[Preacherman]

I've lived and worked in countries where what is described below happens on a daily basis - and almost never is brought to trial. Those of us living in the USA and other free countries might like to take the time to offer a small prayer of thanks that we don't live in the same sort of society.

And do please note the last paragraph... :fire: :fire: :fire:


From AZCentral (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1114HonorKilling14-ON.html):

Another 'honor' victim: Daughter, raped by brothers, killed by mother

Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson
Knight Ridder Newspapers

Nov. 14, 2003 12:20 PM

ABU QASH, West Bank - Rofayda Qaoud - raped by her brothers and impregnated - refused to commit suicide, her mother recalls, even after she bought the unwed teenager a razor with which to slit her wrists. So Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud says she did what she believes any good Palestinian parent would: restored her family's "honor" through murder.

Armed with a plastic bag, razor and wooden stick, Qaoud entered her sleeping daughter's room last Jan. 27. "Tonight you die, Rofayda," she told the girl, before wrapping the bag tightly around her head. Next, Qaoud sliced Rofayda's wrists, ignoring her muffled pleas of "No, mother, no!" After her daughter went limp, Qaoud struck her in the head with the stick.

Killing her sixth-born child took 20 minutes, Qaoud tells a visitor through a stream of tears and cigarettes that she smokes in rapid succession. "She killed me before I killed her," says the 43-year-old mother of nine. "I had to protect my children. This is the only way I could protect my family's honor."

The guilty brothers are in jail.

Qaoud's confessed crime, for which she must appear before a three-judge panel on Dec. 3, is one repeated almost weekly among Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Israel. Female virtue and virginity define a family's reputation in Arab cultures, so it's women who are punished if that reputation is perceived as sullied.

Victims' rights groups say the number of "honor crimes" appears to be climbing, but at the same time, getting little attention. Israelis and Palestinians are too busy with political and military issues to notice what they dismiss as domestic disputes, says Suad Abu-Dayyeh, who works for the Women's Center for Legal Aid and Counseling in East Jerusalem.

Poverty and war have exacerbated the problem, says Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian, a social work and criminology professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and an expert on violence against women.

"Men do not have any power except over women," she says.

Police in Israel investigated at least 18 honor killings in the past three years.

Palestinian police reported 31 cases in 2002 - up from five during the first half of 1999 - the last time such incidents were counted before the current Palestinian uprising began, according to the center's study.

But the number of killings is likely higher, given that Palestinian police investigate only crimes that have been reported, said Yousef Tarifi, the Ramallah prosecutor assigned to Qaoud's case. Shalhoub-Kevorkian says her past research showed the likely number to be 15 times higher than the number of reported cases.

Legal authority on the West Bank has been weakened by Israel's military crackdown, and the growing influence of militant Islamic factions has led clans to dole out their own justice. "In this chaotic situation, every man who thinks he knows a little bit of the Quran thinks honor issues are supposed to be resolved by killing," says Shalhoub-Kevorkian, who adds that leading Muslim clerics in Jerusalem and Jordan have denounced such killings.

Qaoud says her husband, Abdul Rahim, 52, told her the Quran forbade such killings. But neither his pleas nor those of Palestinian crisis counselors swayed her. "Why did she accept what happened to her?" Qaoud asks. "Even a wife can tell her husband 'no.' "

According to court records, Rofayda was raped by her brothers, Fahdi, 22, and Ali, 20, in a bedroom they shared in the family's three-room house. On Nov. 26, 2002, doctors at a nearby hospital who were treating Rofayda for an injured leg discovered she was eight months pregnant.

Palestinian authorities whisked her off to a women's shelter in Bethlehem, where she gave birth to a healthy boy on Dec. 23. He has since been adopted by another Palestinian family, court records show.

Rofayda, meanwhile, wanted to return to her parents in the Ramallah suburb of Abu Qash. Ramallah Gov. Mustafa Isa called a meeting with the family and village elders, demanding they pledge in writing not to harm the girl. "He asked me if everyone in the family and the village would promise not to bother this girl, but I told him I couldn't give him a guarantee," Abu Qash Mayor Faik Shalout says.

Rofayda returned home in late January without notifying the authorities.

The shame was unbearable, Qaoud said. Relatives and friends refused to speak to her family. Her elder daughters' husbands wouldn't allow them to visit because Rofayda had returned home.

On Jan. 27, Rofayda sent word that she was in danger to crisis counselors at Abu-Dayyeh's center in East Jerusalem. They, in turn, called Palestinian police in Ramallah, who have jurisdiction over Abu Qash. The police said they couldn't get to the Qaoud home because of Israeli checkpoints.

