[Nightcrawler]

I'm trying to find a respectful way to ask this question. I mean, for many, talking about their experiences in war is a difficult task.

So, if you don't mind my asking, has anyone here carried a shotgun into a war zone? Even though they've been very rarely issued, as Dave McC says, they always find their way into the war. I saw troops in Iraq clearing a house with a bone stock Remington 870, for example (on TV).

So, did you carry a shotgun in a war zone? If so, what kind? If you don't mind disclosing it, how'd you get your hands on it? Was it issue, or acquired through the, erm, alternate supply chain? Why'd you choose it over, say, a rifle?

Thanks!

[Dave McCracken]

SEA, 1970. A battered 97 Winchester was part of our crew equipment.Dunno how it got there. It was a riot barreled job but no heat shield nor bayonet lug. I used it on sentry duty a few times, and it was comforting to me. Never fired a shot other than familiarization with it. Firefights are what M-14s are made for.

It was for night fighting, done close and fast.

[Nightcrawler]

You know, Dave, I always though that's where a shotgun would excell. At night, when it's so dark you can't see your sights, muchless get a good sight picture, and even if you could, you can't see anything more than 20 feet in front of you anyways.

Seems that a shotgun with a bead sight would be about ideal, barring aiming gizmos like a red dot or something.

[HSMITH]

I used one for boarding party security detail enforcing the UN sanctions against Iraq during the first gulf war and operations following the war. Never shot anyone with it, and only was close once to shooting someone with it but he "saw the light" in the black hole that was pointed right at his chest and ceased his activities PRONTO.

Shotguns are fantastic for close range fast work where the troops involved are not trained in the effective implementation of a sub-machinegun. Shipboard work is one place where the shotgun is very well suited, the ricochet potential is much lower with the buckshot than it would be with a jacketed bullet in a solid steel structure. Subguns are better in most cases when the troops have the extensive training needed to use them correctly and well though.

I felt quite well armed going into harm's way with a pumpgun full of OO and an old rattling GI 1911A1 on my hip....

[oscar]

In VietNam MP's carried them as did troops in the field. There is a forum that discusses military shotguns.

[Gordon]

I carried a parkerized Ithaca Mod 37 riot with 20 inch barrel and extended magazine. My father sent it over to me in 1968 after I weathered TET virtually unarmed, in a hotel in Saigon (the Continental) . Seems they didn't inspect care packages COMING OVER to VN! I sold the gun to another when I left that first tour. I used to carry it taken down when I was in rifle country ( but on a bad op)and as I remember I used to hump 25 brass US issue 00buckshot shells. It was REAL nice in a bunker under the bed in a fire support base . . Funny thing; only confirmed kill I got was with a 1911 at 10 feet! I wish I had that model again I think mine was an LAPD overrun gun and my dad paid $100 for it as I remember!:cool:

[Nightcrawler]

Wow.

Hope others have got some interesting stories!

Oh, and I've never seen an Ithaca with an extended tube. Anybody got a picture?

[Gordon]

You know that was a long time ago, I THINK I remember the magazine being right behind muzzle. Pretty sure it was 7 round cap, definitely was 2 3/4" only. I am reasonably sure it was an LAPD issue gun, and it had bead sight only not DS.nice parkerizing with flat walnut wood and rattail forearm and sling swivels.Might have been 18" and maybe 5rds BUT I don't think so as everybody thought it was way cool back then, when I thumbed in at least six rounds!:confused:

[OEF_VET]

I know the Infantry companies within the 101st have Remington 870's in their arms rooms. I believe it's something like 1 per platoon. I believe they took them with us to Kosovo, but kept them in the arms room and didn't issue them out. They may have issued them in the 'Stan, but I'm not sure. Heck, they would have been totally useless in the Shah-i-Kowt valley anyways. I wouldn't doubt they're using them now though.

Frank

[Blain]

Firefights are what M-14s are made for

Seems as if you have quite a fondess for the M14, Dave, as well you should! Just curious on your field/combat experience with the M14 and how it preformed/held up? You familar with the www.battlerifles.com board? You may be interested in checking it out.

[Dave McCracken]

Blain, a certain M-14 saved me in SEA long ago. But, I was a scared half trained kid trying to get home, not some hero. And, my involvement was peripheral, not hip deep in VC all the time. Other folks had it much rougher.

