HK P7 vs. Glock 23


PDA






mm6mm6
February 4, 2010, 09:11 AM
I've been shooting my Glock 23 with a 9mm Lone Wolf barrel in "off-duty" combat matches in the league I shoot in. We average 10 matches for a final score. We can shoot 15 matches total and drop our five worst scores.

The Glock has been terrific with the 9mm barrel:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q187/mm6mm6/Glock074.jpg

Last night I shot my last 3 matches (#'s 13, 14, and 15). I decided to use my A-Grade German trade-in Heckler & Koch P7 9mm. I had wanted one of these guns since the early 1980's when I first read about them.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q187/mm6mm6/P7003.jpg

I improved my score by a lot with all three matches I fired. I was 20 points higher with the P7 than with the Glock. This is not a rip on Glock, but more of a tip of the hat to the HK P7. The matches are under time constraint and the gun is drawn from a covered position on the hip (you have to have a jacket or sweatshirt or vest covering the gun as if it was truly concealed). Magazine changes are included in the timed firing (6 shots, reload, fire 6 more). I find the heel magazine release on the P7 to be a non-issue compared to a button mag release. I noticed that I was firing my second string of 6 shots before the other 4 shooters on the line did. The squeeze cocking lever is very fast for releasing the slide during a reload.

Boy does the P7 get hot though! The first 50 round match was no problem. The second 50 round match was slightly uncomfortable due to the heat. The third string of 50 rounds in a row was enough to make me think my jacket might melt from contacting the gun. I did put three bandaids on my trigger finger to prevent my finger from getting burned where it contacted the super heated frame.

Anyway, I love my P7. It sure improved my scores!

If you enjoyed reading about "HK P7 vs. Glock 23" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
usp9
February 4, 2010, 10:03 AM
Boy does the P7 get hot though!

Sounds like you need another P7.

What factor made your score better...accuracy, speed, both?

Hkonboard
February 4, 2010, 10:18 AM
The P7 is extremely accurate and I love that damn trigger.

earlthegoat2
February 4, 2010, 10:23 AM
I shoot some informal competitions with the P7 and it is hands down the easiest to shoot accurately. The only drawback is the reload but you can get pretty darn quick with practice.

berettaprofessor
February 4, 2010, 10:45 AM
There's a reason the P7 was designed and you just found it. And I need to keep track of your post so I can reference it the next time somebody asks "whats so great about a P7?"

mm6mm6
February 4, 2010, 11:12 AM
You're right berettaprofessor!

Fixed barrel.
Excellent sights, pushed as far apart as possible, with a large rear sight notch.
Outstanding trigger.
Fantastic ergonomics.
Low felt recoil due to high hand grip and low mass slide.

Starcheck55
February 4, 2010, 03:38 PM
I love my P7...that being said I'd love for HK to put out a new version that had a polymer frame, hydraulic buffer (like the K3 model), M8 styled trigger guard and heat shield, factory night sights, and an optional threaded barrel.

of course they'd only sell it to the military so I won't hold my breath.

StarDust1
February 4, 2010, 04:21 PM
My understanding of the P7 was that the issue with the thing was the squeeze cocking mechanism and UNINTENDED discharges of the pistol resulting from it.
NJSP dumped them almost immediately!(like within a year) Aside from that, the ones I've handled(but never fired)were beautifully manufactured.

John Wayne
February 4, 2010, 05:19 PM
How does the squeeze-cocking lever result in unintended discharges?

StarDust1
February 4, 2010, 05:48 PM
It results from lack of training, and particularly a lack of keeping the finger off of the trigger unless you intend to fire the thing.
NJSP officers had great difficulty in deploying the squeeze cocking front strap without also depressing the trigger!

rcmodel
February 4, 2010, 05:51 PM
Good grief!

If they are too stupid or poorly trained to use a P7 without shooting something accidently, god forbid they replaced them with Glocks!

rc

StarDust1
February 4, 2010, 05:59 PM
Good grief!

