[MCgunner]

Anyone got some experience with 'em? I have an NAA .22 1 5/8" mini revolver I carry in a holster/grip. It's a second or third carry just because it's so small and light, why not? Might bail me out of a jam some day, never know. I'm kinda wondering if the super companion on the mag frame would compare to .22LR for power? I know one CAN shoot 1.0 grain Bullseye in the things, too, or have read that. Anyone with experience there?

I don't expect this thing to be any more accurate than my .22, but it should be fun if nothing else and it's only a couple hundred bucks. If I like it enough, I might get a spare cylinder or two (40 bucks each) and if I don't like the little grip, I'll get a .22 mag holster grip for it. The holster grip really helps on my LR, but the super companion has a little bigger birdshead that might actually work as a grip. :D

Anyway, any and all input on these, especially direct experience, chronographing, that sort of thing is much appreciated before I jump on one.

[MCgunner]

Mmm, I know there was an interesting old post on this subject and searched it up...:D

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=200522&highlight=mini+bullseye

[robhof]

I've got one and with 4f Goex it'll bounce off wallboard at 15'. I switched to 3f 777 and got complete pass throughs at same dist. Haven't found great accuracy with anything yet except cap fired 22 pellets at 10' which can give a 3" group. I haven't tried the smokless route yet as a long time B/p person; I'm reluctant to put smokeless in any B/p gun.

[Pulp]

I've never shot anything but the cartridge .22Mag. I'm disappointed in the velocities for the Mag, 850fps with CCI and 950fps with Winchester. I've read in the gun mags that you can expect the same performance with LR as you can the Mag, due to .22 Mag contains a slow burning rifle powder, and just doesn't have enough time in the short barrel to develop decent velocity.

That said, I still carry mine a lot, because it's so convenient. Actually too convenient. I've forgotten it was in my pocket and carried it to work more than once. Definite no-no for the company I worked for back then.

[BHP FAN]

I use Triple Seven it mine,and it is barky.

[MCgunner]

That said, I still carry mine a lot, because it's so convenient. Actually too convenient. I've forgotten it was in my pocket and carried it to work more than once. Definite no-no for the company I worked for back then.

Done the same thing. I have a .22LR 1 5/8" version and I only get around 700 fps out of mine, so the mag gives you over 100 fps more, apparently. Still, not that much, not what some think that carry these things for primaries. :rolleyes:

I just wanna play with this BP version, see what I can do with it. 3 buck is 25 cal, a little large, but I will cut open one of my 20 gauge 3 buck and see if I can cram one of those in a chamber. If they work, 5 rounds of 3 buck 20 gauge is under 5 dollars at Academy and a 5 round package gives me 100 rounds of ball. :D 4 buck would probably work better, but I don't wanna buy a whole bag of shot. Heck, I cut open 12 gauge 00 for my .31 Remmy, works fine. I think I'll order some extra bullets from NAA, though, too, 30 grain conicals I'll play with.

I AM going to try the bullseye. I don't wanna experiment outside the box too much, push pressures that I have no idea what I'm pushing. I'm hoping maybe the bullseye will be more accurate, if not any more powerful. I know it will be cleaner. On that old thread, they talk a lot about experimenting with different smokeless powders. That kinda talk is a might scary. I do have a chronograph and will be testing. All I have for BP is pyrodex P. I don't expect much out of that. I'd try 4F if I could buy a can of it anywhere within 500 miles. :rolleyes:

[madcratebuilder]

Like BHP FAN I use 777 in mine. Use it as intended, inside of five feet. It is a belly gun.

[EmGeeGeorge]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=504340

[MCgunner]

PM sent

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I own a couple of NAA .22 mini-mag revolvers. Shoot one of them every now and then. (maybe 5 shots once a year)..It's okay but I found that loading it up to the center line of the little dipper that come's with it (about the equivelent of a .22LR) is more accurate than the full 'magnum' load. I also use Triple Seven 3fff with mine. Sometimes if it's found that I need to go into a rough place I will carry it either in my shirt pocket or in the ankle holster. It'll get somebody off of you very quickly and very efficently. Truthfully what I consider to be my primary 'backup' is alway's one of my Uberti Colt Pocket .31's with a four inch barrel. I just drop it in my coat pocket or stick it in my front pants pocket and go on about my business. I can flat guarantee you that the .31 will knock somebody's ass a flopping...The .22 Mini Mag is alright. Hell, I'vd killed squirrels with mine out to about 25 feet with no real problem. (using the .22LR load. The full magnum load will make it jump a little too much to be accurate enough to absolutely depend on for knocking a squirrel out of a tree)....

[MCgunner]

Hmm, might need me some triple 7. :D

[batjka]

I shot a Freedom Arms mini with Bullseye. Worked fine. Didn't try it for accuracy or power, just to see how it works. It shot, no major issues.

I would really love to know the velocities, however. Thinking it should be close to the .22 Mag cartridge out of a 1-1/8 barrel. If that is true, it would make a Companion a pretty viable pocket weapon.

Gentlemen of the Charcoal,

Do you really carry a C&B revolver for protection? That's pretty interesting.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Yes I do. Always and forever....31 for a backup and a '58 or '47 for a belted sidearm. Sometimes a Cattleman's Carbine also. No problems. My guns do not misfire and I know how to shoot....

[batjka]

What kinds of velocities are you getting out of the .31? Just curious how it would stock up against the Companion with a Bullseye load.

[MCgunner]

I chronographed my .31 Remmy at something near 700 fps IIRC. That was with a pointy conical and pyrodex. I remember calculating energy and it was near bouts a .22 LR out of a 4" barrel. With the conical, should penetrate well.

