[Mark Tyson]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/15/1068674432934.html

Thousands of pistols seized in raids

By Alex Mitchell, Amy Lawson and Jim O'Rourke

November 16, 2003

The Sun-Herald

Killer punch ... The haul of key-ring-sized pistols yesterday indicated there had been a 'frightening development' in Sydney's gun culture.Photo: Tamara Dean

It's as small as a cigarette lighter. But it packs a killer punch.

Police yesterday revealed they had discovered a frightening haul of key-ring-sized pistols after a series of raids across Sydney.

They also announced they had found a huge number of gun parts - indicating that a crime syndicate was manufacturing and about to distribute up to 2500 of the mini-guns.

A worrying 813 ready-made weapons, each worth $1500 on the black market, were seized.

The key-ring guns can be used at short range and usually are discarded after one firing. They can be loaded with two .32 calibre bullets and are fired by pressing a button.

Australian Crime Commission Detective Superintendent Mark Jenkins said inquiries were continuing to determine whether the guns and the parts had been imported.

NSW Premier Bob Carr yesterday warned of a "frightening development" in Sydney's gun culture.

The raids, which included searches at homes on the South Coast, netted 753 illegal firearms and spare parts.

Mr Carr praised police for the haul, which has a street value of $4.6 million and is believed to be the single largest seizure of illegal firearms in Australia.

The haul from eight locations included two handguns, a machine-gun, and a number of stun guns.

Jubilant police said they had "smashed" a large illegal firearms syndicate that was about to sell these weapons to criminals.

Despite his triumphant mood, the Premier conceded he was disturbed by the discovery of weapons parts.

"This is a frightening new development because all the guns up until now have been 100 per cent imported," he said.

He said the successful raids proved NSW police had the resources, powers and numbers to fight the criminal syndicates believed responsible for the escalating gun violence and revenge killings which have haunted his Government.

"It vindicates my faith in the capacity of police to bear down on the crime that we've seen in Sydney's south-west," Mr Carr said.

Police made a series of raids across Sydney on Friday after an intensive four-month investigation by the NSW Police Firearms and Regulated Industries Crime Squad, the Australian Crime Commission and the NSW Crime Commission.

Seven people were arrested during the simultaneous raids, and six people came before a court yesterday.

Six houses, a rural property and commercial premises were raided at Kareela, Kingsgrove, Brighton, Merrylands, Campsie, Bexley North, The Oaks and Thirroul.

Mr Carr applauded the raids saying: "This is a terrific breakthrough.

"Make no mistake about it, this is a major victory in the fight against illegal firearms and the criminals who traffic in them," he said.

Five men and one woman appeared in Parramatta Bail Court yesterday charged with firearms offences following the police raids.

Police prosecutor Sergeant Brendan Searson said the key-ring pistols located in the raids could be for use in an "assassination attempt" or "any offence where concealment would be needed".

Police allegedly found 220 guns as well as ammunition in the garage of one couple's home.

Mike Tsanis, 48, and Sue Tsanis, 43, appeared in court charged with two offences in relation to the sale and possession of prohibited firearms.

Both were refused bail.

A further 18 key-ring pistols were allegedly located in the wardrobe of another home during a police search warrant conducted on Friday.

John Simos, 55, was charged with three offences in relation to the possession and unlawful sale of firearms and ammunition.

Sergeant Searson said Simos was "a main player in these series of offences", which carry a 20-year maximum term.

Simos's application for bail was denied by Registrar Brian Fenn.

Three other men - Kenneth Graham Levy, 51, Steven Geoffrey McNally, 40, and Joseph Zammit, 55 - who also came before the court charged with firearms offences in relation to the raids, did not apply for bail. They remained in custody and their hearing was adjourned to Central Local Court tomorrow.

[Leatherneck]

This is a joke, right? Please tell me it's a joke. A major bust for cheapo key ring guns? Gotta be a joke...:(

TC
TFL Survivor

[XLMiguel]

Repeat after me: They don't obey the law, that's why we call them "criminals".

[Tommy Gunn]

Notice how they use "gun culture" to describe criminals. They repeat it alot too. I see this in Australia and Britain where the anti's have complete control.

