[cutnhrse]

I have an 1860 Army made by Uberti. I am wondering if it is ok to use Laser Cast bullets in it and how much Pyrodex P I can REALLY use for a safe, max/hunting load. Also curiouse as to what I need to do to prep the wad cutters before loading.

[Pulp]

I wouldn't recommend Laser Cast bullets, unless you've got a conversion cylinder that allows you to use .45 Colt. I don't think you could even seat a LaserCast bullet in the cylinder. They are too hard. You need lead bullets that are soft enough to scratch with your fingernail.

For your load, you'll need a BP measure. Set it to 30 grains then use it to measure your Pyro P. That would not actually weigh 30 grains, as Pyro is less dense than BP. If you can easily seat your bullet over a 30 grain load, then start working up until your bullet seats just below the rim of the cylinder. That will be your maximum load.

[cutnhrse]

I bought this gun as a cheaper alternative to 45LC and was told I could get close to if not the same perfomance.
Is there a solder that I could cast non lead balls from? I am trying to keep from using any kind of lead.
Is there a good conical mold that I could use, or something a little more accurate than a ball? I have shot lead balls out of it and... Well, not what I'm looking for. Someone told me just to shoot copper jacketed, patched bullets, but they also said it would wear the barrel out.

[SixShootinSam]

What Pulp said.
Anything but lead is simply too hard for these guns, if not dangerous to use.

[cutnhrse]

Well, guess I won't be shootin' it anymore then... Wife asked me not to use lead around the house with the little one here.

[ontarget]

If that's what you are looking for IMO you bought the wrong gun.
As for performance, you may want to experiment a little more.
You could use lead conical bullets but a round ball is very accurate and effective.
May I suggest that you and your better half look into the REAL dangers of lead.
Not the propaganda out there to sell millions of gallons of new paint and plumbing parts.

[cutnhrse]

Not that I "mind" lead all that much. But, with little boys around that get into EVERYTHING, you can't take chances. With kids, it all goes straight to the mouth first.

[sltm1]

You can buy lead balls pre cast ya know. Put them in a lock box with your other bp gear and tiny hands and open mouths won't be effected. Also, don't let him eat any paint chips LOL. By the way, as far as I know, LaserCast are primarily lead based with antimony as a hardener.

[cutnhrse]

The wife asks me not to keep lead around, sooo... I've been using True Shot for a long time and they are non lead alloy(or atleast it says it is). Thought that Laser cast was close to the same.

[cutnhrse]

Well, looks like I'm gonna have to have a long talk with someone... I was also told that if you can get the Buffalo Ball-ets, they are the best for accuracy, loading, and getting the biggest charge... If you can get them Can anyone confirm this?

[ontarget]

Lead round balls. Lock them up and don"t let the kids play with your guns till they are about 4 or 5 years old. The lead in a solid Non-vapor state is harmless unless eaten.

[cutnhrse]

I think she is more worried about times when I get up to get a drink and stuff. But, not a big deal.... Maybe.

[rcflint]

If you aren't allowed to use lead, you aren't going to shoot... Lasercast, or any other bullet you will buy are lead. Alloys of lead, but they are all lead. Even full metal jacket bullets are lead with a copper jacket over the front end, the rear is exposed lead.

Non-lead shot for shotgun hunting is available, but the metals used for shot are not appropriate for handgun cartridges, and certainly not for cap & ball, which, others have stated, must be, whether conical or round, made of pure lead, no alloy.

Buffalo Bullets are also.... pure lead.

As a kid groing up in the 40s/50s, we cast lead soldiers and played with mercury... we are most all of us still here, and those who aren't died from some other cause, unless the lead that killed them was met the hard way on a battlefield like Korea or Viet Nam.....

[cutnhrse]

Umm, thanks man... Helps alot.

[Oyeboten]

You'll get vastly more Lead in your system from the Coffee Filters and other food-paper things in daily use, tap-water, corporatefarm veggies, corporatefactory-raised meat, handling newspapers, your own or neighbor's fireplaces, on and on and on, than you will ever get by handling Lead Bullets for loading/reloading Cap and Ball.


