Accidental Discharge -1911


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BP Hunter
February 10, 2010, 01:25 PM
I am seriously thinking of purcahsing my first 1911. I am thinking of getting the Kimber Ultra Carry II to replace my Kel Tec PF9 as my CCW. Pistols like the Glock with the safety trigger keeps the gun from shooting ulness you pull the trigger, the Springfield XD has the safety trigger and the grip to prevent firing unless all mechanisms are engaged, some other guns have the decocker. The 1911's are carried cocked and locked. Are they on top of the list on accidental discharges? I might be wrong here, so please correct me.

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rcmodel
February 10, 2010, 01:30 PM
Well, they are probably way way under the number of ND's involving Glocks.

For one, you don't have to pull the trigger on a 1911 to get the slide off to clean it.
And you can't possibly pull the trigger when holstering it if you have brains enough to put the safety on first.

A 1911 is about as safe as a gun can get if you take the time to learn to use it properly.

rc

gunhack
February 10, 2010, 01:35 PM
My understanding was that the 1911 was originally issued to be carried condition-3 (hammer down on an empty chamber with a loaded magazine)... if you're not comfortable carrying condition-1 (cocked & locked), carry condition-3 and learn to charge the weapon upon presentation.. I have done so for years... shot IDPA that way... but then I have not ever been in a gun fight...

ljnowell
February 10, 2010, 01:36 PM
Guns dont have Accidental Discharges, people do. The gun make doesnt matter.

Just One Shot
February 10, 2010, 01:39 PM
The 1911 is a great gun but.......It's not my idea of the best choice for CC.

There are many more options that are lighter, more accurate, have higher capacity and easier to conceal.

But, if that's what you want then go for it.

Quack
February 10, 2010, 01:39 PM
1911's are safer to carry than a Glock. i just don't buy into the little trigger safety thing, because if anything accidentally gets in the way of the trigger, it will go off. with the 1911, you have the manual thumb safety.

the fear of carrying a 1911 is knowing that there is a visible cocked hammer.

Quack
February 10, 2010, 01:44 PM
read points L and M in Section VII

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/194020FM2023-2520TM.gif

BP Hunter
February 10, 2010, 01:44 PM
My other carry is the Taurus PT145 which holds 10+1 in .45. The pull of the trigger is just too long, though I have gotten use to it. Holding a similar 1911 in 3" - Colt Defender - yesterday in the store made me think twice. Yes the 1911 holds 3 less but tghe feel and trigger felt so right.

The Wiry Irishman
February 10, 2010, 01:46 PM
I think the OPs logic is a bit backwards. There aren't too many if any guns currently made that, properly maintained, can fire without the trigger being pulled. Therefor the biggest source of accidental discharges will be operator negligence, ie someone pulling the trigger when they shouldn't. Which do you think this would be more succeptible to this, a gun with all passive safeties that requires nothing more than a trigger pull to fire, or a gun with two external safties that must be deactivated before a trigger pull will result in a discharge?

As ljnowell said, though, if you carry the gun in a proper holster that fully covers the trigger gaurd, what kind of gun you have is irrellevant. The real safety is between your ears.

MICHAEL T
February 10, 2010, 01:47 PM
Never hear of 1911 Leg . But heard of glock leg A 1911 is safer to carry have thumb safety you must push off. Grip safety and on most newer 1911 firing pin block till trigger is pulled .

EddieNFL
February 10, 2010, 02:23 PM
There are many more options that are lighter, more accurate, have higher capacity and easier to conceal.

Yep, it's all I can do to shoot single hole five shot groups at 25 yards and it weighs a whopping 2.5 pounds (several pounds lighter than my wife's purse). It's so difficult to conceal, I haven't tucked in my shirt for over 30 years. It holds only nine rounds, so I can't use the "hold it sideways and crank on the trigger" method favored by many. I have to actually use the sights.

