I'm Rethinking Mouseguns.


PDA






Phydeaux642
February 5, 2010, 10:29 PM
I was off of work yesterday and had to run some errands including stopping by the bank, and I left the house with a Keltec P32 in my pocket. It's been a reliable gun and is extremely easy to carry in the smallest of pockets. I usually carry a 642 in a Mika holster, but I had sweats on (hey, I'm off work and I want to be comfortable) and the P32 works well like this.

Today, I hear that the bank (it's a very small branch) was robbed by a young punk with a shotgun not long after I left. This got me to thinking about what I was carrying and whether or not I feel comfortable with a small caliber. I think I have decided to retire the P32 unless there is just no other option. I know many people think that a .38 is the bare minimum and that's okay because I feel real comfortable with the one that I carry.

Now, I'm no hero and am not looking to be, but if I would have been just a little bit later to the bank I would have found myself in the middle of a bad situation. Would I have done something? I don't have any idea. I do know that after I found out about the robbery, I felt that I may have been under gunned. I know that shot placement is everything, but a bigger hole can't hurt (or maybe I should say a bigger hole would hurt more).

If you enjoyed reading about "I'm Rethinking Mouseguns." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
mm6mm6
February 5, 2010, 10:36 PM
I think I'd feel undergunned with my .45 since the bad guy had a shotgun....

Phydeaux642
February 5, 2010, 10:39 PM
I think I'd feel undergunned with my .45 since the bad guy had a shotgun....

I know what you mean, but unfortunately I can't conceal a shotgun.:evil:

NMGonzo
February 5, 2010, 10:41 PM
Think officer's size 1911

Cover your retreat with fire!!

Phydeaux642
February 5, 2010, 10:49 PM
Think officer's size 1911


That just wouldn't work well with the way I dress (casual slacks with a shirt tucked in). I'm, shall we say, full figured and I have to reach to get things off of shelves and bend over quite a bit during the day and my shirt never stays tucked in to hide a tuckable holster.

SOCO
February 5, 2010, 10:54 PM
Something to ponder...

Had you taken the time to change out of your sweats and into pants with a belt for your full sized carry, then you may have very well been right in the middle of that robbery. Things happen (or don't happen) for a reason.

w_houle
February 5, 2010, 11:07 PM
Cover your retreat with fire!!
... and nothing says that like a flamethrower!:p
Seriously though: You would be hard pressed to have carried comfortably anything adequate for defense in that situation. Maybe a snubby .44 Mag?

shockwave
February 5, 2010, 11:13 PM
I don't think it's too much of an issue. If you unload a clip of .32 into somebody, and you're accurate, you're going to ruin their day. Personally, the absolute minimum I'll carry is 9mm, or .38 spl. hollowpoint. But you can get the job done with .32. Better than nothing. And if you're blasting away at the guy with a shotgun, his accuracy won't be optimal.

DeepSouth
February 5, 2010, 11:37 PM
That just wouldn't work well with the way I dress (casual slacks with a shirt tucked in). I'm, shall we say, full figured and I have to reach to get things off of shelves and bend over quite a bit during the day and my shirt never stays tucked in to hide a tuckable holster.

Some people have to dress to the gun. I know that ain't what you want to hear but it is still true. When I started carrying something other than a NAA I had to switch pants, I didn't like it but such it life. I had to ask myself "What do I want more, to be armed or to be comfortable?" with time I have adapted and I am now comfortably armed.

Carrying a weapon is a responsibility that will sometimes force you to change thing you would rather not. Such is life.

I also think you have a legitimate concern about being underpowered. I would recommend something bigger than a 32 for a carry weapon. I like stuff that begins with the number 4, but that is just me.

W.E.G.
February 5, 2010, 11:47 PM
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/movies/bickle.jpg

S&Wfan
February 6, 2010, 12:01 AM
My Keltec P32 has resided in the safe for a very, very long time now. I bought it many years ago and loved the small, flat, and light little sucker.

I didn't love the super long and mushy trigger pull, the "sights" and the horrid accuracy.

Then . . . there's that anemic little light weight .32 caliber round . . .

I've been a deer hunter for many years ago, and I've seen amazing things sometimes when a deer is shot with a really powerful round and appears to not even be shot . . . then running off to bled out much later.