I came out of it with a shoulder that tells me when rain is on the way, and a couple important lessons.

First, if it's not life threatening, it's just an annoyance, and not worth getting upset over.

Second, when honorable behavior was risky, I behaved honorably, and a couple pretty good guys made it home because of that. Saving lives is much more satisfying than taking them.

Third, some things should be taken to the grave, and are not to burden folks that love us with.

[fix]

Shotguns are a standard part of most unit armories. Their role depends mostly on the role of the unit. The most common uses are breaching and police work. Not many folks are willing to trade in a rifle for a shotgun when the possibility of a gunfight is involved. More of a tool than a weapon really.

[Leadbutt]

Carried an Ithaca model 37 that had the bbl cut down to in front of the pump handle and the butt cut off and grip rounded down, BBL had a duck bill spreader on it , and we used nu-4 buckshot ,, also used the flechets in it all work well for what it was intended to do

[Okiecruffler]

One of the few war stories my grandfather tells is about a double barreled shot gun that he and another fella kept in a dugout on the Rhine. One of the locals had given it to them as he was getting outta dodge so to speak, along with a few hundred rounds of bird shot. He said they only had to use it a few times, and the birdshot wasn't lethal. But it sure kept the German's heads down until he could get another belt fed into the .30. Last I heard his friend still had it when he passed on.

[Gearhead Jim]

1965-1966, operation "Market Time" off the South Vietnamese coast, searching fishing boats for gun running. USS Vance, DER 387.

We used M-1 Garands (.30-06, not rechambered to 7.62), Thompsons, M1911A1 pistols, and Model 97 "riot" guns loaded with military brass shells when doing boarding parties. If you wanted to look cool in a picture, you carried the Thompson. If you thought there might be a fight, you carried the 97. Didn't have to shoot anyone.

[Detachment Charlie]

Former USN combat photographer carried a `97 during two fun-filled SEA tours.
Gentlemen, for things that go "bump in the night," 00 buckshot is wonderful medicine.

[Badger Arms]

Might be laughable, but I carried a Riot 870 daily for about 6 months of wildlife patrol. I've killed with a shotgun on duty probably more times than anybody. I'd kept a running count because the Feds wanted us to report the number of waterfowl we'd taken. IIRC, last count was about 120 ducks of various flavors, 38 geese, 50 or so Pigeons, (but more than half of those were pelet-rifle shots) and a dozen or so Seagulls, and one assist on a two-legged injured fox! No, I didn't injure the fox myself, it was a trapped fox that got loose and I tracked it to put it down. I didn't lead enough... you'd be surprised how fast a fox can run on two legs!... and shot it in the behind.

On the shotguns, we qualified with five shots of OO buck plastic cased shooting at silhouettes at an indoor range. There were about 10 guns, half with the full-magazine bayonet lug setup and half with rifle-sighted IC barrels we'd bought for bear protection up here. Made it tough to shoot birds on the wing, but most of what we shot was on the ground. We had to buy steel shot at the BX to satisfy our waterfoul permit.

Drove a truck or HumVee through most of the work. Made us really appreciate SHORT BARRELS on a shotgun when you get in and out of the truck all day long. Also made us appreciate a sling that was there when you needed it but didn't get in the way of the trigger or foreend when you didn't need it!

Wasn't a war zone, but the Geese had killed 24 American and Canadian Airmen the year before. I sure as heck felt like we were saving lives.

[Sam]

Good job Badger,
Lost a good friend on that bird.

We have 10 shotguns in the locker, all 870's 18 1/2 " 5 shooters bead sights. Have taken them on every deployment, but other than as a comforter in the CP they dont get used much.

Earlier in my career I carried one in preference to the XCM177's that were hten being issued to dog handlers.
Never could hit beans with the 177 and the shotgun was perfect for wandering through a Phillipine swamp in the dark. Untricked Model 12 ocassionally one of those old "double humpbacked" Stevens pumps.


Sam

[Rob96]

Never could hit beans with the 177 and the shotgun was perfect for wandering through a Phillipine swamp in the dark

Sam, were you an SP at Clark AB?

[Sam]

Sure was Rob, 74-76 Cflt K-9. You spend some time over there?
1st Sgt for the 49 CES at Holloman now days.

