Is all that ammo necessary?


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BP Hunter
February 16, 2010, 02:01 PM
I have been CCWing for the nearly a year now. I initially started out with a Taurus Model 85 .38cal snubbie. I then thought that I was being undergunned, carrying the smallest acceptable sized caliber self defense ammo and carrying only 5 shots with one reload. Then I bought a Springfield XD9 fullsized pistol. Now I felt a little more comfortable carrying a larger caliber but now with 16 rounds and one in the pipe. Then I thought, I wanted a man stopper. So I bought a Taurus PT 145, now carrying the formidable 45 caliber 10 +1.

Us CCW's holders have to admit that we feel that we have to carry enough ammo or the largest caliber ammo possible to win in a gun fight. But truly, as non LEO's, how many shots are actually exchanged/fired by civilians? How much ammo do you need to carry?

Yes, I shoot/"train" regularly. I "train" by trying to put 2 or 3 placement shots to paper plates 7-10 yards away as fast as possible. So if ever I need to use my gun, I am confident is placing my shots.

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MichaelK
February 16, 2010, 02:13 PM
But truly, as non LEO's, how many shots are actually exchanged/fired by civilians? How much ammo do you need to carry?

Well, that depends. With a lone attacker, maybe you'll need just one shot. Maybe even being accosted by a group of gang members, still just one shot. The others might simply run for their lives.

What if it's an enraged pitpull defending it's turf? I wouldn't count on a single .45 round to stop a big dog! That's where you want as much firepower as you can muster.

Kingofthehill
February 16, 2010, 02:14 PM
its easy to conceal 2 spare magazine's.. now if they hold 7 or 19 thats another story.

Like the gun you carry, id rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

JOe

dom1104
February 16, 2010, 02:15 PM
Whats necessary for a hypothetical situation?

You wont know till you are in the real situation.

You want the gun that holds the most rounds, is the most concealable, and has the highest stopping power possible.

End of the story, you gotta find your balance of those factors.

Assuming of course you can shoot straight.

For me is a CZ P01 in a bladetech IWB holster with 15 rounds of 9mm.

I swayed more towards the "small and light enough to carry everyday" end of the scale as opposed to the "stopping power" end of it.


Whats important is that you have that gun with you 24/7. Every day. A 3lb 1911 in the safe has 0% stopping power.

481
February 16, 2010, 02:20 PM
Whats necessary for a hypothetical situation?

You wont know till you are in the real situation.


There you go. :)

Pray for the best. Prepare for the worst.

It is that easy.

mordechaianiliewicz
February 16, 2010, 02:22 PM
I like to have atleast 16 rounds in two mags. I can have as much as 51 or 52 rounds.

I might only have to use 2 or 3, or only 1 in a gunfight. But I'd rather have far more than I need than not enough.

armoredman
February 16, 2010, 02:27 PM
Something you never hear after a gunfight - "Dang, I wish I hadn't brought all that ammo!"

WoofersInc
February 16, 2010, 02:30 PM
I carry a 1911 as my main CCW. I always have 2 spare mags with me. You never know when Mr. Murphy will pop up. Having the ability to go to a second mag for whatever reason always helps.

rswartsell
February 16, 2010, 02:33 PM
MichaelK,

Don't want to hijack the thread, but 1 .45 acp solid HIT will knock the starch right out of 'ol slobberjaws pit bull (trust me). So you need at least 1 more round than the number of misses you throw.

mljdeckard
February 16, 2010, 02:46 PM
It's a fair enough question.

I have carried different setups, everything from a Glock 17 with three magazines for a total of 52 rounds to my current setup of a 1911 with 25 total rounds. I am currently considering dropping the third magazine for a flashlight.

There are a couple of different ways to look at this. One half of your brain says; "I'm not a cop, I only use my gun to get out of trouble, and I don't need to prepare to fight a war."

On the other hand, you don't know what will happen to you. This is why we carry in the first place. You don't know if you will be facing one attacker or multiple attackers. In February of 2007 a shooter went on a rampage in a place I visit frequently in Salt Lake City, Trolley Square. An off-duty cop is credited with stopping him, he had his 1911, and fired until he locked empty. If there had been MORE than ONE bad guy, he would have been in big trouble.

A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. It's NEVER good enough. There comes a point where you should have grabbed your long gun because you are trying to make your handgun do something it wasn't designed for. As a civilian, all you are trying to do is get away from trouble, a cop has to take on more responsibility than that.

