashing less efficient than one with more curvature along entire edge.
http://www.knivesplus.com/media/BM-550HG.jpg

The point is more in line with the center line of the grip and the curvature of the edge makes slashing more efficient without the curvature being so great that the edge skates off of surfaces.
http://paulberetta.com/manix2s/images/manix2_19.jpg

Nematocyst
April 30, 2010, 12:59 AM
Great explanations, guys. Thanks.

Nematocyst
April 30, 2010, 01:44 AM
Highlander, that Tenacious indeed gets good reviews for a knife in its price range.

Boomm
April 30, 2010, 03:44 AM
I've been into knives, in general, for years.

Here is the conclusion that I have come to as far as self defense goes: If you stab somebody with a 4in blade, they are going to just as messed up as if you stab them with ANY other 4in blade. Doesn't matter if it is a tanto, dagger, bowie, drop point, screw driver, etc. The end result is the same. Regardless of the type of knife, they now have a 4in piece of steel slicing through their body.

Same thing goes for the type of steel. The exact same thing is going to happen of you stab them with a piece of S30V, 440C, VG-10, SK-5, scrap metal etc. No matter what you use, they are going to have a sharp piece of steel embedded in their body.

And price? You guessed it. A $50 blade will open a person up just like a $2000 blade will.

That being said, go with whatever you want! Get whatever appeals to you the most. If you like one style in particular, go for it!

Nematocyst
April 30, 2010, 04:15 AM
That being said, go with whatever you want!
Get whatever appeals to you the most.Thanks, Boomm.

I'm leaning towards the Manix 2.

I've learned from the posts above
what separates a tool from a weapon.

I've watched more videos about it.

One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ7cG6RgA9o). [FG]

Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT7oOlGi9gQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp). [HG]

More $?
Yep.

Worth it?
We'll see.

conw
April 30, 2010, 06:56 AM
I think you knife knuts sold *me* on a manix II, but I wanted to pass on a cool deal I found on this guy to you, Nematocyst:

http://www.knivesplus.com/media/KE-1725CB.jpg

This is the Junkyard Dog 2 I mentioned before, a version with a CPM-D2 edge. The G10 scales are well-executed and I would put it in the same class as the Manix 2. They have a lot of similarities. The JYD2 is 5/8" longer overall with about the same length blade as the Manix 2.

Anyway I don't stand to profit from this, but I thought you might be interested in this thread I found on Kershaw factory blemishes; a guy on bladeforums is selling the above knife for $45 shipped as opposed to the usual price of $80 plus once shipping is factored in.. According to reviews the blemishes are hardly noticeable or not at all noticeable in most cases...usually amounting to a scratch or nick.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602230

If this is in violation of any forum rules, please accept my apologies.

JShirley
April 30, 2010, 04:35 PM
Not a bad knife, but that's a liner lock, right? The Manix has a locking system several times as strong.

conw
April 30, 2010, 05:29 PM
Yeah, I have to say that the Manix probably takes the cake dollar for dollar due to the locking system (otherwise they are pretty much even, or down to preference e.g. in the case of the ergos).

Like I said you make a good point JS, but I'm not sure what you might have to do to get the JYD2 liner lock to fail. It is the thickest liner lock I've ever seen, with perfect fit. Someone who wants to try out different knives might really appreciate the $40ish savings over the Manix if they went with a blemished JYD2...heck, get both, you'd be right at $130 Nematocyst :)

EDIT:

This is just pedantry on my part really, but can anyone show me tests demonstrating where a well-executed liner lock failed? I'm genuinely interested. The reason I ask is not because I think you're wrong, John, but because I really am wondering if this is a realistic concern. The only liner lock I have is the JYD2, but I've never felt it was anything less than sturdy. What types of scenarios cause this locking mechanism to fail? Are any of them realistic use scenarios? Thanks...no need to indulge me unless you have extra time on your hands ;)

JShirley
April 30, 2010, 05:34 PM
Hey, it's a good price on what seems like a pretty decent knife. I've even considered getting one myself. :)



But then, I think, why? I'll just end up carrying a Spyderco again, eventually.

conw
April 30, 2010, 05:48 PM
Hah.

While I'm asking random questions, I keep seeing/hearing knife reviewers say "This G10 is really well executed, it shouldn't hurt your hands like most G10."
:scrutiny:

Seriously? Does anyone who carries big beefy knives trimmed in G10 have hands that are that girly?

