[priv8ter]

Okay. The search is now underway for a concealed carry gun for my wife. The hard part? She wants the gun to have a safety on it.

I have an SP-101, and I explained to her how most small DAO auto's are just like the revolver. They rely on a relatively stout trigger pull, and the most important safety, the one between your ears, minimize the chances of a negligent discharge.

She nodded, and smiled. :scrutiny:

She recognized the logic of what I was saying, and said she felt safe around my SP-101. But, for her, she want's a gun with an external safety(and no, a Glocks trigger doesn't count).

So, what are some options that other folks out there carry. It needs to be fairly small, because she would like to keep it on her person, instead of her handbag.

Thanks for everyone's advise.

[WhoKnowsWho]

Taurus Millenium? Too big?

PPK/S ?

Tomcat, Bobcat?

[10-Ring]

CCW w/ a safety...how about an officer's size 1911? or a HK P7M8? or a small S&W semi auto? or a one of the compact USPs? When she goes to the range, what does she prefer to shoot? Does she have any design she prefers?

[Dave Williams]

Does she plan to carry on safe?
I bet she'd change her tune after a 2 day class. Constantly decocking and upping the safety gets pretty old after awhile. Glocks and revolvers start to look pretty good.

Dave

[Blueduck]

S/W 3913, might run across one of the old colt mustang 380's as well.

[Blackhawk]

Get her a stainless PPK .380 from a gun show. Find a dirty one. You can clean it up and make a beautiful trader or seller, and probably make money on it.

It's got a safety, it's a bear to rack for the average woman, its DA trigger is about 20# and its SA trigger is about 12#. If you're not careful with your grip, the slide will do a nice job of slicing your thumb joint.

Also get some snap caps, and let her practice with it dry firing.

Then go gun shopping for a nice DAO or revolver when she says "It's beautiful, buy maybe something else would work better." :D

[honocor]

I will have to put another vote in for the P7M8. Nice, compact, and you have to be squeezing the grip to get it to fire. Only down side is the price.

[MoNsTeR]

If she can reach the trigger comfortably, CZ-75 Compact. Won't break the bank either ;)

[Deuce]

After a recent CCW course I must agree with Dave Williams.

For me it was drawing and shooting from the hip against 3 others, all with Glocks, and me with my Ultra CDP, as quickly as possible on a "Go!" signal. Consistently .5 seconds slower than everyone else. Maybe that doesn't sound like much, but doing that drill, you realize it's all the time in the world.

Best option? Change her mind.

[jar]

IMHO the best compact 9mm pistol made is the STAR UltraStar. It's small, accurate, reliable and has the external safety she wants. Best of all, you can usually find one NIB for about $200.00.

[MK11]

I prefer Sigs and revolvers for CCW but if a safety is required, I'd vote for the S&W 3913 or that new, weird-looking Beretta compact.

The Beretta 84 and 85 (or the Browning version) are great choices if she doesn't mind an oversized .380.

[Jim Watson]

priv8ter

You need to get her to a rental range or out with one of your extravangant friends with a lot of guns to actually try.

I never heard anybody but Massad Ayoob claim to actually use the slide lever on a S&W, Beretta 92, or Walther as a manual safety. At least Blackhawk is honest about your spending several hundred bucks to psych her out with an awkward gun like a PPK.

If she demonstrates she is willing to carry cocked and locked and if .380 is big enough, there is the Colt Government .380 which I prefer to the slightly smaller Mustang; or the OLD Beretta 84, 85, 86 which have true safeties. All but the big tip-up 86 discontinued, unfortunately. The "BB" guns with hooked trigger guards have levers in the same place but they are decockers. A CZ83 gets good reviews and handles like the older Berettas. Berettas and CZs are DA, too, but getting the hammer down safely for a DA start can be a good trick, except for the hinged barrel Beretta 86.