I carry a pocket 9 or a .38 snub or a .357 revolver most times, but if I get this little toot and chronograph results impress me, I might just get a "holster grip" for it and carry it as an also gun. I carry my .22 version.

[batjka]

I have to warn you about shooting Bullseye in Super Companion, however. The chamber is much bigger than the Companion version so if you fill it with Bullseye using the measure provided, you might blow the cylinder. Maybe not, but who wants to experience that. If you use it with a smaller measure (1 gr) you might get erratic ignition. I have heard this from some people with experience shooting Bullseye in Companions. So a best bet for a Super Companion is 777. LR Companion can be shot with one gr of Bullseye no problem.

Super Companion loaded with 777 should give velocities of a cartridge .22 LR. Guess we'll see when you chronograph yours.

Please let us know of the results.

[MCgunner]

Thanks for the info. I have no intention of going over 1 grain with the bullseye. If it doesn't produce accuracy, well, it's a failure. I really want the super companion. Every little tiny bit of sight radius helps on those things. :D

I will report on my findings and chronographing. Might be a while before I can get down to the range, though, unless I can pack everything on my dirt bike. Don't have a 4x4 anymore.

[Fingers McGee]

I'm thinking I'm going to order an NAA super companion

Inquiring minds wnat to know........... Why???

Had one ..... PITA to load ...... Too small to handle well even with my medium sized fingers....... Not very accurate....... Not very powerful, If you ever had to shoot someone with it, it would only make them madder........PITA to clean ........ dumped it as soon as I could.

[robhof]

I also have a 31 and would much prefer it for back-up as I can keep it on target out to 30' much better than my NAA. They're both fun to shoot, but the stainless NAA is easier to clean.

[BHP FAN]

I bought the extra cylinder from Cabela's for mine.Fit was perfect.Now I can't tell which was the original cylinder,not that it matters,the fit is that good.Solves the PITA to load issue,for me.Also handier than carrying a ''possibles bag'' in the field,or on the trail.Accuracy isn't really a problem,since I bought it mainly for the noise.Cougers run at the first gunshot.With 777 the ''magnum'' is powerfull enough to dissuade an attacker,two or four footed,and it's small enough to carry in a folding knife's sheath,without scaring fellow hikers.

[MCgunner]

Fingers McGee, I just wanna play with this thing, wee what it'll do. I've been shooting black powder for over 35 years. Sure, they're a pain to load, so what? I don't carry 'em, I just like shooting them. But, I think this little gun COULD do some chores if it works out. I wanna play with it and see what I can make it do. A larger grip helps the shootability issues. I have a folding holster grip on my ..22LR version. You see, I've owned THAT little NAA for 25 years, just wanna see what the little cap and ball version is like, and without getting political, I might have to fall back on it someday for deep concealment, if ya know what I mean. I do have a .31 and a ROA. This would be my third percussion revolver toy.

My normal carries are a .38 snub, a 3" medium frame .357 magnum, a 9mm subcompact, a DA/SA .45ACP, and a few others. I really don't need it for carry. I have a CCW in Texas and carry every day. Heck, if I don't like it, I can always sell it. I can ship without FFLs involved. I really don't anticipate selling it, though.

As for cleaning, it's stainless and I have a dish washer. That's how I did my stainless ROA before it got ripped off. My current ROA is carbon steel.

[MCgunner]

One thing I do use my .22LR NAA for, I clip it via its holster grip to the top of my T shirt when I'm wade fishing, keeps it out of the water and I'm still armed. My .38 is in the boat, or in my kayak, however I'm fishing. It's the only gun that is really able to go with me wade fishing and stay dry. It does fill a need now and then. Heck, I carry it everywhere in addition to my other carries, second or third gun. I carry and use it a LOT more than my .380. If the Companion will shoot as well as that .22LR does, I'll like it. I've taken rabbits with the .22 to 50 feet or so. That ain't shabby accuracy, but the tiny sights require good light and time for alignment. It don't point shoot for squat.

Actually, though, I just wanted to buy something and I don't NEED anything cartridge, about got all that covered and I always wanted to play with one of these NAAs.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

A well loaded .31 is a lot stronger than a well loaded North American Arms .22 Mini Mag Revolver.... Yes, I also bought a couple of extra cylinders and 3 extra sets of nipples and another cylinder pin, 2 main springs and this that and the other for my NAA's..I'vd never used any of them. I bought the Mini Mags as a last ditch survival weapon. If I'm backed up in a corner I know it will kill a man (or woman) dead with no problem at all. (I'm pretty well retired now, but there have been times when I was backed into corners).. If I'm lost and stranded in some rough country somewhere I know it will feed me and even start a fire if need be. It's not a gun (at least for me) one carries with the intention of shooting it a lot and on a regular basis. It take's a little while to pull the pin, remove the cylinder, reload, replace the cylinder, lock the pin back into place, etc...It's I guess what I just called it. It's an emergency survival weapon like the Leatherman Super Tool and perhaps the ASEK you have tucked away that you hope you never need but is there if everything go's to s*** and it's Katy bar the door. Root hog or die. I guess they're fun to shoot and mess around with if that's what someone want's to do. Shooting it is damn sure cheap no question....

[MCgunner]

Well, made a deal with matthew.g.george and will be sending out a money order Monday or Tuesday. I get paid Tuesday, that's a good thing. :D Will report when I have time and the road to the range dries up a tad. Heck, I might just put the shooting stuff I need in a back pack, strap the tripod for my chronograph to the rack, and ride the dirt bike out there. Won't have anyone out there bothering me that doesn't have a 4x4. :D

[MCgunner]

Dang, I greatly over-estimated the volume of 1 grain of bullseye. My smallest lee scoop holds 2.4 or something like that. I went out back and fired a round of .22 CB short, cut THAT down about by 1/3rd with a dremel tool, and it's 1.0 grain. Superglue doesn't appear to stick to brass, either. :rolleyes: I wanted to make a handle for the scoop. Guess not, just use needle nose to scoop with.