Where are these people?
Psst...John...let's steal their knives!

Nematocyst
April 30, 2010, 07:14 PM
This is such a great discussion.

I appreciate the cordiality of the conversation.

I'm learning so much.

heck, get both, you'd be right at $130 Nematocyst :) Conwict, if that was an option, I would.

But I've got huge expenses coming up. (Closing my business, redesigning it for the road, changing the base of my operations this summer, etc.) So, I'll just be buying one ... at least for now.

I'm not really much of a "collector". As most will tell you, my goal is a minimalist toolkit (in part because I'm semi-nomadic and just don't want to haul a lot of stuff around).

But thanks for the thought! ;)

Nem

JShirley
April 30, 2010, 07:15 PM
My concern is more about tearing up pants and having a slowed presentation. Definitely a trade-off, and one of the reasons I prefer canvas micarta to G10.

But G10 is definitely strong and lightweight.

hso
April 30, 2010, 10:15 PM
G-10 rapidly eats fabric if it's not surface finished. Think, nearly as fast as abrasive paper. Even when surface finished it eats fabric, just not as quickly. OTOH a little bit of super glue, nail polish or other similar material on the G-10 right where the clip meets the composite helps prevent that.

Seriously? Does anyone who carries big beefy knives trimmed in G10 have hands that are that girly?


Yes

Where are these people?

One's in Eastern TN

Psst...John...let's steal their knives!

John's already been here, but you're welcome to pay me a visit.:evil:

conw
May 1, 2010, 01:16 PM
Point taken on the fabric. However, if I pay you a visit to get your knives I'd vastly prefer to do so in a non-thieving way, considering that of all the people in Eastern TN I potentially don't want to cross, you are close to the top of the list. And I don't really feel like making a thread in S&T asking whether someone in Eastern TN would hypothetically be justified in shooting a knife thief :uhoh:

Barring that I think your knives are all too expensive for me, so what say you to this: I take back the whole "girly" statement, and we do coffee? :)

Nematocyst
May 1, 2010, 01:30 PM
^ laughs

hso
May 1, 2010, 02:01 PM
I take back the whole "girly" statement, and we do coffee?

How 'bout you visit for a beer or whiskey and we'll go through the collection and play with some wood and rubber practice knives? Should burn up a weekend.

conw
May 1, 2010, 03:25 PM
Dude, I'm all for it! I have to hash out the specifics with you in the coming week or two because of some neat opportunities I am adjusting to, business-venture-wise, but I will be in touch. Actually I can keep track better if you don't mind just sending me an email, my user name at gmail. And if we can time it so john and/or other THR members are around, that'd be awesome too. I would love to meet the crew.

Thanks.

Nematocyst
May 1, 2010, 03:59 PM
Seems we've got a bit of community going here. This thread is starting to take on a "club" feel.
(Yes, I know some of you don't like "clubs", but work with me here.)

Too bad we can't rename the thread, "Daggers, boot knives & SD folders"
to reflect more completely what we're discussing in here.

Oh, wait, with all the mods and admins around,
I'll bet someone could do that. :cool:

As OP, you have my permission and encouragement. ;)

Nem

shockwave
May 1, 2010, 04:14 PM
This is just pedantry on my part really, but can anyone show me tests demonstrating where a well-executed liner lock failed?

I only have two knives that have liner locks, one is the S&W karambit that I got as a training tool (I'll replace it with an Emerson if I decide a karambit is worth carrying), and the CS Ti-Lite. The S&W liner lock is the classic type, where the entire inner metal liner of the knife swings over and locks the blade. The advantage to this style is that the knife can be opened and closed with one hand. I'm unclear as to the weaknesses. Liner locks have been in use since the 19th century - if this is a bad design, you'd think they would have retired it.

For sure, there are other, stronger locking systems, like the ball lock used in the Manix, but the usual forces on a single-edged knife are going to come from the blade direction. I've never experienced a knife lock failure. The Ti-Lite has a different kind of lock, which you can see here:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r136/southerneditor/swtilitelock.jpg

The testing videos you can youtube of this knife show people hanging around 200 lbs of swinging weight on the back of the blade and this lock holds up fine to that. I'd trust this lock with my fingers - in fact, it's a bit of effort to unlock it. With automatics and other one-handed openers, the usual concern I have is with the hinge and how the blade is mounted to the handle, not the locking mechanism.