So, today my minimum CCW gun is a 15 oz. S&W Model 37 Airweight in .38 Spl. It has a great trigger, "OK" sights that I can still get good accuracy with (a little over an inch at ten yards, and about 2 1/2 5-shot groups at 25 yards. Thus, I have great confidence with that little gun.

I call it my "always" gun and when my wife and I went downtown tonight for an Italian dinner, it was in my front pocket in its pocket holster. Now since we would be downtown after dark and I'd be wearing a light coat, I also wore a belt slide holster on my belt which held a S&W Model 19 2 1/2" barreled .357 Magnum.

The S&W snubbie is so light and concealable, there's no need for something "smaller" that is so much less adequate.

PS: ALWAYS keep in mind, when you encounter trouble like a shotgunner robbing a bank you are in, that you are NOT under any obligation to do ANYTHING. Don't pick a fight that you are not sure you can win. If you'd been at the bank and pulled the P32 you'd have almost certainly been killed . . . even if you lucked out and hit the robber with every round the mousegun had in it.

shooter514
February 6, 2010, 12:04 AM
I don't think it's too much of an issue. If you unload a clip of .32 into somebody, and you're accurate, you're going to ruin their day. Personally, the absolute minimum I'll carry is 9mm, or .38 spl. hollowpoint. But you can get the job done with .32. Better than nothing. And if you're blasting away at the guy with a shotgun, his accuracy won't be optimal.
buts its a shot gun ! dos it really need to be aimed all that optimally? jm.02

GIJOEL
February 6, 2010, 12:08 AM
I don't think the size of the round matters as much as the ability of the user to put shots where they count. In my experience people don't get to be good at using pocket guns. When I used to go to the range i'd grab my 1911 and my MKII and leave the P3AT in the safe. My buddy's naa 32 is the same way, thats why they are belly guns and have crude sights (if any). To me pocket guns are PERSONAL defence weapons.

w_houle
February 6, 2010, 12:08 AM
I've been a deer hunter for many years ago, and I've seen amazing things sometimes when a deer is shot with a really powerful round and appears to not even be shot . . . then running off to bled out much later.
A testament to survival... There's enough anecdotal accounts of people not dying when impaled with large objects in vital areas. I'm not saying one shot stops are a myth, but just that it's not a guarantee... even with bullets that start with a .4:eek:

wlewisiii
February 6, 2010, 12:14 AM
2" snubby in .38 Special +P remains the best compromise if it has to be concealed. 4" barrel otherwise. Fixed sights and 158 gr. LSWCHP +P either way.

Other things are smaller. Other things are stronger. This gets the job done.

William

MCgunner
February 6, 2010, 12:19 AM
Tactics, if all you have is a wimpy .38 against a shotgun, you're dead, too! You find a corner to hide behind something, you draw your weapon, and you hope the guy doesn't come your way and if he does, you fire for CNS. That would be my first alternative, run and hide behind...hopefully something substantial. Call me a coward, but self defense is not about stopping a crime. Let the pros do that.

I carry a pocket sized 9mm. It's a Kel Tec P11 and it's quite pocketable. I also have a .38. I have a .380, but never carry it. Yeah, I don't think much of the .32. LOL I can put 6 of 8 on 6" plates off hand at 25 yards with that 9 and it spits out 115 grain JHPs at 1268 fps. Yet, it's not much harder to tote than a baby .380 like the P3AT. The PF9 is thinner, too, if that matters, but I don't wear sweats. That ain't a pretty picture. ROFL!

I've been carrying a belt gun this winter since it's been pretty cool and I can wear a vest over it. I'm toting a medium frame 3" .357 magnum in a Hume JIT slide lately and the .38 is in a pocket for back up. Yeah, it works for me! Now, when summer rolls around, I'll breakout the little 9. I don't believe you can carry just one method, or at least I can't. I have to tune my carry to the seasons and to my situation. So, I keep a .22, a .380, a pocket 9, etc all at the ready. They all work 100 percent and I practice with all of 'em. To me, there is no one answer. I'm going to add something else, probably, with my tax return, just haven't figured out what.