Sarcasm aside, what works for one man may be a disaster for another.

mec
February 10, 2010, 02:32 PM
Sections L and M are interesting. My father was Navy CBs in WWII. They almost always carried the 1911 chamber empty. In North Africa, there was some incident or incidents involving the native people. At that time his people were told to load the chamber/cock and lock when going to town and although the natives were their allies, shoot them if necessary and be prepared to be fined the cost of the cartridge.

SSN Vet
February 10, 2010, 02:48 PM
The pull of the trigger is just too long, though I have gotten use to it

Speaking as someone who has carried both the DAO PT-111 and the SA/DA PT-111 extensively, once you have a chance to shoot a SAO 1911 you'll immedialtely understand why they have been so popular for so long. Be prepared to see a dramatic improvement in your marksmanship.

Put your PT-145 on top of that Colt Defender and I think you'll be surprised about the size difference.

There are many more options that are lighter, more accurate, have higher capacity and easier to conceal.

I can see each point except the "more accurate" one. Could you please identify an auto-loader in .45 acp that is lighter and easier to conceal that is also more accurate than a 1911? Inquiring minds want to know.

The OP is talking about a Cold Defender... not a 5" steel framed GI model.

NMGonzo
February 10, 2010, 02:54 PM
The 1911 is a great gun but.......It's not my idea of the best choice for CC.

There are many more options that are lighter ...


I hear ya, but I shoot better with heavier guns.

Double Naught Spy
February 10, 2010, 02:56 PM
Guns dont have Accidental Discharges, people do. The gun make doesnt matter.

This is wrong on many levels.

Guns do have acciddental discharges. When a gun fires due to a mechanical malfunction of some sort, it is an accidental discharge. When a gun is fired unintentionally by a person, it is a negligent discharge.

Gun makes can matter, especially in regard to some poorly made guns.

There are many more options that are lighter, more accurate, have higher capacity and easier to conceal.

I don't know of any other guns that are more accurate than 1911s. That isn't to say the 1911 is the most accurate, only that I don't know of any that are more accurate, certainly none that are smaller, lighter, and easier to conceal. Their slim profile also makes them easy to conceal.

Willy G.
February 10, 2010, 03:19 PM
I am seriously thinking of purcahsing my first 1911. I am thinking of getting the Kimber Ultra Carry II to replace my Kel Tec PF9 as my CCW. Pistols like the Glock with the safety trigger keeps the gun from shooting ulness you pull the trigger, the Springfield XD has the safety trigger and the grip to prevent firing unless all mechanisms are engaged, some other guns have the decocker. The 1911's are carried cocked and locked. Are they on top of the list on accidental discharges? I might be wrong here, so please correct me.




Buy one, I did and carry IWB in a Silent Thunder. I feel as comfortable if not more than having my 442 in my front pocket or IWB. I don't get the whole "safe action trigger" thing, to me it's like having a revolver with a lighter trigger pull and no real safety to speak of.

51403847
February 10, 2010, 04:09 PM
Hello All:

This is my first post, and glad to be here.

Safety with an automatic is all in the hands of the owner, or as one guy said 'between the shooter's ears'.

I carried an old Remington-Rand for years when with the local S.D., one in the chamber, cocked & with the strap under the hammer. Never had a problem, never shot anyone, but had to draw several times.

It's all with where your mind is & your familiarity with the weapon.

51403847

easyg
February 10, 2010, 04:21 PM
Well, they are probably way way under the number of ND's involving Glocks.
Never hear of 1911 Leg . But heard of glock leg.
Yep, it's true....when Glock pistols came on to the scene they quickly revealed just how careless some guys were when handling their handguns.

Those folks who had been using revolvers for so long, with the typical heavy double-action revolver trigger-pull, and those who had been relying upon a manual safety, had developed some bad habits....
like fingering the trigger while holstering or when otherwise messing with the handgun.

