45ACP Case Burns


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rwdwrt
February 14, 2010, 11:33 PM
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z269/rwdwrt/45ACPCASE001.jpg


What causes these burn / powder marks on the cases sides?
Is it the crimp? to heavy?
These where loaded with 5.1gr Tightgroup with 200gr Rainier RN plated bullets (1.26 COAL) and also some where 5.1 gr Tightgroup with 200gr Hornady HP XTP (1.23 COAL) , brass is Starline and wolf primers where used.
Firearm is SA XD 45 compact and loading dies where LEE with the crimp being the factory crimp die set at one full turn after contact with case mouth at setting.http://<a href="http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z269/rwdwrt/?action=view&current=45ACPCASE001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z269/rwdwrt/45ACPCASE001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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zxcvbob
February 14, 2010, 11:42 PM
Titegroup just does that. It's one reason I don't like it.

Sunray
February 14, 2010, 11:47 PM
Please reduce the size of your picture.
For some reason the case isn't expanding to seal the chamber. The load is well under max of 5.4. Your crimp, that should be a taper crimp only, might be uneven. Not likely. I'd have a look at the chamber.

Balrog
February 15, 2010, 12:27 AM
Titegroup just does that. It has been described in several other threads here. I load 45 ACP with titegroup, and most of the cases come out smoked. It cleans up easy in the tumbler though.

TonyAngel
February 15, 2010, 12:37 AM
I don't know that it would be right to just say that titegroup just does that. I've never loaded with titegroup, but those cases sure look like they didn't expand enough to seal the brass in the chamber as the rounds went off. As mentioned above, I'd check your crimp. What are you crimping with? Are you sure that your chamber is perfectly round?

From one post, I gather that your load is well under the max. If this is true, you might want to bump the load up a couple of tenths of a grain and see if you can get them to seal up in the chamber when they go off.

If you are trying to shoot light loads, maybe trying a faster powder will help.

Randy1911
February 15, 2010, 01:04 AM
The only cases that I've seen like that have always had too low a pressure to seal the chamber.

Sunray
February 15, 2010, 01:30 AM
"...cases come out smoked..." Those cases aren't smoked. They've been flamed. Might have been cooked enough to ruin the cases too.

Balrog
February 15, 2010, 08:43 AM
I've never loaded with titegroup, but those cases sure look like they didn't expand enough to seal the brass in the chamber as the rounds went off.

I think the reason you don't think titegroup does that is because you hae never loaded with titegroup. Those burns are a little larger than moste titegroup burns I have seen.

Walkalong
February 15, 2010, 08:49 AM
Titegroup just does that. It's one reason I don't like it. Yep.

Ever hear of the "Titegroup stain"? I first read about in in a mag somewhere, and then experienced it when trying Titegroup.

That said, the lack of pressure, or pressure sustained long enough, in any caliber with any powder, can blacken the sides of cases due to a lack of a good seal in the chamber.

It certainly isn't your crimp doing it in that load. The crimp has very, very little to do with how well the powder burns in a .45 ACP load.

Try some AA #2, or WST, or Clays, or N320, and watch most of the blackening go away, and 99% of the stain.

Those cases aren't smoked. They've been flamed. Might have been cooked enough to ruin the cases too. Yep. Stained, not just smoked up, but no, it hasn't hurt the cases.

bds
February 15, 2010, 11:29 AM
Can you try varying the powder charges to see if the burns continue? Make several loads with 2-3/10 grain increments.

If that doesn't help, do you have other powder you can try?

The Bushmaster
February 15, 2010, 11:33 AM
Resize/decap, prime, load and fire them again...Repeat as necessary...Titegroup isn't the only powder that will "burn" a case like that. No harm at all.

rwdwrt
February 15, 2010, 05:45 PM
Thanks folks, just good to hear this is not uncommon, the shells all shot well. I think i will bump up the charge. The next slot in my LEE turrent disk is 5.4gr of Tightgroup, I may just give it a try. the max for FMJ bullets is 5.2 and the max for Lead is 5.4, at least in the Hogedon manual, my Hornady manual shows 5.5 as max for a 200gr FMJ, if I remember correctly. :p

Mikey_P
February 15, 2010, 06:06 PM
Wow! I was just going to start a thread about this. I shot a lot yesterday and that is how my cases looked. I didn't load them but it's nice to know not a big deal. Thanks guys.

idahoglock36
February 15, 2010, 08:53 PM
I'm getting the same results with WST. 4.7 over a Missouri Bullet IDP #4 200 grain. I just ordered some of their softer Cowboy #4 to see if I get a better seal.

It does clean up easily though and I haven't been that worried about it.

Walkalong
February 15, 2010, 08:56 PM
WST shot very clean for me. I like it.