Floppy_D
February 6, 2010, 12:28 AM
You win every gunfight you don't attend. Even with a mousegun, a shot or two can buy you time to politely excuse yourself. As sm would say, "use enough shoe."

shockwave
February 6, 2010, 12:33 AM
Yeah, I don't think much of the .32. LOL I can put 6 of 8 on 6" plates off hand at 25 yards with that 9 and it spits out 115 grain JHPs at 1268 fps.

LOL did you see the thread on the police shooting survey LOL they have stats on police shootings and fatalities LOL ROFL and found that most shooting occur at around 6 ft or less LOL and LOL found that fatalities were LOL heaviest in that distance LOL and ROFL there are serious lessons learned here, especially LOL that accuracy is incredibly poor even inside 6 ft ROFL and LOL maybe the point and shoot system LOL is superior in RL applications LOL because that's the time frame you have available - draw LOL and pull the gun up to your chin then point and squeeze fire and empty the gun in the direction LOL of the assailant.

sgt127
February 6, 2010, 01:04 AM
Phydeaux642
I know what you mean, but unfortunately I can't conceal a shotgun.

You're not trying hard enough....


http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j277/sgt127/IMG_1553.jpg

:D

dromaeo
February 6, 2010, 01:49 AM
I can hit a cigarette pack consistently at 7 yards with my kel-tec pf9. It is a pocket 9. There is also a laser sight you can buy for it that is dead on upon being attached, it doesn't need sighting in at all.

Nasty
February 6, 2010, 07:22 AM
Having a license to carry does not make us cops...even if you were inside facing the shotgun, the best choice would be to follow directions unless you were in imminent danger.

Tough to swallow maybe, but the truth.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 6, 2010, 07:46 AM
I think I have decided to retire the P32 unless there is just no other option.

I always thought that was the point of mouseguns in the first place. I own an LCP in .380, but I never consider carrying it as just a normal CCW. Anyone who thinks mouseguns are a serious everyday substitute needs to rethink things. I carry the LCP when I can't carry my Glock. That's why I bought it. I never intended to use it as an everyday thing. I think it's a mistake to carry a mousegun everyday like a standard CCW. But they do serve their purpose in special circumstance.

harmon rabb
February 6, 2010, 10:22 AM
PS: ALWAYS keep in mind, when you encounter trouble like a shotgunner robbing a bank you are in, that you are NOT under any obligation to do ANYTHING. Don't pick a fight that you are not sure you can win. If you'd been at the bank and pulled the P32 you'd have almost certainly been killed . . . even if you lucked out and hit the robber with every round the mousegun had in it.

agreed. i would not be a hero, taking on a guy with a shotgun, with any handgun. that's a very nice way to die.

in a bank robbery, i'd simply follow directions and only attempt to do something about if i had to. not worth dying over.

BossHogg
February 6, 2010, 12:33 PM
;) Would my .410 shotgun be a mouse compared to a 12 gauge ?

BillyBothHands
February 6, 2010, 12:47 PM
As long as I'm staying aware of everything I don't feel undergunned. Despite what society would have us believed most people that are up to something at the given time and place DON'T have a stone cold demeanor. Know who everybody is and why they are there. I have no problem walking away, coming back later or going somewhere else if anyone looks the least bit twitchy. Straining the boundaries of the topic I suppose but thats my pair of pennies :)

Also I've wondered since we talk about 380 and below as mouse guns, if that makes the "mid" range 9mm, 38 etc. nutria rats? lol

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2010, 05:03 PM
What I live by:

1) Any gun is better than no gun

2) carry the most gun you can within a reasonable attire.

3) consider the potential to actually need a gun.

In most places I go, I don't see myself being picked out as a target of robbery or random violence, as I'm a very physically fit 28 year old of 180 pounds and 6 foot tall with shoes on. The way I dress leaves little to the imagination about my build.

I refuse to wear the type of clothing necessary to conceal a full-sized pistol most of the time. Just not comfortable. I also consider where and when I'm going, and evaluate the probablity of ever actually needing a firearm. Run to the local wal-mart? I feel my P3 is more than adequate given the EXTREMELY unlikely odds of needing it in a town where there hasn't been a homicide, armed robbery or forcible rape since it became a town.

