Long Range Hunting Rifle/Paper Puncher?


PDA






David Sours
February 4, 2010, 08:07 PM
Looking to purchase a heavier caliber for some 1000yd paper punching. Nothing competitive just fun. Purchased a T/C Icon Precision Hunter last fall and have been very pleased. Would like to stick with T/C but I would be limited to 308 or the new 6.5 Creedmoor. My T/C is in 243 and I would like something a little heavier and something with a longer barrel to get the additional fps the T/C has a 22" barrel. The accuracy from the T/C has been in my opion amazing. I have heard nothing but good things about Savage so I was thinking about going that route. I was looking on Savage's website and came across this model and I was thinking about the 300 WSM any thoughts, opinons or experience? I am a reloader so I would beable to work a load for the gun as well. I have had great luck with the Berger VLD's both at the bench and in the field. As far as the hunting applications go it would be for white-tailed deer, over bean fields. We have a farm with crop damage permits and take a fair number of does each year. So this is the type of hunting work the gun would see.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/

Thanks in advance for the advice.

David

If you enjoyed reading about "Long Range Hunting Rifle/Paper Puncher?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
David Sours
February 4, 2010, 08:09 PM
I guess the link does not take you to the exact model. The model I was thinking about is the Model 12 VLP DBM in 300 WSM.

Thanks Again,
David

mickeydim468
February 4, 2010, 08:21 PM
I don't have any experience with that rifle or caliber, but I have heard lots of good things about the Savage rifles. I looked at the model you mentioned above and it sure looks like a nice rifle. I did see it says it weighs 10lbs. Would you be doing any carrying of your rifle during your hunts, or would it mostly be from stands? If from a stand I would think it would be very accurate and shouldn't kick too hard either with that much weight behind it.

I am sure that the other guys will have more experience with this particular model than I do. They will chime in real soon I am sure.

Either way, good luck with you rifle buying. It sure is fun, no matter what you're after. :-)

Mikey!

David Sours
February 4, 2010, 08:29 PM
There would be very little carring in this situation. A short walk from the truck to the top of the hill. I would be set up on a bluff over looking the bean field. Ranges would be from 200 and beyond, for me the limit would probably be 600yds. There is a heck of a lot that needs to come together to take a animal cleanly at that range, at least in my opinon. I feel very comfortable taking a good shot at 450 and under currently. However, we are about to get serious and start working at the 600yd mark and beyond on paper.

Your right it is fun to start shopping for a new gun!

David

Abel
February 4, 2010, 09:08 PM
I would just get a Weatherby Vanguard in 308. It has a 24" barrel.

http://www.weatherby.com/product/rifles/vanguard/synthetic

mickeydim468
February 4, 2010, 09:15 PM
I love both of my Weatherby Vanguards. I have a .243 Win and a 300 Win Mag. They both shoot MOA or less if I do my part. They are a bit cheaper too.

jester_s1
February 5, 2010, 03:11 AM
To do the kind of shooting you're talking about you really need a custom quality gun. Hand lapped match barrel (Kreiger, Bartlein, etc), high end stock, match trigger, etc. There are numerous shops that specialize in such rifles in the $2000-$3000 range. Expect 1/2 MOA out of the box with such a rifle and a barrel that doesn't foul up quickly so you can actually practice like you need to.

Float Pilot
February 5, 2010, 04:06 AM
I have a 300 Win Mag chambered Rem M-700 Extreme Tactical with a 26 inch barrel.
It is a real tack driver with the 3.5 x14 Leupold scope.

ricehombre
February 5, 2010, 07:58 AM
Don't waste your money on a Savage. Stick with a company that stands behind their product. The 308 would be a good jump from 243 and a lot more enjoyable to shoot at the range. Get a decent used rifle, before they used plastic, and have it rebarreled. Your in business.

IdahoLT1
February 5, 2010, 08:11 AM
Care to elaborate ricehombre? Savage makes a damn good rifle for the money. A writer in Shooting Times tested their model 12 ft/r not too long ago he got a 3 shot group to measure around .8" at 500 yds. That's a factory rifle with a $1300 pricetag.

ricehombre
February 5, 2010, 08:21 AM
Hope that writer doesn't write a check for the rifle, he won't get any service out of Savage. I guess if you get them cheap enough you can always hire a gunsmith but you'll loose your mind trying to talk to the robots at savage. The day after you buy, you're on your own. As I said, there's much better options.