The Highlander
May 4, 2010, 03:52 AM
Just realized there was a sprint run of the manix 2 with peel-ply cf scales and an S90v blade. I gotta find me one of those. As far as materials go that's pretty top of the line. (You may find sharpening S90 a bit difficult depending on your skill level)

As for G-10 eating up pants, I've found a few of my spydercos with milder texturing are actually quite gentle on my pants. (or at least gentler than my volcano frn handles) I'm sure pocket clip tension plays a big role in the wear and tear too. And I forget if it's been mentioned already (either by myself or someone else) but if you do end up with a spyderco, two trimmed zipties in the spyder hole make for an excellent bootleg wave opener.

Nematocyst
May 17, 2010, 10:51 PM
Well, I handled a Manix 2 tonight.

First tried out a SOG Aegis & Trident.
Didn't much like either for several reasons.

Then, the M2.

Love at first sight/touch.

Handled it for about 5 min.

I'm sold.

I'll own one soon as I can.

(Meaning, once cash flow improves just a bit more ...)

JShirley
May 18, 2010, 08:30 AM
Yeah, it's a good knife. I'm liking mine just fine. And unlike my former Chinook, I can actually reasonably fit it in a pocket! :D

Nematocyst
May 18, 2010, 03:42 PM
John, I'm guessing the Manix2 (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=418) fits your pocket better than the Chinook (3?) (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=250)
because of the shape difference than the length. I see the former is only 1/4" shorter, but narrower.

[Side note: it's interesting that the names are Chinook_3 but Manix2, with no space.
The latter is not search-able on Spyderco site as "Manix 2".]

Do you like the positive purchase on the Manix2 grip as well, or better?

I'm still trying to educate myself about blade shapes as well,
trying to sort out why some would prefer the Chinook over the Manix2, or vice versa.

Just taking a stab at it (pun intended :rolleyes: ),
I'd guess the Chinook might be better for slashing.

If anyone wants to help edumacate me on that, I'm reading.

JShirley
May 18, 2010, 05:41 PM
The Chinook, IMO, is "better", for defense, but not so much better that its much larger perceived bulk in the pocket can be offset. The Chinook, despite its minimal difference on paper, feels like a much larger knife in the hand. The handle shape has much to do with this. Glance at the pommel end on each, and you'll see what I mean.

The Manix 2 is a good, hand-filling size, but still small enough to be able to be carried on a regular or daily basis. The Chinook is an awesome knife, but I couldn't reasonably carry it without feeling like I had a brick in my pocket.

atomd
May 18, 2010, 05:46 PM
I had the original Manix and I have nothing but good things to say about it. Great knife. I regret trading it. The manix2 is quite a bit different...I like the original better myself.

Readyrod
May 21, 2010, 10:33 AM
Well folks thanks to this thread I got me a Kershaw boot knife. (from AG Edwards, great guys) I just got it tonight. It looks great and feels good.
I'm happy.
Not AG Edwards, AG Russel

pmeisel
May 22, 2010, 08:10 PM
AG Edwards ???? You mean AG Russell, right?

Readyrod
May 22, 2010, 08:25 PM
ooops. Yes AG Russel. Chalk that one up to the kids distracting me.

hso
May 22, 2010, 09:58 PM
Plenty of sharp pointy things, including daggers, at the gunshow in Kvile today from $20 to $2,000.

Nematocyst
May 22, 2010, 10:09 PM
^ I have trouble envisioning a sharp pointy thing worth $2K
outside something with gold inlay that a pharaoh or king owned. :scrutiny:

What were those?

Maverick223
May 22, 2010, 10:57 PM
I too am considering a fixed blade knife for a BUK (back up knife), but I am most concerned about the NC laws concerning the matter. I have read the entire thread (okay I may have skimmed over parts) and noticed that daggers are illegal in my state (according to Lee, who lives here, as well as looking at statutes online). What exactly constitutes a dagger, dirk, et cetera? I understand that a double edged blade would be illegal, and that a 5"+ blade could not be concealed, but what about a sub-5" fixed blade knife...could it legally be concealed per NC law? They make the law about as clear as mud...at least it is for myself. I'd be most gracious to anyone that could shed a bit of light on the matter.

