Rule 1!


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Yo Mama
February 15, 2010, 10:58 AM
Guns are always loaded...right? No, I know my guns. Say my keltec p3at. Had not used it for about 6 months, and took it out of the safe to check on it. Pulled mag out, empty....right? Has to be, not used for 6 months and magazine empty. Hey just for kicks lets rack the slide.

.....round pops out and lands on floor. Holy sh*t!

I was not close to a ND, as my finger never touches the trigger, but man did I have a strong reinforcement for rule number 1!

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The Bushmaster
February 15, 2010, 11:20 AM
Rule two: Never point a firearm at anything that you do not wish to destroy...

mcdonl
February 15, 2010, 11:22 AM
The rules become muscle memory. There are times when I am handling my guns for cleaning, etc... and I will clear them multiple times in one session sometimes just because my muscles are in that habit.

General Geoff
February 15, 2010, 11:25 AM
Long as you assume all guns are always loaded, you should stay out of trouble.

ArchAngelCD
February 16, 2010, 03:18 AM
The rules are there to keep everyone safe and alive. Breaking any of the rules can cause loss of life. It's good you checked your Kel-Tec and it's good you obey the rules!! If everyone would there would be no more accidents. I know that will never happen because we are all human and fallible but we can all try...

Thanks for posting a reminder that the rules will keep you safe!

ozhuntsman
February 16, 2010, 03:27 AM
It's good you checked your Kel-Tec and it's good you obey the rules!! If everyone would there would be no more accidents.

saying its an accident means that no one is at fault, if you don't follow the safety rules and you shoot yourself as a result it isn't an accident, becuase you should have known better and you only have yourself to blame.

just my opinion.

ljnowell
February 16, 2010, 04:57 AM
saying its an accident means that no one is at fault, if you don't follow the safety rules and you shoot yourself as a result it isn't an accident, becuase you should have known better and you only have yourself to blame.

just my opinion.

While totally respecting your opinion, I disagree.

By this logic there are no traffic accidents either, because someone is almost always at fault. I think its just the common way of saying it. This one gets debated to the point of locked threads around here sometimes too, so we should probably let it go or suffer the consequences again.

JoeSlomo
February 16, 2010, 05:12 AM
saying its an accident means that no one is at fault, if you don't follow the safety rules and you shoot yourself as a result it isn't an accident, becuase you should have known better and you only have yourself to blame.

just my opinion.


I tend to agree.

T

twofifty
February 16, 2010, 05:29 AM
Nice thing about the rules is that they overlap such that injury or death are much less likely to happen, even if one rule is broken.

For example, safe muzzle control will make up for poor trigger control, and vice versa, in the event a loaded gun is not made safe. Not condoning slacking off here, just pointing out that the rules overlap.

The Bushmaster
February 16, 2010, 10:41 AM
Cause and effect people...No such thing as an accident or a AD...You did something wrong and it caused a bad thing to happen. That is "cause and effect". Car accident is not an accident even if we call it that. One driver did something to "cause" the "accident"...Somebody was "negligent"...:banghead:

lions
February 16, 2010, 12:30 PM
But why was the round in the chamber in the first place? You obviously did a good job being safe, I'm just saying if you can think back to how it got in there without you knowing it you might recognize something and prevent this from happening again.

Mainsail
February 16, 2010, 09:31 PM
Guns are always loaded...right?

Wrong. When I unload my gun it isn't loaded. When I check that a gun that's been out of my sight, even momentarily, isn't loaded, it isn't loaded. As mentioned in the other thread, the 'rules' were dumbed down about the same time as the schools were. After all, we don't want to damage someone's self esteem, even if it kills them.

WTBguns10kOK
February 16, 2010, 09:45 PM
^^^Holy cow Dr. Analstein, it's about safety not semantics. The OP's occurrence has happened to most everyone before, not all of us are gifted with a great memory. Gun is always loaded to me...

Mainsail
February 16, 2010, 10:21 PM
It’s not semantics. A rule, by definition, is inviolate. If you have a policy you can ignore at will, then it’s not a rule. If you claim that your rule is that all guns are always loaded, then either your guns are filthy dirty or you’re untruthful.