Headed to a show downtown and a restaurant afterwards that's gonna put me on East Colfax in the wee hours? At the very least, my S&W CS-45 and a BUG. I'm a white boy in Western dress (Double-H lace-up's, Wranglers and a fitting tee or button up shirt), so I stand out and become more of a target for the unscrupulous types that lurk in those places at those times, even considering my stature.

NMGonzo
February 6, 2010, 07:00 PM
Ankle hoslter?

rogertc1
February 6, 2010, 07:24 PM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/rogertc1/DesertEagle.jpg

w_houle
February 6, 2010, 07:33 PM
Why not just build a .50 BMG pistol then?

MikePGS
February 6, 2010, 07:34 PM
One hit from that, Roger, and its all over!

PX15
February 6, 2010, 07:42 PM
Phy642,

Respectfully I don't think ANYONE would say a mousegun of ANY caliber would be a first choice for cc ANYPLACE.

The reason a person carries a small gun is because that is the only choice that person has at that particular time.

IF you can carry a larger cc weapon, I recommend that's what you do.

As far as the bank robber with the shotgun?

That shotgun trumps ANY pistol you might have had stashed concealed at the time.

When I can comfortably and reasonably carry a larger caliber concealed weapon than my LWS380 I do.

But when I CANNOT carry a hand cannon, the LWS380 makes the trip, and I'm darn glad to have it along.

No offense,

Best Wishes,

Jesse

marv
February 6, 2010, 08:16 PM
There is no reason whatever for Joe Blow to defend a bank. They won't defend themselves. They just give the BG the money and collect the insurance and let the FBI catch him.
On a different note, I salute anyone who wears a handgun in a belt holster all day every day. I tried it with my PF9 in a good leather fitted holster and soon found it to be a royal PITA. I'd rather just drop my P3AT/DeSantis Nemisis in my pocket and fuggedabotit.

ms6852
February 6, 2010, 08:58 PM
My wife knows that I will never react in a scenario where a person or persons comes in with the intentions of robbing at gun point. Whether it be at a store or restaurant or getting my vehicle hi-jacked. At this point it is a robbery. Should you re-act in trying to stop the robbery innocent by-standers may get hurt by you if the bullet hits the robber and goes through the body or by the robber shooting back in self defense. The only way that I will react is if I feel my life or someone else's life is in danger and they come in shooting up the place immediately. I can always replace my wallet, or my vehicle, but not a human life.

BHP FAN
February 6, 2010, 09:01 PM
Amen to that...but how do you know the thug's intentions? perhaps after relieving you of your wallet and your wife of her grandmother's jewelry,he'll shoot you both in the face so that he won't be ID'd by you two,from a police line-up?

Phydeaux642
February 6, 2010, 10:05 PM
Having a license to carry does not make us cops...even if you were inside facing the shotgun, the best choice would be to follow directions unless you were in imminent danger.

If I'm facing a shotgun, I think that I may consider that to be imminent danger.:evil:

Make no mistake, I am NOT looking to defend any bank or business and would only consider drawing a weapon if my life depended on it. Like I said, I am not looking for face time on the evening news by trying to be a hero. And, I do understand that a shotgun trumps a handgun every time.

What got me to thinking about this is what some have said in this thread concerning the likelihood of being in a situation like this. Many people believe that because of where they live or the time of day it is or where they are in their city that they will likely never be put in a situation to defend themselves. I say that that is bunk. The minute you walk out of your house everything changes because you don't know what the other guy is going to do. Granted, the odds are still slim that something will happen, but why assume that something will not happen. This incident took place in the afternoon in a well traveled GOOD neighborhood.

I can carry a snubbie .38 all of the time, so, that's what I will do from now on. I will not leave the house again thinking "Well, today I think I will travel lighter because I don't smell trouble in the air." Trouble can be around every corner.

NMGonzo
February 6, 2010, 10:28 PM
A mouse gun is enough if you shoot them in the head while they are not looking ...

billdeserthills
February 6, 2010, 10:32 PM
Dude,
You gotta have at least two guns, I won't leave my house without three.
Today I carried an STI EDGE .45acp- 15 round mag, a Kel-Tec P3AT .380acp and a .357 Mag Derringer.

Phydeaux642
February 6, 2010, 10:48 PM
A mouse gun is enough if you shoot them in the head while they are not looking ...


I'm not quite sure how to respond to that.