I currently carry a Benchmade 943 or occasionally a Hen & Rooster stiletto (mostly the 943 for the added utility of the blade shape and partial serrations) but would like something that is a bit more stealthy and quick. I am thinking that it will end up riding IWB, but am open to any pertinent and legal suggestions for both carry style and blade. Budget is limited, but I am willing to spend about $100.00 if necessary. Blade material isn't an important factor, but SS is preferred.

:)

Nematocyst
May 22, 2010, 11:34 PM
^ Oh, man, I love new challenges in a thread like this,
especially from those hosting cool rimfire matches (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=520635). :)

Looking forward to learning some stuff about this blade length question
even if similar questions by me would apply to different states,
one northwestern, one northeastern.

Meanwhile, I'm about to have a cash flow increase this week.
Oh, happy day. I can begin to feel that Manix2 in my hand ...

TimboKhan
May 23, 2010, 01:02 AM
Why is the "grippy" a tool and not a weapon. What is it lacking to be a weapon?

Let me toss in my two cents on this question based entirely on the differences between my Griptilian and my Endura, and why those differences lead me to entirely agree with Hso on this point.

First, let me provide pictures of these two knives.

Griptilian 550 (http://www.milestactical.com/images/benchmade/griptillian/BM550HG.jpg)

Spyderco Endura (http://www.spyderco.com.ar/spyderco-endura-4/spyderco-endura-4.jpg)

I specifically like the Griptilian as a tool because of that blade style, which they refer to as a "modified sheepsfoot". In daily use, I find it quite handy, and I like it so much I bought a used mini-griptilian with that same blade shape off of the EDC forum. It's beefy, extraordinarily useful as a work knife, and I flat out love the AXIS lock.

On the other hand, look at the Endura. Let me use a technical term here: It's pointier. Still useful, but clearly it has the advantage over the Griptilian in terms of, you know, poking stuff.

If I had to get into a knife fight, and I was choosing either of these knives, I should think that 100% of the time I am choosing the Endura, simply because I can more easily penetrate with it. In terms of simple slashing, I would guess either would work, but I am still choosing the Endura. The other factor is that if I am going to knife-fight someone, I simply have more faith in the tried-and-true lockback than I do with the AXIS. This might be a completely unreasonable thing to say, but there it is.

Now, with that being said, I would not classify the Endura as just a weapon anymore than I would classify the Griptilian as just a tool. Certainly, bodily harm could be done by either just as easily as work could. I like them both, and I carry them both.

On a purely personal level, if I had to give up every single one of my knives except for one, I would keep the Endura. I own and will continue to acquire a variety of knives, but when it boils down to it, for my money the Endura is pretty much the cream of the crop. They are my Buck 110's, man. When I finally morph into a cantankerous old curmudgeon, I will be waving my Endura at those pesky kids with their ion-powered folding pocket katanas and will preach at them loudly and longly about how my 40 year old Endura pwns their faces.

Maverick223
May 23, 2010, 01:19 AM
Thanks for the plug, Nematocyst, but don't be callin' me northeastern, us Carolina boys (some call us Tarheels) might start takin' offence to talk like that. ;)

Nematocyst
May 23, 2010, 01:35 AM
^ Nix, nix, Mav. Not calling you northeastern.
It's me that's heading to the northeast.
That's why I said my similar questions
would apply to different states. ;)

Nematocyst
May 23, 2010, 01:38 AM
Let me use a technical term here: It's pointier. Still useful, but clearly it has the advantage over the Griptilian in terms of, you know, poking stuff.

....

I will be waving my Endura at those pesky kids with their ion-powered folding pocket katanas and will preach at them loudly and longly about how my 40 year old Endura pwns their faces. Nice post, Timbo. Worthy of a Saturday night in a thread about sharp, pointy things.

Maverick223
May 23, 2010, 01:51 AM
It's me that's heading to the northeast.
That's why I said my similar questions
would apply to different states.You know what they say about jumping to conclusions? :o

conw
May 24, 2010, 01:12 PM
Maverick, most of spyderco's larger offerings starting with the Endura cost-wise are just awesome. If you haven't owned one it's a great place to start your knife addiction even if it isn't your ultimate SD knife choice.