Imagine you're teaching someone to safely handle a firearm and you tell them, “Rule one is that all guns are always loaded!” Now imagine that same person sees you later dry-firing your gun. His or her question to you is, “Hey, didn’t you tell me, emphatically, that all guns are always loaded? You certainly don’t seem to be treating that gun as though it were loaded.”

If you ask me to babysit your 15 year old daughter, and we agree to a rule where I won’t molest her, you’re expecting me to obey the rule, not obey it sometime and ignore it other times. If we’re playing poker and the rules say that we each get five cards, but I sometimes take six, then you would be correct in proclaiming that I’m not obeying the rules of the game. If we play 22 hands of poker and we each get five cards, and on the 26th hand I take seven cards, I cannot say that I’ve followed the rules because I mostly followed the rules.

No, it’s not semantics whatsoever. We remember the rules correctly because they are the policies that keep us safe, and it emphasizes the criticality of them. If you shorten them for convenience or ignorance, then you’re creating an atmosphere of complacency. That’s how bad things happen, especially with guns.

lions
February 17, 2010, 01:17 AM
If you claim that your rule is that all guns are always loaded...

I believe the rule is, treat all guns as if they are loaded. IMHO of course. This will avoid semantics.

The Tennessean
February 17, 2010, 01:22 AM
It takes 21 times to create a habit, so, if you have problems following the four rules here's what you do.

Make it a point to review the four rules with yourself audibly (speak them to yourself) every single time you handle your firearms. If you have trouble remembering to review them then make a sign and post it on the wall where you keep your firearms so you always see it and remember to do it. Then, as you are handling your firearms, speak the rules again to yourself as you execute each of them.

After doing this 21 times the "rules" will become habit, they WILL BE your instinctual behavior, you won't have to remind yourself to do them, or make it a point to do them, you'll just do them, every time until you break the habit which would be very difficult. It takes 21 times of NOT doing something to break a habit. That's how the brain works.

Hope that helps. Not necessarily aimed at the OP, just something to think about.

Ohio Gun Guy
February 17, 2010, 01:51 AM
Just tonight I was getting one out, I had it out the other night. I always check, clear the gun each time i pick it up. Thought about not doing it......but did it anyway. My story is less dramatic, it was just as I left it, unloaded.

BUT thanks for sharing, this will help keep me from being lazy. :what:

WTBguns10kOK
February 17, 2010, 02:21 AM
Mainsail, do you expect me to read that? You're missing the point and wasting text. Stop for the love of this thread.

Yo Mama
February 18, 2010, 11:59 AM
Wrong. When I unload my gun it isn't loaded.

I "unloaded" mine, really thought I did, emptied mag and put rounds away, when I came back and removed mag 6 months later it reinforced it also. But that does nothing as I forgot the round in the chamber.

I never dry fire without snap caps, so trigger control was not an issue. Never quite thought of the rules overlapping as discussed, so thanks for that.

NMGonzo
February 18, 2010, 04:37 PM
Just keep them loaded and you are always right!!

jakemccoy
February 18, 2010, 05:27 PM
saying its an accident means that no one is at fault, if you don't follow the safety rules and you shoot yourself as a result it isn't an accident, becuase you should have known better and you only have yourself to blame.

I tend to agree. I would rather man up to my negligence if I unintentionally fire my gun. Negligence is fixable. Calling an unintentional discharge an accident shifts the blame and is childlike. (Note that if I'm defending myself in court, then my unintentional discharge was obviously an accident. :))

jakemccoy
February 18, 2010, 05:32 PM
Holy cow Dr. Analstein, it's about safety not semantics. The OP's occurrence has happened to most everyone before, not all of us are gifted with a great memory. Gun is always loaded to me...

I tend to agree. The KISS principle applies here and makes the world a better place.

Big Bill
February 18, 2010, 05:32 PM
After removing the mag, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS check the bore to make sure there is no cartridge in the barrel.

smoothdraw
February 18, 2010, 05:34 PM
While totally respecting your opinion, I disagree.