This is a form of Orwellian newspeak and their intention is to deligitimize sportsmen and gun collector's by associating them with criminals.

[carpettbaggerr]

Looks more useful for self defense to me.
A robber would have to tell someone it's a gun.
Amazing, firearms can be made from scratch and don't have to be imported.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1068674441397_2003/11/15/16pistol.jpg

[Baba Louie]

Well hush my puppies and color me all kinds of surprised... Imagine, prohibiting something and then... gasp... people begin to circumvent the law to make some money providing said prohibited item...

"gun culture"... "crime syndicate"... "black market"...

813 guns seized at $1,500 each!!! is what? $1.2 M... ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS EACH??? For a two shot throwaway zip gun?

Krikey, I'm in the wrong bloody business.

Gun parts, plans to make and distribute up to 2,500 or was it 813 or 753 or 220 or 18 or... $4,600,000 / $1500 is 3066... I'm not very good with numbers...

Anyway, it sounds like a good bust. Future criminal activity thwarted. For the Children of Tomorrow Down Under.

(Gomer Pyle voice on)"Surprise, surprise, surprise"(Gomer Pyle voice off)

Who could've seen it coming?

Adios

[Oracle]

$1500.00 for one of those things? I wonder how much you could get for a Kel-Tec P32 in that country?

[Hypnogator]

I wonder how much you could get for a Kel-Tec P32 in that country?

Prolly about 20 years! :D :D :D

[RobW]

What you are seeing is the demise of reason in both, the UK and Ausstralia, handing over their helpless sheep to the criminal butcher.

In 50 years, you will read in some history books, that there was once a powerful nation called "Great" Britain.

The subjects have still the opportunity to vote? I don't know. If they have, they don't deserve better.

[Standing Wolf]

...each worth $1500 on the black market...

Probably $2,000 by now. Do I hear $2,100? Anyone?

[Kobun]

Thats Australian $...
AUS 1500 is US$1075

Not too bad considering you can't get any other guns...
Looks like its fairly well built also.

If you make people starve, they will learn to make their own food...

"They don't obey the law, that's why we call them criminals."
"They don't obey the law, that's why we call them criminals."
"They don't obey the law, that's why we call them criminals."

I'm repeating, I'm repeating. ;)

[Nightfall]

But they made a law against this! How can criminals still do it if they made a law?! :what:

...2500 of the mini-guns.

Wow! All those miniguns! That's a damn lot of firepower! ;)

[4v50 Gary]

When I first read mini-gun, I was thinking Gatlings. Then I find out it's the BIC of the gun industry. Heck, we could do that here (but won't since we have our Glocks, Berettas, S&W, Rugers, Colts, Kimbers, Para-Ordnance, H&K, Sigs, Brownings and even Hi-Points).

[BluesBear]

Read this thread from another forum and perhaps you'll understand the mindset that is opressing our downunder brothers and sisters.

http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/003501.html

:( :mad: :fire:

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Nature always finds a way.

[Ryder]

"It vindicates my faith in the capacity of police to bear down"


It vindicates some of the Australian people to me. I've been thinking they were all completely spineless. :scrutiny:

[DontShootMe]

But hey, anyone pursuing/owning one of these is obviously a 'criminal'

these are obviously for evil purposes, how dare someone just keep one to defend their life. That's ILLEGAL!

[Moparmike]

Reads some of S&W thread...

[tinfoil hatted whacko]

Maybe once we are done fending off those hordes of blue-helmeted Brady-bunch supported UN guys, we can go liberate Austrailia from its own goobermint.

[/tinfoil hatted whacko]

That really burns me. There are a reason that post-hole diggers are available. The more I read about some of this stuff, the more I want to invest in bulk reloading supplies and tinfoil.:scrutiny: :uhoh:

Man, there just aint no way to end this post sounding sane...

