[armoredman]

My usually 100% reliable vz-58 suddenly stopped shooting this morning, until I figured out the bolt wasn't going into battery. I worked it, and a little brass disc showed up, bent into a 90 degree angle. Pried it out, running just fine again. Where did this little disc come from?



From here.



http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/75yardvz58EOTech3.jpg

Ouch. Old Remington brass, Winchester small rifle primers, 24grains AA# 1680, (great load), COAL of 2.17. I am guessing a loose primer pocket caused by age gave enough room for the primer to expand violently, and this disc to blow out? All other brass have normal struck primers, no issues whatsoever. Never had this issue with Winchester brass and CCI large rifle primers.
There was no differance in noise, recoil, and the bullet fired hit the target. Thoughts?

[R.W.Dale]

Probably just a weak primer cup. You might concider going to a cci #41 mil spec primer. I've gone to these for all my sr needs and not only are they tougher but they're also very concistant.

[armoredman]

Eh, I only have a few of the Remingtons left, then will be all Winchester. I suppose I could try the CCI large rifle military primer, disremember the number. Thanks for the comment, I wasn't sure if it was just the primer or what.
Right now all newly primed brass is getting Remington 9 1/2s, all I could find at the local shop.

[FROGO207]

Hey guys might it have been a small PISTOL primer that somehow got into the mix. Might have even happened at the factory. Other thought would be the die was adjusted wrong when the primer was made thus weakening the primer assy.

[armoredman]

Hmm, not likely at this end, I only have the primers I am using out, the rest are secured, but not knowing how they separate them at the factory, that might have happened. It is weird, never happened to me before in any round, factory or reload.
Thanks for the thought. :)

[243winxb]

Thin and/or brittle defective primer cup. The area where the firing pin made contact got punched out. Any pits from gas cutting on your bolt face or firing pin head?

[armoredman]

Nope, bolt head is fine. Firing pin looks AOK too.

[FROGO207]

Chalk another one up to what the?????????????:scrutiny:

[armoredman]

I think I will have to agree. :)

[243winxb]

Photos of your other primers fired that day might be interesting. Never seen one like yours. I have had them blow out on the side, even with lite loads. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_DefectivePrimer.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/DefectivePrimer.jpg) Hope your other primers dont look like these > http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_223_20090302_1.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/223_20090302_1.jpg) Click Photo for Larger View.

[armoredman]

As you wish. :) 8, pulled out of the tumbler.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/spentbrass.jpg

[rfwobbly]

Thoughts?

Termites?

:D

[armoredman]

AHA! I should have known, the pesky little buggers evolved into brass eaters! :) :D

[243winxb]

They look ok.

[Walkalong]

His primer did not blow, it was pierced. And yes, his other primers look great.

[243winxb]

The pierced in 357 mag. i have had always had a pin hole in the bottom center of the cup. This 7.62 X 39 has the metal completely gone, you can see the anvil. If it happens more, i would look at a long firing pin or to much clearance around the firing pin. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/defectiveprimercup.jpg

[Walkalong]

Since his other primers look great, it probably was just one bad one. It still would not hurt to go to a "harder" primer.


.357? That is armoredman's 7.62 X 39 pic.

[243winxb]

.357? That is armoredman's 7.62 X 39 pic. I was just saying , the only experence i have had with pierced is in a 357mags. Sorry for the confusion.

[SlamFire1]

Around the turn of the century Winchester redesigned their primers. Per telephone conversations with Winchester, I was informed the changes were to make their primers more sensitive and “combat off center firing pin hits”.

Another change was that the primers changed color, from nickel plate to brass finish.

A consequence of this is that Winchester primers, particularly the small rifle primers, are piercing at loads that never bothered the good old nickel primers.

I stopped using WSR because of the expense of replacing AR15 firing pins. I was experiencing a pierced primer during each ten round string of rapid fire.