If they are too stupid or poorly trained to use a P7 without shooting something accidently, god forbid they replaced them with Glocks!

rc
I believe it was a well publicized series of events, I don't have the data in front of me, but they got rid of them almost as soon as they began issuing them, perhaps as long as a couple of years...

Dave85
February 4, 2010, 09:48 PM
My understanding of the P7 was that the issue with the thing was the squeeze cocking mechanism and UNINTENDED discharges of the pistol resulting from it.
NJSP dumped them almost immediately!(like within a year) Aside from that, the ones I've handled(but never fired)were beautifully manufactured.
I have heard reports of reports of unintended discharges at the onset, and suppose it could easily be true. I don't know if the frequency would have been different that that among operators of DA/SA autos. The common issue, as I understand it, was officers attempting to reholster with their finger still on the trigger of a gun in SA mode. I think this was a mistake seen in increasing numbers as agencies shifted from DA revolvers to autos; many (or most) of which, at the time, were DA/SA. Remember, the NJSP put these into service back in 1983, at a time when most officers were accustomed to revolvers. Proper training seems to have taken care of the problem because the New Jersey Troopers carried them from 1983 until 2001.

As far as dumping out of them in less than a year, you are probably thinking of the S&W 99. In 2000-2001, NJSP attempted to replace the aging P7M8s then in service with the S&W pistols, but encountered jamming issues (http://www.njsp.org/news/newsitem03_14a_01.htm). They recalled all of the ones issued and went back to the P7s before replacing them with the SIG P228.

Quiet
February 4, 2010, 11:04 PM
I love my P7M8, by far the most accurate 9x19mm pistol I own.


In regards to the NJSP's P7M8s, Dave85 is correct.

silversport
February 5, 2010, 03:54 PM
I have heard reports of reports of unintended discharges at the onset, and suppose it could easily be true. I don't know if the frequency would have been different that that among operators of DA/SA autos. The common issue, as I understand it, was officers attempting to reholster with their finger still on the trigger of a gun in SA mode. I think this was a mistake seen in increasing numbers as agencies shifted from DA revolvers to autos; many (or most) of which, at the time, were DA/SA. Remember, the NJSP put these into service back in 1983, at a time when most officers were accustomed to revolvers. Proper training seems to have taken care of the problem because the New Jersey Troopers carried them from 1983 until 2001.

As far as dumping out of them in less than a year, you are probably thinking of the S&W 99. In 2000-2001, NJSP attempted to replace the aging P7M8s then in service with the S&W pistols, but encountered jamming issues (http://www.njsp.org/news/newsitem03_14a_01.htm). They recalled all of the ones issued and went back to the P7s before replacing them with the SIG P228.
Dave85 is right...they carried them a LONG time and loved them...very expensive...now I might be forgettign but wasn't it they for whom HK designed the M13 version???...anyway...no problems with the P7 unless you don't study the manual of arms...
Bill

Dave85
February 5, 2010, 09:04 PM
I don't know if they intended to offer it to the NJSP, but it was not adopted by them. It was submitted to the XM9 trials in 1983.

Balrog
February 5, 2010, 10:15 PM
The P7 is an accurate and interesting pistol, but I just can't get into using novelty items for self defense.

Pilot
February 5, 2010, 10:22 PM
The P7 is an accurate and interesting pistol, but I just can't get into using novelty items for self defense.


Sigh. If its a novelty item, then I guess I am guilty for believing in it for self defense. Its my second most carried pistol behind my CZ PCR and one of my favorites for range work. Its the only pistol I have two of and not because they get hot, its just that good.

Balrog
February 5, 2010, 10:27 PM
Yes, I agree they are nice pistols, I just don't want to use a gun with an unusual manual of arms and design for self defense. If you are comfortable with it, go for it! I didn't call your wife ugly, just gave my opinion about the P7. P7 owners are always so touchy.

Dave85
February 5, 2010, 11:29 PM
We do sometimes get a bit touchy. I'll admit that. Maybe, though, It has to do with constantly fielding insults based on myth and misconception. Insults such as calling it a "novelty item." It is not a novelty item. The P7 is a serious gun for serious uses, just like other service pistols. It has served a number of agencies very well in that capacity.