Maverick223
May 24, 2010, 01:38 PM
Thank you for the advice, conwict, however I am good on folders right now. What I am looking for is a moderate length, concealable, fixed SD knife, if it is legal (I believe it is ...but still not certain).

:)

JShirley
May 24, 2010, 01:50 PM
Maverick, when you consider the cost of the knife, you need to consider sheath, as well. A quality useful sheath is vital for a daily carried defensive fixed blade. If you buy a great knife, but it doesn't have a useable sheath, you'll have to spend another $40 or more on a good sheath.

Something to consider.

Maverick223
May 24, 2010, 02:10 PM
Good advice, I will certainly take that into consideration. I would like a good leather, or perhaps kydex sheath, that would be both durable and permit comfortable carry.

:)

Nematocyst
May 24, 2010, 06:28 PM
John et al,

A small pot of money just fell into my lap, so I'm going to order a Manix 2.

Is yours plain-edged (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Manix-Plain-Knife-Black/dp/B002ECY7XI) or serrated (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Manix-Serrated-Knife-Black/dp/B002ED2CES)?

Any recommendations?

I don't find the serrated on Spyderco's site, but it is being sold by online sellers.

My Benchmade Osborne is serrated. I've found it useful for some things
(cuts paracord really quickly, for example), but the Manix 2 is going to have a slightly different ... um, niche.

Also, any recommendations for online sellers that you like or dislike?
(I can get it in town, and like to support the locals when I can,
but the extra is way more than shipping.)

Thanks,

Nem

JShirley
May 24, 2010, 06:43 PM
Nem,

I like PE better than SE. Of course, a Sharpmaker easily sharpens either, but in general, I prefer PE for everything except lots of rope or other fibrous material-cutting. You can also choose a partially serrated version, if you want both worlds.

You can pay 50% more and get the S30V, but the basic 154CM (http://newgraham.com/store/product/6503/Manix-2-PE/)is a great knife. (I have the Carpenter version (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=457), but I only sprang for it because I got it lightly used, for barely more than the 154CM.)

J

Maverick223
May 24, 2010, 06:44 PM
Nematocyst, I am by no means an expert, but I favor a partially serrated blade when available. The serrations seem to come in handy for cutting string, twine, cordage, zip-ties, et cetera, but it also makes it more difficult to sharpen, which is why I prefer the partial serrations. There when you need it, but keeps the "working part" (near the tip) of the knife easy to sharpen. For a SD/emergency (could be needing to get to the knife quickly to cut a seatbelt, et cetera) knife, I don't believe fully serrated would be a mistake, but I wouldn't want a fully serrated EDC work knife.

:)

Nematocyst
May 24, 2010, 07:12 PM
Thanks, guys.

Yes, I should have specified that the ones available are partially serrated; only about half the blade serrated.

I wouldn't want a full serrated blade.

Maverick223
May 24, 2010, 07:27 PM
I wouldn't want a full serrated blade.I am pretty sure the one you linked to is FS (wrong photo), here (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Manix-Combination-Knife-Black/dp/B002GIOYVU) is the partially serrated "combo-edge" Manix 2 from the same vendor.

:)

Nematocyst
May 24, 2010, 09:47 PM
That's interesting, Mav.

When I click on your link, I get no photo.

When I click on this one (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Manix-Serrated-Knife-Black/dp/B002ED2CES) that I posted earlier as "serrrated", it looks to me to be half serrated. Here's a closeup (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B002ED2CES/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=3375251&s=sporting-goods).

Am I missing something? :confused:

Maverick223
May 24, 2010, 09:57 PM
Am I missing something?Nope, there is no photo. I think they mistakenly placed the PS (partially serrated) photo on the FS (fully serrated) knife, and left out the PS photo altogether. I did note that other vendors offered FS blades so I am reasonably certain this is the case, but who knows, they could have swapped the description or model no. instead, best to call prior to ordering to confirm (or choose a different retailer).

:)

Nematocyst
May 24, 2010, 10:08 PM
Oh, ok, I get it. Thanks for the heads up. Buyer beware.