By this logic there are no traffic accidents either, because someone is almost always at fault. I think its just the common way of saying it. This one gets debated to the point of locked threads around here sometimes too, so we should probably let it go or suffer the consequences again.
But most traffic accidents also happens because somebody do not follow traffic safety rules... I might be wrong.

BCRider
February 18, 2010, 05:37 PM
When attending a shotgun handling and tatics course put on here the instructor would check for clear even if he set it down, turned to face us to say something then turned and picked it up only a few seconds later. He made it a point to suggest to us that it's a good habit to get into to visually clear any firearm each time it is picked up if it's been out of your sight for even a few seconds.

Up here I can't carry and the only place I can shoot my handguns is at a recognized range. Handguns are carried to and from in a secured container with a trigger lock or other disabling device. I've made it my iron clad habit to check each firearm immediately before the lock goes on and immediately as it comes off. Taking a page from that shotgun instructor's habit I will recheck before installing the lock even if I just cleared it and then turned to put some ammo or other bits into the range bag. I do this partly to drill it into myself to do the job right.

I've even made it a point to stop anyone that is talking to me or that I'm talking to and ask them to wait until I've cleared, locked and cased my guns before carrying on. No distractions allowed. I even do this at home despite the fact that I never load any live ammo so it could never become an issue. Snap caps or dummy loaded rounds with holes drilled into the cases to prove that they are dummies.

And yeah, the beauty of the rules is that they do overlap so even in a stressful situation if one check goes awry such as in this case due to other things on a mind or a distraction at the last moment the honest practice of the rules will save the day.

Mainsail, maybe you've been attentive and fastiduous so far and there has never been a hiccup. But most of us are human and suffer from human foibles so things can happen on occasion. I'm not defending that and certainly anyone worth their salt should beat themselves up about this and take some serious personal steps to help ensure it doesn't repeat.

But that's the point. The rules overlap so that it makes it that much harder to end up with a bad situation.

And FWIW I totally agree with you that there are no accidents where two people operating machinery are concerned. There is always neglect on one side or the other to cause an injury. The only true accidents are pure mechanical failure or where mother nature gets involved. Even then some accidents of mechanical failure can be attributed back to neglect in getting things inspected or serviced when it is known that they need it.

After all is it an accident if the brakes fail when the owner/operator has known for some time that they are beyond wear points or have some other condition that required servicing? I'd say no, it comes back to owner/operator neglect.

jakemccoy
February 18, 2010, 05:45 PM
Imagine you're teaching someone to safely handle a firearm and you tell them, “Rule one is that all guns are always loaded!” Now imagine that same person sees you later dry-firing your gun. His or her question to you is, “Hey, didn’t you tell me, emphatically, that all guns are always loaded? You certainly don’t seem to be treating that gun as though it were loaded.”


When I dry fire, I only point the gun at something that I'm willing to destroy. If I can't find such a backstop, then I don't dry fire. After all, the darn thing IS LOADED. :)

Now, since you are able to get yourself to a point that you say the gun is unloaded, then what's stopping you from pointing the gun at whatever you want? Is it the other rules? But your gun is not loaded, remember? So, why would you bother following the other rules at that point?

shockwave
February 18, 2010, 05:47 PM
Imagine you're teaching someone to safely handle a firearm and you tell them, “Rule one is that all guns are always loaded!”

Funny you should mention this. A friend wanted to go out shooting with me and see what it was like, so we sat down beforehand and reviewed the rules of safe handling. What I told him first was that you always "assume the gun is loaded." If you've cleared the magazine or chambers, performed a visual inspection, checked for one in the receiver, etc., and thoroughly confirmed that the gun is unloaded, then you aren't assuming anything anymore.

Also, if I'm at the table cleaning a gun, it stays pointed away from me, away from anyone else at the table and is pointed in a safe direction (safe backstop). These are just habits that are good to make automatic and reflexive.

Let's look at the OP's story again: If the gun was pointed in a safe direction, then even if it discharged no one would be injured. The rules of safety overlap in a very clever way.

Dnaltrop
February 18, 2010, 05:47 PM
20 years ago, one of my stupider friends knew about my family's shooting habits, and like many other idiotic teens took me upstairs to his Parent's bedroom and proceeded to draw a 9 mm Semi from underneath the mattress to try and impress me.