The manual of arms is not all that unusual. You squeeze the grip, you shoot the gun. Period. No different than any other pistol. That is one of the very cool things about it. You don't have to do anything differently, the gun uses your normal actions to operate. It is an elegant design.

We have all chosen guns in which we trust, using methods and processes in which we have confidence. We don't have to agree with others' choices or methods, but we can disagree without insult. To insult someone's gun is to insult their reasoning and intelligence. You get that enough, and you're going to get touchy.

Balrog
February 6, 2010, 12:15 AM
The manual of arms is not all that unusual.


I can think of no other pistol like it.


It has served a number of agencies very well in that capacity.

Is any agency still using it?

Dave85
February 6, 2010, 12:45 AM
I can think of no other pistol like it.

And yet it still works essentially just like any other pistol. Squeeze the grip, pull the trigger.

Is any agency still using it?

Not that I know of. Economic realities and changing technology has caused production to cease. Is any agency still using the Colt Trooper? Does that make it a novelty item?

Balrog
February 6, 2010, 12:49 AM
Is any agency still using the Colt Trooper? Does that make them a novelty item?

The thread was comparing the G23 v. P7. The Colt Trooper would undoubtedly work for self defense, but to some degree at this time it would be novelty item. They are no longer being produced, spare parts are difficult to find, and its not too easy to find someone to work on them. You can find a Glock Armorer just about anywhere, and can buy replacement parts from lots of places.

When I say the P7 is a novelty item, I would say so because of these very things. The economic realties and changing technology you speak of are reasons the P7 is a novelty item. That is not to say, however, that they are bad guns, or won't still kill people.

Girodin
February 6, 2010, 02:11 AM
A P7 is the one HK I have a real interest in buying.

meef
February 6, 2010, 03:00 AM
I had a Glock 23, and it was okay. Never could really warm up to it though I tried.

I sold it.

I have a P7 and I really, really like it.

It gets carried and it ain't gonna get sold.

What a beautiful piece of machinery.

Dave85
February 6, 2010, 03:14 AM
I certainly do see your point about the parts availability and dearth of service options, Balrog. That is a legitimate concern. If it ever does break, it surely will take more time and money to get it fixed than a Glock. We have two different philosophies, I suppose. I don't worry about it because if it breaks, I'll deal with it then, and use another gun until I can get it fixed. In the mean time, while it's working, I have the use of a really superb pistol. The shootability of which the OP's experience illustrates beautifully.

Pilot
February 6, 2010, 06:20 AM
Sorry, "Novelty Item" = insult IMHO. Poor choice of words on your part. How unusual can it be to squeeze and shoot?

atomd
February 6, 2010, 08:57 AM
I think it's more of a niche item than a novelty item. It's something that's a little bit different that you go out of your way for because you like the design so much. If you're a P7 fan you're willing to have a more limited holster selection than the Glock. You don't mind the longer wait if it ever needs parts/service. You don't mind that it gets hot during a range trip....and heck, you might even buy 2 of them to alternate. It's every bit the tool that the Glock is but it just has a more limited appeal (and availability). Nothing wrong with that at all. I don't own a P7 but I wouldn't mind owning one. I'm sure if I wrote out my ever expanding wish list.. it would make the cut.

Balrog
February 6, 2010, 09:54 AM
How unusual can it be to squeeze and shoot?

Isn't the P7 the only gun that has that feature?

Quiet
February 6, 2010, 11:05 AM
Isn't the P7 the only gun that has that feature?
Grip safety. 1911 and XD/XDm. :neener:

Zerodefect
February 6, 2010, 11:28 AM
The p7/p9 grip thingy is way different feeling than the 1911/XD.

With the XD you don't know its there, with the 1911 you only know its there when the gun fails to go bang due to a rushed combat grip.

