Condition 0. 1911 vs. Striker fired.


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Straight Shooter
February 3, 2010, 01:22 PM
If someone was to state that they carry a 1911 in condition 0 they would be promptly chastised by the majority and told that they should always carry a 1911 in condition 1.

When discussing striker fired pistols most people consider a thumb safety useless and many if not most striker fired guns are sold without one including the XD which is SA (it’s optional on one model).

A modern pistol in good working order, 1911 or striker fired, is not going to discharge unless the trigger is pulled. Striker fired pistols don’t have a true DA pull, it’s only slightly heavier than a 1911.

So why the disconnect? Irrational fear by 1911 owners? Denial by striker fired pistol owners? Can’t have it both ways, it’s either safe or not.

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Avizpls
February 3, 2010, 01:52 PM
striker fires without a manual safety usually havea trigger safety of some sort as a min (glock) and maybe a grip safety too (Xd). If you choose to ignore manual safeties, a 1911 only has the grip safety.

If a glock had a manual safety, I'd use it. I dont have a glock because I am uncomfortable with the safety (this isnt up for debate. I know how it works, I know its safe for a lot of people, just not ME. knowhaimsayin?)

Another striker fired pistol, Taurus, have very heavy trigger pulls AND a manual safety. When I carried this....I did so with the manual safety off. The trigger was long and hard (oh baby) so I didnt wrry too much.

The glock is short and light. The 1911 is short and light (more so!) so to me, the difference is the manual safety.

So I personally caution against carrying a Glock, but if you do its OK. It has the trigger safety. But a 1911....if you arent using the manual safety its negligence.

Im SO not bashing glocks here....just using them as an extreme example of striker fired

edit to add

Can’t have it both ways, it’s either safe or not.

I guess to address this statement...I consider a striker fired pistol with ONLY the passive trigger safety to be unsafe just like I consider a 1911 in cond-0 to be unsafe.

rcmodel
February 3, 2010, 01:56 PM
The main differance is that the 1911 is truly cocked.
A Glock isn't cocked until you make it cocked by pulling the trigger.

A 1911 can have as light as a 2 1/2 - 3 pound trigger.
A Glock starts out stock at over 5 1/2 pounds.

rc

Straight Shooter
February 3, 2010, 02:04 PM
The main difference is that the 1911 is truly cocked.
A Glock isn't cocked until you make it cocked by pulling the trigger.
Yes, but simply pulling the trigger on both discharges them. Not trying to put words in your mouth but are you saying that the hammer on a 1911 can drop without pulling the trigger?

A 1911 can have as light as a 2 1/2 - 3 pound trigger.
A Glock starts out stock at over 5 1/2 pounds.
Not a very big difference.

Boats
February 3, 2010, 02:15 PM
The "additional safety" of a striker fired pistol without a grip safety or manual safety has often been called "a proper holster that covers the trigger guard."

You can stuff a cocked and locked Condition 1 1911 into your pants to answer the door and not worry about blasting your wedding tackle to hell.

I'd never do holsterless carry with a Glock or M&P.

So. the safetyless striker mode is "safe" within its operating parameters, which aren't as versatile as a pistol that can be manually safed.

A 1911 owner carrying Condition 0 or 2 is being irrational about Condition 1.

harmon rabb
February 3, 2010, 02:15 PM
The main differance is that the 1911 is truly cocked.
A Glock isn't cocked until you make it cocked by pulling the trigger.

a XD is fully cocked once you rack the slide. that's why it has both the trigger safety and the grip safety, imo.

in any event, glocks are very popular with law enforcement and have been for many years. as such, there are a huge number of glocks being carried chambered. if there was some AD epedemic, we'd have heard about it. instead, we just hear about plaxico burress. :o

rcmodel
February 3, 2010, 02:16 PM
Not a very big difference. Yes, there is a very big differance.
A 3 1/2 pound 1911 trigger feels very light and crisp with almost zero movement.
A 5 1/2 pound mushy Glock trigger makes your fingernail turn white before it breaks.

but are you saying that the hammer on a 1911 can drop without pulling the triggerYes.
A hard impact on the hammer spur could shear off the sear pin, or break the sear.