Qaoud, meanwhile, sent her husband, who suffers from heart disease, to a doctor in the nearby village of Bir Zeit. Her three youngest children went to a cousin's house.

At 11:30 p.m. she killed Rofayda, court records show. Tarifi says he's convinced Qaoud had an accomplice, but Qaoud insists she acted alone.

Qaoud turned herself in and, after four months in jail, was released pending the resolution of her case.

While honor killings committed in the heat of the moment - for example, by a husband who catches his wife in bed with another man - generally carry a six-month to one-year jail term, Qaoud will likely be sentenced to three to five years in prison, Tarifi says. The fact she is a mother who was trying to protect her family's honor mitigates the crime of premeditated murder, which is punishable by death under Palestinian law, he adds.

The brothers are serving minimum 10-year sentences in a Palestinian jail in the West Bank city of Jericho for statutory rape of a relative, Tarifi says.

No trace of Rofayda or her brothers remains in the family home. Qaoud says she ripped up all of their photographs and burned their clothes. The bedroom in which she killed her daughter is now a storeroom.

Erasing the memories is harder, she admits. She eases her pain by doting on her three children still living at home, especially the youngest, Fatima, 9, whom she lavishes with kisses. The children say they've forgiven Qaoud and return her affection.

"My mother did this because she does not want us to be punished by people," Fatima explains with a shy smile. Leaning into Qaoud's arms, the little girl adds: "I love my mother much more now than before."

[Preacherman]

BTW, please don't blame Islam for this. Islam does NOT teach this sort of thing - it's grown up in a male-dominated culture, and has nothing to do with the religion in question.

[Bill Hook]

I certainly hope Islam doesn't approve of incest. If the mother really wanted to protect the family's honor, she should've killed her two beastial sons, perhaps by chopping off a certain extremity.

[Mark Tyson]

It is not blaming Islam to say that there is a seriously messed up culture over there.

And they complain about our materialism and our risque television! Shesh.

Once again: not Islam. Local cultural conditions are to blame. We have localized cultures of violence and depravity here in the USA too.

[whoami]

BTW, please don't blame Islam for this. Islam does NOT teach this sort of thing - it's grown up in a male-dominated culture, and has nothing to do with the religion in question.

It's like what's going on in areas in Africa, w/ regards to AIDS. People wonder why the disease spreads so rapidly, but when you have cultural notions like a woman having to have sex (musn't be with a condom!) with a 'cleanser' (more often than not the town drunk) upon becoming a widow to rid her of the spirit of her dead husband.

I think it has less to do with male dominated culture, and more to do with the fact that some cultures (NOT races, NOT religions) have shown little real societal progress over the last thousand years or so. It's like they almost refuse to, in a sense, evolve. We're dealing with cultural mores that, while acceptable in far gone times, are not viable in this day and age. The question is how to handle this.....

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

I think it was Golda Meir that said, to paraphrase, that there will be peace "when palestinian mothers love their children more than they hate Israel..."

I apologize if anybody is offended, but it is a ripe and cogent quote in this case.

When brutality occurs, and life blood is spilled, because of a "loss of honor," something that could have been worked through, regardless of the situation. Where is the honor in raping your sibling and killing your children?

I was in the ME on a mission working with a group of people in an area not too far away from there (shhhh, If I Tell You, I Will Have To.......), and I almost had my throat cut because I muffed a translation and they thought I was disparaging the Virgin Mary!

Yeah, its a culture thing.

[Sean Smith]

Most people in the civilized world haven't the foggiest concept of what the third world is really like.

The AIDS pandemic in Africa is largely facilitated by what passes for "culture" there... including some endemic sex practices that would be considered torture here.

Ever heard of "female circumcision" (aka: Female Genital Mutilation)? Blandly moderate sources suggest the astounding figure of 6,000/day.

Then there are the boringly normal massacres, stonings, "honor" killings, killing off "worthless" girl babies, pointless vendettas, mass rapes, and so forth.

Having seen a bit of it sort of makes me upset in a way that so many people are blithely unaware of the reality of most of the Earth's "cultures" and spend so much time bitching about their first world qualitiy of life. :barf:

[Standing Wolf]

This is the only way I could protect my family's honor.

That has nothing to do with honor and everything to do with brute savagry.

[XLMiguel]

Nice "Family Values.":barf:

[Bill Hook]

Neal Boortz really skewered the Palestinians today over this incident.

[MicroBalrog]

Make no mistake, Orthodox Jews can often get almost as brutal in such cases.