[batjka]

Just get a piece of wire and wrap it around the casing to make a handle. That should be easy enough.

Gentleman of Charcoal,

Do you limit yourself to C&B pistols for a reason? I live in NYC, so carrying any pistol is pretty much out of question, but if you live in a free or a semi-free state you can actually get a permit and buy a cartridge firearm. Not to knock a C&B gun, they are as deadly as they were 150 yrs ago. Just wonder about your reasons.

What is the weight of the conicals for a .31? I think energy wise the NAA loaded with Bullseye and .31 loaded with 777 should be close.

[MCgunner]

I went and weighted one, 60 grains. It's very pointy, I supposed for penetration. I bought the mold, all brass, off Dixie Gun Works. I believe it's a replica of an original. It casts a ball and a conical.

Yeah, I was out running some numbers. Now, I know that .31 puts up around 60-70 ft lbs. My .22LR NAA only puts up 35-40 ft lbs (40 grain bullet at around 700 fps). I'm thinkin' I can top that and maybe get close to the .31. I only need 900+ fps to do it with a 30 grain pill. We'll see. But, really, I ain't so much worried about energy as I am penetration. The .22LR NAA is pathetic on penetration. It will burrow into a 1x4 and you can see the butt of the bullet in the hole. That's about it. Of course, a chunk if pine is denser than flesh, just sayin'. I mean, a good .38 will splinter the same board. Unfair comparison, I guess, but I'm just hoping for better penetration than with the .22 if I'm to actually have a USE for this thing. :D It will be fun to play with and experiment with in any case.

Yeah, I will try some safety wire for the scoop. Should work. :D

[batjka]

Man, you just trying to make me buy the .31, aren't you? If I get one, would you sell me some conicals? How big is that gun, anyway? What's better, a Colt or a Remington? I see one in my future...

[EmGeeGeorge]

I've been shooting the bullets that came with it(30 gr conicals?) and some buckshot (#4 I believe)... the bullets seem slightly more accurate... the buckshot went thru and thru on an plastic orange juice bottle at 4 or 5 yds... been using ffff and tried some 777 too.... i shot a phone book at about 5 feet and it went in(bullet) about 1/2 to 3/4 inch with 777. the buckshot penetrated a little better.

[BHP FAN]

I did an informal 2x4'' penetration test, all Cabela's .22 conical,and using triple Seven vs 3F Goex [I don't have any 4f] I got nearly twice the penetration at 210 yards,the 3f bullets base was visible about a quarter inch below the board's surface,while I had to dig the Triple Seven bullet out with my pocket knife.

[MCgunner]

777 sounds like da stuff, alright. :D


Man, you just trying to make me buy the .31, aren't you? If I get one, would you sell me some conicals? How big is that gun, anyway? What's better, a Colt or a Remington? I see one in my future...

Mine's a Remington brass frame. About 15 years ago, Cabelas had it on sale, 65 bucks. Everything has gone up since then. If you get one, probably better to get a steel frame, but I couldn't resist the sale and, I mean, a .31 ain't gonna wear out a brass frame like a .44 will in a colt clone. The Remington or Colt is up to your tastes. I just went for the sale. :D

Just PM me about the bullets. I could get some to you, will have to cast 'em. Only have a few left. My gun shot WAY high when I got it. It had a bead front sight. I pulled that out and fitted a piece of brazing rod and trimmed it to adjust for elevation. It's a little much for a pocket gun, but it shoots to POA now. It ain't real accurate, but it ain't bad. At 50 feet I can hit a paper plate every shot, good as it need be, I reckon, for it's mission in life. It ain't a "kit gun" for chasing rabbits, though.

The loading lever is pretty flimsy. I'm wondering if the loading tool for the NAA might work with it. I'm going to see when it gets here. Gotta be really careful with the load lever on the gun. It's kinda cool, though, and if I had to use it for self defense, I know I can hit with it. It's got a 4" barrel and points really well, too. If I thought I needed to carry it, i'd probably just pull the front sight out so it wouldn't snag on stuff. Some of the .31s have a thumbnail front sight which would be better. I could probably figure something out, though, for a snagless sight if I had to. One thing I can say, it's very well timed, very tight, well constructed little gun. Amazing considering the price.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Batjka. No, there is no restrictions on the state and certainly not on me. I have used and owned many modern cased firearms in my life. I spent a lot of time in the Marines and much of that time in situations you don't even want to know about. I'm not in the Marines any more. Neither do I do Black Ops for the Federal Government anymore. I have no need to hose lead and neither do I feel the need to carry a firearm capable of hosing lead. Besides, a Black Powder firearm shooting round ball is a lot more accurate than modern cased. (relatively little drop and no walk). Oh, after you zero in and get the sights set one can hit with a modern cased with not much of a problem. I could tell you a lot about that but I don't really feel like getting off into it...I have permission to carry. Stay's in my wallet all the time. Uncle Sam like's for me to keep it with me.... I enjoy building my own 'round' as it were.... Wyoming dosen't pay much attention to people carrying firearms. Just don't wear it in public while going into stores, restuarants and what not while inside city limits unless it's nessacary or you forgot to take it off and leave it in the vehicle, and don't carry it concealed unless you have permission to do so and can produce said permission in the rare event it should be requested. Hell, there's 2 loaded guns out there in my pickup truck right now and in plain view. They stay there and it's not anybody's damn business and we don't care about that stuff anyway unless it's some damned idiot going crazy and trying to murder a bunch of people and if that happens then someone will just reach into their own pickup truck and put a screeching halt to that crazy sonofa*****.... I don't really shoot Black Powder. I use Triple Seven 3fff. I have alway's had good luck with it. I just get a good feeling hunting and messing around with Black Powder firearms. (the ones I finally decided on. I don't care anything about the rest of them. I'vd got what I want). A certain sense of history probably figure's into the equation a little also I guess despite the fact that I love my modern inline .45's. My Black Powder firearms are absolutely dependable and I take extreme exception to your question as to why I 'limit' myself by using Black Powder firearms. I don't feel limited at all....PS..I know you meant no harm with your question..PS AGAIN. All I shoot is swaged round lead balls except for my .45 inlines and the .22 Mini Mags--- '47=.457--'58=.451--'49=.323--Cattleman's Carbine=.451....

