The Titegroup Burn


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Balrog
February 15, 2010, 07:47 AM
I am curious how many people have noticed that Titegroup causes a burned looking area on the side of fired brass. I have noticed it everytime I fire rounds loaded with Titegroup. What causes it?

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Walkalong
February 15, 2010, 07:52 AM
It's a Titegroup thing.

357mag357
February 15, 2010, 08:45 AM
Balrod,

Same here. Very Strange.

Walkalong
February 15, 2010, 08:52 AM
It burns very hot. One of the moly coated bullet makers actually advised against using it with their bullets. Between the heat and the poor gas seal, it scorches the cases. You can do this with many powders with low charges. Titegroup just does it with normal load data.

Dave Bone
February 15, 2010, 09:46 AM
I don't know what caliber you are loading. Hodgdon recommends TiteGroup for the 40 S&W. I think that is a terrible choice! CUP can get dangerously high. I use HS6, for whatever that is worth.

Dave

tackstrp
February 15, 2010, 10:31 AM
I have two pounds of titegroup. I like the powder but golly bum, have to be so carefull with not making a double or triple charge. With short barreled compensated guns, i would think titegroup would be good choice to keep the flast down in low lite conditions. Wild guess on my part. I tumble clean in walnut hull. so have not noticed a problem.

Hondo 60
February 15, 2010, 11:32 AM
I too have noticed this. As a fairly new reloader, I didn't realize that not all powders do this.

I've also noticed it's especially difficult to clean winchester brass.

raz-0
February 15, 2010, 12:59 PM
Yes, titegroup does this. So do similarly fast powders. It happens for two reasons.

1) when chambering a round, it is actually in the chamber at a slight angle from being fed in up a ramp.

2) titegroup burns fast and hot. It burning fast means gas can get out before the brass fully expands. Hot means it is more noticable than with some other fast burning powders.


Interestingly enough, with the Schuemann AET barrels, they do actually keep the cartridges pretty straight (as they claim), and you get multiple blue-black marks from the odd fluting of the chambers in the AET barrels.

Also, I've noticed the more you underload the cartridge, the darker the mark. I'm assuming it is because the brass may never get expanded, and the low pressure means you are putting more gunkin the chamber. Not sure if it bonds some gunk to the case, or the buildup just makes the tilt more pronounced.

RidgwayCO
February 15, 2010, 01:25 PM
Ah, the "Titegroup stain" ...

Yes it does it, and no, not all powders do. None of the other Accurate, Alliant, Hodgdon, or VihtaVuori pistol powders I've tried has done this to my brass. And that includes the fast powders (VV N310, AA #2, Clays, Bullseye, etc.). Just my experience.

schmeky
February 15, 2010, 01:26 PM
I have never understood why folks use TG because of the "burn". It's been widely discussed.

Landric
February 15, 2010, 02:34 PM
I use Titegroup for my .45 ACP and .44 Russian handloads. Yes, it leave a burn mark or two on the cases. However, it is extremely consistent, it gets me the velocity I need, is cycles perfectly in my autoloaders, and it gets me what I need with low charge weights, which makes it economical.

The burn marks come off in the tumbler, so I don't see a problem.

raz-0
February 15, 2010, 02:37 PM
I use Titegroup for my .45 ACP and .44 Russian handloads. Yes, it leave a burn mark or two on the cases. However, it is extremely consistent, it gets me the velocity I need, is cycles perfectly in my autoloaders, and it gets me what I need with low charge weights, which makes it economical.

The burn marks come off in the tumbler, so I don't see a problem.

True, I didn't stop using titegroup because of the burn marks, I stopped because it si a VERY hot double base powder, and shooting USPSA, it was heating up my gun horribly, and causing issues with plated bullets.

THe Dove
February 15, 2010, 03:30 PM
Well I love it and my 45 ACP/SIG, Glock 22, and 45 LC love it too! Therefore, I will continue to use it. Just my opinion folks, sorry not everyone has the same results.

The Dove

bds
February 15, 2010, 05:27 PM
1) when chambering a round, it is actually in the chamber at a slight angle from being fed in up a ramp.

Well, the round may be at an angle during feeding. I notice that once the case bottom clears the mag lips, the mag spring tension on the follower pops the case up the slide breech and lines the case straight with the chamber and the slide continues to move forward ending with the case neck seated against the chamber with the slide locked against the back of the case.

2) titegroup burns fast and hot. It burning fast means gas can get out before the brass fully expands. Hot means it is more noticable than with some other fast burning powders.

So why doesn't similar burn rate powders like Bullseye and Red Dot do the same thing? My Bullseye loads do not end up with burn marks.

Walkalong
February 15, 2010, 05:39 PM
That's cause they don't call it Bullseye stain. :D

raz-0
February 15, 2010, 05:59 PM
Well, the round may be at an angle during feeding. I notice that once the case bottom clears the mag lips, the mag spring tension on the follower pops the case up the slide breech and lines the case straight with the chamber and the slide continues to move forward ending with the case neck seated against the chamber with the slide locked against the back of the case.

It is VERY CLOSE to straight. But it is not straight. breech faces are cut at an angle. That's why if you want to convert a .40 pistol to 9mm you can get a conversion barrel (smaller bore diameter lets you account for breech face angle difference while leaving sufficient barrel wall for the pressure), but not the other way around.

Also, the barrel is moving and changing relation to the slide/breechface/extractor right up until it is fully in battery. Your mag spring just gets it under the extractor hook. The act of chambering finishes lining it up. Otherwise it wouldn't touch the side of the chamber while chambering until it was almost all the way in. I haven't run into any semi auto that doesn't have some interaction between the loading round and barrel hood as things go up the ramp.