He proceeds to check the currently Empty chamber by pulling the slide, and begins to withdraw the clip.

I had enough time to utter, "Watch out, you just chambered"-"NO I didn't ~BANG~
The slug passed 12 inches to my left, threaded itself between a lamp, family photos, and gouged a 9 inch long cut in the wall before exiting the house.

1) ALWAYS LOADED, unless you have it disassembled... and even then, post a sign nearby advising against inserting the varied parts of the gun into any bodily orifices. (to avoid liability)

2) if you don't want something dead, keep it pointed downrange.

And for god's sakes, never underestimate the curiosity of kids trying to show off.

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2010, 05:48 PM
Mine are always loaded. Not as a reinforcement of the rule, but quite literallly, they're always loaded. I'll never be that guy who say's "I thought it wasn't loaded". I know they are.

Mainsail
February 18, 2010, 09:37 PM
Now, since you are able to get yourself to a point that you say the gun is unloaded, then what's stopping you from pointing the gun at whatever you want? Is it the other rules? But your gun is not loaded, remember? So, why would you bother following the other rules at that point?

Ok, I let it go since some people are so thin-skinned and weak minded…. but since you brought it up.

First, I always follow all the rules. Period.

The rule we refer to as Rule One is where there seems to be some debate. I’ve made the statement that a rule, by definition, must be inviolate or it’s a lie. So, what is Rule One?

All guns are always loaded? Or All guns are loaded until you verify that they are not?

The latter is the rule as I know it, and the rule that we all follow even if you claim the former. I made the statement that all guns are not always loaded, because if they were we would never dry-fire, clean, or hand them to a friend. I would not clean, dry-fire, or hand a loaded gun to a friend. Ever. Also, if all guns are always loaded, then you bought a loaded gun and you have no need to load it more before you carry it.

Some claim it’s all semantics or word play, but it’s not. The rule must be inviolate or it’s a lie. And it’s a dangerous lie at that. The rules must be followed all the time, under any circumstance. If you claim that Rule One is, “all guns are always loaded” and you treat it as though it’s not (by cleaning, dry-firing, etc.) then you are not truthfully following the rule.

Now, you asked, But your gun is not loaded, remember? So, why would you bother following the other rules at that point? I follow the other rules because I follow all the rules, all the time, remember? Just because I have verified that my gun is unloaded, and can now clean it or dry fire it, it does not under any circumstance mean that I’m suddenly going to start treating it carelessly! Just because the rule was dumbed down for a dumb audience, dos not obligate me to drink the koolaid along with them. I follow the rule as it was originally written, that all guns are to be treated as though they are loaded until I have verified that they are not. I have followed Rule One, just because it isn’t your version of rule one doesn’t make me a breaker of the Rule.

jakemccoy
February 18, 2010, 09:42 PM
I follow the other rules because I follow all the rules, all the time, remember? Just because I have verified that my gun is unloaded, and can now clean it or dry fire it, it does not under any circumstance mean that I’m suddenly going to start treating it carelessly! Just because the rule was dumbed down for a dumb audience, dos not obligate me to drink the koolaid along with them. I follow the rule as it was originally written, that all guns are to be treated as though they are loaded until I have verified that they are not. I have followed Rule One, just because it isn’t your version of rule one doesn’t make me a breaker of the Rule.

Here are the original Gun Safety Rules, as written by Jeff Cooper:

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

Your reasoning is quite common, but it is flawed. Your reasoning requires someone never to have a dumb moment. My intelligence is above average, but I definitely do have dumb moments. I don't trust anybody who claims they don't. I would like the Four Safety Rules to take care of the least common denominator inside of me.

Here's an example of how your reasoning is flawed. Let's say you're about to strip your gun. You check the gun 10 times and are comfortable with treating the gun as if it's unloaded. You go to pull the trigger because you have to pull the trigger to release the slide. That's fine because you've determined the gun is unloaded. For whatever strange reason, the gun fires when you pull the trigger. Using your reasoning, you can say that the gun firing was an "accident" because you checked 10 times to verify the gun was unloaded.