When I was a kid also, me and many other kids all melted Lead for hours and hours, cast things, played with old Lead 'Soldiers', rolled busted Thermometer Mercury in our palms, coated new Pennies with it so they went 'Silver' etc...

There's probably a thousand times as much Lead and Mercury in people's kids systems from the vaccines everyone has their childen get, that those kids would ever have gotten playing with Lead Soldiers.


It is not anything to worry about in these simple contexts of having Lead Cap and Ball Balls in the house or Lead Bullets for plinking and so on...all this got hyped into absurdity by special interest lobbies buying senators and other pimps for coercing markets for stuff they sell, and sell big...selling hysteria and really bad expensive 'solutions' most of all.

[arcticap]

The firearm primers that are made of lead staphnate release vapors containing lead when they're fired.
Yet many very young children begin shooting smallbore and air rifles competitively in ventilated environments and also regularly handle ammunition, .22 lr bullets and lead pellets and never suffer any negative consequences as a result.

As with any hazardous substance in any modern household, they all need to be locked away and kept out of the reach of toddlers.
Youth competitors are taught to wash their hands after handling ammunition.
And there are many much more toxic and deadly household chemicals and medicines then lead in the average American home.
Being armed with the facts is the best way to combat an overly sensitive or negative attitude toward lead bullets, especially when the solution is as simple as keeping any hazardous materials out of the reach of young children which should already be a practice in any household with young children present anyway.
Electrical outlets are considered to be a hazard for young children too. :)

[BullRunBear]

I have the Uberti 1860 Army. It is very accurate, at least to 25 yards, with round ball but the ammo has to be pure lead. There is no substitute for that. If I still hunted, I would not hesitate to use it for small game. But even loaded to the maximum (which probably won't be the most accurate) it delivers only the power of a 38 special which isn't really adequate for larger game. You would have to check with your state's regulations but the 1860 might not be legal for hunting anything except small game. I don't know who told you about using modern bullets in a cap and ball revolver, but they don't know what they are talking about.

If you are truly interested in handgun hunting for deer or wild boar size game, sell the Uberti and put the money towards a 7.5 inch barrel Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt. You can buy high power modern ammo for it. If you reload, forget casting your own bullets and just buy the suitable commercial ones. Keep the bullets and loaded ammo under lock and key. In fact all the relaoding gear: press, powder, primers, bullets and loaded ammo, etc., can fit in a small footlocker secured with a padlock. Wash your hands after handling the bullets and ammo. Unless your kid can pick the lock he'll be as safe as if the lead was in another state. It's no different tan any other "kid proofing" you might do.

No offense, but your wife's concern about solid lead is unfounded. As long as the kid can't suck on the bullet, there's no danger. If you can't convince her of that, forget firearms and take up archery.

Jeff

[mykeal]

Come on guys. Her concern is actually quite well founded. Lead is very poisonous to small children and we all know it. "As long as he doesn't suck on it..." Well, that's the problem, isn't it? She's worried that if the lead is around, even under lock and key, that the child will find a way to get into it, and she has a point. They're very good at doing things like that. And I personally commend her husband for respecting her views.

I'm not saying that a small child can pick a lock; I'm saying that we're all human and sometimes things are forgotten, like securing the lock when you're distracted by a phone call, or the lock doesn't get fully closed - it looks secure but really isn't. It only takes one small mistake to have a catastrophic event. When it comes to protecting small children there isn't any gray area - you do everything you can.

It was stated earlier that education is the best solution here, and I fully agree with that. The best way to cure a child's curiosity and keep them from playing with dangerous items like firearms and lead balls is to show them the items and give them a chance to satisfy that curiosity, while at the same time explaining that these are dangerous objects, not toys to be played with.

Firearms and dangerous (to children) items like lead balls must be kept locked away. But locks create curiosity, and kids will test them to see what's behind them. Allow the child to see what's under lock and key, and educate them as to the fact that they can hurt someone and they will soon lose interest in the 'secret place'.

The spouse should participate in this education, of course, and getting her involved will help to alleviate her fear as well. This won't be easy, but it's the only really safe alternative to having to give up the sport altogether.