Randy1911
February 15, 2010, 09:34 PM
I load my target loads with W231. I never get burns on the outside of the case. My load: 200 gr. LSWC, 5.4 grs. W231 and Win. large primer, COL 1.250 and crimp to .470.

idahoglock36
February 15, 2010, 09:40 PM
I guess I should clarify. I really, really like WST. I have shot a bunch and will continue to use it.

With the combination I mentioned I am having problems. This is a relative new combo for me and I think it is not related to the powder or bullet (but my combination of the two). I think I'm not pushing it fast enough to get a seal...I have also mentioned on another thread I am getting some leading from this combo....Kind of reinforces my thought that I'm not getting the bullets up to speed. The bullets shoot really soft and the brass falls at my feet.

So I'm going to use a softer bullet. As far as WST it has always been super clean and is now my choice for .45, 9mm and .38.

TheotherMikeG
February 15, 2010, 09:45 PM
One of my favorite loads is 5.2 gr titegroup under a 200 gr swc. I've never noticed any flaming, but I'll be paying closer attention.

bullseye308
February 18, 2010, 06:34 PM
The next slot in my LEE turrent disk is 5.4gr of Tightgroup, I may just give it a try. the max for FMJ bullets is 5.2 and the max for Lead is 5.4, at least in the Hogedon manual, my Hornady manual shows 5.5 as max for a 200gr FMJ, if I remember correctly.

Just caught that and it looked wrong. You are weighing these on an actual scale, right?:what: Not going by what the Lee paper says that hole will drop? :eek: Please tell me you have an actual scale and use it so I can sleep at night. :uhoh:

Just looking out for your safety. If you do have a scale and use it please disregard my last. :rolleyes:

JDGray
February 18, 2010, 07:06 PM
Just looking out for your safety. If you do have a scale and use it please disregard my last.

Always a great idea to weigh the charge.:)

But them disc usually drop light, or very close in my experiance, so no real danger of a splosian;)

TonyAngel
February 18, 2010, 07:53 PM
Yeah, always weigh the charges to make sure of what you are getting. Powder density changes from lot to lot. Although it will usually drop too light of a charge, it could go the other, and there are those powders where too light a charge can cause detonation.

ljnowell
February 18, 2010, 08:04 PM
if you are using a lee auto disk, i bet you arent getting as much powder in it as you think you are.

more forty fives
February 18, 2010, 10:49 PM
I have used almost 5lbs of titrgroup in 45acp over the last 6 month's and never seen a case burned like that.I do put a taper crimp on all my 45's.:fire:

Win1892
February 19, 2010, 05:37 PM
Win 231 solved that problem for me

streakr
February 20, 2010, 10:24 AM
3.9 Clays and a tight taper crimp should solve your problem

s

mallc
February 20, 2010, 10:38 AM
I switched to from W231 to Titegroup due to availability during the drought. It shoots clean and has a lot less smoke than W231. But golly...I haven't noticed it burning my brass. What am I doing wrong???

Scott

rwdwrt
February 20, 2010, 10:51 AM
Thanks Bullseye308, Yes I do weigh the charges, every 10th case or so I will check what the Lee Auto Disk is dropping with my scale. Plus I have deteremined ahead of time by dropping and weighing 5 to 10 times what each slot in the Lee Auto Disk is actually going to drop of the 4 different powders (Tightgroup, Universal, Longshot, H110 - I have a chart set up for this, I dont use the published chart) (these are the four powders I use for my pistol and revolver loads) as compared to the paper they include with the disks (the published paper is generally incorrect by 3 to 4 tenths). And usually the Lee Auto Disk drops fairly consistent, you have to do your part and be consistent with the speed and pull of your press though. Im a designer by trade and can't help myself to check and recheck things.

243winxb
February 20, 2010, 11:37 AM
Hotter primer is needed like WLP or a Mag.

Walkalong
February 20, 2010, 11:56 AM
What am I doing wrong???
Why nothing of course. :)

bds
February 20, 2010, 12:04 PM
Hotter primer is needed like WLP or a Mag.

I found Wolf primers comparable to Winchester in performance.

I have not used magnum primer for 45 ACP loads.

Walkalong
February 20, 2010, 12:06 PM
I never have either. Not needed.

243winxb
February 20, 2010, 11:31 PM
I have not used magnum primer for 45 ACP loads. I never have either. Not needed. I look at it this way. The WLP is the only large pistol primer in Winchesters line up. (the last i looked) The WLP will light up WW296, this takes a mag. type primer IMO. I have had smokey cases in 38 spec. with bullseye using std. primers, the mags clean it up also. Start low , work up the powder charge when changing any component.

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