The p7/p9 deos take some training to get used to, but really is a nice weapon for CCW once your used to it.

meef
February 6, 2010, 12:12 PM
If you're a P7 fan you're willing to have a more limited holster selection than the Glock.atomd - you hit that nail squarely on the head for sure.

Fact is, there is practically no holster selection out there.

I solved that problem by getting one from C. Rusty Sherrick - the Vertical High Ride Scabbard.

Fits and functions like a charm. I don't leave home without it. It's one of the best holsters I've ever purchased and I swear I've bought more holsters than Imelda Marcos had shoes.

:)

Any P7ers out there might consider it time well spent to take a look at one.

Pilot
February 6, 2010, 01:40 PM
I carry my P7 PSP in an off the shelf, inexpensive, Uncle Mike's Sidekick holster (Size 16) designed for a small auto. It works perfectly.

There are many high quality leather holsters also available for the P7M8.

Dave85
February 6, 2010, 04:08 PM
Holster availability is definitely an issue. I had one made by Andy Aratoonian at Horseshoe Leather that carries it very nicely. I also got a Kramer Shoulder Rig for it last summer. It is a good winter option, but not my favorite way to carry. The one off-the-rack holster I bought for it was the DeSantis paddle holster. Avoid that one. It carries it way too high, which plays against the butt heavy nature of the P7.

I think the point about the Squeeze-cocker as it relates to the function of the pistol is that you work it exactly the same way you work any pistol. The cocking mechanism is essentially automatic in that you do not consciously think about it. You squeeze (i.e. establish a firm firing grip), and it's cocked. It's just that simple. It is helpful to think of the cocking motion not as an active, conscious act, but as an automatic, passive process.

I think the thing that some people find off-putting – principally those who have had the opportunity to handle the P7 but not shoot it – is the difference between the grip geometries when it is uncocked, and when it is cocked. Personally, it took me all of about one box of ammo to get over that. Then again, I was familiar with the design, and had a positive perspective about it. I truly believe mental attitude greatly influences our experiences and perceptions.

For what it's worth, while I respect and have a positive perspective about the Glock, I have never gotten used to the feel of the safety on the Glock trigger. I'm sure I would with more practice, but after shooting eight of them in short succession over a couple of weeks (I had gone shopping for a Glock when I ended up getting the P7 a few years ago), it still felt weird to me. That was a surprise, as I had, and still have, a respect for the mechanism similar to my respect for the squeeze-cocking mechanism of the P7. It is an elegant design solution. I do not presume to think this discomfort is a defect in the gun, merely an acclimation challenge for me.

Balrog
February 6, 2010, 04:54 PM
For what it's worth, while I respect and have a positive perspective about the Glock, I have never gotten used to the feel of the safety on the Glock trigger.

It is kind of interesting that you can't get used to a small unobtrusive passive bit of plastic on the Glock trigger, but the big bulky squeeze cocking lever on the P7 doesnt bother you.

Starcheck55
February 6, 2010, 05:16 PM
It is kind of interesting that you can't get used to a small unobtrusive passive bit of plastic on the Glock trigger, but the big bulky squeeze cocking lever on the P7 doesnt bother you.

good grief

Dave85
February 7, 2010, 12:27 AM
It is kind of interesting that you can't get used to a small unobtrusive passive bit of plastic on the Glock trigger, but the big bulky squeeze cocking lever on the P7 doesnt bother you.
First off, you'll note that I did not say that I can't get used to it, I said I have not yet gotten used to it. As a mater of fact, I made it quite clear that, given time, I expect I could get used to it.

EDIT: Stricktly speaking, since I feel it, it is not unobtrusive to me. All of these perceptions are entirely subjective on all sides.

Second, I would make this comparison to address the heart of your point: you're annoyed by that little piece of sand in your shoe, but that big insole doesn't bother you a bit.

Balrog
February 7, 2010, 09:23 AM
Second, I would make this comparison to address the heart of your point: you're annoyed by that little piece of sand in your shoe, but that big insole doesn't bother you a bit.

Good grief.

If you enjoyed reading about "HK P7 vs. Glock 23" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!