[F4GIB]

But... the New York Times assures us that Islam is a "religion of peace."

[mtnbkr]

The question is how to handle this.....

Quite simple. Isolate them, shun them. Just because they are "human" doesn't mean we have to associate with them. Do you welcome people who's actions and values disgust you into your home? Why should the rest of humanity do the same for small pockets of homo sapiens who are every bit as repugnant?

BTW, I am not referring to Muslims. This operates at a lower level than religion.

Chris

[Jim March]

It really isn't Islam.

The Arabs have had a truly twisted view of female sexuality since LONG before Mohammed came along.

In fact, there's a passage in the Koran in which Mohammed convinces a father not to kill his pre-teen daughter. The religious practice before Islam was to kill off one daughter before her first period so that she "died pure" and helped the family somehow. Really sick. To his credit, Mohammed put a stop to that crap and in other ways tried to fix this inherently broken aspect of Arab culture.

But as seen here, it hasn't all faded out.

It's like...well, a parallel example in the Christian world is that some pre-Christian religious practices managed to survive and mix with Christianity. Spring fertility rites turned into easter eggs and rabbits (fertility symbols), then there's Halloween, etc. A surprising number, depending on who you ask. But they're all pretty harmless, about the worst bit left is the practical jokes element of Halloween.

There was some REALLY sick garbage in the pre-Islamic Arab world. Even the remnants of it seen today are stomach-churning.

It really isn't Islam at all that causes the horrors documented above.

[mantispid]

An interesting philosophical question.... Can you hold these people responsible for this action? What I mean is, if you have grown up in a culture where this sort of 'honor killing' is accepted an encouraged, how can you know what you are doing is wrong?

It's like being raised to think that stealing is perfectly acceptable... Is the person really responsible for their actions in such a case?


This practice of "honor killings" is seriously f*'d up. But, these people are acting as if it wasn't that big of a deal... Like it was making a morning cup of coffee or something.


I believe in personal responsibility.. but a person needs to have some concept of right and wrong first. Insane people don't have such a concept... would it be proper to argue 'cultural insanity'?

[HankB]

. . . please don't blame Islam for this. The actions of Moslems sure seem to generate need for an enormous number of excuses, and disclaimers, don't they?

When some "Christian" wacko commits an atrocity in the name of his religion, condemnation comes, fast and furious, from all quarters - INCLUDING most Christians.

But when we listen for condemnation of this kind of murderous savagery from the rest of the Moslem world, just about all we hear is a deafening silence. Maybe a rare peep here or there from some isolated PR flack, but that's it.

Religion of Peace.

Yeah.

Right. :rolleyes:

[tyme]

Why rant about Islam? Let's not forget that centuries ago, Christians did the same thing that a few Muslims are doing today. Of course, religion was a generally accepted reason for killing back then... Christianity wasn't alone. But while today a few radical muslims are blowing themselves up, we have Christians in Congress telling us that mandatory references to God are okay in government-run schools. Those same Christians are trying to figure out a way to ban gay marriage and prohibit all abortions. Those same Christians would be trying to figure out how to outlaw "deviant" forms of sex if they thought they could get away with it.

And let's not forget a former Christian president's comments about athiesm...
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.
-GHWB

and guess who's in the whitehouse now? His son.
I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision.
-GWB

Unfortunately, some people are more equal than others. Even more unfortunately, "some people" means "christian americans" rather than "americans." Bush is contributing the same elitism to Christianity that radical muslims use to promote their religion and to urge eradication of the West. His father doesn't even think I'm a citizen! I'm probably a foreign/enemy combatant in Bush-land. :uhoh:

[chaim]

Make no mistake, Orthodox Jews can often get almost as brutal in such cases. Gee, really? I'm an Orthodox Jew, I know more than one person who has been raped (none by friends, family members or members of the Jewish community BTW), and I don't know one who has been treated unkindly, let alone murdered, by their family members and friends. How about speaking from facts and not blind hatred of those of us who are religious from now on please.:fire:

[Balog]

Uhhh, isn't Micro in Israel? Not saying I agree w/ him, just that he might be more qualified to speak about that culture.

[chaim]

Uhhh, isn't Micro in Israel? Not saying I agree w/ him, just that he might be more qualified to speak about that culture. You think that a secular Israeli Jew knows more about Orthodox Judaism than an American Orthodox Jew!?:confused: And if you just think he knows more about Israeli Orthodox Jews than you don't know much about the divisions in Israeli society. I probably know more Israeli Orthodox Jews than he does. He may have seen a few around, and being Shinui we know he is anti-Orthodox, but I actually know well a few Israeli Orthodox Jews as well as American Orthodox Jews who spend in some cases many years studying in Israeli Yeshivas. So tell me again why he is more qualified to speak to the character types and practices of Orthodox Jews be they in the US or Israel.