In bigger calibers, the H&K USP Compact Variant 1/2 can be used cocked and locked or mechanically decocked. But it is not really very compact, which might affect a lady. I have a Springfield Ultra Compact Lightweight 9mm which operates like a 1911 and has magageable recoil. Mine took some gunsmithing, but others report reliable out of the box operation. But it is strictly cocked and locked, no fallback in case the guys are right and your wife isn't smart enough to manage a safety.

Or, you could have the Cominolli Manual Safety installed on a Glock. A good reliable gun, she could use or ignore the safety as she chose. About $115 installed.
http://www.cominolli.com/glocksafety.htm

Deuce, what were you DOING with your safety that took half a second over the Glockers point, pull, and pray? The safety goes off while the gun is between holster and target, I have never found it to add ANY time to the draw-aim-fire stroke.

Dave, why are you decocking AND "upping the safety?" I have shot 1911 in two and three day classes and matches and never found setting the safety to get old or even come to my conscious attention. Filling single stack magazines while the others in the class banged away with their Berettas was kind of a chore, though. Speedloaders are worse, even with my old PPC tray.

[Dave Williams]

I am referring to autoloaders that have to be decocked, and then the safety has to be manually flipped up, like a Beretta, S&W, Walther, etc. I wasn't referring to a gun where the decocker is solely a decocker, not a safety, like a Sig, Beretta G, S&W 1076, etc. I wasn't referring to 1911s, which are ergonomic, and not a problem to return to safe. I should have been more specific.

Dave

[Deuce]

Jim, maybe I'm just really slow.

We were supposed to fire as soon as the gun cleared the holster and was level. When firing normally (bringing the gun up to line up the sights) there was no difference. During that time I could disengage the safety without being slower than anyone else. But, with the only movement, having cleared the holster, being raising the muzzle a couple inches, I was at least .5 seconds slower ... unless, during that drill, the other three managed to predict the "Go!" signal .5 seconds before me.

If you can beat a Glock on a fast draw shooting from the hip with a 1911 cocked-n-locked, then I'm glad you're on our side.;)

I could try practicing, but, any amount of practice, IMHO, would be better spent on a Glock (or any gun without a manual safety) as I believe I would always be faster without one.

[Jim Watson]

Deuce,

I guess I will have to try that.
By the time I got into IPSC, the "rock over the top" was considered obsolete.
These days trainers are teaching a rather high "retention position" with almost as much time and distance to knock off the safety as for an aimed shot.

Dave,

I don't have a Walther/Beretta/Smith slide lever gun to try, but there were several in the three-day class at MISS and they did not seem to be bothered with it. Of course they were Army and HAD to get used to the issue Berettas. I did campaign my CZ75 for two full years in IDPA SSP, manually easing the hammer down for each DA start. That made some SOs kind of nervous, but I never slipped in match or practice. But it was not a high volume thing, 12 - 20 starts is a Big IDPA shoot.

[Deuce]

Jim, this course was done by a cop (up for retirement in a few months). He made four points about this drill. One, a CCW confrontation at very close range (6ft or less) is very likely (compared to any other CCW confrontation). Two, at that range, you need to get a shot off VERY quickly. Three, at that range, extending your gun forward gives the BG more opportunity to knock your gun away and/or take it away (I'd doubt the likelihood of the latter). Four, at that range, you shouldn't have to worry about aiming (beyond pointing from your hip, of course).

It wasn't until during and immediately after the drill, and, particularly noticing that .5 second delay I had compared to the three Glocks shooting with me, that I could not only find NO fault in his logic, but, I believed that, for CCW, this was something worth devoting serious thought to.

Serious enough, anyway, to reconsider using my Ultra CDP for CCW and replacing it (not in my collection, just for CCW) with something which does not have a manual safety.