David Sours
February 5, 2010, 09:02 AM
Here is another one I thouhgt about, I have an A-Bolt that I have had for 19 yrs and it still shoots great it is my go to gun in 280. I was looking at Browning's site and came across this one.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=001B&cat_id=035&type_id=189

Also any opinons about the Ruger MK Target Rifle, maybe the new 6.5 Creedmoor?


Thanks,
David

IdahoLT1
February 5, 2010, 09:23 AM
I've put around 800 rounds through my 10fp in the last 3.5 years with zero problems. That's more than a good amount of people put through their rifle on their lifetime. Sure there are some that slip through but every company has those. Look at the general consensus on all the threads and you'll find Savages are one of the better deals

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 5, 2010, 11:58 AM
Even IF the recoil & component cost were the same, the 6.5 creedmoor bests the .300 WSM or .300 win mag at 1000. It's all about velocity and BC combos. I would encourage you to run the numbers. By the time you've got a good BC (175 grains and up) in .300, you're going slower than grandma on the turnpike. The creedmoor wins due to the excellent 139s available. Since it's easier on your shoulder and wallet, TOO, it's a no-brainer.

David Sours
February 5, 2010, 12:27 PM
I was looking at that last evening the 6.5's are pretty impressive. The other thing is I am very pleased with my T/C Precision Hunter. I just wonder how the Creedmoor will perform with the 22" barrel that is on the Icon, I don't think I will be able to achieve the velocities that have been published with the 22" barrel. I have sent an e-mail to T/C to find the twist rate used on the 6.5. Hopefully 1:8 if so I might be looking at getting another T/C.

David

sumpnz
February 5, 2010, 01:25 PM
If you're willing to go with something other than a T/C look into the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser cartridge. Lots of companies have chambered for that over time. I know CZ and Sako/Tikka currently do. I think Winchester still does. No idea about Savage and Remington. Ruger, I think, does the 6.5 Creedmoor but not the Swede. The latter two I think have made them in the past.

The CZ comes with a 23.6" barrel (600mm). 2700+ fps with a 140gr bullet is quite achievable with the right powders. 3000fps with a 120gr is also quite possible. When I could still get the 140 XLC from Barnes I was chronographing 2850fps with a slightly over book-max charge of Rl-19.

Float Pilot
February 5, 2010, 03:14 PM
the 6.5 creedmoor bests the .300 WSM or .300 win mag at 1000. It's all about velocity and BC combos...Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

Brother Tad... I respectfully disagree.

While there are nice 1000 yard 6.5mms out there (like the 6.5x06 or 6.5-284 or even the 264 Win Mag), I question that the 6.5mm Creedmore is it...

If you fire a 139 grain Laupua Scenar (BC=.615) at 2,750 fps from a 6.5 Creedmore, the 1,000 yard velocity is 1,505 fps. If zeroed at 1,000 yards the max flight path height of the bullet is 104.6 inches at 600 yards.

I fire 180 grain Berger VLDs (BC=.560) from my M-700 XCR-Tact (300 Win Mag) at 3,120 fps.
At 1,000 yards that bullet is still going 1,638 fps. The max flight path height when zeroed at 1,000 yards is 85.2 inches high at 600 yards.

If I fire a 190 grain Sierra Match King (BC=.533) at 2,900 fps which is accurate, but not the max velocity from my 300 Win Mag. The flight path of the bullet is almost exactly the same as the 6.5 Creedmore.

Now if you push a 139 Scenar a 200 to 300 feet per second faster with a 6.5x284 then the trajectory really leaves the win mag in the dust.

1858
February 5, 2010, 03:34 PM
A writer in Shooting Times tested their model 12 ft/r not too long ago he got a 3 shot group to measure around .8" at 500 yds. That's a factory rifle with a $1300 pricetag.

A 0.153 MOA group at 500 yards!! :what: Even if the writer in question somehow ended up with a group like that, I'd like to see him/her do that five times in a row. I would call that luck more than anything else and certainly no indication of what the rifle is actually consistently, realistically capable of.