[carpettbaggerr]

It's like being raised to think that stealing is perfectly acceptable... Is the person really responsible for their actions in such a case?

Perhaps not. No more than a rabid dog is responsible for it's actions. But they still have to be put down whether responsible or not.

[MicroBalrog]

and being Shinui we know he is anti-Orthodox

THAT is interesting in itself. Shinui isn't an anti-Orthodox party! It's a "separation of synagogue and state" party. They oppose stuff like banning non-religious marriage for Jews, banning the sale of bread on Passover, opposing same-sex unions (at all) and having state-financed religious schools (that don't teach basic maths).

On other subjects, Orthodox and National Orthodox Jews are different.

The latter join the Army, found settlements, and support the RKBA (a rare thing here).

The former dodge the draft and have nice things like "Decency Watch" in their community. They have also distributed leaflets promoting death penalty for women wearing "indecent" clothing. Don't tell me this isn't true, I read those.:fire:

[Phyphor]

MB, good to see that you're a Jew with a brainsack, unlike the ones you mentioned..........

[mantispid]

Perhaps not. No more than a rabid dog is responsible for it's actions. But they still have to be put down whether responsible or not.

That's an excellent point. And it's also the best reason I've heard for trying to alter or eliminate another culture.

[Oleg Volk]

British response to widow-burning in India comes to mind...

Easy test for acceptability of behavior is whether or not rights of another person are violated...but that becomes less easy when it comes to dependents. For example, spanking kids might be considered infliction of traumatizing violence by some, while infanticide would be viewed as reasonable by others.

[OF]

while infanticide would be viewed as reasonable by others.I guess that's one way to stop behavior. This poor girls 'behavior' that needed changing was getting raped by her brothers. After she made that mistake, her next behavior that needed changing was refusing to kill herself.

I could care less whatsomeone's opinion on something is, whether they find it 'reasonable' or not. Like Oleg, it all comes down to freedom and individual rights. If you choose of your own free will to accept and be beholden to a set of cultural or religious mores, that may include asking for your suicide, and you kill yourself, that's your choice. But you do not get to, as a society or group, decide that people are going to have to participate in your customs, barbaric or otherwise, against their individual will.

Freedom and individual rights. You either believe in it or you don't.

- Gabe

[chaim]

THAT is interesting in itself. Shinui isn't an anti-Orthodox partyThen why do most of their pronouncements solely attack Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox parties (for those here who don't know Israel there are political parties to represent pretty much every small interest group- from about a dozen religious parties, to Arab interests, to secular interests, to outright Communists, Anarchists,etc).

As for the dropping state sponsored Orthodox schools that is especially telling. For those who don't know the education system in Israel there are a few truly private schools (but not many). The state provides funds for about a dozen school systems, from National Religious (Zionist and Orthodox), to purely secular, to basically Communist, to Arab, to "Black Hat" (Yeshivish and Chassidic) Orthodox. Many of these systems, like large systems everywhere, are corrupt. Yet the only one they attack are the Orthodox schools. Incidentally most of the religious schools do indeed teach math (all of the National Religious schools teach secular studies, and the Haredi teach the minimum the state requires). With all the dozens of school systems, and abuses in most, Shinui is only calling for cutting off Orthodox schools, yet somehow they aren't anti-Orthodox??? :confused:

On other subjects, Orthodox and National Orthodox Jews are different.

The latter join the Army, found settlements, and support the RKBA (a rare thing here).

The former dodge the draft
Please do try to be more honest.

Some Orthodox in Israel (most Haredi) do not get drafted. Full-time study in Yeshiva is one of about a dozen catagories that provides a draft excemption. Most Orthodox men, in Israel and in the US, spend many years in Yeshiva (it is not so they don't have to serve, it is because we believe in learning and serving G-d). Honestly taking a deferrment that is there is not really "dodging".

Additionally many Orthodox do indeed serve. The National Religious are Orthodox. Last numbers I saw are that about 30% of the total officer corps is National Religious while 50+% of the junior officers (those under 30) are National Religious (Orthodox). Additionally, many serve as enlisted soldiers, and they disproportionally serve in combat units. Also, before you change your attack to "only" the Haredi let me point out the unit in Nahal (an infantry unit BTW) that is a Haredi unit, an entire unit made up of Haredi, and a handful have always served in National Religious units (I personally know a few Haredi who have served in National Religious units). Heck, there is even a very popular set-up where people can split their time between Yeshiva and their unit in the Army.