Well, the Glock simply will not tolerate such sloppy technique and poor handling practice, and it's quick to point out your mistakes with a loud "BANG!".

But don't blame the pistol, blame the guy who had his finger on the trigger when he shouldn't have.

BP Hunter
February 10, 2010, 04:23 PM
Thanks for all your responses. All of gun owners, at least most of us, know basic gun safety. I just wanted to know if the 1911's vs othe popular pistols have a higher incidence rate of negligent discharge. I guess I meant to say negligent dischage versus accidental dsicharge. Thanks for the correction.

easyg
February 10, 2010, 04:23 PM
I don't know of any other guns that are more accurate than 1911s.
I do.

Just about any revolver fired single-action.
No slide moving, no barrel tilting, just a hammer falling.

RP88
February 10, 2010, 04:33 PM
There are many more options that are...more accurate

aside from the aforementioned SA revolvers - what are these options? When it comes to a duty/carry gun, none are going to be more accurate. Some will maybe match accuracy, but you're gonna be hard-pressed to beat a decent 1911 with anything other than a decent 1911.

rcmodel
February 10, 2010, 05:14 PM
I do.
Just about any revolver fired single-action.
National Match grade 1911's begin out-scoring Target revolvers in the late 50's early 60's.

By the late 1960's gun development of the semi-autos had made it impossible to win a top level NRA Bullseye match shooting a revolver.

I do agree that almost any good DA/SA revolver is easier to shoot really accurately then any of todays run-of-the mill combat tupperware guns though.

rc

KBintheSLC
February 10, 2010, 05:50 PM
Guns dont have Accidental Discharges, people do. The gun make doesnt matter.

Ditto... do your part to be safe, and no modern weapon will fire on it's own. That being said, pick the gun that has the ergonomics which suit you best. For me it's a Glock or a DA revolver due to its simplicity. For others, its a 1911. None of them will give you an excuse to be careless.

EddieNFL
February 10, 2010, 06:16 PM
When a gun fires due to a mechanical malfunction of some sort, it is an accidental discharge.

Most mechanical failures are caused by poor maintenance/gunsmithing. We're back to ND.

Zerodefect
February 10, 2010, 06:17 PM
The 1911 is less likely to ND than most any gun I can think of that still has a quick to action trigger. It really is a safe gun, it just gets a bad rep due to the scary cocked hammer. But I'd look into the Walther PPS, Kahr Pm9, Glock 26 befroe the 3" Kimber. Especially the Walther PPS, very nice.

The Glock and Glock type guns, need to be carefully reholstered. Not a problem because you don't need to hurry to reholster being that the threat has been eliminated. The striker fired guns are simple, don't pull the trigger and they don't go bang.

Decockers are for DA/SA guns like the Ruger P95, FN, HK, Berretta etc. I hate DA/SA guns with a passion.

Rule of thumb with all pistols. Get a good holster that covers the trigger and has good retention. Whether you carry the gun, or let it sit on the nightstand, I recommend keeping loaded pistols in a holster. An ounce of prevention.......

Crossbreed and CTAC are good, so are the Allesi holsters.

Willy G.
February 10, 2010, 06:18 PM
Interesting article.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

JTQ
February 10, 2010, 06:36 PM
like the Glock with the safety trigger keeps the gun from shooting ulness you pull the trigger
I know it is a legitimate safety feature used by many manufacturers, but I can't help but chuckle when I read that.

As mentioned above, besides the thumb safety, the 1911 has the grip safety.

You could make a case that the Glock is better than the 1911 in several ways, but I don't think safety is one of them.

Double Naught Spy
February 10, 2010, 07:04 PM
Most mechanical failures are caused by poor maintenance/gunsmithing. We're back to ND.
That would not be the case with Rem 700s. It isn't an issue of what happens most or least, but of what actually happens.

like the Glock with the safety trigger keeps the gun from shooting ulness you pull the trigger

There have been quite a few Glock NDs where the trigger was not "pulled." It gets depressed because the shooter still has a finger on the trigger and attempts to reholster, the downward force on the gun trapping the trigger finger at the mouth of the holster and causing the trigger to be depressed without actually being pulled.