In contrast, I say, no, the gun is loaded until the gun ceases to be a gun, for example, when the gun parts are disassembled. So, when I go to strip the gun, I'm fully aware that "all guns are always loaded". I check 10 times to see if a round is in there. Nope, there is no round. I go to pull the trigger, pointing the gun in a safe direction because the darn thing IS LOADED even though I checked. For whatever strange reason, the gun fires when I pull the trigger. Instead of me being able to shrug off the incident as an "accident", I have to man up and take responsibility for some sort of negligence. Negligence is fixable behavior.

Mick3411
February 18, 2010, 09:55 PM
I have to admit to a ND this week. It is really embarrassing and truly all my fault. I was shooting in what is called a "tactical shoot" at my range. You load 10 rounds in two mags and move between barriers and shot at the "right, i.e bad guy" targets. Anyway, I completed the course, drop the mag, and without checking the chamber, drop the hammer (after all I fired 20 rounds). BANG! I must have loaded 11 rounds in the mag. Luckily it was pointed down range, but I felt like a jerk. I had made a huge assumption and didnt check the chamber. Lesson (luckily without incident) learned on my part

Mick

mljdeckard
February 18, 2010, 10:06 PM
There will be those who will try to scold you for leaving a round in the chamber and forgetting it was there. I will not do this. You followed the rules, and checked the weapon EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE THE LAST ONE TO USE IT. You willingness to be redundant in following safety rules made you and everyone around you safer.

Mainsail
February 18, 2010, 11:04 PM
You check the gun 10 times and are comfortable with treating the gun as if it's unloaded. You go to pull the trigger because you have to pull the trigger to release the slide. That's fine because you've determined the gun is unloaded. For whatever strange reason, the gun fires when you pull the trigger.

If you check the gun once and confirm it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. Most of us like to give it the once over a couple more times to be sure, but if you checked it properly and it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. What you are describing is impossible. If the gun is confirmed unloaded, it cannot possibly go off. Well, unless you really didn’t check it properly. In that case, it’s not magic or voodoo or whatever, it’s complacency or carelessness. People make a lot of excuses why their gun just ‘went off’ but it’s exactly that, an excuse. Unloaded guns do not fire, it’s completely impossible.

jakemccoy
February 18, 2010, 11:18 PM
If you check the gun once and confirm it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. Most of us like to give it the once over a couple more times to be sure, but if you checked it properly and it’s unloaded, it’s unloaded. What you are describing is impossible. If the gun is confirmed unloaded, it cannot possibly go off. Well, unless you really didn’t check it properly. In that case, it’s not magic or voodoo or whatever, it’s complacency or carelessness. People make a lot of excuses why their gun just ‘went off’ but it’s exactly that, an excuse. Unloaded guns do not fire, it’s completely impossible.

You must be going too fast because I surely hope you don't believe what you've wrote. Your first sentence is wrong right off the bat without even referring to Rule 1. You said a gun is unloaded if you've confirmed it's unloaded. That's incorrect, and I'm not even referring to Rule 1. It's possible for a human to confirm that a gun is unloaded while the gun is, nevertheless, actually loaded with a real live round in the chamber. (Again, I'm not even referring to Rule 1.) Humans make mistakes. The chance of making such a mistake may be extremely small for some humans, but the chance is still there for all humans. It's the pinnacle of arrogance to say such a mistake is impossible.

FoMoGo
February 18, 2010, 11:36 PM
I open the cyl on my revolvers and look thru them... It IS unloaded.
I drop the mag on my autoloaders, lock the slide back, visually check the chamber, poke a finger in the chamber... no cartridge... it IS unloaded.
I break my coach gun open and check the chambers... look thro the barral from the breech... it IS unloaded.
If you PROPERLY check that the weapon is unloaded... it IS unloaded.
If you screw it up... then, well... you roll the dice.


Jim

shockwave
February 18, 2010, 11:36 PM
Iíve made the statement that a rule, by definition, must be inviolate or itís a lie.

First off, let me say that this may be the most important discussion currently happening at High Road. So my "thank you" is extended to you readers.