[cutnhrse]

Thanks, mykeal. Like I stated before, she is concerned about times when I get up to get a drink, or answer the phone when I have this stuff out. He is two years old now and knows not to touch a real gun, but instead bring his toy guns in with mine. But, he doesn't understand that the bullets aren't to be messed with. He still doesn't quite understand what they are.
I started this thread to get info on getting the maximum out of my 1860, not to get "schooled" by a bunch of personal opinions about toxicidy. Nor, to have my wifes concern as a medical proffessional burned. It is her concern and I will try and respect it. In doing so I came here to see if there was an alternative. Doesn't mean I will stop shooting, just means I will TRY and find another route for her and my childs sake.
Now, back to the real subject. I have decided to try the Buffalo "Ball-ets". Do they really work as good as they say? Were they worth the $15? Also, is there anything I can do to beef up my 60 besides Ampco nipples?

[cutnhrse]

Oh, and by the way... There is another way to get the same consistancy as lead, without having to use it. I just choose not to because of the price, although I have done it before. You can use Gamo, Diablo, or Skenco pellets to melt down and cast. It gets to be really expensive.
Now, I have a slough of 45LC pistols that I use for hogs. The reason I bought this one is because I'm tired of paying $1.20 a round for crap factory and $1.65 for Buffalo Bore's(which is what I usually shoot). I haven't had a BP gun since I was a kid and never have owned a C&B revolver, but I kept hearing that I can get excellent performance out of it and save alot of $$. No one told me how to get excellent performance though.

[arcticap]

I have decided to try the Buffalo "Ball-ets". Do they really work as good as they say?

The following thread becomes more relevant beginning with post #14:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=136743&highlight=buffalo+bullets

[sltm1]

Performance. Ctnhrse. These are tried and true methods.
1. Start w/ a specific load (20g fff is low but a good starting point).
2. Choose between conical and rb
3. Decide whether to use a lubed wad or something like BoreButter or Crisco over the chamber mouths for preventing chain fireing.
4. Figure out whether to use # 10 or #11 caps (check for fit obviously).
5. Set up a 20-25yd target.
After you've done those things, fire off a 5 rnd cylinder with your chosen combination. Don't worry too much about POA (hitting the bullseye), at this point, concentrate on your grouping, use a bench rest. If you cloverleafed everything with an experimental intermediate sized load, don't change a thing! Chances are you'll get a grouping instead. Staying with either the rb or conical, increase the load 3-5g and do another cylinder continue up to 35g, 40max, but I don't think you can put a lubed wad in without crushing the powder some (never tried it). You will at one point find a load that gives you the best grouping, that's what your gun like to eat!!! If you're not satisfied, use the other type of projectile and start over. I would swab the barrel after each clyinder to be sure fouling isn't hurting your accuracy. For shooting POA, you can either raise the front site or file down the "v" notch in the hammer. For adjusting my POA, I installed a tall dove tail front sight and adjusted it accordingly. Think I covered enough for you to get started. Have fun!!

[cutnhrse]

Thanks you sltm1. Good info. Is there anything else I can do to beef up my 60 or keep it in good shape besides the Treso/Ampco nipples. Better wedges, base pin, springs??

[sltm1]

Springs break, you should have some spares on hand. You can switch nipples if you want to, but that's just personal taste as far as I can see, mine have been holding up fine......DON"T DRY FIRE THE GUN, that's what breaks nipples. Clean after shooting. Some folks do a total breakdown, I don't except for after 7-10 shootings (outings). Always take the nipples out when cleaning the cylinder and a touch of oil on the threads before replacing. Man, there's a gazilloin things to learn....the devils in the details w/ bp shooting. Buy a Fadala book or 2, he's quite the scholar on bp shooting. Send me a PM and I'll give you my ph# if you want to talk.