[MCgunner]

The only limit to black powder is reload speed. And, heck, you can carry spare cylinders if you're all THAT worried about it as with Pale Rider. :D The main reason NOT to carry BP for me is I don't live in the country where I can shoot them empty and reload with regularity. Also, there's far better choices in powerful modern handguns that hide better. Texas has no open carry. I do think I'd like to add a 5" Remington or maybe a short barreled Navy to my little BP collection eventually. There's a 5" remmy on sale at Cabelas right now that's tempting. This would give me something big that's more compact than my ROA and more powerful than my .31. But, it's not a real rush since I carry a .357 magnum and a .38 and plan to keep on keepin' on. I do have autos, but I sorta like my revolvers. And, firepower isn't an issue in self defense, as GOC points out. I just LIKE and always have, .38 and .357 revolvers.

I have the money at the moment for one gun. I've got all the cartridge guns I want and need for the moment. I thought it over, don't really need or want a shotgun. I'm a big time bird hunter, mostly waterfowl, both geese and ducks, and a dove hunter. I have two preferred shotguns for dove, one I can use that I've sort of retired. I have my favorite Mossberg pump for ducks with the Winchester 1400 (dove gun) capable. Then, I bought a 10 gauge H&R two years ago for geese and LOVE that thing. Talk about reach out there and knock 'em down! I've had to re-adjust my range limit thinkin' with that gun over 3" BB steel. I'm shooting 3.5" T shot out of it, friggin' cannon.

I absolutely don't need another big game/deer hog rifle. I don't have a lease anymore and my hunting is restricted to my place and stand. I can't see more'n 150 yards. Heck, most times I hunt with my contender pistol to put some challenge into it and am getting into bows again.

I really don't need another carry pistol and don't have any other handgun wants. BUT, I had thought about getting a micro .380 like the Ruger LCP. My buddy brought his new LCP down and I compared my old Grendel P12 to it and by danged the Grendel is the same size! It's a few ounces heavier and 1" wide vs about 0.8 for the LCP, but it has a double stack 11 round magazine, so the width is pretty worth it IMHO. That took the sting out of wanting an LCP, though.

So, then I got to thinkin' about what I'd want in BP since my BP collection consists of 3 guns. I coulda ordered the Remmy Cabelas has on sale, but I have, over the years, thought a lot about playing with a NAA mini Companion and that I might be able to get more out of it than my .22 and it might actually become a carry option. If I can do that, get it as accurate and more powerful (aka significantly better penetration) than my .22 NAA, I will buy a couple of spare cylinders for it. I'd thought of getting a .22 mag mini master, but the things have 4" barrels on 'em. They'd still fold up pocket size I reckon, but I've been unable to find one locally. I may still get one someday since it seems I'm building a small NAA collection now. :D But, a shorter barrel fits the carry thing better. The .22 mag, though, really needs 4" of barrel to be much better than a .22LR for defense. All it offers in the short barrels is a little over 100 fps more and a LOT more muzzle blast. Thing is, if I can get that Companion to perform on par with the short barrel mag, it'll be short and handy and more fun to shoot and play with and cheaper to feed and, well, it'll just be neat. :D I won't carry it daily as a back up as I do with my .22, requires unloading and reloading regularly. But, if I get into a situation where even my .380 is too much to conceal, rarely happens, but does, the little Companion could be an answer. If it don't work out, hell, it'll still be fun to play with and I'll likely keep it for that, anyway.

Anyway, all that was my thinkin' on the subject, twisted as you might think it. :D Funny, with cartridge guns I tend to try to justify a purchase. I like Browning pumps, BPS, and thought about saving up for a 10 gauge BPS, but money is a little tight and, well, I don't NEED it. It would displace other shotguns for waterfowling that I like. With black powder guns, though, I need no other justification to own them, really, other than pure fun. That's what BP is all about for me. So, i really can't go wrong getting a little NAA companion to play with way I see it. It may turn out not to be such a practical tool in the end, but still, it'll be fun.

That NAA mini master might offer better accuracy through being a lot easier to shoot. I may get one one of these days. I do have a little stainless Rossi 511 that's a tack driver, squirrel hunting accurate, that I carry when I'm fishing sometimes. The mini master would have to offer a lot to displace that gun as a kit gun. That gun has a 4" barrel and is J frame size, rides IWB very nice.

So, well, I'm happy with my decision. It's been two years since I bought anything new to play with and, hell, I have the urge for something new, don't really care about need. :D

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I read somewhere that back during Texas's 'wild and wooly' days that although practically everyone walked around armed, one could not actually buy and own a revolver of any type. It had to be leased. It was never really your own and while they would lease one to anybody that walked in the door, it was still a lease and not a clear sale. I don't remember reading about when that law was enacted or when it was changed....