Maverick223
May 24, 2010, 10:27 PM
After a bit of experimentation I have discovered that my old H&R (Hen & Rooster, not Harrington & Richardson) Stiletto fits perfectly when clipped IWB at 6:00 (center back), leaving it accessible, concealed (with untucked shirt), and comfortable (even when seated, which is surprising because I prefer a roughly 2:00 CC position for a handgun). Also the fact that it is a tip-down design makes me feel a great deal more secure about this method of carry. I doubt that I can find a fixed blade with a similarly svelte profile and that affords as much blade real estate, so I think I will stick with this until I find a better solution.

:)

Nematocyst
May 27, 2010, 06:52 AM
Ordered a Manix 2 from Rocky National via UPS ground.

Decided to go plain edge. Aesthetically it felt right,
even if my functional side said partial serration.

I'll update with pic when it gets here.

Nematocyst
May 29, 2010, 04:13 AM
Speaking of sticks (see sig line),
I found this Inosanto video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TtP4x-sRew&NR=1) tonight.

His teaching style is so fluid.
Notice how he demos strikes as he talks.
He's practiced enough that they're just second nature.

Like what his mentor, B Lee, did.

Nematocyst
May 29, 2010, 04:33 AM
Like what his mentor, B Lee, did.His sacrifice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWgGp2GuaJM&NR=1&feature=fvwp).

hso
May 29, 2010, 09:30 AM
Notice how he demos strikes as he talks.
He's practiced enough that they're just second nature.

Like what his mentor, B Lee, did.

Nem,

Any truly good martial artist should be able to do the same. You'd surprised at the folks you find practicing and teaching various arts who's movements are as natural to them as walking and talking is to us. I was shown nunchuka by a young man who was a waiter at a Chinese restaraunt I hung out at. He could do the same. The guy who taught me sticks looks like a halfwitted hillbilly, but he's blinding fast with two sticks (or knives) and can drawl on for hours about what technique is used for what attack or counter (of course he also cultivates the slow moving/talking/witted appearance to conceal his abilities). I'm sure you've met drummers who could do the same. They've incorporated the movements so into their natural movement that they don't think how to do what they're doing, the just think "do" and their body does it naturally. When they spar seriously or fight they devote all their attention to analyzing their opponent and playing the chess game as many moves forward as they possibly can so they can finish the fight as quickly as possible (and so they don't distract themselves underestimating their opponent and "luck").

Nematocyst
May 29, 2010, 03:54 PM
Any truly good martial artist should be able to do the same. You'd surprised at the folks you find practicing and teaching various arts who's movements are as natural to them as walking and talking is to us. Hso, as usual, we agree.

That's fundamentally what I was saying last night, even if in a more cryptically poetic way (hey, it was Friday night at about a beer past midnight): good students and especially masters can do what they do as second nature, intuitively, without thinking.

In fact, IMO, it's all about making it intuitive, making it second nature, letting it flow without thought. (Yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but just being clear.) Lee stresses that in his book Jeet Kune Do (which I'm reading slowly, in small bits at a time, letting his wisdom wash over me, seeing its relevance not just to martial arts but to life in general. I've also been watching videos about him, including this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59BMxK6Q6z0) from the History Channel's program How Bruce Lee Changed the World.

Watch the first 30 sec of it as an example of my last point: that JKD can apply to life in general. It certainly fits what I do professionally, and I'm trying to increasingly apply it to my personal life as well.

On a related note, so we don't get too far OT, I expect that Manix 2 to slide in here sometime early next week. My anticipation mounts ...

Nematocyst
June 3, 2010, 06:19 PM
... I expect that Manix 2 to slide in here sometime early next week. My anticipation mounts ... It's heee'ere.

First impressions:
Very, very nice knife.
Sharp as a razor rotb.
This was a good choice.

I'll offer more on the weekend.

JShirley
June 3, 2010, 07:38 PM
Glad you like it. Hope it serve you well.

Nematocyst
June 3, 2010, 07:56 PM
^ And a hearty thanks to you, John, for recommending it. :)

Maverick223
June 4, 2010, 12:16 AM
Glad you found a good knife, hope it serves you well...but hope you never have need of it save for cutting string.

:)

ArfinGreebly
June 4, 2010, 02:40 AM
. . . hope you never have need of it save for cutting string.

String? Surely you haven't forgotten the packing tape and cardboard boxes that hang out on the bad side of town.

What about vicious assault vegetables? The occasional feral London Broil?

And blister packs! Oh, the humanity! Only the bestest and most tactical of blades can survive that kind of punishment.