I'm not trying to say that the cop who did my CCW course is some sort of genius or that anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. Only that, after doing that drill, I'm a believer. And, if anyone wants a gun with a manual safety simply because they believe it will be safer to carry than, say, a Glock or a Kahr, or a revo, for that matter, then I would advise them that I believe they would be better served by a gun without a safety. For those who choose guns for CCW that do have manual safeties for various other reasons, I respect their choice and would not suggest that it's incorrect. IOW, if anyone prefers an Officer's 1911 for CCW, that's fine by me, just don't try to say that my Glock's any less safe to carry.

I didn't mean to get "preachy" here ... just tryin' to head 'em off at the pass.

One other thing. With this drill, and, specifically the use of a similar maneuver in a CCW confrontation, there is a concern with regard to holding your gun, if it's a semi-auto, where the slide will hit your body and not allow the action to cycle. In fact, this was encountered at least once by someone during this drill. IMHO, this does not make the concern any less valid. Only that one must be mindful of this and practice to avoid it. Nonetheless, the worst that could happen is you get only one shot off ... as opposed to, possibly, zero.

Take care.

[Rupestris]

Probably a bit big but have you looked at the Springfield XD yet? DAO, but has the grip safety. That might be enough to sway her.

Rupe

[txgolfer45]

Glock 26 with a Cominelli (sp) safety added on???

[Handy]

I salute your wife for going all the way to carrying a gun despite not completely trusting them. For her, DA with a safety will make the likely never-used weapon comforting, rather than a bomb in her purse.

The P7 would of course be a great choice, but pricey.

FEG makes a small DA with a safety for cheap:
http://www.cruffler.com/review-april-00.html

Even better, the RAP 9mm is nice, cheap and has an easy safety to work with:
http://www.cruffler.com/Features/DEC-01/review-December-01.html

Down side to both-all steel construction (weight). Other solutions with alloy frames in 9X18 Mak abound.

[Jim Watson]

"We were supposed to fire as soon as the gun cleared the holster and was level. When firing normally (bringing the gun up to line up the sights) there was no difference. During that time I could disengage the safety without being slower than anyone else. But, with the only movement, having cleared the holster, being raising the muzzle a couple inches, I was at least .5 seconds slower ... unless, during that drill, the other three managed to predict the "Go!" signal .5 seconds before me."

Deuce,

I ran the drill today.
An IDPA target at two yards.
Pact timer set on random delay.
Strong side straight draw Kydex belt holsters.
On signal, draw, level gun on target just over the holster, hipshot.
Six times per gun.
1911 .45 ACP average 1.025 sec.
Glock 17 9mm average 1.017 sec.
S& W M19 .38 +P avrg. 1.042 sec.
All hits on target (not all Zero down, but no misses.)

Laugh at a one second draw if you will, but there was no real difference in action type for me. The third decimal place has no mathematical significance and the second probably no statistical meaning, but that is what it took to separate three very different guns. The times ran from 0.85 sec to 1.13 sec over 18 tries. Oddly enough both the high and the low were with the revolver.

[Sean Smith]

Oddall suggestion: if you can find one, consider a Colt 9mm or .38 Super Lightweight Commander. Even .38 Super is basically 9mm +P power level, so the recoil won't be a big deal (and probably nicer than a tiny blowback .380). It will have a manual safety, be friendly for smaller hands that women tend to have, easy to shoot well, and flat for easy concealability for its size.

Heck, it can't be worse advice than telling inexperienced women shooters to go with lightweight snubbies with horrible triggers.

:neener:

[BLiTzNicK]

The thing I like about the location of the Smith & Wesson slide safety, is that it can be easily disengaged while still holstered. I can draw and fire my 669 just as fast as my Glock. I do this by sweeping the safety of with my thumb as I get a grip on the Smith. The safety is off before I clear Kydex. It works great.

[Walt Sherrill]

The thing I like about the location of the Smith & Wesson slide safety, is that it can be easily disengaged while still holstered. I can draw and fire my 669 just as fast as my Glock. I do this by sweeping the safety of with my thumb as I get a grip on the Smith. The safety is off before I clear Kydex. It works great.I'm sure you'll think I'm an idiot for responding like this, but...