The DoD local guards generally carried shotguns and GI,s carried a 16 or 177. Most GI's wouldn't have been caught dead with a shotgun but that was a status thing more than anything else

Sam

[Gewehr98]

http://mauser98.com/brass00bucktop.jpg



http://mauser98.com/brass00buckside.jpg



http://mauser98.com/brass00buckbottom.jpg

[Rob96]

You spend some time over there?

Yes I did. Dec. 88 thru Dec 90. I worked C flt. Security. Yes the DOD guards still carried shotguns. Their Flight Chiefs call sign was "Buckshot". It was an interesting two years to say the least.

[Gordon]

Yup Gewehr, I had some of that over the last 30years or so .I am kinda exicted Wolf is making something along that line now!:)

[Gewehr98]

My Dad retired from Olin's Badger Army Ammunition Plant. The guards carried this stuff in their trucks, along with the Model 12's and 870's. I was told it was favored because heat and humidity didn't affect the shells or their functioning in the guns when needed most. ;)

[Cooter Brown]

My air scout platooon supported LRRP's and RECON in '68-68. Both had shotgun men. I carried in my LOH (among other things) an M79 gernade launcher with buckshot loads. Very effective.

[Phil Ca]

In 1965/66 Vietnam with the Big Red One we had a 12 gauge shotgun that we kept on our main entry gate. The M14 was a bit much for the gate due to the possibility of over penetration.

On one re-supply convoy the lead jeep had an E-6 with double barrel, sawed off 12 guage. He said that while on patrol it was a great weapon to carry on point. If a VC popped up or crossed the trail, he would fire both barrels and drop, allowing the men behind to open up with M16s.

In 1963/64 while stationed with a hawk Missile outfit in the mountains of Korea we had a real hard time dealing with the "Slicky Boy" problem. That was the name of the thieves that would enter the compound over the 8 foot fence with outriggers and barbed wire and concertina wire on top. There was a double fence around part of the compound and a KATUSA dog handler with a K-9 on patrol at night. They still got in and one night stole valuables from the BOQ, watches, rings, razors etc. The captain mentioned that we had ben hit, during morning roll call. He declared that nothing big would ever be taken from the place, and a few weeks later, while he was in Seoul at Yongson, the thieves came in and got his stereo.

I did a survey of the compound and went to the orderly room and borrowed a tech manual on physical security. I read through it and then wrote up a four or six page treatise on how we might better secure our area. I passed it to the first sergeant and asked him to pass it on to the captain. One of my suggestions was to get rid of the .45 ACP pistols that we carried on interior guard duty and at the main gate. I suggested that we obtain the sturdy, 12 guage shotguns with the ventilated handguard and the bayonet stud. I suggested we get M1917 bayonets due to their length and then issue these on guard duty with 00 Buckshot.

About a month later as we were turning in our rifles after duty on the mountain where we had the Hawks, the armorer asked if I would stay behind and help him with something for a few minutes. I was well known in the unit as a gun person, since I had a personal pistol and a Savage over-under, rifle/shotgun in the arms room. I used the shotgun to go pheasant hunting with a sergeant and a warrant officer. After the troops had left he slid out a wooden crate and opened it up. Inside was a sight to make your heart beat a bit faster. There were 6 of the most beautiful/ugly shotguns with slings, bayonets and scabbards, that you ever saw! I showed him how to rig them up and he mentioned something about,"What person had this idea?'', in a not too pleasant tone. I just smiled inwardly.

As soon as we were able to go out and get everone in the unit to fire at least 5 qualification rounds, the shotguns replaced the pistols on guard duty. Guys grumbled a lot, but did not mind being seen for a photo to send home of them holding the shotgun with a fixed bayonet. One night during a heavy rain I looked out the window of our quonset hut and saw the guard walking the fence line. The shotgun with fixed bayonet was pointed down and slung from his shoulder under a poncho. As he walked down a small incline the bayonet made a little furrow in the mud. The main thing that really pleased me was that as long as I was there we were never infiltrated again. You could see the would-be thieves walking down the road carrying an A-frame with straw or bundles of twigs and glaring at the guard at the gate with the shotgun and fixed bayonet.