[MCgunner]

Wow, wasn't during MY lifetime. Never heard that tale, either, so I don't think it was in my grandpa's lifetime and he was born in 1899. Now, up until 1996, one could not legally carry and even having one in the car in easy reach was dicey. There was a "traveling" clause for defense, but no one had ever been found to be traveling in Harris County, I'm told. I carried, as did an estimated 1/4 the population of Texas, anyway. I had a tiny little POS .25 that actually functioned pretty well. It saved my bacon from a mugger once who was only armed with a knife. Just had to pull it and rack the slide to convince him to run. It was cheap and I figured it I had to chunk it in the bay, so be it. I also occasionally rode my motorcycle with a .44 caliber Navy replica in the saddlebags. Couldn't conceal it on my person, but it was comforting to know it was there if I could get to it. I really didn't wanna have to chunk my Ruger Security Six at the time. :D

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Had a Ruger Security Six back in the days. Grip was too small and finally gave it to my sister-in-law for home defense....

[batjka]

Gentleman of the Charcoal,

I certainly did not mean any disrespect when I questioned you about your choice of a carry weapon. On the contrary, I find it extremely fascinating that you employ your BP pistols in this manner. You obviously are familiar with firearms and shooting and the fact that someone like yourself carries a BP pistol for SD reassures me in the value of these weapons.

As far as the .31 goes, a conical should give you more weight thus more energy and penetration.

So how does a 60 gr bullet at 700 fps compare to, say, ballistics of a revolver chambered in .32 Long?

Figures I had from someone that chronographed .22 LR Companion loaded with Bullseye was 30 gr slug at 800 fps. Pretty respactable. Super Companion with Bullseye or 777 should be able to reach 900 fps.

The issue with shooting Bullseye in Super Companion is that the cylinder pin flexes and bends under recoil and binds the cylinder. This doesn't happen in .22 Mag revolvers, but a Super Companion cylinder is slightly longer than a cartridge version to prevent cylinder compatability.

[BHP FAN]

I'd stick with the Triple Seven. That stuff is plenty BARKY! and definatly get the ''magnum''. not only does it allow you to get a decent charge in the cylinder,it puts the side blast [it's a revolver] away from your trigger finger's knuckle. Shooting my little .22 lr for 15 rounds was painfull,so I swapped it off to someone with smaller hands.

[batjka]

Can you please post a picture of the Companion next to .31 and the j-frame for size comparisson?

[MCgunner]

If no one else does, and I remember (probably won't be here for a couple of weeks) I will. I have Taurus 85 which is J frame size, close enough for size comparos.


So how does a 60 gr bullet at 700 fps compare to, say, ballistics of a revolver chambered in .32 Long?

So close the target isn't going to know the difference. The .32 long can shoot a little heavier bullet, but a 2" gun is right there with the .31 ballistically. Ain't exactly a .38 +P, but I wouldn't wanna be on the receiving end of it.

800 fps ain't bad! My little .22LR with it's preferred 38 grain Federals is around 700 IIRC.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Batjka..Hey man, no offense taken. I know you were only asking. I don't shoot much anymore anyway. Maybe a bit of hunting here and there but nothing to write home about. Have a good day Batjka....

[batjka]

Allright, we're all on the same page.

I checked out a steel-framed .31 Remington on Cabela's website. The reviews are mixed to say the least. People say that the loading ram doesn't extend into the chambers as it is larger in diameter. One guy said that the gun loaded with .312 ball and 15 gr of 777 "barely" penetrated a 2x4 at point blank range. Now, not all 2x4s are created equal, but will it have enough penetration?

The Box O' Truth had a penetration test performed using .44 cal black powder guns:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu66.htm

I wonder how .44 revolvers, the .36 revolvers and the .31 revolvers, as well as the Companion perform given the same criteria. Any volunteers to check it out?

[MCgunner]

Yeah, they're really pretty wimpy, but I kinda think that's the purpose of those pointy 60 grain conicals, penetration. I'll try to get a pic of one up here, maybe put a .38 SWC or something next to it for comparison. I haven't shot wood with it, should do that. I'm going to pick me up some 777 soon, have never tried that in the .31, either.

I don't know about the rams in THEIR .31s, but mine fits in the cylinders. It's an ASM produced gun which is an Italian manufacturer. My gripe with the load lever is it seems pretty fragile, could be stronger.

[sundance44s]

When it comes to carry pieces ...different strokes for different folks .
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zfk5mb.jpg

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Batjka..Buy yourself a Uberta 1849 Colt Pocket .31 with the 4 inch barrel. Also buy yourself a Baby Flask, 1 pound of Triple Seven 3fff, 2 or 3 packs of .323 swaged round lead balls, and a couple of tins (or the 1000 count) of Remington #10 percussion caps. Load, carry, and shoot with confidence..I'm through with the subject....

[batjka]

Any updates?

[MCgunner]

It just got here today. Thank you Mr. George, pleasure doin' business with ya! We have some bad weather comin' and I have to work tomorrow anyway, so the range trip will be up coming. Friggin' road to the range is all mudded up, might have to take the dirt bike down there, pack the chronograph in a back pack or something. Whatever it takes. :D

I haven't forgotten about a comparison shot with the .31 and a snubby .38, but haven't gotten to it, yet.

http://i46.tinypic.com/jpy5xu.jpg

[MCgunner]

Okay, the requested comparison pic. Top to bottom, Taurus 2" M85SSUL, CVA .31 Pocket Remington, NAA Super Companion grip open, NAA .22LR cartridge gun grip closed.

[BHP FAN]

Saweet...gotta love them ''mouse guns''!
www.mouseguns.com/

[azyogi]

For plinking fun with the companion use .22 cal airgun pellets and JUST a percusion cap, no powder I like the CCI magnum caps for this

[MCgunner]

Haven't tried that yet, but popped a cap in the house. Damn, it was kinda loud. Don't know if I could get away with shooting it in the back yard with pellets. I do have some .22 pellets I can try with it, though.