I wish I could blame Winchester for acting irresponsibly, but there has been a race to the bottom for several decades. There have been several factors. Once of which is coil cutters. There are a lot of people who cut mainspring coils off their firearms, add reduced power mainsprings, then loudly blame the ammunition when it fails to ignite. Another is the age of the antiques out there and the failure of people to install new mainsprings in their 50-100 year old thundersticks. These asmatic firearms will not reliably ignite many primers. CCI primers have been the least sensitive primers on the market for years, and they are universally reviled by the coil cutters.

There is one more and more pernicious and serious problem in the firearms industry, and that is the loss of technical knowledge due to outsourcing. Mark Humphreville addressed this in his article “IT DON’T GO BANG-FIRES, HANGFIRES, MISFIRES AND SHORT ORDER COOKS IN JERSEY” http://www.eotacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=46502&p=404156 Mark worked as a Test Director Small Arms and Ammunition at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. He records in his article how the commercial design community has been lobitimized due to cost cutting. New ignition designs for the commercial market have insufficient energy to realibly ignite primers. Also sloppy manufacturing is creating off center hits on primers and that really will induce misfires.

Expect total stupidity when the rest of the Amercian Manufacturing and Design capability is off shored. All that will be left to pick the bones of the middle class will be the Bankers and Wall Street.

Still, if you are using the newly designed Winchester primers, expect to get blown primers.

A bud of mine was shooting this in a Highpower match in his AR. The anvil is blown through the hole in the primer. This is of course, a WSR.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/CroppedRearcaseontopfiringpinlarger.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/CroppedGoodrearcaseshotDSCN6127.jpg

[armoredman]

Thankfully the only WSRs I have left are for the very few Remington brass I have left. I will retire them, (should've a year ago!), and keep loading the Winchester brass with the Remington 9 1/2s I have - no negative stories about those, are there? Being in a 1.5 horse town sometimes has big disadvantages - no local Sportsman's Warehouse or Cabelas, and the rinky dink local "gunshop" carrys squat for reloading.
I am thinking I should see about another firing pin, too, just to have a spare with me...

[armoredman]

Found a number for Winchester, gonna call them tomorrow.

Edit to add, contacted Olin Winchester, lady said to box it up in a sturdy box, UPS will be coming with a call tag today or next day with a call tag, hand it over. :) Get rid of the evidence? it was in the recycle bin anyway, OK, take it. Last time I did this, I had a Winchester WinClean case disintegrate on firing, left a nice gouge in my glasses from flying brass. They called back the other rounds, fired them, claimed no problem, and I was out both glasses AND ammo. That was 9 years ago, let's see if custserv has improved - then again, I didn't ask for anything. :)

Only problem, only sturdy box I have that small is a Hornady bullet box...betcha that doesn't go over well. :D

[armoredman]

Went out today, 80% I hear nothing, 90% it's all my fault. :D

[armoredman]

Well, whaddya know, I had to call them. They said it never got there by thier own tracking number, I said I'll research it, and the lady said call me right back.
Tracking number shows delivered yesterday. Called her back - voice mail, out to lunch by the receptionist. In 5 minutes.
Bet is now %100 percent they will say it's all my fault.

[mmorris]

Sorry to bring back an old thread....

Bet is now %100 percent they will say it's all my fault.

What did they say?

Mike

[armoredman]

The last person I spoke to denied any knowledge of even the shipment of this defective primer, much less disposition/diagnosis. If I hadn't taken the picture above, there would be no proof whatsoever of this primers' failing AND jamming of my rifle. I won't buy any more Wichester primers OR Winchester LOADED ammo, because they are using the same faulty primers. I am certain there are 1000's of people on this board who have never had any trouble with Winchester ammo/primers, but this episode AND the LACK of customer service says GOODBYE to Winchester for this reloader. As my Winchester brass wears out, I will replace it with other brands, as well.


BTW, I invite any Winchester Olin Ammunition representative surfing this thread to respond. Preferrably with some answers. I won't even demand the primers be replaced now, too late for that.

[Encoreman]

Yeah, you left us hanging for the punch line!!

[armoredman]

Sorry, was just plain disgusted with the whole situation.