Nice choice, Nem. I'm officially envious.


ETA:
Heh! I got post .223 in the thread. I win something, I'm sure.

Stainz
June 4, 2010, 08:09 AM
Always late to a party... but here goes, anyway!

If you like knives with holes in the blades and Ti-framelocks, look for a leftover or used (Out of production now for a while!) Benchmade 630/635 - Skirmish/mini-Skirmish (S30V).

Now, you want a neat M4 bladed American Tanto-style blade with a Ti framelock? Their current 760BK L-Ti is nice. It does have holes in it - okay, they are in the handle, not the thumb-studded blade.

Another great one - Kershaw's JYDII - like the 1725CB mentioned earlier. Better still - the 1725SG2 - a Ti framelock with a laminated 'Super Gold 2' edge. Gone for a while, the K-guy mentioned earlier has a few 'blems' left of the SG2 variant - $79 delivered. They are, as all 'blems', delivered wrapped in bubblewrap - no box/papers/bag, etc - and bearing X X X X on the blade. I have a production and a blem - you can't tell the difference between them operationally - you can visually - the laminated border (SG2) is higher on one side than the other on the blem - centered on the production version. The blem is a deal - it's a great knife. Lighter than the other JYDIIs, it's in my pocket when I walk in the AM, the loud protection being left home (Hopefully, if the neighborhood attack mongrels go for my left arm, I can do an 'O.J.' on them with the right. Why folks have German Shepherds, Dobermans, and pit bulls - and let them run free in a residential subdivision - is beyond me.).

Nemo, you got a good one!

Stainz, believer in louder forms of self-protection!

Maverick223
June 4, 2010, 10:56 AM
String? Surely you haven't forgotten the packing tape and cardboard boxes that hang out on the bad side of town.

What about vicious assault vegetables? The occasional feral London Broil?

And blister packs! Oh, the humanity! Only the bestest and most tactical of blades can survive that kind of punishment.They make knives that'll work on blister packs...Wow, guess I can retire the old chainsaw. :p

Nematocyst
June 4, 2010, 12:17 PM
ETA:
Heh! I got post .223 in the thread. I win something, I'm sure.You win a Spyderco Manix 2!

Er, I mean box. I'll send you the box it came in.

Thanks for your input, Stainz. Always good to see you and read your advice.

May be a little late for me, but others will benefit.

Maverick223
June 4, 2010, 08:15 PM
You win a Spyderco Manix 2!

Er, I mean box. I'll send you the box it came in.Bummer, how come I never win anything...and I need a nice box...[grumble, grumble, grumble].

:)

Nematocyst
June 14, 2010, 01:33 AM
It's [Manix 2] heee'ere.

First impressions:
Very, very nice knife.
Sharp as a razor rotb.
This was a good choice.

I'll offer more on the weekend.My review is long overdue.

Got busy. (Closing a business, moving ...)

Suffice to say so far, one of the best knives I've ever owned.
Traded my Benchmade Osborne to pay off a debt. (Don't miss it.)

Have already become ambidextrous with it, opening it easily with both hands.

Also, this Manix 2 is the sharpest freaking blade I've ever owned. Have cut myself 3 times in 48 hours (didn't do that even once with the Benchmade in 4 years) simply by "touching" my skin with this blade. :eek: In two cases, took a long time to stop the bleeding (though not much blood loss, just little bleeders). Part of the problem is, I haven't yet adjusted to the new angles and depth of the blade. Cuts I used to make with the smaller Benchmade have more blade behind them, so I underestimate the cut, so to speak.

It's a razor with a sharp learning curve, but I'm learning quickly.

I hope I can learn to sharpen it well enough to maintain that edge.
(Yes, I know; see the sticky.)

My only concern so far (other than a fading fear of losing a finger): that G10 is likely to wear out my pants pocket. Probably going to have to put some epoxy on it under the clip to smooth it out.

hso
June 14, 2010, 09:28 AM
Basic knife safety says "cut away from yourself". :neener:

Nematocyst
June 14, 2010, 02:35 PM
^ laughs

Yeah, got that one when I was, like, maybe 4. Dad taught me. ;)

Two of three cuts happened as "nicks" while not really cutting anything, but switching hands after doing a cut. For example, after cutting open a plastic package (<rant on> whotf designs heavy plastic packaging with complex angles that requires such a sharp knife to get to the new product you just purchased :cuss: <rant off> ), I was switching hands with the knife while holding said package and got a little too close to the back of me finger with the blade tip (small slice, very clean; smooth edge cuts don't clot as quickly because blood clotting platelets (thrombocytes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platelet)) cling better to jagged edges).