EddieNFL
February 10, 2010, 07:19 PM
Not sure why M700s are exempt from poor maintenance/gunsmithing, but most unintentional discharges are human induced.

TheProf
February 10, 2010, 08:58 PM
Here's my concern with 1911 SA "cocked and locked"... the hammer is held "in tension". Should there be a mechanical failure, albeit rare, it is theoretically possible that if ALL the safety mechanisms fail (at the same time) , the hammer will slam down and cause the gun to fire.
This would not happen on a revolver...since the hammer is "at rest".

Am I correct on this? I would appreciate all constructive and educational input..

SharpsDressedMan
February 10, 2010, 09:11 PM
Let's get one thing straight with Glock AD's. About 99% of them involve the user having his finger on the trigger, not guns going off when dropped. Glocks get a bad rap, but it is USER ERROR that causes the Glock to go bang. Finger off trigger until INTENDING to fire, please. As far as the question goes, the 1911 is no more prone to AD's when dropped than any other gun that is cocked and locked, or cocked and unlocked.

MCEOD
February 10, 2010, 09:17 PM
I have carried both a full sized 1911 (with a rail no less) and a subcompact XD. With that said, here is my $0.02 on accuracy. As long as I can put two shot in an area the size of a mans chest, that's all the accuracy I need. If you do have to present your weapon, your adrenaline is going to so high that putting two shots through the same hole accuracy will be the last of your worries.

SSN Vet
February 10, 2010, 09:28 PM
it is theoretically possible that if ALL the safety mechanisms fail (at the same time) , the hammer will slam down and cause the gun to fire.

Well, on any 1911 with a firing pin block mechanism (i.e. Series 80 Colt) the hammer can fall all day long, but if you don't pull the trigger, the firing pin isn't going anywhere.

TheProf
February 10, 2010, 09:31 PM
I was not referring to AD or a gun being dropped. The scenario I had in mind is a gun that is sitting on top of a table....untouched. Should all the safety mechanisms fail at that moment...(for unknown reasons...let's say eventual wear and tear) ....wouldn't you agree that a "cocked and locked" 1911 (since the hammer is held in tension) will fire as opposed to a revolver whose hammer is "at rest"?

Please someone correct me if I am wrong... I would really like to carry a 1911.

SSN Vet
February 10, 2010, 09:42 PM
sitting on top of a table....untouched.

no pully trigger... no pushy plunger on firing pin block... no pully the block... no moving the firing pin... no moving the firing pin.... no go bang

EddieNFL
February 10, 2010, 09:44 PM
Your theory is correct. The odds are probably greater than winning the lottery, begin struck by lightning and learning Latin all on the same day.

ljnowell
February 10, 2010, 10:01 PM
This is wrong on many levels.

Guns do have acciddental discharges. When a gun fires due to a mechanical malfunction of some sort, it is an accidental discharge. When a gun is fired unintentionally by a person, it is a negligent discharge.

Gun makes can matter, especially in regard to some poorly made guns.

Thanks for overanylyzing a post. The OP used the term accidental, so I followed his lead, some people call it one way or the other. The "Negligent Discharge" is what was being described and implied. Thank you for derailing the thread and making me post to point that out.

Paints
February 11, 2010, 01:19 PM
Eddie said it well.

I think the statistics show that mistakes happen more often with Glocks than with 1911's. A shirt tail caught while reholstering can pull the trigger on a Glock. While a shirt tail could also pull the trigger on a revolver, but revolvers (and Sigs and CZs, etc.) have longer, stiffer DA triggers than Glocks.

The chance of an AD while reholstering a cocked and locked 1911 is very close to zero. I know I am not comfortable with a Glock, but I'm very comfortable with a 1911.