Again, what is Rule One? The gun can fire a projectile. The easiest way to ensure you do not injure an innocent to not point the gun at one. Don't point the gun at someone unless you are willing to shoot them.

OK. So maybe you're cleaning your gun after a day of shooting. If I am in your home and we are talking or whatever and you point the gun you're cleaning at me I will be alarmed. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

The word "rule" is also a cognate for "guideline." Try thinking of it that way.

lions
February 19, 2010, 01:30 AM
At first I thought mainsail was caught up in semantics but the more others argue it, the more I see that wasn't the case.

It's possible for a human to confirm that a gun is unloaded while the gun is, nevertheless, actually loaded with a real live round in the chamber.
If that is the case, the gun was never confirmed to be unloaded. It may have been checked, and checked poorly, but if it was confirmed then it was confirmed, you can't have it both ways.

If you say every gun is always loaded I have two questions. Is it possible for a gun to be in a condition in which there are no cartridges in the magazine and/or chamber? If so, what would you call that condition?

Even though rule 1 as written by Col. Cooper says, all guns are always loaded, I think it is clear that it must mean either treat or assume (or insert your word of choice here) all guns are always loaded.

It's the pinnacle of arrogance to say such a mistake is impossible.

I don't think anyone is saying that making the mistake you describe is impossible. I am saying that when you confirm that the gun is unloaded and you pull the trigger to disassemble, and the gun does not go off, then the gun is and was unloaded.

jakemccoy
February 19, 2010, 01:37 AM
I open the cyl on my revolvers and look thru them... It IS unloaded.
I drop the mag on my autoloaders, lock the slide back, visually check the chamber, poke a finger in the chamber... no cartridge... it IS unloaded.
I break my coach gun open and check the chambers... look thro the barral from the breech... it IS unloaded.
If you PROPERLY check that the weapon is unloaded... it IS unloaded.
If you screw it up... then, well... you roll the dice.


Jim

I disagree. A gun is NOT unloaded merely because your five senses tell you the gun is unloaded. Your senses CAN be wrong, even though you're sure they're right. The senses getting it wrong has happened before to a human, and it will happen again. See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmRN00KbCr8

Are you the only one professional enough? This right here is the essence and purpose of Rule 1: All guns are always loaded.

lions
February 19, 2010, 01:44 AM
The gun is NOT unloaded merely because your five senses tell you the gun is unloaded.

Then how do you determine when it is safe to disassemble a gun for cleaning? I'm out of luck I guess because I got stuck with only 5 senses. It isn't magic, if you confirm the gun is unloaded, it is. If that wasn't the case we would never be able to clean our guns because we would be stuck in an endless loop of trying to verify the condition of a gun.

jakemccoy
February 19, 2010, 01:49 AM
Then how do you determine when it is safe to disassemble a gun for cleaning? I'm out of luck I guess because I got stuck with only 5 senses. It isn't magic, if you confirm the gun is unloaded, it is. If that wasn't the case we would never be able to clean our guns because we would be stuck in an endless loop of trying to verify the condition of a gun.

I covered cleaning in Post #31. And you are correct, you're senses are not good enough because it is possible for your senses to make a mistake.

=====

Here's the thing: Rule 1 is a freakin' safety rule! The ultimate purpose is to prevent someone from being killed. Having gun handlers repeat to themselves that "all guns are always loaded" will save more lives.

PT1911
February 19, 2010, 01:51 AM
if I check the gun as unloaded it is unloaded.. I will always treat a gun as though it is loaded until i can confirm without a doubt that it is unloaded.. if I put it down it is rechecked when I pick it up again... If one were to always treat a gun as loaded, they would never disassemble most guns (that require the trigger to be pulled for disassembly.. ie.. Glock, XD, M&P....etc) they would never clean the bore (or even check the bore for that matter...), and they would definitely never teach anyone how too shoot as you would never put a loaded gun into the hands of someone with no familiarity with a gun prior to extensive teaching AND UNLOADED gun handling.