The one time I was cutting "toward" myself was during a bad habit I picked up from my dad, also: one-handed harvesting vegetables = holding the knife cradled in 4 fingers with a plant stem (in this case, kale) between blade & thumb, breaking stem with thumb over blade, which cuts below thumb.

Always worked with the benchmade - never a cut - in part because it's a smaller knife - well, more slim, AND never wore an edge this sharp. It was sharp, but not like this quasi-razor.

With the M2, the blade was too big for it to work well, even with extra care.

Funny thing though: it only takes me once to learn a lesson involving me blood. :what:

:D

hso
June 14, 2010, 03:18 PM
I can't poke too much fun over self-inflicted knife wounds considering I've both cut and stabbed myself far more than once.:eek:

Heck, I've even cut myself badly with the non edge!:rolleyes:

Nematocyst
June 14, 2010, 04:22 PM
I just sliced a tomato for my lunch salad with my M2,
which is sharper by far than my paring knives
(which need some serious love on a stone).

Nice to see that the red juice on the blade was not mine for a change. :D

.45&TKD
June 14, 2010, 05:10 PM
How about the Cold Steel Kobun boot knife?

Nematocyst
June 17, 2010, 03:57 PM
In less than a week, the G-10 on my Manix 2 has nearly worn a hole in the top of my right pocket in a brand new pair of Carhartts. :eek:

Have moved it to one of the side-leg pockets for now until I decide how to resolve this.
Not sure pocket carry is going to be practical for this abrasive little beast.

hso
June 17, 2010, 04:47 PM
the G-10 on my Manix 2 has nearly worn a hole in the top of my right pocket

Yep, I warn folks about that all the time. Get a bottle of clear nail polish and schmear it on the G-10 where the clip contacts. Of course, make sure to put something under the clip to hold it off the nail polish/G-10.

JShirley
June 18, 2010, 02:49 AM
That's the one reason I generally prefer FRN or Micarta Spydercos to the G-10s...

shockwave
June 18, 2010, 08:55 AM
How about the Cold Steel Kobun boot knife?

Availability is an issue at the moment. I'm waiting for mine but it's been back ordered for several weeks. The Kobun has strengths and weaknesses - it is slim and light, so it is easy to carry. Its performance as an SD knife is likewise comprised by these characteristics. It is nearly identical in size and shape to the practice knives I train with in class, so it meets my needs as a carry fixed blade. I'd recommend it on the condition that it suits one's fighting style.

Nematocyst
June 29, 2010, 02:46 AM
New conclusion: G10 is an insidious fabric eating monster.

No matter what pocket I carry it in, a new hole appears quickly.

Still, I love the knife, and want to keep it. So, I solve the problem.

Get a bottle of clear nail polish and schmear it on the G-10 where the clip contacts.I bought black instead of clear.

I've now applied it to both sides to varying degrees.
On the fabric contact side, on both ends, but under the clip to half way down.
On the opposite side, I've coated the ends about a 1/4" in.

It ain't pretty - even if fractal & improv artistic - and resale will be nullified by it.

But it's going to be functional, and will no longer eat my trousers.

Images soon enough.

dougw47
November 16, 2010, 01:32 PM
I have 5 or 6 Spyderco knives, let's see...three Delica's, one Endura one Delica I got off of ebay that had the plastic clip ground off...it was an impound at a Miss. airport, don't know if they did it or the owner and one little stainless steel that I forget the name. I'll take a photo of it and I have several other knives, a benchmade, couple of Kershaw's assisted opening and a handfull of china knives that are assisted opening also.

Boot knives, I have a gerber and boker...gosh, I have a few Cold Steel knives, some neck knives and two tanto's...well, I have a lot of knives. I just ran across your pages here and will probably be posting from time to time.

This was in my box of folders...the easy to get to ones...

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j175/drwalker47/Knives/knivesfolders002.jpg

JShirley
November 16, 2010, 02:21 PM
Very nice.

This thread is pretty large, so if someone wants to talk about it more, let's start another.

John

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