[ceetee]

Photo by The Associated Press
The Bulgarian-made key-ring gun is shown in Sofia yesterday. Created to ward off attackers, the 3-inch weapon can fire two .32-caliber rounds and is cocked by pulling a ring at the rear and fired by pushing a button. It costs $20


http://www.s-t.com/daily/05-98/05-08-98/keyring.jpg

http://www.s-t.com/daily/05-98/05-08-98/zzzwnppl.htm




Police seize rare key-ring gun

By Jean Christou
A DEADLY key-ring gun, only the seventh ever to be seized in the world, was found on a man arrested by Cyprus police late on Monday, police revealed yesterday.

Officers arrested Black Sea Greek Leonidas Aidinidi, 26, at around 11pm on Monday night at the Square Pub on Eleftheria Square in Nicosia.

He was remanded for five days by the Nicosia District Court yesterday.

Police said the key-ring gun was loaded, adding it had a chamber for two 32-calibre bullets and could kill at up to 20 yards. They said the micro-weapon was around three inches long and as wide as a matchbox, claiming it could be bought for as little as $20.

Another eight bullets were found at Aidinidi's apartment in the Pallouriotissa area of the city.

The key-ring gun is the first of its kind ever seen on the island, a police bulletin said. Interpol informed the authorities in 177 countries, including Cyprus, of the gun's existence as far back as March 1998.

Police said airport security worldwide had also been warned to be vigilant because the tiny weapon -- although made of metal -- could not be spotted by metal detectors, making it ideal for terrorists and hijackers.

The first of the pistols, called "The Wasp", was seized at London's Heathrow Airport in 1998, when a passenger dropped it and fled. Since then, others have been found in Australia and Athens.

The gun, believed to originate in Bulgaria, contains a grip, firing and locking buttons, and two barrels. It is cocked by pulling the ring to which keys are attached and its firepower can be increased by using a barrel attachment.

Police in Australia discovered an instructions booklet written in Bulgarian with the weapon they discovered last year.

The booklet claimed the gun was a defensive weapon, designed to fire gas cartridges to ward off attackers, but not designed to shoot real bullets.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cmnews/1999/99-10-27.cmnews.html#04

[threeseven]

I must admit I'm quite surprised at the attitude of some of the people posting in this thread. It's really quite disappointing, to tell you the truth.

Here in Australia, if you aren't a sport target shooter, you cannot own a pistol. At all. We are expressly prohibited from using a firearm or, as a matter of fact, any kind of weapon, to defend ourselves. It's ridiculous, but that's the way it is. I just went through the arduous task of applying for a recreational hunting license, which took me about three weeks to get all the requirements and paperwork filled out, followed by a one month waiting period, a two-four week processing period followed finally by a one month waiting period for any gun I now wish to buy. The Class A & B license allows me to own airguns and bolt-action, break-action and lever action shotguns or rifles. No pump-actions, no semi-automatics and certainly no automatics, not by any stretch of the imagination. .50 calibre and above is prohibited. If you want to own any of these, you must be a farmer with an extremely specific need to own them or a LEO/soldier who probably wouldn't personally own the weapon anyway. For all intents and purposes, a C, D or R class license is almost impossible to get.

If you want to get one of these sport target shooting licenses, you must be a member of a club and partake in atleast four shooting competitions every year. Not only do you have the same waiting periods as rifle licensees, for the first six months you are not allowed to own a pistol at all. For the next six months after that, you are allowed to own a single .22 calibre pistol. After that, you may own as many as you like as long as they are under .40 calibre. The same one month waiting period applies on each weapon.

We can't just leave weapons on a table or in a rack here. Every weapon must be stored in a safe or lockable cabinet that is either in excess of 100kg or bolted to the frame of the building. The bolt/slide must be stored free of the weapon in a lockable cabinet in another part of the house.

These aren't the only factors. Weapons here are extremely expensive. A decent bolt-action rifle will go $1500-$2000, and don't even get me started on pistols. I almost forgot to mention - you can't carry a knife that has a blade longer than 3 inches, and you'd better be carrying it to open boxes.

If you're still reading this, maybe you now understand why this is a big deal. The reason a little gimmick .32 pen/lighter gun costs a grand and half is because it's simply one of very few ways to acquire a handgun illegally. Mind you, seeing as this is in Sydney, I think you'd see it used more in gang-fighting - which is fine by me.