Dude,
You gotta have at least two guns, I won't leave my house without three.
Today I carried an STI EDGE .45acp- 15 round mag, a Kel-Tec P3AT .380acp and a .357 Mag Derringer.

I have a friend like this. He carries a Para double-stack with two reloads and an HK squeezer with two reloads all on his belt. He then has four or five knives and a half a dozen flashlights on him. I'm surprised he can keep his pants up.

James T Thomas
February 7, 2010, 03:28 PM
"Now" is a good time to rethink I think.

uspJ
February 7, 2010, 09:21 PM
i recently picked up a glock 26 for this very reason. i put the +3 extensions on the mags. i carried a keltec pf9 for a good while but just didn't like the capacity and long trigger pull despite it being the most comfortable gun i have ever carried. the glock is alot bulkier but i don't feel undergunned. i keep the pf9 in the car for times when the glock would be harder to conceal.

ms6852
February 7, 2010, 11:54 PM
The key to carrying a mouse gun or snubbie is practice. I always practice at 25 yds and 50 yds with my 38 snub nose. I am confident that if I can hit a paper plate at those distances with my snubbie I can hit whomever I happen to aim at should the time ever come. I feel that at those distances most people will not practice enough and miss and if it is a gunshot I have a greater chance of surviving unless its buckshot or a slug. Just my own way of thinking and philosphy. This is what works for me in my mind. Because I also know that at a closer distances they will get hit by me. I practice with my 1911 the same way but I up the distance to 75yds and 100yds.

kgpcr
February 8, 2010, 12:11 AM
I loved the one response about "aim for the CNS" during a gunfight. Clearly that person had never been in a gun fight. The first time i traded fire in the Marines it was not like any thing i thought it would be.

ms6852
February 8, 2010, 12:24 AM
Yeah, I crapped my pants too.

pikid89
February 8, 2010, 12:39 AM
I can't conceal a shotgun.
You're not trying hard enough....

serbu super shorty

MachIVshooter
February 8, 2010, 12:44 AM
You gotta have at least two guns, I won't leave my house without three.
Today I carried an STI EDGE .45acp- 15 round mag, a Kel-Tec P3AT .380acp and a .357 Mag Derringer.

Your perogative, not mine. And that's fine. If you wanna carry around 15 pounds of gear, more power to ya. I think I speak for a majority here (and in the entire CCW community) when I say that one is adequate.

And something else to think about. It's gonna depend a bit on your locale, but if you are involved in a defensive shooting, even a good one, carrying so much firepower is gonna increase scrutiny. It's the whole "he was so heavily armed, he had to have been looking for trouble and found it" argument. That's not gonna reflect favorably with a grand jury when they decide whether or not to indict. Most sheeple don't even understand carrying A gun, let alone multiple weapons. The general attitude from non-gunnies is gonna be that you're a little off. And since you're counting on human judgement to keep you in the clear, you might want to think about how they may judge.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6? Yes. But I'd prefer neither.

Shadow 7D
February 8, 2010, 12:44 AM
It's a trade off, like at least one person has already said, we're not the cops (unless you are, then you have department SOP's to follow) As a CCW holder, you have to make the choice. I carry a P32 because it's easy for me to carry, and small enough that most times my wife doesn't notice (and hence bitch) when I'm packing. I live in a safe place and if I though I was going to a war, I'd pack like it, but then I'd get funny looks walking around strapped to the nines like a swat officer.

As for stopping a back robbery, most are over in less than a minute, and unless it's an active shooter, or hostage situation, some danger to me, sucks buy that is why they carry insurance. I'll stay safe and be a good witness.

NMGonzo
February 8, 2010, 01:03 AM
I'm not quite sure how to respond to that.

well ... you don;t want to quick draw and fire when the perp is pointing the shotgun in your general direction ... right?

ArchAngelCD
February 8, 2010, 02:28 AM
IMO it really wouldn't have mattered what you were carrying since you have no obligation to stop a bank robbery as long as no one was in danger of being killed. I wholly agree with the others, no matter what handgun you were carrying you would have been under-gunned against a shotgun.

MachIVshooter
February 8, 2010, 12:08 PM
I wholly agree with the others, no matter what handgun you were carrying you would have been under-gunned against a shotgun.

