Does a +1 pocket pistol violate the 4 rules?


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hammerklavier
February 14, 2010, 04:09 PM
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2. Do not point a gun at someone or something you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
4. Be aware of your target and all else in the line of fire.

Does carrying a pocket pistol with one in the chamber (or revolver without one empty) violate rule number two? The rule does not stipulate that you must be holding the weapon in your hand before you apply. If it is sitting against your leg are you released from rule number 2?

When you sit down with a gun in your pocket, chances are it's going to be pointing at someone else. Or just walking around, it will be pointing at people's legs, small children, etc, every time you take a step forwards.

Now the rules say treat every gun, including unloaded guns, as if they were loaded. But this is in part because the person at the other end doesn't know the state of the gun. Since the gun is concealed, what they don't know won't hurt them.

So what do you think? Is carrying a +1 pocket pistol a violation of rule 2?

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Jon_Snow
February 14, 2010, 04:31 PM
Yes, it is, but so is almost any form of carry. The rules have to have some reasonable exceptions. Common sense is the important thing here.

jahwarrior
February 14, 2010, 04:37 PM
no. it should be assumed that all 4 rules work in tandem, so a gun in a pocket holster doesn't meet the requirements as a gun in hand does. otherwise, we'd need to transport our EDC in a shopping cart, 10' away from us, unloaded.

rcmodel
February 14, 2010, 04:50 PM
Any pocket pistol in my pocket is in a pocket holster with the trigger covered.
A gun in a holster with the trigger covered is not going to shoot by itself.

To follow the logic, you would have to keep the next revolver chamber to come up empty, not the one under the hammer.
That is the one that will roll under the hammer if the revolver is accidently cocked in your pocket somehow.

rc

ljnowell
February 14, 2010, 05:33 PM
The gun is either holstered, or if pocket carried being carried as designed. The only way it would violate #2 is if you were walking around with it in you hand pointing it at things.

NG VI
February 14, 2010, 06:12 PM
The four rules have absolutely nothing to do with the other person, except for the fact that it is for their safety as well as your own. What they think or know about your pistol is totally irrelevant to safe handling.

content
February 14, 2010, 06:40 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // No
Point is the key word, you point with your hand either your finger or something else held in your hand.

Webbj0219
February 14, 2010, 09:38 PM
Ha ha. I was thinking the same thing when I started carrying. I carry mine in an outside waistband holster that rides high, so the gun hides under my shirt. But the positioning of the gun is aimed so that if it went off the bullet would probably blow out my hip socket. its just aimed in such a way that the barrell of the gun rests just above the protruding socket bone of my hip. Anyway I was a lil worried about it going off and me needing a hip replacemnet at sucha young age. Ive decided its worth the risk, and after a while of it not going off I can trust it to not go off. The gun has an 11 pound trigger pull and there is a trigger gaurd, the holster also covers the trigger. So all this together makes it very near imposible that it will ever accidenally go off in my holster. same probable aplies to pocket carry. Id recomend using a pocket holster if your not already.

savit260
February 14, 2010, 09:57 PM
Once it's in a holster with the trigger covered, and your hand is off of the weapon, it's no longer able to go off, so it's fine.

atomd
February 15, 2010, 12:39 PM
2. Do not point a gun at someone or something you are not willing to destroy.

I'd bet lots of us have guns that are pointed at the wall of a safe right now....that doesn't mean we want to destroy our safes. A gun is an inanimate object. A person chooses how to handle it. The rules are for people, not guns.

19-3Ben
February 15, 2010, 01:04 PM
I voted no, but in reality, technically, the answer is yes.

Here's my logic:

Yes, in a pocket, it is going to be pointing at my leg, and when putting it in pocket, it's going to be pointing at my dangly bits. Both of which are appendages that I'd like to keep until a ripe old age.
Therefore it is a per se violation of rule #2.

However, the four rules cannot be looked at in a vacuum. I follow each law, but the laws must be followed in the totality of the circumstances. Using a standard of "the totality of the circumstances", yes pocket carry may be a violation of #2, but it does not create an unsafe condition. There is little to no risk of negligent discharge, nor self-inflicted injury.

jad0110
February 15, 2010, 01:08 PM
I voted maybe.