We're neutered by our government, we aren't spineless. I sit here and calmly read complaints about having to pay exhorbitant tax on a sawn-off shotgun or assault rifle - or for that matter, a machinegun or mortar. It's all well and good for you to lean back in your chairs smoking your big cigars and wearing your cowboy hats, whooping 'yeeah boy!' and laughing at our little 'gun-busts' while figuring out how many thousands of rounds you'd like to put through your M4 today, but keep in mind a lighter-gun with two little .32 calibre bullets in it has approximately two .32 calibre bullets more than I have access to if I get mugged by someone with one.

That is why this is a big deal. I'm finished my little rant. Hopefully I haven't offended anybody and hopefully I've taught you a little something about our great brown land.

[ceetee]

threeseven:

We understand.... You're preaching to the choir here. It's precisely because we see what has happened to your freedoms, and those of our brothers all around the globe, that we cherish our so highly. In fact, that's why you hear Americans like Charleton Heston make such grand speeches ("From my cold dead hands...").

For a long while, it looked as though we were headed down that slippery slope ourselves. I have a good friend who really is a decent person, but he's one of those who say, "You already have one gun; why do you need another?"

There are to many of those still here in America, but we gun owners are gaining lost ground back. So if you read about our weekend advantures, don't get jealous. Use the stories as examples of how the anti-gun fears are groundless... how shooters are NOT time bombs, just waiting for the someone to light their fuse.

Gather examples of how guns save lives, use these examples to gather popular support, and change the laws. Gain your rights back. Throw the b@st@rds out!

[keederdag]

ThreeSeven....I Feel your pain.:uhoh:

[threeseven]

ceetee said:
We understand.... You're preaching to the choir here. It's precisely because we see what has happened to your freedoms, and those of our brothers all around the globe, that we cherish our so highly. In fact, that's why you hear Americans like Charleton Heston make such grand speeches ("From my cold dead hands...").
Oh, I understand that. But from comments in this thread, such as us not deserving better than what our government gives us because we haven't voted them out, the bust being called a joke etc, not to mention the whole 'You can use these for self-defence, it doesn't make you a criminal' standpoint which in this case is entirely inappropriate, it sometimes seems like people just don't understand what we have to deal with.

I can appreciate that this isn't everyone, but the tone of this thread irked me somewhat.

keederdag said:
ThreeSeven....I Feel your pain.
I appreciate it :(

[Delmar]

threeseven,

We're certainly NOT making fun of you. Australia is a big reminder of what can happen if we are not vigilant. I'm probably not the only person on this board who was totally surprized at the actions of your government behind the backs of the citizens.
I myself would have never guessed in a million years that Australia of all places would do this to its citizens, and it is my hope and prayer that you good people find a way to drive those politicians out of office and get back some common sense back into your government.
You, better than we, fully know just how much gun crime this terrible law and confiscation has brought to your country.

[ksnecktieman]

ok, I do not want one for 1,500$ but at 20$ I will take a dozen. Does anyone know if they are available in the states? And for how much money?

Threeseven, we are on your side, and I think that most of us hope that after we get our government back under control we can help others to regain their freedom.

[jdege]

It's called the "Iron Law of Prohibtion" - when a class of products is illegal, anyway, you might as well sell the most lethal product possible.

Bootleggers didn't smuggle beer, they smuggled whiskey.

In the US, penguns, etc., are illegal or very tightly controlled. Ditto for submachineguns.

And there's no real market for them, because the penalties are severe, and much less expensive alternatives exist.

Make ordinary handguns illegal, so manufacture, sale, and possession are subject to the same penalties as penguns and SMGs, and what will happen? The criminals will still want guns. But the criminal suppliers will discover that they can get higher prices for penguns or SMGs, and since the penalty is the same...

Anyone but a liberal would be able to predict the result.

[bukijin]

My letter to the editor of the Sydney Morning Herald in response to this article. Have my doubts that it will be published, so if I post it here at least it will be on record somewhere !

Dear SMH,
I'd like to strongly object to the sentence
"The haul of key-ring-sized pistols yesterday indicated there had been a 'frightening development' in Sydney's gun culture"
contained in your article "Thousands of pistols seized in raids" of 16/11.