[Meralain]

I have several cap and ball pistols, a Ruger Old Army, 2 1851 brass frames in .44, and a .36cal 1851 steel frame. You DO NOT want to use laser cast bullets in your 1860!!!! They can and will make for a dangerous situation by increasing the pressures beyond what the open frame can handle. If you want to use this as a backup or primary hunting gun, I would recommend a pure lead cast conical, and 20-35 grains of FFF Black Powder. As far as the ins and outs, here is a brief summary of what I have learned over the last 15 years or so of shooting these guns: Pyrodex is a killer to remove. Don't use it. It contains chlorides--read bleach--that are harmful to metal if not completely removed. I have a pitted barrel to prove it. The best bullet lube I have ever used is a mixture of Crisco and bees wax. Melt it together until you get a lube that is solid at room temp, about like refrigerated butter. Sorry I don't have the exact ratio, it is written down somewhere in my gun box... As far as a load goes, each pistol I own is different. The best way to find the load is at a range, and a few shots at a time with a known powder measure. As far as cleaning goes, if you use Black Powder, water is amazing. Lots of patches, a toothbrush and hot water works wonders. When I am satisfied the gun is clean, I oil the internals with a good quality gun oil, and the barrel with the crisco/beeswax mixture. I take my pistols down to parade rest every other shooting session, and I find that if I try to extend that things get a little dicey. Another tip I read from Elmer Keith that I find really useful, is I put a "wonder wad" between the powder charge and the bullet, and I find that I see better groupings. As for nipples, you may find that a better quality nipple will benefit your pistol, I see quite a bit of variation in the quality of the factory nipples. As far as the lead dangers go, they exist. I deal with the danger by keeping my lead out of reach of little hands, locked up. When I am working with lead, I make sure that no one who is not aware of the danger can come in contact with it, and I do NOT melt any lead indoors. Springs do break as sltm1 mentioned, but they are easy enough and cheap to replace.
Saved the most important part for last: These pistols are a true joy to learn how to shoot and maintain, and the experience remains fun year after year. Good Luck and Enjoy!

[mykeal]

Merlain - welcome to the forum. Interesting post. I do have one question.
You DO NOT want to use laser cast bullets in your 1860!!!! They can and will make for a dangerous situation by increasing the pressures beyond what the open frame can handle.
What pressure is it that the open top frame can't handle?

[Meralain]

The hardness of the alloy in laser cast bullets increases the force required to drive it down the barrel. That increases the gas pressure in the gun beyond what it is designed to handle. Keep in mind that these firearms are designed around technology from the 1860's, and are built of mostly the same materials. If you increase the pressure in the gun enough, it can cause the frame to bend, or break during firing. If you have ever owned a brass framed pistol, you are aware of the fact that they have a limited life span. As they are shot, the frame slowly stretches and bends, and at some point gets out of spec to the point it is unsafe to fire the pistol without major work. In the 1860 frame, it is steel, but still open at the top of the pistol and not as strong as say a 'p' frame Colt. If you ram enough hard lead through it it will make something move. I have seen a 3 rd gen. Colt that had the cylinder arbor stretched, by trying to ram a bullet home that was slightly oversize, or perhaps started crooked. The same thing happens when you fire a hard round, it exerts forces on the frame, arbor, and general assembly of the gun it was never intended to handle. Anyway, I hope this answers your question! :)

[cutnhrse]

I appreciate everyones info so don't think I'm goin' on and on being ungreatful. I'm not
But in my quest for knowledge I decided to go to the man that I bought the pistol from since he is also the one that told me I could shoot hard cast cutters and jackets out od this gun.
So, I went and he actually shot 245 gr hard cast rnfp's out of his dragoon for me.
Some things he said were the following and not only made me think but made total sense:

If you can't shoot hard cast or copper out of one of these things then how is it that all you have to do to shoot 45LC out of it, is buy a different cylinder?
You should remove the cylinder to load the gun. It puts less stress on it.
Using a seating press is the ONLY way to seat a conical or SWC, ect in the cylinder straight.
If a hard cast has too much pressure then how can you shoot a conical out of it? A soft cast conical checks itself in the barrel and allows almost no gasses to escape past the bullet holding in all the pressure. Gasses slip past a hard cast or jacketed and alot of it leaves before the bullet.
You can shoot copper but with the "oh, so wonderful" Italian lapping process it will wear the barrel out quick. You can aleviate a little bit of that by impregnating your own bullets and polishing out the barrel. The kit costs $15, you should do it anyway if you want good performance.
If your worried about pressure I can spin you a chrome moly base pin and it will never come apart.