In 1959/61 I was in the USAF at Clark Field in the P.I. I worked 12 hour ????s in base supply, delivering priority parts to aircraft in the A&E shop, flight line and hydraulics shop. One night I had to go to a place I had never been before to obtain something that could not wait until morning. I knew there would be a DOD guard from the Negrito tribe thaat lived behind the base. I pulled in to the parking area with my pick-up truck and had the light on high beams. I rolled down the window enough so I could shout to the guard and not be overly exposed. When no one showed up, I opened the door and stepped out, careful to leave the door in front of me. The 4 foot 5 inch guard stepped out partially in the opening with his bow drawn and an arrow that was tipped with a wicked arrowhead shaped like a terrible fish hook, with barbs going every direction. After I gave the appropriate ID he let me go get what I had come for. Sometimes the Negritos were armed with a 12 guage that was slightly shorter than they were. They were barefoot with very tough soles. They wore the DOD unoform of that era and were very good about keeping people out of their area of responsibility.I would have liked to see them shoot some double 00 buckshot out of those old shotguns!

Going back a few years to 1956, I was a buck private at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland and assigned prison chaser one day. The sergeant at the stockade asked if any of us had NEVER shot the shotgun before. I was one of two of us out of five that had not. In front of the prisoners we would be dealing with he had us each fire a 00 buckshot round at a barrel filled with rainwater. We each hit it and we were now qualified to carry the shotgun and follow prisoners all over for the next 6 hours.

That about does it for shotguns and military stories. I have a few about training and using shotguns in the Treasury Department and the police department though for another time.:)

[Gordon]

My hats off to you, sir , for one of the (for me) best posts I've read. Yes the 'brown shoe' days were comfortable for us. I was in nam a year after you , I went in (ROTC) in 1961 , active in 64. I also went into Federal service after the Army. My father spoke lovingly of the Negritos in PI during WW2, they must of not been Democraps! If I beat you out for laser grips for J frame on internet the other day, I will sell them to you at cost, you seem to fit the profile of person I beat. If not G-d bless you and KEEP POSTING!!!!!!!!:) :) :)

[Sven]

I second Gordon's post - thanks for the detailed information, Phil Ca!

[Phil Ca]

Relax Gordon, I was not the one bidding against you, besides I sold my J frame many years ago.

The Negritos were responsible for saving lives of many American aviators during WW2. They were to be granted some special status and favors in perpetuity after the war was over. When I was there that received rice and other surplus items. They lived just outside the base not far from the hospital iirc. I took a tour of their village once. One of their favorite tricks was to shoot a MPC (paper scrip) out of someones outstretched hand with a bow and arrow. I bought a very wicked dagger like device concealed in a bamboo stalk. It had a barbed point and would not be something you would want to be stuck with. I don't know what became of the Negritos after the Mt. Pinatubo eruption that closed Clark Field. BTW their leader was known as King Alfonse. Several of us hired a guide from the village when we went hiking in the Zambales Mountains. He taught us how to find edible critters under the water.

Now back to shotguns, since that was the intent of this thread.

The December issue of SOF has an interesting article about what the USMC found out about what did and did not work in Iraq. The article is on page 16 and is written by Dale B. Cooper.



Shotguns: Not enough 12 gauge M1014 Joint Combat shotguns were issued to each infantry battalion for breaching in urban combat. Operators need at least one 12-gauge per squad with slugs----not 00 Buck----to blow the locks off doors.


I have seen a better round than that for breaching doors. It is made of brass or copper and is not likely to ricochet off any door hardware. I have been of the opinion for years that each military unit should have a shotgun in their arms room. When I used to take soldiers to the military prison in Mannheim, I had to carry a M2 carbine.

Regarding the "brown shoe" army becoming the "black shoe" army, I have a hilarious story about the change which took place in 1956 after I arrived in Germany. Most of my stories will appear in a book, if I can get off my duff and complete it.

BTW, Sven, I am usually accused of being too verbose because of the detailed information in my posts. :D

:)

[Sam]

Sorry for the OT folks
Phil,
Thought it was great that somebody remembered Alphonse.
Met him several times, wearing that "Admiral Dewey" navy jacked with the epaulets and carrying his writ from McArthur authorizing him to exterminate Japanese at $5.00 a head.

Sam