The actions of criminals are not indicative of Sydney's gun-culture - which is made up of thousands of law-abiding citizens who are responsible gun owners and users. To obtain a gun license, a citizen must have no criminal record making gun owners probably the most law-abiding group in society. We lawfully undertake our hobby despite extremely rigorous government control and certainly object to being included by association with criminals.

Criminals are not a part of the 'gun culture'. However, any criminal wants a gun so that they can enforce their will on unarmed members of the law-abiding public. By definition, criminals are people who don't obey the law. It is obvious that no amount of legislation or gun control is going to stop criminal ownership of firearms - in fact it just drives a blackmarket in firearms.

The real 'frightening development' is the illogical and ill-conceived confiscation of handguns due to the Firearms Amendment (Prohibited Pistols) Act 2003. Instead of being disparaged, members of the Sydney gun culture should be given credit for the responsible and mature way in which we are giving up our cherised possessions - it's not a law that we agree with, but it's a law that we obey.

Ironically, the key-ring guns that were seized are considered more of a toy or novelty item than a serious weapon. They are not powerful, have a very short range and are inaccurate. However, they do provide a significant threat to someone who is unarmed. The answer to this kind of threat is blindingly obvious - allow law-abiding citizens to own and carry firearms for self-defense - in the same way that police officers or security guards are permitted to. After all we out-number the criminals by at least 1000 to 1.

Sincerely..etc..


Australia's situation re gun laws is obviously very different from that of the USA since we don't have any support in our own constitution. It's easy to obey a law that you agree with - you only become 'law-abiding' when you obey the laws you don't agree with also :) So I have no sympathy for these gun smugglers and their criminal customers - they are the ones I want to be able to defend myself against !

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Well done;)

[Oleg Volk]

The main sentiment towards our Australian members here is empathy! We hope that you either manage to boot the thugs running your country or get to move to America where your rights would be more respected.

[carpettbaggerr]

It's all well and good for you to lean back in your chairs smoking your big cigars and wearing your cowboy hats, whooping 'yeeah boy!' and laughing at our little 'gun-busts' while figuring out how many thousands of rounds you'd like to put through your M4 today, but keep in mind a lighter-gun with two little .32 calibre bullets in it has approximately two .32 calibre bullets more than I have access to if I get mugged by someone with one.

Why are you getting mad at us here in the States? It's your country and your government which is responsible for your plight. And we don't all wear cowboy hats here -- just the hicks in Texas. :D

[MaterDei]

G'Day all,

I don't even OWN a cowboy hat.

But I have been to Australia and I've even shot in Australia (the Steyr AUG, not my M-16). In 1997 I took part in a military training exersize called Operation Tandem Thrust (you can quit laughing now, I'm not the person who named it, OK). I earned my Aussy jump wings there with the 3 RAR.

In my 15 days spent with an Australian Brigade, I didn't hear a single complaint about your gun laws. Did all this happen post 1997?

I did, however, hear a lot of compaining about your income tax rate, 40+% if I recall, and a lot of discontent about the number of people, especially young able ones, 'on the dole'. Has this situation improved any?

Blue Skies,

MaterDei

[trooper]

In 1997 I took part in a military training exersize called Operation Tandem Thrust

I don't even wanna guess... :D :D

But seriously, Threeseven, I can relate to what you said. Over here it's almost as bad except that sports shooters and hunters have a bit more opportunities. However, virtually no CCW of any kind, and rather restrictive laws regarding storage, buy and sports disciplines ( no IDPA, no defenisve training).

I sincerely hope for the best for both of our countries but I'm not very optimistic about it. Waaaay too many whining, left-wing sheeple around...

Keep it up, introduce people to shooting and voice your opinion as often as possible.