As has been mentioned, more likely is a finger on the trigger of a Glock while reholstering. The 1911 is safer since the safety will very likely be engaged at that point.

A 1911 requires ALL to be present before it will fire: cocked, safety off, hand on the grip, AND the trigger to be pulled. All the Glock requires is for the trigger to be pulled.

Chances for a 1911 to spontenously fire on it's own sitting on the kitchen table? Infinitesimal unless it is hit by a meteor coming through the ceiling, and then still pretty low!

Of course, if you want, we can point you to a youtube video that shows "only a professional like me can safely handle a Glock 40"....followed by a loud boom in a classroom of children! :(

harmon rabb
February 11, 2010, 01:57 PM
1911's are safer than glocks imo. you have three safeties at once = the thumb safety, the grip safety, and a firing pin block.

to get a 1911 to ad, you'd have to disengage the thumb safety, engage the grip safety, and pull the trigger. to get a glock to ad, you just have to pull the trigger.

smoothdraw
February 11, 2010, 03:00 PM
1911 is very safe with good trigger action to boot. Get a good holster.

EddieNFL
February 11, 2010, 03:06 PM
1911's are safer than glocks imo. you have three safeties at once = the thumb safety, the grip safety, and a firing pin block.

I agree with you, but I disagree.

The 1911 definitely has more safety features than a Glock, or any other make that immediately comes to mind. However, any firearm is only as safe as the jerk behind the trigger.

OldCavSoldier
February 11, 2010, 04:13 PM
Hey Prof: Lots of guys carry condition one M1911s and lots of guys carry in-the-spout Glocks. The VAST MAJORITY of BOTH groups have neither ADs nor NDs. If you want to carry a 1911, and carry it condition one, then carry it that way. Just make sure you properly maintain the piece and practice, practice, practice your "presentation." That, and keep your wits about you when un-holstering, placing it in the house, if there are any youngsters around, you know, things like that. Properly re-inforced muscle memory will stand you very well when you are tired.

My two cents..........

1911Tuner
February 11, 2010, 04:25 PM
Every time these discussions get lit off...sooner or later somebody tosses in the "What it ya drop it" thing. Must be a lotta butterfingered shooters is all I can say.

In what is now crowdin' 50 years of gunnin' and smiffin'...I've dropped two guns, neither of which went bang. I haven't seen more than a half-dozen guns dropped. None of those fired either.

Yet, the drop card is always played.

Do ya'll drop guns a lot?

earlthegoat2
February 11, 2010, 04:29 PM
I am of the opinion that any gun with a properly functioning manual safety is safer than any gun without one.

As for dropping them, I dropped my J frame on a carpeted floor once while it was still in its holster. No bang. Just dont try to grab for the gun as its falling.

xjmox14x
February 11, 2010, 04:41 PM
"Just don't try to grab for it while it's falling"

lol I can imagine slow-mo, wide-eyed, fingers in ears, and duck and cover...

BP Hunter
February 11, 2010, 04:57 PM
OK, gentlemen, I now understand it completely.:rolleyes: The 1911 is a safe gun to carry in condition 1. Yes, it looks scary at first seeing a hammer pulled back ready to strike. I know it also takes alot of purposeful movements to keep it safe. Yes, a good holster is what it needs. Thanks for all your inputs. Now all I need to do is to trade in some of my guns for a 1911. :)

xXxplosive
February 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
Start Trading...............you won't be sorry.

Magnumite
February 11, 2010, 06:15 PM
And gets lots of practice....especially dry fire (unloaded) both presenting the pistol (drawing) and pulling the trigger. No finger on the trigger until the pistol is pointed down "range".

With the hammer cocked (again, gun dry) work taking the safety off when presenting the pistol and putting it back on when lowering the pistol. You can't pull the trigger to put the safety on so you can do draw/presentations and lowering/reholstering practice that way to get completely familiar with the pistol.