These are the things that he told me and I'm not 100% sure it is true, but heck, it makes complete sense through and through. As for powder, I think I will use Triple seven. He said P is good for bigger bore, muzzleloading pistols and they handle it better. But Triple seven is better for C&B. I will replace the base pin spring with the piano wire type and install Treso nipples. I might even go as far as replacing the factory base pin with a chrome moly one. I have also decided to buy a Triple P seating press and for now I will shoot the Buffalo Ball-ets I bought. I might try some hard cast swc's some day. But other than that, I'm not sure what else I can, should, or shouldn't do.

[mykeal]

The hardness of the alloy in laser cast bullets increases the force required to drive it down the barrel. That increases the gas pressure in the gun beyond what it is designed to handle.
I'm aware of the physics of the harder projectile material creating a higher peak pressure in the cylinder chamber. I completely disagree that the peak pressure in the chamber will rise beyond design ultimate or even design limit pressures using black powder. If you have pressure data please provide a citation.
Keep in mind that these firearms are designed around technology from the 1860's, and are built of mostly the same materials.
In fact that's not correct. It is true that the steels used in modern replica cylinders are 'softer' than those used in current cartridge firearms, but they are not 'weaker'. They are proof tested to values well beyond design limit pressure. Again, if you have data regarding material properties showing the cylinder stresses could be exceeded please provide a citation.

If you increase the pressure in the gun enough, it can cause the frame to bend, or break during firing.
This is the statement I have the most trouble with. 'Pressure' exists in the cylinder chamber. The failure mode due to excessive pressure in the chamber is to rupture the cylinder wall. Bending or breaking the frame is of absolutely no consequence when a cylinder ruptures; even if it were to fail, and I submit there's never been an instance of that happening with black powder, the real problem is the shrapnel from the cylinder. Now, it is true that repeated exposure to high recoil loads can damage the recoil shield on brass frame guns, but I don't see any mechanism that would cause frame failure due to chamber overpressures. Can you provide any references to actual incidents (note the plural) of that occurrence from black powder?

[cutnhrse]

I'm going to have to agree with mykeal on the materials. I have some Colt thunderers and lightnings and a unfired 58 Remington New Army. That New Army weighs ALOT more than a modern one and just by looking at the steel in the Colts you can tell the metalurgy is way worse than anything of today. The Remington feels more like a lead brick and when you pull on the loading lever it feels like it would bend easily. I have a brand new/in the box Colt 3rd dragoon made in the 50's and it and the Remington weigh about the same. A newer New Army weighs alot less than that. You have to think that no matter where you are in the world, now matter how bad that countries metal is, thier processing technology is still 150 years newer than it was when these pistols originally came out. I would go as far as to say that that old metal feels and looks more along the lines of pewter in comparison to modern steel.

[Old Cannonballs]

I haven't looked into it myself, but I've heard from a usually reliable source that you can cast round balls from pewter and shoot them in bp rifles and pistols. There is also a lead-free plumber's solder that is almost the same makeup as pewter but costs less than pewter that you can supposedly use as well. Either way, though, it costs more than lead.

[robhof]

Good luck with the Triple P loader; I think he's out of business, I've tried contacting him for months and there was a few blogs from others that had already sent money. I ended up getting one from Powder Inc., close and works fine, I had to make an arbor for my 31 Colt clone though.

[Oyeboten]

Far as I know...

Cap and Ball Revolver, or, very old Metallic Cartridge Revolvers...Pure Lead was the material suited for their Bullets, whatever shape those Bullets may be.

Pure Lead will slump or upset enough when accelerated in BP Revolver loadings, sealing off Gas leaks around it, and, widening itself into the Rifling.


Copper Jacket Bullets will not slump or upset enough at the rate of acceleration which is probable in a BP era Revolver, and, in a Cap and Ball Revolver, will have to to fit into the front of the Cylinder to load, making for a poor Barrel-Rifling Fit once they do not upset, or, if in a Metallic Cartridge BP era revolver, if they are the right size at all, having to be squeezed down by the Forcing Cone, then, and being a lot harder to squeeze, will delay the Bullet's acceleration slightly, while pressure, or, more importantly maybe, duration of rising pressure, continues behind it, stressing the Cylinder and Forcing cone area.