And yes, I might emigrate to the US if I ever get the chance... ;)



Regards,

Trooper

[threeseven]

MaterDei said:
In my 15 days spent with an Australian Brigade, I didn't hear a single complaint about your gun laws. Did all this happen post 1997? I did, however, hear a lot of compaining about your income tax rate, 40+% if I recall, and a lot of discontent about the number of people, especially young able ones, 'on the dole'. Has this situation improved any?
The new Weapons Category Regulations came into effect on the 17th of November, 1997 (if I recall correctly...). A black day, indeed. The footage of all those guns being mashed on TV - the Rifle Buy-Back - it was absolutely horrible. We just had another knee-jerk 'Handgun Steal-Back' as it's come to be known. There'll be nothing left soon :(

As for income tax, well, it hasn't improved any. I'm not sure when the GST - Goods and Services Tax :rolleyes: - came into effect but we've got that now, too. Every good or service we purchase now has an additional 10% on top of it. We were told that the GST would reduce the income tax when we voted it in, but they still haven't reduced it.

These days, the dole is abused just as much as it ever was, if not more. I won't get started on the sort of people who are responsible for that, lest I get carried away with myself. Let's just say it's a bad situation.

carpettbaggerr said:
Why are you getting mad at us here in the States? It's your country and your government which is responsible for your plight. And we don't all wear cowboy hats here -- just the hicks in Texas.
I'm not really angry at anyone in particular, carpettbaggerr. Just some of the comments earlier in the thread irritated me somewhat. As far as my cowboy hat jab - I find it usuallys gets the conversation going if you stereotype and make gross generalizations about large groups of people. Hey, it's what I do :D Like I mentioned earlier, no offence intended.

[greyhound]

This forum has done a lot for my understanding of our Australian brothers. I used to think of the outback, brave pioneers and independent souls taming the wilderness. Here I read that though that may have once been true, Oz right now has one of the most urban nations anywhere, with a lot of immigration problems/policies brought on by years of guilt over excusionary practices. (kinda like our Immigration Act of 1965 was part of guilt over the civil rights movement).

If any of the above is wrong, please correct me. I truly feel sorry for fellow Anglo nations robbed of ANY form of self defense. Even in my VERY anti state I am permitted (grudgingly) to own a variety of firearms without nonsense like locking up the bolt/slide separately, etc.

As far as that lighter gun goes, it looks pretty unsafe to me. I's think twice before toting one of those around!

[greyhound]

Well, I just got back from walking the ole greyhound, and I just couldn't stop think about Australian gun laws.

If someone from there could enlighten us:

What do your leader says when asked "How are we supposed to defend ourselves?" I mean, Jeebus, y'all have crime, right? Or does no one really ask that question?

And does your government trust its citizens AT ALL? After passing that draconian series of procedures to buy a gun, they still make you lock up the parts so as to render it useless for self defense? What is the rationale here? Is the concept of defending one's self totally gone from the culture?

Please understand, I say this not as a gloater, but I am sincerely worried that we could be headed down the same road, and am just looking for some help from fellow Anglosphere folks....

[Weimadog]

Another eight bullets were found at Aidinidi's apartment in the Pallouriotissa area of the city.

Man, that is one dangerous person.

Weimadog

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Eight bullets may qualify as a dual-purpose component of a WMD:barf:

[Don Galt]

ThreeSeven--- thanks for describing the US in about 10 years.

[Weimadog]

Quote Threeseven: We're neutered by our government, we aren't spineless. I sit here and calmly read complaints about having to pay exhorbitant tax on a sawn-off shotgun or assault rifle - or for that matter, a machinegun or mortar. It's all well and good for you to lean back in your chairs smoking your big cigars and wearing your cowboy hats, whooping 'yeeah boy!' and laughing at our little 'gun-busts' while figuring out how many thousands of rounds you'd like to put through your M4 today, but keep in mind a lighter-gun with two little .32 calibre bullets in it has approximately two .32 calibre bullets more than I have access to if I get mugged by someone with one.

That is why this is a big deal. I'm finished my little rant. Hopefully I haven't offended anybody and hopefully I've taught you a little something about our great brown land.

Thanks for putting it so well.

We in the U.S. have to realize the situation you describe can happen here.

Weimadog

[jdege]

It's not that it can't happen here, but it's been happening here, and to keep it from getting worse is a constant struggle.

We usually think of European countries as being gun-rights hell-holes, but in many nations in Europe, a short-barrelled shotgun or a .60 caliber revolver is No Big Deal.