In either case, the safety interrupt notch on the hammer would not be caught by the sear.
The gun would fire.

That is why the thumb safety blocks the hammer mechanically from falling.
The grip safety only blocks the trigger bow from pushing the sear out of engagement with the hammer.
It has no effect on mechanical breakage from hammer impact.

rc

texas bulldog
February 3, 2010, 03:41 PM
in any event, glocks are very popular with law enforcement and have been for many years. as such, there are a huge number of glocks being carried chambered. if there was some AD epedemic, we'd have heard about it. instead, we just hear about plaxico burress.

are you serious? try googling "accidental discharge glock". google will actually finish the phrase for you before you even get through "discharge". from all my reading on this topic, both here and elsewhere, it would seem that ADs (NDs, really) are more common with glock that just about any other make/model. a simple search will reveal plenty of examples.

i'm not saying glocks can't be carried safely. but those who are prone to inattentive gun-handling (and unfortunately that describes far too many people) are much more likely to negligently discharge a glock than almost any other model. a "safety" on the trigger isn't much of a safety.

yes, i know...booger hook off bang switch. i'm well aware. but that doesn't seem to be enough for lots and lots of people. not just plaxico burress.

Straight Shooter
February 3, 2010, 03:42 PM
Yes, there is a very big differance.
A 3 1/2 pound 1911 trigger feels very light and crisp with almost zero movement.
A 5 1/2 pound mushy Glock trigger makes your fingernail turn white before it breaks.
We can agree to disagree if 2 lbs is a big difference but my original point was that neither compares to a true double action pull of about 10-12 lbs.

A hard impact on the hammer spur could shear off the sear pin, or break the sear.
Ok, this goes to the heart of my question. What would be the probability of this happening? Would simply dropping a 1911 on its hammer be enough to break the sear pin or sear? Is the probability high enough to necessitate carrying in condition 1?

Straight Shooter
February 3, 2010, 04:14 PM
You can stuff a cocked and locked Condition 1 1911 into your pants to answer the door and not worry about blasting your wedding tackle to hell.
I almost spit my drink out with this one :D

So. the safetyless striker mode is "safe" within its operating parameters, which aren't as versatile as a pistol that can be manually safed

I would have to agree with this.

rcmodel
February 3, 2010, 04:29 PM
Is the probability high enough to necessitate carrying in condition 1? Yes it is.

But I can see from your questions you have no firsthand knowledge of operating or shooting a 1911.

The thumb safety on a 1911 is so intuitive to disengage when the gun comes up that you do not even think about doing it.

Sort of like not having to think about cocking a single-action six shooter when it comes out of the holster.
Or getting hold of the tab on the zipper to zip your pants up.
You just automatically do it.

The thumb safety to just there under your thumb ready to be snicked off when you grasp a 1911. It is off before you can bring the gun to bear on a target.

There is absolutely no sane reason at all to holster carry a 1911 loaded & cocked with the safety off.

rc

Straight Shooter
February 3, 2010, 06:45 PM
But I can see from your questions you have no firsthand knowledge of operating or shooting a 1911.
Actually I owned a Colt Commander for 16 years. I sold it last March to fund the purchase of my Springfield XD .45 Service which also has a thumb safety. I purchased it with a thumb safety because I was used to the Commander.

I'm not advocating against condition 1 with a 1911. I just find it interesting that people find it to be a must for the 1911 and useless on a striker fired gun.

I think your argument about the sear pin/sear breaking is a good one although not highly probable. I think that a properly maintained gun can withstand being dropped (maybe not multiple times). I'm not sure that everyone who advocates condition 1 is thinking along that line. I think they are more intimidated by the cocked hammer showing.

The thumb safety on a 1911 is so intuitive to disengage when the gun comes up that you do not even think about doing it.

Sort of like not having to think about cocking a single-action six shooter when it comes out of the holster.
Or getting hold of the tab on the zipper to zip your pants up.
You just automatically do it.