David Sours, if you want one of those "legacy" calibers as they're sometimes called, the .300 Win Mag would be a good choice. It's not the "best" in terms of ballistics but for 1000 yards it's a lot better than the .308 Win. If you want a short action, .300 WSM would also work well being slightly inferior to the .300 Win Mag in terms of ballistics but also a little cheaper to shoot in terms of powder and case life. As I'm sure you're aware, if you don't plan on using a suppressor or muzzle brake, recoil with the larger more powerful calibers can be a big issue. I shoot a .308 Win and .300 Win Mag in 200, 300 and 600 yard matches and the .300 Win Mag is considerably more difficult to shoot when the objective is small groups in the X ring! I don't care for muzzle brakes and my state doesn't allow suppressors.

Good luck!

:)

IdahoLT1
February 5, 2010, 04:59 PM
I no longer have the magazine or I would scan it and post it up. But it was the April 2007 shooting times and it was a 3-shot, .88" group. Probably not the norm but I've seen other members report 1/4 moa groups.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 5, 2010, 05:31 PM
OK, Float Pilot, you are right - I was thinking more of the higher case capacity 6.5s, you are correct. And the 155 gr .308 scenar makes it a much closer race even though, it occurs to me now.

pwillie
February 5, 2010, 06:15 PM
If you can find a Winchester model 70, Laredo boss in 300WM,it would be the cheapest way to go for your buck. Comes with an S&H stock excellent long range rifle

MachIVshooter
February 5, 2010, 06:31 PM
A 0.153 MOA group at 500 yards!! Even if the writer in question somehow ended up with a group like that, I'd like to see him/her do that five times in a row. I would call that luck more than anything else and certainly no indication of what the rifle is actually consistently, realistically capable of.


I agree. Are you sure it wasn't .8 MOA (just under 5" at 500)? The current IBS record for benchrest heavy gun was barely better than that at .918" @ 600 yards, set by Sam hall. I gaurantee the only thing his gun has in common with any Savage is basic mechanical functions.

1858
February 5, 2010, 06:57 PM
The current IBS record for benchrest heavy gun was barely better than that at .918" @ 600 yards, set by Sam hall.

Or consider the winner of the 300 yard Heavy Varmint 2009 Benchrest World Championships. His groups on five targets (five shots per target I believe) are shown below.

Campbell Wayne (USA)

0.930" (0.296 MOA)
1.089" (0.347 MOA)
0.523" (0.166 MOA)
0.997" (0.317 MOA)
0.976" (0.311 MOA)

AGG SCORE
0.9030" (0.287 MOA)

So he couldn't even manage a 0.153 MOA group at 300 yards let alone 500 yards and that's with precise reloads and a rifle that's considerably more accurate than any "out of the box" rifle!! Now consider that he's the 2009 World Champion and not some journalist hack writing for a magazine that gets its money from advertising. Also, shooting becomes increasingly difficult as the range increases, so an honest 1/2 MOA shooter/rifle at 100 yards isn't going to be a 1/2 MOA shooter at 600 yards ... I guarantee it! As for 1/4 MOA "out of the box rifles" and folks claiming all kinds of rubbish about their equipment or themselves ... :barf:

:)

Snakum
February 5, 2010, 09:13 PM
I have been agonizing for three weeks over a long range hunter/sometimes target rifle caliber. I read everything on the net about long range shooting and calibers (Literally ... everything!), made spreadsheets and did calculations, posted for advice here and there and everywhere, studied ballistics till my brain hurt, and went back and forth daily between all sorts of calibers.

Today I ordered a .308. Save yourself the pain and do the same. :)

Uncle Mike
February 5, 2010, 09:20 PM
Don't waste your money on a Savage. Stick with a company that stands behind their product.

What are you smoking in that Hukka...!?!

he won't get any service out of Savage.

.....????

mdmax
February 9, 2010, 03:41 PM
TC Icon or Venture in chosen caliber. All in 24 in. tubes, MOA guarantee, lifetime warranty, and great customer service

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 9, 2010, 08:45 PM
You got that straight - you get milspec 5R rifling in a budget turnbolt (the Venture), American made and great warranty service - are you kiddin me?

If you enjoyed reading about "Long Range Hunting Rifle/Paper Puncher?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!