[batjka]

Now waiting for the range report... Thank you for the pics.

[EmGeeGeorge]

I have heard some float the idea of getting the chambers bored out some more to increase capacity, and then getting the nipples changed too... something about pistol small primers...

[MCgunner]

Yeah, all that's in that link I posted to that other thread. I'm not really THAT into the performance of it. I'm kinda hopin' I can get it up over 800 fps with the 30 grain pills. That'll be pretty close to .22 mag from these little guns and will definitely exceed my .22LR. That one fellow, "manyirons" who I haven't seen here in a while and works for a black powder specialist gunsmith was stating stuff like 1300 fps, but wouldn't give details. Where'd he go, anyway? They also bored the chambers deeper on ROAs and got 'em up to 500 or so ft lbs for hunters. They push over 400 anyway.

Anyway, my intent is to use percussion caps (I have a tap-o-cap for bad times when caps ain't available) and be able to make, if I'm forced to, black powder, and still be armed with SOMEthing. That's really the only "use" I have for it, but I just like BP and mainly think it'll be fun and if I can get some more juice out of it, bonus. Also, I'll be lookin' at accuracy. I notice there's no rear notch for the sight on the frame like on my .22, might be a little iffy, but the blade is wider and more visible. I'm hoping I can get to the range today (depends on the condition of the road) to do some initial play. I still haven't picked up some 777, yet. Initial shots will be for accuracy and to check POI so I don't wind up shooting my chronograph. :D

[batjka]

As far as I remember, manyirons was a bogus gunsmith that stole the customers' guns and put them up on gunbroker. Don't believe anything that he posted.

If you're planning on shooting it with 1 gr of Bullseye, it might be advisable to use filler on top of it to ensure proper ignition. I haven't done it myself, but it seems logical to keep the powder against the back of the chamber. I have read that people were getting hang fires or partial ignition in Super Companions loaded with 1 gr of Bullseye because the powder was not against the ignition source.

I accept no responsibility for this statement, just a thought that came to me.

What powder are you going to be using? Pyrodex P?

Please keep us updated, this is a fascinating subject and while there were many discussions hard data is difficult to come across.

[BHP FAN]

You really have to try Triple Seven in the Companion.I'm a true believer in REAL powder [2f Goex is my ''go to'' powder for everything from my .45-70 to my .58 under-hammer] but in the little pistol,it really shines.When I read that it was 10% to 15% hotter,I thought it just a marketing ploy...but it's true!

[MCgunner]

Well, it shot bullseye the best, a little over 800 fps with 1 grain. Shot my .22 NAA with federal lightening just to compare and it shot the same, little over 800. So, with bullseye, it's basically equal to the .22 It also shot some pyrodex, whadda joke! around 500 fps. So, bullseye it is until I get my hands on some 777. I'm in a holding pattern until then.

The good news is it's pretty accurate. The bad news is I had to hold the front blade to the bottom and sight there, and about 4" right to hit bull, but groups were about 4" off hand at 15 feet. I guess if the bad guy got it and I put enough distance on him, he'd be shooting at my feet thinkin' he was on. ROFL. But, with the proper funky sight picture, it seems to work about as well as my LR version.

So, we'll see what the 777 does when I get some. That's probably better than shooting B'eye, though in no way do I think I'm over-pressuring the gun with it. Wasn't real impressive, about like shooting the .22 and the chrony verified this. But, it's neat as heck and I'll have fun with it. I need to figure something on the sights, though. For now, I'll just hold over with some Kentucky windage.

As far as I remember, manyirons was a bogus gunsmith that stole the customers' guns and put them up on gunbroker. Don't believe anything that he posted.

NO SCREAMIN'? I never heard that! Cripes, I was considering sending my ROA for that bore job, but never did! DAMN! If that's true, I hope he's resting in a 4x8 cell somewhere. IIRC, he was supposed to be in Ohio somewhere. Probably bogus, too, though he'd have to give a shipping address. I'd been tempted to hunt him down all the way up there if he'd have Ped me off, enough.

[MCgunner]

Oh, yeah, I was going to try the buckshot. I had forgotten to buy some Crisco, so I was using bore butter I had in my BP range box. It seemed to work with the 30 grain conicals, but seeped by the round ball and contaminated things. SO, I loaded one round and got 750 fps out of 1 grain B'eye, slower than I was getting with the 30 grain conicals. No doubt, the pressure was lower with the lighter projectile, but then, that's a pretty poor sample size. I didn't wanna load more'n one without greasing the tops, though.

[batjka]

Thanks for posting this, very interesting!

What do you think about upping the Bullseye load a bit? Say, 1.4 gr?

I thought you were getting 700 fps out of the .22, so over 800 should be a bit better.

Please keep us posted on any further experiments.

[batjka]

Can you do some milk jug penetration test, like the box o' thruth does? I am curious as to that as well as the penetration of the .31 Remington.
Thank you in advance.

[MCgunner]

I'll save some jugs, good idea. I'll need to save up some jugs first, though, might take a couple of weeks. Might get some from my daughter to help out, though..

Yeah, I just got some old .22 cases and cut them for 1.3, 1.7, and 2.0 grains and will use the chrony to document. I'm shooting for the near 1150 (or something like that) that NAA gets for their 30 grain CCI Maxi Mag +V results as an indicator that I'm hot enough. :D I'll stop when I start approaching that. I thought about this some, myself, and the 1.0 is REALLY mild. The cylinder is beefy and I'm not even hurting the caps. Those caps disintegrate in my ROA. :D I'll get back with ya, going to the range again while there's good light. It's just 3 miles from the house, not a big trip. When I get my jugs saved up, I'll try the .31 with pyrodex and 60 grain conical and the NAA on 'em with whatever load I come up with.