Saying a gun is ALWAYS loade and should ALWAYS be treated as such is rediculous. They would always be respected.. always pointed in a safe direction, but first of all...one should always know the loaded/unloaded status by direct visualization.. THAT should be the first rule...

yes it is a safety rule.... easily understood but saying absolutely that every gun is loaded is just rediculous and no more true than saying every gun kills.

lions
February 19, 2010, 01:53 AM
...the gun is only unloaded if, in fact, the gun is unloaded. All guns are always loaded.

Do you see any problems with these two statements? I do.

Col. Cooper was clearly meant that you must treat all guns as if they are always loaded. Or, all guns are always loaded until you verify that they are not.

The only other explanation was that all of Col. Cooper's guns were literaly always loaded. Maybe that was the case, I don't know, but I do know that isn't what he meant with rule 1.

I'm out, my head hurts from the amazing difficulty derived from what should be simplicity.

lions
February 19, 2010, 01:56 AM
Nope again, I covered cleaning in Post #31.

And I covered post #31 in post #38, give it a read.

jakemccoy
February 19, 2010, 02:01 AM
Do you see any problems with these two statements? I do.

Col. Cooper was clearly meant that you must treat all guns as if they are always loaded. Or, all guns are always loaded until you verify that they are not.

The only other explanation was that all of Col. Cooper's guns were literaly always loaded. Maybe that was the case, I don't know, but I do know that isn't what he meant with rule 1.

I'm out, my head hurts from the amazing difficulty derived from would should be simplicity.

Your additional analysis has created the confusion.

What is the text of Rule 1 as written by Cooper?

But but but... you want to make it more complicated by changing the text.

jakemccoy
February 19, 2010, 02:06 AM
Do you see any problems with these two statements? I do.

No, I don't see the problem. A gun is not unloaded merely because your five senses tell you the gun is unloaded. You can check a gun a thousand times and confirm it's unloaded, but it's possible that your sense are wrong. Why is that so hard to understand? It's possible that you can, after all your checking, have the gun fire a round and that you were wrong.

lions
February 19, 2010, 02:06 AM
What is the text of Rule 1 as written by Cooper?
Humans make mistakes.

There you go.

Do you clean loaded guns? Do you dry fire loaded guns?
No, so there are clearly times when they are unloaded. That doesn't mean you can wave them around like an idiot, it just means there are no cartridges present.

lions
February 19, 2010, 02:09 AM
It's possible that you can, after all your checking, pull the trigger and have the gun fire a round.

Did I say that it wasn't?

Please enlighten me as to how you check that your guns are unloaded before you clean them.

ljnowell
February 19, 2010, 02:11 AM
what a joke this has become.

lions
February 19, 2010, 02:13 AM
what a joke this has become.
You know, I just went back to read it and you couldn't be more right. I'm done now.

Bullnettles
February 19, 2010, 02:16 AM
I always learned that you TREAT them as they're loaded, but that's just me. Good job OP, I've done the same thing. Swore I had unloaded it and there was one in the chamber. Now they just stay loaded and I don't worry about thinking they aren't :D. You other guys get really worked up over wording... I'm just glad he followed the rules.

WTBguns10kOK
February 19, 2010, 02:23 AM
Ya decent thread by the OP, but it devolved into pointless semantics, regardless of my attempt to thwart. As is often the case, many High Road sheep got sucked into a pointless debate with someone who misses the big picture. Of all the threads that get needlessly locked and yet this remains open...seen better reffing in the NBA...

Mainsail
February 19, 2010, 05:41 AM
It was never my intention to drive the thread off topic, I was merely trying to point out the dangerous condition that occurs when you apply a ‘rule’ that you cannot and will not follow. If you claim it’s just me being picky or relying on semantics, then maybe English (and guns) are too complicated for you. If you claim to treat all guns as though they are always loaded you’re being untruthful; you don’t follow your rule all the time. If you cannot follow the rule all the time or are just pretending to follow the rule when you already know you will not, you’re setting yourself up for a failure.

So let’s just agree to disagree. You [pretend to] follow your version of the rule and I’ll just keep following the actual rule.

The OP followed the rule and all ended well.

Bovice
February 19, 2010, 07:10 AM
I think Mainsail said it best. If you've ever done "dryfire" practice with your gun inside your house, you're not following the traditional gun safety rules. If you want to technically follow those rules, you should go to the range and bring your snap caps with you, and click click click click all day at a backstop.