I do this regularly and it is time well spent.

Double Naught Spy
February 11, 2010, 06:48 PM
Not sure why M700s are exempt from poor maintenance/gunsmithing, but most unintentional discharges are human induced.

Design flaw - followed by lawsuits. So when the rifles discharged, it was not a ND on behalf of the shooter. It was an AD.

EddieNFL
February 11, 2010, 07:06 PM
ND on behalf of Remington. You could add the owner if he was aware of the situation.

Rarely can an unintentional discharge be blamed solely on the gun. Excepting acts of God, I'm hard pressed to come up with a scenario.

smoothdraw
February 11, 2010, 09:29 PM
I traded my HK USP to fund my 1st 1911. Didn't looked back ever since. 1911 are good for competition shooting because of it's smooth trigger. Are good for carry because of slim profile, shoots a well proven ammunition in 45 ACP. And beautiful weapon to look at, to study and learn its history. It's very customizeable as well.

BCC
February 11, 2010, 09:42 PM
I have seen folk at the range, accustom to DA, fire a 1911 slightly before they intended.

I could see a HD situation, where an inexperienced person could fire a 1911 unintentionally. User error, sure. But more likely with a SA.

Having said that, my favorite guns are 1911's.

Paints
February 12, 2010, 08:24 AM
I have seen folk at the range, accustom to DA, fire a 1911 slightly before they intended.

I could see a HD situation, where an inexperienced person could fire a 1911 unintentionally. User error, sure. But more likely with a SA.

Having said that, my favorite guns are 1911's.
Ideally, no one should be inexperienced with a gun they use for self defense.

Recognizing that not everyone meets those ideals, I feel that a revolver is best for those people. Easier to confirm loaded/empty, goes bang when the trigger is pulled, rarely goes bang by accident.

rcmodel
February 12, 2010, 12:02 PM
I have seen folk at the range, accustom to DA, fire a 1911 slightly before they intended.I actually had a range safety officer shoot a hole in the ceiling with my .45 Colt SAA!

He ask if he could shoot it, as he had never fired a real .45 Colt SAA.
Apparently he thought you had to "throw down" with a SAA like the old time movie cowboys!

Only problem was, he had his finger on the trigger, and I have 2 3/4 - 3 pound triggers on all my SAA's!

Then, he had the audacity to say my Colt SAA was unsafe, and banned me from shooting it any further at "his" range until I had it "fixed".

rc

EddieNFL
February 12, 2010, 12:11 PM
RSO training does not indicate gun handling skills. IIRC, the only time we touched a firearm was during demonstrations on how to safely transfer a handgun from one person to another.

BP Hunter
February 12, 2010, 12:17 PM
Then, he had the audacity to say my Colt SAA was unsafe, and banned me from shooting it any further at "his" range until I had it "fixed".

I think the range officer was an idiot. He can't keep one gun safe, then the range is not safe.

SSN Vet
February 12, 2010, 12:57 PM
Then, he had the audacity to say my Colt SAA was unsafe, and banned me from shooting it any further at "his" range until I had it "fixed".

the classic "blame others for your own stupidity" tactic...

he should go into politics, as he would have a promising career there.

Girodin
February 12, 2010, 02:38 PM
A 1911 is perfectly safe to carry cocked and locked. A glock is perfectly safe to carry. I have and carry both weapons. The only caveat and it applies to both guns equally is that you need to use proper gun handling and a quality holster. If you do that either a 1911 or a glock will be perfectly safe.

ND are almost exclusively cause by improper weapon handling.

Paints
February 12, 2010, 03:27 PM
ND are almost exclusively cause by improper weapon handling.

Absolutely true.

However, some guns are safer with "less than perfect" handling than others.

If I know the safety is on with my 1911, I do not have to be fanatically careful about a shirttail catching in the trigger when reholstering. A Glock takes more care.

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