The thumb safety to just there under your thumb ready to be snicked off when you grasp a 1911. It is off before you can bring the gun to bear on a target.
The same holds true for a thumb safety on a striker fired pistol. There are variances between manufacturers but most are easily engaged/disengaged yet most people opt against it.

The responses so far are interesting. I expected that the arguments would lean toward the striker fired pistols being more safe in condition 0 but so far the responses are leaning that both the 1911 and striker fired are less safe in condition 0 than condition 1.

The Lone Haranguer
February 3, 2010, 07:10 PM
Striker-fired pistols don't have a 3-4 lb. trigger pull that has to move less than 1/32 of an inch to fire.

atomd
February 3, 2010, 08:20 PM
2 lbs of difference in a trigger is huge. Heck, some 1911s only have a 2# trigger to begin with. Mine compared to a Glock is between 2 and 2.5 lbs of difference. The length of pull is drastically different also. Different animals.

The Lone Haranguer
February 3, 2010, 08:28 PM
A striker-fired DAO variant (as most such pistols are) is not a valid comparison to a Condition Zero 1911, IMO. The trigger characteristics are quite different. This is just something to give the various proponents or opponents of the respective system something to argue about to justify their choice of handgun. My choice needs no justification.

earlthegoat2
February 3, 2010, 08:48 PM
There is a big difference between a trigger that breaks at 5 lbs and has an 1/16" of travel and one that breaks at 5 lbs and has 1" of travel.

christcorp
February 3, 2010, 08:49 PM
There are 2 basic type of striker fire. One is single action, and when you rack the slide, you are chambering a round, and you are locking back the spring loaded firing pin. Similar to pulling back a crossbow. The trigger is single action only, and when you pull the trigger, you engage the sear which releases the firing pin and it flies forward. The other striker fire doesn't lock the firing pin back when you rack the slide. Racking the slide simply chambers the round. The gun can be a double action. The firing pin isn't brought back and released without pulling the trigger. You can tell because if you have a hard primer and the round doesn't go off, you can simply pull the trigger again for another hit. Also; basically, you can dry fire the weapon without racking the slide.

A single action strike fire without a firing pin block is in my opinion dangerous to carry "Cocked and Locked". Such a gun, at it's basics, is a Hi-Point. And don't dog HP because they are good guns. However, for this subject, they are not a safe gun to carry cocked and locked. It has an external safety, but that is to stop you from pulling the trigger. As with any gun, the internals could fail and the firing pin will launch forward and fire a round. Some however have a block for the firing pin. If you don't pull the trigger, there is a block in the way so the firing pin can't connect with the round in the chamber. The best is the next one up where it's a double action. Where the firing pin isn't held back under spring tension. It's only moved/cocked/etc... while pulling the trigger.

My preference of all semi-auto pistols is one that is SA/DA. One that can DE-COCK an external hammer. Non-Striker fire. e.g. Sig P220, Walther, etc....
Next in line would be a SA/DA with an external hammer that I can lower the hammer "SAFELY" manually de-cocking it. (It uses a transfer bar to block the firing pin). Non-Striker Fire. E.g. CZ-82.
Next would be a Single Action only Non-Striker fire that I can manually lower the hammer on. E.g. 1911A1.
Then I would get into the striker fire weapons that are SA/DA. But they would have to either be a DA on the firing pin, or at least have a firing pin block. E.g. Glock
Finally, it would be the SA Striker Fire without the safety features I've mentioned. These guns are the most simplistic. Little to break. Basic Semi-Auto construction. Inexpensive to own E.g. Hi-Point. I wouldn't carry this pistol, so chambered isn't a requirement. It would be a truck gun, garage gun, tackle box gun, etc... For this purpose, they are fantastic. Reliable and dependable. No frills.

baryon
February 3, 2010, 09:22 PM
A Series 80 1911 could be carried in Condition 0 even though nobody does. It is exactly equivalent to carrying a XD or M&P but not a Glock which requires the striker to be pulled back further before it can be fired.

Don't tell me that M&P is a DAO as the striker barely moves backward before it is released.

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