I don't agree with that at all. A shotgun is not a magical talisman, and if the person weilding it does not know how to use it (or load it with appropriate ammunition), it's no more or less a threat than a pistol. Except for slugs, shotguns are relatively ineffective at defeating barriers, so your cover is just as good as it would be if the BG had a handgun.

Outgunned while carrying a handgun to me means that your opponent has a rifle and is firing at you from a greater distance than what you can effectively engage him. That's a lot farther than the confines of a bank, convenience store, etc.

RonBernert
February 8, 2010, 03:41 PM
Having a license to carry does not make us cops...even if you were inside facing the shotgun, the best choice would be to follow directions unless you were in imminent danger.

Tough to swallow maybe, but the truth.
+1.

This is a fact.

harmon rabb
February 8, 2010, 04:16 PM
I'm not quite sure how to respond to that.

depending upon the state, that could be 100% legal. in florida, if you were in the bank, and a guy was robbing it with a shotgun, it would be 100% legal for you to shoot the robber in the back of the head without him even being aware of your presence.

Ben86
February 8, 2010, 05:03 PM
I think it might be good to get something bigger than a .32 for "lazy carry" as I affectionately call it.

Don't go around carrying to stop bank robberies. They're money is insured. Only shoot if you, or another is obviously, absolutely about to get hurt.

orionengnr
February 8, 2010, 11:03 PM
Yeah, I have owned and carried .32, .380. j-frame .38 and .357s.

The first two were unreliable and the last two were not (for me) shootable to an accurate degree. All are long gone.

I am not a big boy...50+ years old, 5'9" and 150 lbs. But I conceal, carry and shoot (reasonably well) a 4" 1911 or a 4" N-frame.

I still own a .380 and two 9mms. I just don't carry them.

My choice, and it may not be yours. That is fine.

VerdeVolpe
February 8, 2010, 11:09 PM
I always use the bank's drive-thru teller.






With an M&P 340 next to me. It's a wee bit more powerful than the P32 I had.

DAdams
February 8, 2010, 11:21 PM
With an M&P 340 next to me.

Excellent choice. Light enough for the pocket robust enough for .357 and those wonderful XS night sites.

Confederate
February 8, 2010, 11:26 PM
In such a robbery, you'd be better off with the mouse gun. I'd hate to think you might be tempted to do something with a better handgun caliber. A shotgun is nothing to go against with a handgun. A torso hit with a .357 might work, but that would be only if you got a clear clean shot or had cover from a good distance. In some states, if you had that much distance, you might not be justified in shooting.

jlg
February 8, 2010, 11:58 PM
Technically you're not supposed to be carrying in a bank

MachIVshooter
February 9, 2010, 12:21 AM
Technically you're not supposed to be carrying in a bank

Says who? Post office, no-no. But banks are a private business. They can post no weapons signs, but that doesn't necessarily carry the weight of law.

PigButtons
February 9, 2010, 12:33 AM
Technically you're not supposed to be carrying in a bank.

That's not true in AL. Here the only locations forbidden by state law are political events and schools if you intend harm. The feds restrict Post Offices and building owners can restrict by posting signs and or providing security to prevent.

I also agree that unless I'm sure there is an imminent threat I will not draw my weapon. That said, if the BG has a gun he has shown intent.

Inside most branch banks (I'm thinking 15 yards) a shotgun will have a pattern no larger than a softball. The BG still has to be a pretty good shot. I will seek cover and make my choices as the scene unfolds.

And shot placement is king. Shooting under stress is difficult at best, you'd better have some great training and practice under your belt if you expect to perform in real gun fights.

Maj.Striker
February 9, 2010, 09:47 AM
I also agree that unless I'm sure there is an imminent threat I will not draw my weapon. That said, if the BG has a gun he has shown intent.


I'm not sure I'd agree with that logic and good luck convincing a judge and jury of that...you have a gun, does that mean you have intent?

At any rate, I'd be very careful how I played that scenario...even if by some means you got the drop on him and put your lead on target and he somehow missed you with his shotgun, its very likely he would be hitting someone else inside the bank.

So, drawing a "mouse gun" and going up against a desperate man with a shotgun? In my home, absolutely. Inside a crowded bank where the guy most likely will get a handful/sackful of money and run only to be picked up by the police a week later, probably not.