If you drop a gun (fully loaded or +1) in your pocket with no holster and other objects floating around (keys, flashlight, pocket knife, whatever), then I'd have to say yes. It is an ND waiting for a time and a place to happen.

If the gun is holstered with the trigger guard shielded, without any other crap in your pocket, and you aren't doing dumb stuff like "walking around with it in you hand pointing it at things", then I'd say no - you are good to go IMO.

19-3Ben
February 15, 2010, 01:10 PM
^^^^

Ahh yes. I should have also mentioned that. I had to remind my father of this when he started carrying.

If one puts other stuff in the pocket, then I would say it creates the opportunity for a dangerous situation to arise.
When I pocket carry, the LCP goes in pocket holster and goes in the pocket all alone. Nothing else in there.

HDStreet
February 15, 2010, 10:47 PM
Try racking in a round in your semi-auto when being charged by the BG. That's stupid. I always carry +1 and refuse not to.

I am an industrial electrician and that's like saying I have to suit up in my flash protective gear to unplug an energized 120v home lamp cord.

We are witnessing the dumbing of Americans through all these stupid laws and rules.

But by all means; double check your gear, use your brain and common sense. Be safe, work safe, play safe and think safe!

msb45
February 15, 2010, 11:42 PM
Voted no. The rules are for gun handling. A holstered weapon is being carried, not handled. Everytime you clean your gun you should inspect it for proper functioning, including safeties. Doing that will keep you safe.

The Lone Haranguer
February 16, 2010, 06:35 PM
The Rules are for handling and shooting the gun - coming into play the moment you put your hand on it - not while it is simply being carried.

mljdeckard
February 16, 2010, 06:41 PM
The four rules are firearm HANDLING rules. They are in effect while you are holding a gun. All forms of carry put the muzzle towards something you don't want to destroy.

19-3Ben
February 16, 2010, 07:36 PM
The four rules are firearm HANDLING rules. They are in effect while you are holding a gun.

So does the gun just magically fall into your pocket?;)
I don't know about you, but I have to grab my gun with my hands and put the gun in there. So until the gun has come to rest at the bottom of the pocket, it is being "handled" by your definition.

Quoheleth
February 16, 2010, 07:58 PM
You're overthinking this.
Safety first.
Common sense second.

Q

The Lone Haranguer
February 16, 2010, 08:19 PM
So does the gun just magically fall into your pocket?
As you said yourself in the rest of the post, the gun is being handled at that time. So keep it pointed away from your leg, foot, groin or femoral artery :uhoh: and your finger off the trigger and you will be fine. ;) Personally, I like to put my pocket gun into its Mika pocket holster first, then the gun and holster into my pocket.

Mainsail
February 16, 2010, 08:25 PM
The problem is that you don't know what the 'rules' really are. Somewhere along the line they had to be dumbed down because dumb people who wanted to have guns couldn't remember them.

First, they are the Four Rules for Handling Firearms.

Additionally, the first rule is to treat every gun as though it is loaded until you confirm (for yourself) that it is not. Defined the way you have it in the OP, you could never clean, demonstrate, or dry-fire your gun. Some people were too stupid for even the shortened rule, so it was shortened even more to "all guns are always loaded" which is even less true.

ljnowell
February 16, 2010, 09:10 PM
Additionally, the first rule is to treat every gun as though it is loaded until you confirm (for yourself) that it is not. Defined the way you have it in the OP, you could never clean, demonstrate, or dry-fire your gun. Some people were too stupid for even the shortened rule, so it was shortened even more to "all guns are always loaded" which is even less true.

Why woud you treat it any differently after verifying its unloaded? Many people with same atitude have been shot, shot someone, or shot someone else because "I checked it and it was unloaded."

Feed the antis.

shockwave
February 16, 2010, 09:34 PM
Voted no. The rules are for gun handling. A holstered weapon is being carried, not handled.

That's the correct answer. The rules do not apply to guns that are being transported safely (which is its own discussion), but guns that are being handled.

The other day I was cleaning some weapons at the table and because I was handling them, it was prudent to keep the barrels pointed away from me and anyone else in the home. Once cleaned, loaded and returned to their assigned areas, they are considered safe.

Mainsail
February 16, 2010, 11:05 PM
Why woud you treat it any differently after verifying its unloaded? Many people with same atitude have been shot, shot someone, or shot someone else because "I checked it and it was unloaded."