We are as likely as non-religious Jews to own guns and support gun ownership (most of the Orthodox Jews I know from Israel own guns), and settlements (while I won't get into if they are a good or bad thing) are not a religious only thing (there are plenty of secular settlements).

They have also distributed leaflets promoting death penalty...

Here I won't comment on whether it exists or not since I've never seen it and it is pretty much impossible to prove something's non-existance. However, I will point out a few things about the death penalty in Jewish law, something either you don't know, or you are being intentionally misleading since outside Jewish practices the "death penalty" has a very different meaning.

First, there are many things under Jewish Law (Halacha) that deserve the death penalty (including breaking the sabbath). We do not go around killing sabbath breakers (and never really have). What it means is that certain behavior deserves the death penalty. However, G-d, not us, administers it. If you do something requiring the death penalty you may well die prematurely (when born we all have a set number of years, an experation date so to speak, and if we do too many sins, especially certain kinds, we may die earlier). Also, when there is a human administered death penalty (there hasn't been in thousands of years) it is very strict. There must be 2 witnesses who warn the transgressor that they see the action and that it is a death penalty offense. Even so a beis din is very hesitant to institute the death penalty to the degree that a beis din (Jewish court) that puts someone to death more than once every seventy years is blood thirsty.

So, even if true, the meaning is very different from what you are implying here.

[Betty]

Let's get back to the topic, shall we? :scrutiny:

[chaim]

Sorry Betty, I just can't let an outright attack on my religion go unanswered (the comment leading to it was a charge that Orthodox Jews are "almost as brutal" in similar cases which more than implied was that we are violent and engage in "honor killings"- an outright lie). I am willing to let it go now, but I will have to respond to any more false charges (it is a religious obligation- I am not allowed to let lies about my religion go unanswered, especially in a setting where people might believe those lies, remember that throughout the centuries millions of us were murdered over people believing slanderous lies about us so we don't take this lightly). I hope you understand and I do apologize for helping to bring this off topic.

[MicroBalrog]

Then why do most of their pronouncements solely attack Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox parties

Because these parties oppose separation of church (synagogue) and state. IIRC the National Orthodox (as you call it, the National Religious) Party (MAFDAL) is allied with Shinui.

AND: None of the "other" educational systems should be gov-funded IMHO. One government - one government school system. Note though that ONLY the Orthodox (aka Haredi) school system was sued by it's students for malpractice (you may do this in this country).

We are as likely as non-religious Jews to own guns and support gun ownership

In fact more so. I take your point. Of course, 99.999999% of Israelis think gun control is a good idea.:banghead:

So, even if true, the meaning is very different from what you are implying here.

"These women should be shot" sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Full-time study in Yeshiva is one of about a dozen catagories that provides a draft excemption.

Note to foreigners: Full-time study in University does not.

/end off-topic rant.

[chaim]

MB, thank you for toning it down a bit. Since you've toned it down, I can too. Maybe this can be our last such exchange on this thread- I don't wish for you and I to cause the moderators to have to shut down this thread (since this is an off-topic discussion).

Anyway, for the pamphlets, I again direct you to my partial discussion on death penalty offenses. Additionally, for a human death penalty the Temple must be standing, and in addition to the two witnesses and the warning a chance must be given for the person to change their behavior. So taking a pamphlet, that might exist, that if it does was written for an audience that understands all the nuances of what it means to deserve the death penalty (thus they were speaking academically and not calling for wholesale slaughter) is at best misleading (though I am willing to grant that you weren't intentionally misleading).

Just to end this let me jump to your last point. It is unfortunately true that University studies is not an eligible catagory for deferement. It should be. However, taking that injustice and then arguing for another isn't the right track (yeshiva students should be encouraged to study in yeshiva plus most aren't really physically fit enough- though personally I'd have nothing wrong with a Haredi administered Hesder Yeshiva system). Especially today when many who are eligible for the draft either aren't drafted or are drafted for a shorter period than in the past, most Americans would be shocked to learn that the Israeli military has been drawing down a bit. The smarter, and fairer, solution would be to work to get university study included as eligible for deferrement.

Anyway, let us end this discussion now (especially on what for both of us has been a bit more concilliatory a note) before we get this thread shut down. If you want to continue then please PM me, but I doubt if we'll really change each other's minds.