By dry-firing in your house, you're not treating it like it's loaded, because you're pulling the trigger and fully expecting no "bang". You're also probably NOT intending to destroy your TV or window or drywall either by letting the muzzle sweep them, are you?

These "rules" are there to make sure you handle a gun properly. Clear the gun entirely, verify it's clear, and don't point it at people unless you have to.

If we always assume every gun is loaded at all times, what about cleaning (after verified empty)? If the gun is in 5 pieces and laying on the table, what then? Still loaded? No. It isn't. Until you reassemble it, stare down the barrel til your heart's content. It's like running through the house with imaginary scissors.

If you have the gun in your hand and you're all alone, and you've removed the magazine and checked your chamber, a live round is not going to magically appear inside the chamber, so don't worry yourself into a frenzy. However, if others are around, you're better suited to let them see that you're acting as if it's loaded and behaving accordingly to put them at ease, because they have not verified it for themselves.

gordy
February 19, 2010, 01:13 PM
Some years back a buddy and I went out to the range and had lots of boom boom time.:D When we were done we packed all our stuff to return home and cleaned the firearms. I was done cleaning my stuff, the phone rang. I got up to get the phone (Back when they were on the wall) I was talking to the girl I was dating at the time.:) Out of the silence came a very loud BOOM,:what: My buddy had shot my tv.:cuss: I know the gun was empty,:what: he told me.:eek: as I took the 38 revolver from him:fire:. The bullet never left the back of the tv. Thank God!
Lots of people get shot every year by empty guns. You can never check enough.

shockwave
February 19, 2010, 01:40 PM
If you've ever done "dryfire" practice with your gun inside your house, you're not following the traditional gun safety rules.

This is not correct. I've had an NRA instructor visit my home and received a personal safety training and handling class per NRA rules. The basic rules of firearm safety when I learned them were 3 (they didn't teach anything about finger inside/outside trigger guard).

Rule 1 has been stated several ways, being reworded a few times. It should be construed as meaning any gun you have not personally verified to be unloaded should be assumed loaded.

Once you have verified the gun is unloaded, you can safely dry fire or clean it or work on it, etc. The other rules still apply: don't point it at anyone, keep it pointed in a safe direction.

So, if I'm going to do some loading/unloading drills or whatnot, I don't point it at a family member, or out the window at my neighbor's house. Let's say I made a mistake and did not, in fact, verify the gun was empty. If it goes off, nobody is injured. So you should rethink your understanding of Rule 1 or else you'll have a hard time cleaning your weapons.

ljnowell
February 19, 2010, 03:21 PM
This is not correct. I've had an NRA instructor visit my home and received a personal safety training and handling class per NRA rules. The basic rules of firearm safety when I learned them were 3 (they didn't teach anything about finger inside/outside trigger guard).

Rule 1 has been stated several ways, being reworded a few times. It should be construed as meaning any gun you have not personally verified to be unloaded should be assumed loaded.

Once you have verified the gun is unloaded, you can safely dry fire or clean it or work on it, etc. The other rules still apply: don't point it at anyone, keep it pointed in a safe direction.

So, if I'm going to do some loading/unloading drills or whatnot, I don't point it at a family member, or out the window at my neighbor's house. Let's say I made a mistake and did not, in fact, verify the gun was empty. If it goes off, nobody is injured. So you should rethink your understanding of Rule 1 or else you'll have a hard time cleaning your weapons.

Dont do something silly and bring common sense into this thread. It will upset those arguing semantics pointlessly.

bwsmith2850
February 19, 2010, 04:37 PM
Cause and effect people...No such thing as an accident or a AD

Well I'm not sure about that. I had a few unintended discharges at the range one day. My first shot was intentional. The broken sear caused a few unintentional ones before the trigger was released.

Safety rules reduce problems, not eliminate them. Because I had my muzzle downrange the target and berm got extra holes but nothing that mattered was hit. The OP's habit of checking even though he knew the pistol should be unloaded saved him some potential problems. A good reminder to pay attention to safety at all times.

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