[MCgunner]

I thought you were getting 700 fps out of the .22, so over 800 should be a bit better.

Yeah, I was, but I'm not sure what ammo I was using when I did that. The shots I fired today were with Federal Lighting. Reason I shot that is the gun is very picky about what it likes. This stuff shoots to POA and is quite accurate. Now I know it's got a little more zap to it, too. Still, it's no .357. :D

[MCgunner]

Okay, I ran down and fired the 1.3 grains, showed high 800 fps. 1.7 grains shows 950 fps. THEN, WOAH, 2.0 grains is pushing over 1100 fps. I get 1114 average. That's about 50 fps, IIRC, shy of NAA's testing of the same gun in .22 mag shooting the 30 grain CCI +V. The pressure appears to be on a steep curve up, so that looks like THE limit of where I'm going with the thing. It still didn't recoil, but the noise and muzzle flash was pretty impressive. Accuracy got a little better or I got a little better, about 3" at 15 feet off hand. Caps STILL are in one piece and lookin' pretty good after firing. I was using CCI.

If I carry the gun, I reckon this will be my carry. I'll probably just load 1 grain B'eye and shoot 4 buck for practice. I STILL want some 777, though. I'll get some soon, but I have to drive 30 miles to get it. I may wind up practicing with 777 if it can get up close to B'eye. Besides, I'd like to try in in the .31 and the ROA, too. :D

[BHP FAN]

40 gr of 3 f Triple Seven going off is impressive.

[robhof]

BHP, you can say that again, I ran 40gr loads of 3f 777 through my ROA with round balls and felt like I was shooting my son's Blackhawk with 300gr cast bullets and Ruger only loads. I tried 777 in my NAA mag Companion and it was a totally different gun than with 4f Goex, much more power, felt like a real gun.

[BHP FAN]

Exactly!I loaded up some 40gr. cartridge loads to shoot in my 7 1/2'' Italian Colt.I thought I might've somehow slipped in a .44 mag round when I touched that off! I'm going to shoot the rest of those in my lever gun...

[sundance44s]

BHP FAN ....I did the same thing with my 40 gr 45`s ....I marked the box rifle only after only 5 shots from my Italian Peace maker ,.

[MCgunner]

If I do that, I reckon my Blackhawk could handle it. :D I bet the stuff'll wake up that ROA, though. :D It shoots 900 and something with Pyrodex and a 220 grain conical. Be fun to see what 777 does.

[MCgunner]

A little extra info on super companion ballistics. I was lookin' back in my notes and the 1100 and change I got with that 30 grain pill, while it equals the velocity NAA shows (or nearly so) for the .22 mag CCi 30 grain +V, I got about the same out of my 4" Rossi kit gun shooting the 32 grain CCI Stinger. That's a 4" barrel. So, anyway, while it's good, it's still no .44. :D It only equals a .22 out of a 4" barrel. Still basically a head shot gun. The penetration SHOULD be improved over the .22LR NAA, though.

[batjka]

What you say is true. However, you're getting pretty good velocities out of a tiny C&B pocket gun. And the govt doesn't have to know about it. I did some calculations and energy from Super Companion should be on par with energy out of the .31 Remmi. Now awaiting penetration tests...

[MCgunner]

And the govt doesn't have to know about it.

Yeah, that's one of the cool things about BP stuff. :D

As to energy, you could think about this, too. A .32 ACP pushes 120 ft lbs or so. The .22 Companion is around 90. Either would suffer from a hollow point IMHO, kill penetration. However, the .32, as does the .31, carries twice the projectile weight which helps penetration via more momentum.

Yeah, the penetration tests will be interesting.

[BHP FAN]

When my brother and I shoot pellet rifles in my back yard, mine is a .22, and his is a .177, both Chinese SKS type trainers. His .177 consistantly out penetrates my .22.You may be surprised. Less surface mass can mean better penetration.

[MCgunner]

True enough. I was checking out Brass Fetcher, a gelatin testing site, and they had a .22 mag 30 grain +V fired from a 2" gun, a Taurus. It got 1300 fps, a bit of expansion, and penetrated 10". I'm not real sure how that relates to 1114 fps, but being a round nose and with no expansion, that should help penetration.

[RyanM]

I used to have one of those. (I'm back, oh no!)

I never got around to buying a pound of Bullseye, but I did try it with Power Pistol, and #11 Remington caps just wouldn't set it off. Ended up using a tiny, something like .1 gr scoop I made, to "prime" each chamber with BP, then top it off with PP, then seat the bullet. No idea what velocity, but there was no recoil and it wasn't very loud.

I did try the caps and airgun pellets thing, but I could never get it to work. Incredibly loud compared to small pistol primers in a modern gun, and the pellets would never make it all the way out of the barrel.

And you missed the mess with Manyirons and whatshisname? You must have been on hiatus then, because it was huge. I was this close to sending my Companion in for that small primer job, too! Last I saw, someone spotted the shyster at a soup kitchen, so he may have gotten his due, but they still can't seem to keep him in jail.

Anyway, one thing to check, pressurewise, is how tough it is to unscrew the nipples (shouldn't be getting a lot of fouling with smokeless), and if the threads start to look funny at all, after a bunch of shots. That would probably be the first area to go. Still, I've heard of several people using the Magnum Companions with a full scoop of Bullseye with no problems (except barrel leading, and the incredible flash and report).

[MCgunner]

And you missed the mess with Manyirons and whatshisname? You must have been on hiatus then, because it was huge. I was this close to sending my Companion in for that small primer job, too! Last I saw, someone spotted the shyster at a soup kitchen, so he may have gotten his due, but they still can't seem to keep him in jail.