Like I said, I have one gun with an AET barrel where they make a point of trying to ensure it chambers concentrically. It exhibits the stain in multiple jets where the chamber fluting is rather than on one side.


So why doesn't similar burn rate powders like Bullseye and Red Dot do the same thing? My Bullseye loads do not end up with burn marks.

Some other powders DO do the same thing. Just not all, and titegroup is by far the darkest, and usually makes it the farthest down the brass. also, other powders tend to only do it noticeably when loading light. For example, 110pf .40 loads using zip do it a bit in my M&P, 137pf loads don't really do it much at all, and 155pf loads don't do it at all. Titegroup will do it at max book load and beyond. I suspect it has something to do with it being a double base (although I think UC and zip are both double base), or with the flash suppressant in it.

giving it even more thought, UC is really bulky there's more per pound, and more per FPS out the barrel. Zip weighs less per pound than TG, but you use more for the same FPS, so in actual use it is a bit mroe bulky than TG. Maybe the fact that you never really fill a case with teh stuff and it is lying on it's side makes a difference. TG is supposedly deliberately engineered to be insensitive to powder distributon/placement. I always assumed that meant it kind of flashed over.

In the end, the TG stain is pretty irrelevant. It's a pretty accurate powder with decent standard deviation. My problem with it was when shooting rapidly, it would get my slide unpleasantly hot, and couldn't be doing good things for my barrel. It was also causing issues with plated and moly coated lead when trying to make major power factor in .40.

SlamFire1
February 15, 2010, 06:02 PM
True, I didn't stop using titegroup because of the burn marks, I stopped because it si a VERY hot double base powder, and shooting USPSA, it was heating up my gun horribly, and causing issues with plated bullets

People wanted a "clean burning" powder, and they find out to have low residue the powder has to run hot.

"Clean burning" powders always sounded like a solution trying to find a problem. Now it sounds like a problem without a solution.

I am sticking to Bullseye, Unique, and W231. Filthy is good. :D

Crashbox
February 15, 2010, 06:51 PM
I'm in the same category as Yurko, I thought it was normal since I'm a relatively new reloader. Where the TG smudge is really noticeable is around the outside of the forcing cone and on the cylinder of my GP100, as well as the cases. It's almost like a thermoset polymer, it is not at all easy to remove.

bds
February 15, 2010, 07:03 PM
That's why if you want to convert a .40 pistol to 9mm you can get a conversion barrel (smaller bore diameter lets you account for breech face angle difference while leaving sufficient barrel wall for the pressure), but not the other way around.

And I thought because you couldn't bore a larger hole in a smaller barrel ... :uhoh:

I am sticking to Bullseye, Unique, and W231. Filthy is good.

Me too. :D

Jesse Heywood
February 15, 2010, 07:47 PM
I started reloading (for the third time) in December. I started with TiteGroup, then added W231 an Unique. It was a matter of availability.

So far I have fired about 500 rounds with TiteGroup, 300 with W231, and 150 with Unique. This has been in 45 Colt, 38 & 357, and 32-20, all in revolvers. I have not experienced the TiteGroup burn. On the outside of the cases I cannot see a visible difference. On the inside, the Unique loads have been the dirtiest.

I must be living right, cause I'm not lucky.

Walkalong
February 15, 2010, 07:51 PM
People wanted a "clean burning" powder, and they find out to have low residue the powder has to run hot. Perhaps with double based powders that's true. I don't know, but the single base Vihtavuori powders are ultra clean, run cool, and don't stain cases like Titegroup.

Bullseye and Power Pistol are 40% nitro content, and they don't do it, although they do leave more residue. Perhaps you are right. I certainly don't know.

Crashbox
February 15, 2010, 08:56 PM
If I discover something which will ease the TG smudge removal I'll be glad to share the discovery with y'all- I now have over 15 pounds of TG to use up.

I've tried Ed's Red with MEK and some cyclohexanone but it only partially removes the TG smudge. I've tried floor stripper containing 2-butoxyethanol with 10% ammonia added, similar results and may be even less effective.

The TG smudge is one tough animal.

RustyFN
February 15, 2010, 09:18 PM
If I discover something which will ease the TG smudge removal I'll be glad to share the discovery with y'all- I now have over 15 pounds of TG to use up.

I've tried Ed's Red with MEK and some cyclohexanone but it only partially removes the TG smudge. I've tried floor stripper containing 2-butoxyethanol with 10% ammonia added, similar results and may be even less effective.

The TG smudge is one tough animal.

I throw them in the tumbler with walnut media, 1/2 cap full of Nu Finish car polish and let it run for 1.5 hours. Never had a problem with it not coming off.

Crashbox
February 15, 2010, 09:43 PM
Hmmm... what's clear to me is clear to me... :D ...my bad.

I reckon I should have mentioned that my search/research for one or more chemicals to remove TG smudge is intended for firearm smudging... I have good success with my ultrasonic cleaner, though, with TG-smudged brass.

Balrog
February 15, 2010, 10:05 PM
I don't know, but the single base Vihtavuori powders are ultra clean, run cool, and don't stain cases like Titegroup

I tried a couple of Vihtavuori powders, and while they did seem maybe a little cleaner, I could never get a good load that would give me 850 fps with 230g FMJ 45 ACP. I think one of their powders did, I forget which one, but it was with noticably more recoil than Power Pistol.

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