Jamie C.
February 9, 2010, 01:03 PM
Mouse guns.... I like 'em.

Why? Because there's almost no reason at all not to carry one. And by that, I mean that no matter how you dress, you can probably conceal at least one Kel-tec, NAA mini, or something of the like. For that matter, if you're fat enough, or at least wear a hat, you could probably conceal one while out at a nude beach. :what::D
Can't say that for you Glock or 1911.

Remember too, that us "civilians" carry a gun for defense, and not to go storming hills or bunkers. And even little bullets can cause the bad guys to want to find another victim.


So, no, I'm not gonna retire my mouse guns any time soon.


J.C.

PigButtons
February 9, 2010, 11:10 PM
Maj.Striker
I think most judges and jury members can distinguish 'intent' between a bank robber with a shotgun demanding money and a CCW permitted citizen protecting lives. Having a gun on your person is not the same as using one to commit a felony. That's why many states have special laws covering using a gun in the committing of a crime.

Also I didn't say I would automatically open fire but rather evaluate the situation. If I felt that he was going to walk away without hurting anyone, good riddance. But I wouldn't feel anymore in danger from a shotgun than from a 9mm for example. Some people feel that a shotgun is some sort of magic killing machine. Think back to when Vice Pres. Cheney shot his friend in the face. The man was old and shot at fairly close range and was out of the hospital in less than a week.

My point was that any weapon well used is just as likely to kill or injure as any other. The most often used assassin's weapon is the 22lr. A mouse gun round to the ear, eye, or nose will kill as well as a shotgun blast.

But I never want to be in that situation, Lord willing none of us will.

Ben86
February 10, 2010, 01:14 AM
But I wouldn't feel anymore in danger from a shotgun than from a 9mm for example.

Yeah, ok.

Jamie C.
February 10, 2010, 03:15 AM
Yeah, ok.

Unless the shotgun is firing slugs, the 9mm has the potential to kill far more people at one time, and at a farther distance. Especially if the ammo is hardball.


J.C.

Triggernosis
February 10, 2010, 08:53 AM
....Think back to when Vice Pres. Cheney shot his friend in the face. The man was old and shot at fairly close range and was out of the hospital in less than a week....

Yes, and he obviously caught the edge of the pattern from a bird-choked gun.
I can guarantee you that if I shoot someone with a shotgun with any load of #4 or larger, at close range, they's gonna be phucked up......

PX15
February 10, 2010, 09:24 AM
PB:

Respectfully I have to think you lack appreciation for the damage offered by a shotgun round, especially when loaded with proper ammunition..

I doubt seriously any respectful bank robber is going to have his shotgun loaded with birdshot, and if you don't think a shotgun loaded with buckshot deserves more respect than a 9mm pistol I suggest you haven't had the opportunity to observe what happens with a full load of 00 or say #4 buckshot is fired at a target from up close and personal.:what:

I LOVE the 9MM pistol, and in fact have 7-8 of them. But I have two 12ga. pump shotguns, loaded with #4 buckshot, and I assure you IF the situation ever comes up and I need to defend myself AND have a choice to what to defend myself with, it'll be one of the darn shotguns, I guarantee you that.

No offense,

Jesse

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_0895_01.jpg

heeler
February 10, 2010, 10:47 AM
I got a lot of healthy respect for any shotgun after seeing what they can do.
I related this story some time back on another thread but here it is again.
We were up at our deer lease a few years ago for some dove hunting and work to get the place ready for deer season.
That morning two of the guys took off down the ranch road to get in some dove hunting and they had not been gone but maybe a minute when I heard two quick shotgun blasts.
They came back right away for the truck.
One of the guys was armed with an old Ithaca model 37 pump 20 gauge with low base number 8 shot in it when two feral hogs ran right past them.
He got off two quick shots at about twenty feet and killed BOTH hogs dead as a hammer with well aimed and timed head shots.
Hogs are a lot tougher than any man that has ever been born.
None the less they were dead on the spot.
Shotgun blasts at close range are quite deadly even with bird shot.

Jim PHL
February 10, 2010, 11:20 AM
I bought in the distance past .22's and .25's for pocket carry. Bought a Kel-Tec .32 when they were first introduced then traded up to the Kel-Tec "P3AT" (.380) when they first came out. I don't own any of them anymore.