If you're flipping the safety OFF before you get the gun out of the holster, why are you even bothering to use the safety in the first place?

The point where you're most likely to have a accidental discharge is NOT while the gun is setting safely in its holster, but during the first fractions of a second as the gun is being drawn.

If you continue this technique -- and try to use this technique in a real life/death situation, when you're scared, under great pressure, maybe trying to move, etc. -- the person most likely to get shot with your weapon is you, not the bad guy.

[Handy]

Walt,

The point of using a safety on a DA gun is usually to provide against the gun being nabbed and turned on you. Since the S&W autos are designed to be carried off safe (relying on the DA trigger), removing the safety in the first part of the draw makes perfect sense-after you do it you have something exactly as safe as a SIG.

Your concerns make more sense in a discussion of SA autos, like the BHP or 1911.

[Walt Sherrill]

I understood the theory. And I understand, also, that you aren't ADVOCATING any particular practice -- just explaining.

These extra safety steps -- like mag safeties, for example, -- have been done to protect police officers who must carry in some harsh environments and face a lot of unexpected assaults.

Holster makers have since come up with double and triple retention holsters that do a far better job of protecting the security of the firearm (and its owner) than any gun-mounted safety.

As you say, after the safety's off, its not any different than if you were shooting a SIG. Its also not any different than if you were carrying a GLOCK, or a CZ, or a Ruger, and its not an issue with all the revolvers that are carried (some by police officers); why is it an issue with a S&W?

I'd argue that you should either flip the safety off after the gun has cleared the holster (and its not a threat to your own body), or simply don't use the safety in the first place... Its that extra, complicating (but critical step) that worried me. K.I.S.S!

[Chuck Perry]

How about this ? http://www.paraord.com/pages/single/C645.html

Double action auto with manual safety, CCW proportions, major caliber.

[BevrFevr]

I have no experience with them but the firestorm mini .45 by bersa is small and the saftey is a nearly perfect design for my small hands. They are a new design and I just love the feel but I'll wait for more data myself.

Good Luck -bevr

[Handy]

Walt,

I agree an extra safety lever just complicates things-I like the Sig system better. I was just pointing out that when you release the safety on a S&W, Beretta, Ruger type you aren't doing anything that greatly affects the safety of the shooter-so it doesn't matter when you do it.

Your point seems more to be that it is a dumb practice to do it in the first place - and it may be. But if one does wish to carry that way, the main issue is getting the thing off prior to firing. If the most reliable and efficient method is during the draw, then that is the best time to flip off that safety.

All of that goes only for DAs with a safety, not cocked and locked.

I would go a step further than what you said: If you aren't ever going to carry a DA pistol on safe, do not carry a gun that has a safety (decock only, DAO). That way there can be no confusion or possibility of the weapon not firing. And if it has a safety, you had better be pushing on it to make SURE it's off, whether you thought you set it or not.

[MrAcheson]

I believe one of the CZ compacts has a true manual C&L safety rather than a decocker. Its listed on the CZ USA website.

[MLH]

If her hands fit it. You can carry it any way you want to. Cocked & Locked or DA with safety off or on as it has a firing pin safety built in too. Trigger has to be pulled to fire. The safety will free up with a little use.

[renaissance]

Para Ord
Carry or Companion
Light Double Action
Plus
A Manual Safety over that

Can't do better than that (without unloading it)

[Walt Sherrill]

Your point seems more to be that it is a dumb practice to do it in the first place - and it may be. But if one does wish to carry that way, the main issue is getting the thing off prior to firing. If the most reliable and efficient method is during the draw, then that is the best time to flip off that safety.I don't think that you and I disagree on this at all.

If someone feels more secure by using the safety with a holstered gun, then they should do so. As you note, I question the amount of additional "safety" added by doing so, but I understand why some might prefer to go that route.