After verifying that my gun is unloaded I can clean it. I can also dry-fire it. I can show it to my friend. I can disassemble it. Those are all things that I would never do with a loaded gun.

It’s actually the attitude of complacency, caused by saying “all guns are always loaded” when you freely, willingly, and consistently ignore the rule, that causes someone to be shot “accidently”. If you say that “all guns are always loaded” and then treat it as though it isn’t loaded, by cleaning, dry-firing, or displaying it to a friend, then you are proving yourself either a liar or a dangerous gun owner.

hammerklavier
February 16, 2010, 11:18 PM
No, the first rule is there not just for your benefit, but for the benefit of people around you. So you can't "show it" to your friend if he didn't personally confirm it was unloaded. The other person has no way of knowing if it's unloaded or not, hence the "always" rule.

Mainsail
February 16, 2010, 11:22 PM
...you can't "show it" to your friend if he didn't personally confirm it was unloaded. The other person has no way of knowing if it's unloaded or not, hence the "always" rule.

If you're showing your friend a loaded gun you have no business owning any firearm. You see? Your so called rule is a lie. You freely admit to showing your friend a loaded gun, so the rule is a lie to you. If, as you say, all guns are always loaded, then why on earth would you hand a loaded gun to your friend?!?!

xXxplosive
February 16, 2010, 11:32 PM
Always carry +1 but in your pocket make sure it's not pointed at the twins.....:eek:

ljnowell
February 17, 2010, 01:32 AM
No, the first rule is there not just for your benefit, but for the benefit of people around you. So you can't "show it" to your friend if he didn't personally confirm it was unloaded. The other person has no way of knowing if it's unloaded or not, hence the "always" rule.


Just let him go. He is posting just to argue and see his own words. Read the other thread titled Rule #1, same thing there.

JEB
February 17, 2010, 11:54 PM
i really dont see it as being any different than any other iwb or owb holster

JohnKSa
February 18, 2010, 12:12 AM
It does not violate the safety rules IF it is in a holster that protects the trigger and prevents it from being operated.

If it is not in a holster that covers and protects the trigger then it shouldn't be pointed at anything you don't want to destroy whether the pistol is in your pocket or not.

azyogi
February 18, 2010, 12:29 AM
When I learned the 'RULES' there were five. The fifth being, Safety's aren't, see rule one. This one took more explaining than all the rest, for if safety's aren't safe, why the name? My mentor, beat into me by dent of the socratic method, the fact that only safe handling made a gun safe, not some mechina. I guess this rule got dropped due to it's complexity to explain, or maybe the passing of that method of instruction.

jakemccoy
February 18, 2010, 01:19 AM
I was going to post my thoughts, but the poll results pretty much answer the question. The people who answered yes were probably joking around or just want to be contrarians. The people who answered maybe are probably thinking too hard.

Cosmoline
February 18, 2010, 02:06 AM
Cooper's rules only apply if you're handling the firearm folks. Otherwise you'd never be able to even store the things. Even then they don't really apply to teardowns, cleanings, inspections, etc. or you'd never be able to inspect a barrel's crown. Absolutes without a common sense interpretation become absurdities.

You'd need to come up with a different set of rules for holstering and storage. These matters were not Cooper's concern when he came up with the four rules. Whether or not a trigger-blocking holster is required for carry depends greatly on the type of firearm in question. For a single action semi with one in the tube I'd say yeah. For a double action revolver? Not really.

usp9
February 18, 2010, 08:40 AM
Does a +1 pocket pistol violate the 4 rules?

A "maybe" vote. Real life is a compromise. :scrutiny:

Warhawk83
February 18, 2010, 10:43 AM
Not for me,there is no way in hell my LCP will fire itself while in my pocket. I don't keep anything in the pocket that would even touch the 97 pound pull trigger either.

cskny
February 18, 2010, 09:06 PM
When I learned the 'RULES' there were five. The fifth being, Safety's aren't, see rule one. This one took more explaining than all the rest, for if safety's aren't safe, why the name? My mentor, beat into me by dent of the socratic method, the fact that only safe handling made a gun safe, not some mechina. I guess this rule got dropped due to it's complexity to explain, or maybe the passing of that method of instruction.



No, that one isn't gone! We had it recently in a class too.

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