My smallest gun these days in both size and caliber is a j-frame .38. For me, it wasn't the tales of mouse guns being unreliable (mine were fine) and it wasn't that they couldn't be shot accurately (paper plates at 7 yards: check). For me it was simple ballistics. I'm no expert, not claiming to be, and never witnessed an actual shooting or even seen a gunshot wound in person - hope not to from any angle - I just feel more comfortable with a treasury load or something similar than anything that can be achieved in anything .380 or smaller.

Even a BB gun is threatening when presented in an offensive manner, but if I ever need to use my carry gun I will need it to STOP some type of offensive attack, not scare someone into giving up their wallet, and prefer a bigger, heavier bullet to attempt that.

I don't try to find fault with anyone's choice for a carry gun, and I do believe that "the small one you have on you is better than the big one you left home". Also nothing of decent power is more easily carried than a KT .380 in my experience. I just decided for myself that my bottom is the .38 and I do what I need to do to have it with me. It's not really that much heavier for pocket carry (although admittedly larger). For me it's a j-frame in my pocket or an auto IWB.

Above is all just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it. (Maybe not even that much.)

Ben86
February 10, 2010, 07:29 PM
Unless the shotgun is firing slugs, the 9mm has the potential to kill far more people at one time, and at a farther distance. Especially if the ammo is hardball.

I am really impressed how you rationalized this.

gym
February 10, 2010, 08:24 PM
I go 38+p or 9mm as minimum. Ultralight titanium snubby, or a keltec. My Glocks are just too big in Fl, as I like to dress light. Next stop is that new Baretta px4 with 13 rounds of 9mm, to replace my G23. I feel that I would rather have a couple extra rounds than go for the 40 cal again. My seacamp sit's alone these days, many a time it was dressed and ready to go out on the town, but alas, it was too small in 32 to comfort my heart. 45 is the way to go if possible, it sleeps next to me at night, the wife and dog on the other side.

c01
February 10, 2010, 08:42 PM
OP, I know how you feel. I was at the park yesterday (Spokane) and 4 gang bangers walked by.They were trailing another gang member from another gang. I know..situational awareness let me down. I felt my hip....LCP. Felt like I had a squirt gun.

Jamie C.
February 10, 2010, 09:09 PM
I am really impressed how you rationalized this.

There's no rationalizing involved; I've just fired a lot of both 9mm and 12 ga. in quite a lot of different loadings, at quite a lot of different targets, at varying ranges, and know what both will or will not do.

Can you say the same?


J.C.

makarovnik
February 10, 2010, 09:17 PM
For a casual night out I would think the P32 is OK as a primary gun but I like to think of it as a backup. I would feel under gunned with it during a bank robbery though. Next time you go to a bank robbery, bring something bigger.

PigButtons
February 11, 2010, 01:12 AM
I want to see if this makes sense.

1 00 buck shot = about 3.4 grams
1 gram = 15.43236 grains
So 3.4 x 15.43236 = 52.470024 grains (Wikipedia lists it at 53.8 take your pick)

Velocity on a 3" 12ga goes up to about 1330 fps.

Closest equivalent hand gun round.
32 Automatic 55grains Glaser Safety Slug 1200 fps

So if penetration depth is key in causing death, each pellet is no more likely to kill you than the 32 automatic slug. And therefore the mouse gun is just as likely to lead to death as the 12ga shotgun. You may or may not get hit by more projectiles but each one will penetrate to approx the same depth.

Mark F
February 11, 2010, 07:51 AM
YES.

Nasty
February 11, 2010, 08:28 AM
These threads sure are interesting. To restate, we're not cops (God bless them).

I usually carry according to weather, dress and activity, right or wrong.

Beach - KT P32
Summer - KT PF9
Spring/Fall - Glock 27
Winter - Bersa UC45 in Stainless

The system works for me.

BTW, wouldn't it be at least interesting to be outside the bank at the honest to God bulletproof window with a cell phone during a heist?

Well...unless you pissed them off and they start shooting hostages anyway.

Repeat mantra "We're *not* cops"

If you enjoyed reading about "I'm Rethinking Mouseguns." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!