But I'd argue that IF you're going to use the safety with a holstered gun, then you ought to leave the safety on until the gun is out of the holster and you've got the gun pointed away from your leg/body and preparing to cover a bad guy.

Trying to release the safety while the gun is still in the holster further complicates an already complex and potentially dangerous process, and when your life's at risk, any complexity or additional risk you can avoid should be avoided.

[priv8ter]

I just want to thank everyone for their input so far. Right now, I think I am leaning towards a Beretta Tomcat. Actually, I want to get one of the Alleycats...

But.

This Friday, my darling mother has offered to take our dearest daughter(8 months old) for the whole weekend, so sometime, the wife and I have a date to go to a gun range in Bellevue and rent some guns. If she finds she likes .45's, then I hope she likes either a S&W Chiefs Special, or the Para Ord C-6.

Wish me luck!

[10-Ring]

Good luck and have FUN! ;)

[Logistar]

I had a similar situation. This is not a recommendation but an option.

A Taurus PT-111 has both a manual safety and the trigger LOCK. She will feel safe with that for sure. Recoil isn't bad for a 9mm. I do not carry the Taurus with the safety on however. Initially I did. I know how she feels but eventually she will probably want to carry with it off.

It appears that Taurus is putting stronger recoil springs in the PT-111s. I ordered a replacement and after it has been in the gun for a while, it is still noticeably stronger. I think that will help with the pin shearing problem that I have heard about on some PT-111s. (Mine has been perfect - over 700 rounds.) You might want to check it out at least. Most people who have shot mine like it. The only complaints have been the DA trigger. No problem for me though.... I WANTED a deliberate pull.



Logistar

[mattk]

I can beat a GLock from draw with my 1911 and BHP and cz75 ST IPSC. Why because I draw these guns ALOT and rest my thumb on top of the safety. I have done it so much that it is almost natural. Shoot lots of IPSC and IDPA with a SA gun using high thumbs hold and you will see what I mean. Its all about muscle memory.

That said, is a super fast draw really that important in self defense. Probably not. Unless of course its a showdown at high noon.

As for a gun recommendation, I agree with MK11 one of the Beretta .380s with a frame mounted safety is a good way to go as is the Colt mustang. So is the CZ83 or 75 compact.
Para Ordnance's little guns have reliablity problems and QC problems. I know from selling them and sending them back for unsatisfied customers. Yes the LDA trigger feels nice but the reset sucks, they rust(yes I know their stainless, they rusted in our showcase), and they dont run

[Deuce]

Jim, thanks for the update. Very interesting. Just out of curiosity, were you disengaging the safety before the gun cleared the holster? I also realized, thanks to MattK's post, that we may have had a miscommunication ... possibly. The drill we did was with arms hanging at sides and a cover garment (light jacket opened in front). As such, I could not "rest" my thumb on the safety. As well, as I'm not practiced in "quick draw", I am not comfortable disengaging the safety on a 1911 before it is at least 30 degrees forward (from vertical down) and clear of the holster. I also made sure to keep my finger out of the trigger guard until the gun was nearing level as well and it is possible that the others I shot with were putting it in as soon as it was available.

Perhaps when the weather warms up around here I'll try the same drill (just gotta get a timer). As it is, our indoor ranges do not allow drawing (except during competition, and I don't want to ruflle any feathers trying my experiment during that). Another drill I'd like to try at that time would be the typical IPSC start with the gun lying on a table, and you're seated with both palms flat on table (except, for this experiment, I'd probably stand). That would eliminate any hesitation I'd have with regard to muzzle direction and allow me to simply grab the gun and fire at a 2yds target as fast as I can ... from there, it's simply drawing from the holster.

MattK, the point of the drill I mentioned was that the BG is on you before you know what's going on. And, I tend to believe that this is most common in CCW situations. The more time between presenting the gun and actually shooting the BG affords the BG more opportunity to respond to the presentation. Are you suggesting that one who wishes to CCW need not concern themselves with this drill? I have no clue what your interpretation of "super fast draw" is.