Dayum, I guess I just wasn't paying attention to the BP forum at that time. I get into ruts talkin' shotguns, hunting, this or that and ignore other forums. I hope the SOB rots. That's just plain not right. I'm DANGED glad I didn't get all hot to send in my ROA. I was going to do it because it shoots high and is adjusted to the bottom of the rear sight's travel. But, I have my sight picture for it. It needs a slightly taller front sight, though. Guess I won't be trustin' somebody off the net for such things. :rolleyes:

Ah, I'm getting good velocity with 2 grains B'Eye over 1100 fps. I'll keep an eye on the threads, though. I made the scoops out of cut down .22 hulls with wire for handles. Its sorta a pain to use, but it works. Just kinda tiny. :D Went to town with the wife today to eat at a good restaurant between here and there and stopped and bought a pound of 777. So, my next range trip will be with the .31, perhaps the ROA, and the super companion for some chronographing. I'm going to try that stuff in my Hawken, too. They list velocities/charge weights on the bottle and claim about 1000 fps for the ROA. That really isn't spectacular. I can get that with round ball and pyrodex. But, I needed another lb of Pyrodex P anyway and the stuff has gotten up to 22 bucks. The 777 as long as I can remember has been in the 25 dollar range, paid 28 for it today. So, the price difference has closed. No reason not to buy it now for only a few bucks more if it's better like everyone says.

[MCgunner]

Oh, BTW, I've been carrying the thing as a back up today. I am going to fire it tomorrow, or when ever I get to the range this week and put it back up. Just had a hankerin'. It was backin' up my .45ACP, so I wasn't lightly armed or anything.

[BHP FAN]

it is...didja get the 3f or the 2f?The first time I bought it,I did't realize it came in different grain size like real powder until I got it home.

[MCgunner]

I got 3F, was a little taken aback by the velocities they were quoting in rifles. I guess the stuff is safe in rifles. I might back off the charge from my normal 90 grains, though, if I try it in the Hawken. I bought it for the revolvers, though, and specifically hope it juices up the little .31 a few FPS. The thing is in the 700 fps range with pyrodex and the 60 grainers. I'm noping I can get it in the 800s, anyway. Don't wanna push it TOO hard, owing to the brass frame, but it's only a .31 after all, has the Remington top strap for strength, and I think it can take it. I may back off the charge for shooting, but I wanna see what it's capable of with the 777.

[azyogi]

MCgunner, just wondering have you ever ran any 60gr. Aguila .22SSS over a chrony out of your NAA 22LR. I have both the 22WMR and the 22 super companion, I got to wondering what a 60gr rn at magnum speed whould do [in ft/lbs] if one could push one that fast from a NAA, Companion or WMR? The .22SSS looks like an extra long bullet on a 22 short case, to give it the overall length of a .22lr. If you could load that 60gr. bullet on a long rifle case it would still fit in the conversion cylinder that came with my NAA .22WMR. [[60gr @ 1000fps =131ft/lbs, and @ 1100fps 161ft/lbs [IIRC]] To fit that long of a bullet in a companion cylinder you'd have to back bore it some but that'd just help with the 2gr load of bsey. Or am I just whistlin dixie here?

[MCgunner]

MCgunner, just wondering have you ever ran any 60gr. Aguila .22SSS over a chrony out of your NAA 22LR. I have both the 22WMR and the 22 super companion, I got to wondering what a 60gr rn at magnum speed whould do [in ft/lbs] if one could push one that fast from a NAA, Companion or WMR?

Just looking at the NAA site, 40 grain stuff they list is under 1000 fps in .22 mag 1 5/8" guns. It seems to take a mini master to wake the things up. The CCI +V 30 grain stuff is more comparable to the 30 grain conicals in the super companion with the 2 grain B'eye load.

I've never fired an Aguila round. I settled on the federal for its accuracy and point of impact in my gun. I have gotten in the mid 700s with remington thunderbolt IIRC, but the federal lightening is a little faster and carries a 38 grain hp bullet vs the thunderbolt's lead 40 grain. I'd expect a 60 grain pill from the LR to be pretty pathetic. Might be able to see the bullet in flight if it was a little bigger. :D But, no, I haven't fired such a round.

Might could shoot that 60 grain pill, but you'd have to get it out of the case somehow without boogering it up. My inertial bullet puller doesn't go that small. I haven't fully explored the possibilities in casting .22 bullets. I don't know if one could cast those 30 grainers NAA sells. I'm guessing they're swaged. I don't have bullet swaging equipment, but might be an answer. Lot of money to spend on a friggin' super companion, though. :D

[MCgunner]

Oh, the 777 thread is going, but 777 turned out to be a big flop in the gun. It barks loud, but it produces pathetic numbers. The report from the stuff is deceiving, all bark and no bite. Seems to be burning most of the charge outside the gun. Same phenomenon I find when shooting 125 grain .357 out of 2" barrels.

[batjka]

I'm very surprised to hear that 777 performed worse than Pyrodex P. It souns like compressing the load brings up the pressure and the velocity. Maybe 777 should be compressed in the Companion to get better results. It shouldn't be dangerous as it obviously is capable of handling smokeless pressures.
Please keep us posted. I hope to see some penetration test soon as well.
Thank you for this topic.

[MCgunner]

I'm very surprised to hear that 777 performed worse than Pyrodex P. It souns like compressing the load brings up the pressure and the velocity.

From my results and the discussions on this board, I've about decided that's the case, myself. The .31 sorta proved that, too, when a lightly compressed load goes 700 fps and a heavily compressed one goes 900 fps.