Legends abound of people melting down Pewter or Britannia Metal in a pinch, for casting Balls for Rifles...this does not mean it worked well, or did not suffer accuracy issues, even if patched, as they would have been for use in Muzzle Loading Long Arms.


The Metal would be too hard to slump or upset very well to press itself and or it's surrounding Patch into the Rifling...and would be a lot worse in a Revolver or Single Shot Muzzle Loading Pistol.

In a Cap and Ball Revolver, the results would be terrible, if the Balls even stayed in the Cylinders on their own at all.

Of course, you can shoot Gravel, old Screws, Birdshot, Nuts and Bolts, Carpet Tacks, small chunks of broken Glass, stacks of Washers, or anything else, over a thich enough wad and top-wad for that matter.


Plain, pure, soft Lead...is what these Arms were meant to use...whatever the Bullet shape, and, is what will work best in them.

[cutnhrse]

Ok, well I found a gunsmith here where I live. He is a curraitor for a handfull of museums and he told me basically the same thing as the guy I bought the gun off of.
He told me that I can shoot hard cast as long as it is seated correctly and that round balls are never going to give me the performance I could get with a semi wad cutter. As for loading it correctly, in his words... "You wouldn't load a bullet in a case crooked would you? Treat your gun the same as you would your cartridge pistol". He told me not to compare these repros to any old firearm of the era. That they are not even close to the same as in terms of strength. He said it would be the same as comparing a Uberti SAA to an old Colt, further talking about how you would never see an old Colt be able to shoot 357 Mag or any MODERN loaded smokeless rounds without issues.
He said that I could shoot copper but what a waste of money. Jacketed bullets are too expensive and hard cast would do fine. That goes back to the retorricle question of, "If you cant shoot jacketed bullets out of a C&B, then why is it to shoot jacketed bullets, all you have to do is buy a conversion cylinder"?
Makes sense to me! Not that I'm going to shoot jacketed bullets. It also makes sense that it is a waste.

[Matt-J2]

The shooting isn't the problem. Not sure it ever was. It's the loading of them that's a bit tricky. Me, I'm not going to try and shove a jacketed bullet down a chamber when it needs to be so tight as to make a seal. Wouldn't even want to try it with a hard cast bullet, either, while we're at it. Just takes more effort than I reckon it's worth, and I'm not even certain you'll get all that much more performance out of it. Cast bullets do actually need to fit the bore, not be smaller than. Otherwise you get leading of the barrel, and a bullet that's too hard for the speed/pressures involved can lead to quite a bit of leading.(leading not guaranteed...or desired) Just some things to think on.

[Fingers McGee]

cutnhrse,

Shooting hard cast bullets, whatever the shape, is not the problem. You can shoot hard cast bullets out of a conversion cylinder all day long with good accuracy and no ill effects. Loading them in the chamber of a percussion cylinder and sealing them to prevent gas leakage is the problem. Soft lead bullets will swage to a tight fit in the chamber where a hard cast will not.

As far as round ball vs conical bullets goes, back in '02 (long time ago), soldiers using the '60 Armies, and '51 Navies found they got better accuracy with round balls vs conicals. Nowdays, there are soft lead conicals with beveled bases and large lube grooves that reportedly work very well (I've not had the opportunity to try any - yet); but, they were specifically engineered for use in C&B revolvers, and are cast from soft lead.

When you get around to trying your hard cast semiwadcutters, let us know how it turns out. I'm fairly certain you'll change your tune.

[cutnhrse]

Fingers,
I get what you're sayin' about loading them straight. Thats where the seating press comes in. I'm not going to try it anytime soon. When you talked about beveled edged conicals, I actually bought 150 Buffalo Ball-ets. So, I'll be using those for quite some time. If I like them, I may never shoot anything but that. They seem to be semi hard cast though. Thought they were soft cast, but they don't seem to be. Good for me because they won't splatter on a hogs gristle plate!