A .45 ACP 1911 is what I shoot best. I carry two reloads because I want to be able to clear a malfunction. If I encounter a problem I can't solve with one reload in my 1911, it is unlikely that more reloads is going to help me either. Handguns aren't meant for sustained firefights, they are meant to be emergency lifesaving tools. As I put that third magazine in, I won't be thinking; "I really wish I had three more magazines for my pistol." I will be thinking, "I really wish I had my rifle right now."

christcorp
February 16, 2010, 03:55 PM
It all depends on how paranoid a person is. You didn't always have a concealed carry weapon. You probably didn't always have a carry weapon of any type. Yet, you were able to keep yourself safe. Usually with your brain. Where to walk, when to walk, how to walk, and many other mental tools. And that is the key to a firearm. It is simply a tool. If you realize that no gun ever saved a person; just like no gun ever killed a person; and that it's the person holding the gun that decides the outcome, then you will have your answer. The problem with guns is similar to welfare recipients. Instead of using it as a tool, to HELP YOU to help yourself, some people throw away their responsibilities and rely on the program. In this case, they rely on the gun. When you rely on yourself instead of the gun, you'll realize that a 5-6 shot revolver or a 7 round semi-auto is more than enough for any non-LEO/military usage. A 2nd magazine could be argued for in case there is a magazine/feeding malfunction. (Trading out the magazine is the simplest and quickest fix for most malfunctions). But the person who relies on themselves and not the gun, will be able to handle a threat if their firearm doesn't function, is not available, is taken away, etc...

I guess my next question is: What if you are in your home during a break in, and your gun is on the other side of the house. How would you defend yourself? Why is it any different than if your gun didn't function properly? Of course, there are some that carry a weapon on them 24/7 and will argue such a point. Paranoid? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe they prefer relying on the gun more than themselves. Similar to people who argue for the "Cocked and Locked" method of carrying their pistol. They don't trust themselves to be safe carrying a double action pistol/revolver, but for some reason they trust a mechanical safety or internal spring to be flawless.

dom1104
February 16, 2010, 04:04 PM
You didn't always have a concealed carry weapon...And that is the key to a firearm. It is simply a tool. If you realize that no gun ever saved a person; just like no gun ever killed a person; and that it's the person holding the gun that decides the outcome, then you will have your answer...But the person who relies on themselves and not the gun, will be able to handle a threat...


Anyone else getting the urge to say "Look Eye! Always looka eye!"

I feel the Mr. Miyagi vibe from this guy :)

Kingofthehill
February 16, 2010, 04:06 PM
also, you can't think of a spare mag as simply more ammo.

What if the gun jams? drop the mag, insert new one and keep going.

JOe

BP Hunter
February 16, 2010, 04:17 PM
Thank you for the very informative comments. I get it. The spare ammo is misfires and all.

When you rely on yourself instead of the gun, you'll realize that a 5-6 shot revolver or a 7 round semi-auto is more than enough for any non-LEO/military usage. This was very nicely put. It's funny that I realize that I have been doing this the whole time until I find out through the forum I was doing the right thing.

MikePGS
February 16, 2010, 04:19 PM
The answer is, whatever you feel comfortable with. There is absolutely no way you could know what will be sufficient. Just showing a naa derringer might cause one guy to run away, whereas a shot to the kneecaps from your H&K Mark 23 that you carry on you along with four magazines every single moment even in the shower might not do the trick. So unless you send out a survey to every potential thug in the area (and get honest answers) as to what will be effective for warding them off you can only rely on what makes you feel comfortable.

Snowdog
February 16, 2010, 04:21 PM
Well, a 9mm isn't a "larger caliber" than a .38 Special, but I know what you meant.

I also know what you're talking about when it comes to second-guessing your choice of defensive concealed handgun. Just as you, my first CCW was a Taurus 85 and soon after, I switched to a 9mm (Kahr K9). I then switched to a Officer model 1911 and then back to the K9.

On occasion, I'll carry a Bersa UC9 (13 +1) but still consider the K9 as my primary CCW handgun. It's only a 7 +1, but I feel adequately armed with it as I am proficient with it. I'm on my 12th year of CCW and I honestly believe 8 rounds of 9mm +P (plus spare 7 round magazine) will handle the vast majority of possible threats. I don't consider my handgun as my only defensive weapon, especially when I'm in the driver's seat of a 2-ton vehicle.

GRIZ22
February 16, 2010, 07:03 PM
You need to carry at least one reload for every gun you carry. If you reload and its not over you need to use those rounds to get out of wherever you are.

Mp7
February 16, 2010, 07:31 PM
a stick beats nothing.
If the stick jams its cool to have a stick reload.

as long as you bring a brain
and a stick as a backup i assume u will be fine
in 99,5% of cases.

i dont see people wearing parachutes on passenger flights ....:)

(in a high risk surrounding that wis different if course.
....)

mljdeckard
February 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
So, MP-7, you are ok with bringing a stick to a gunfight?

The Lone Haranguer
February 16, 2010, 07:52 PM
Provided it doesn't make the gun too large and unwieldy, more ammo can't hurt. I would prefer something with more than five shots if it is to be my only gun.

This man had a five-shot revolver. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/)
This man had a seven-shot pistol. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_33/ai_n31877381/) Personally, this is about the minimum I am comfortable with.

Guy de Loimbard
February 16, 2010, 07:59 PM
My most often carried pistol is a CZ 82. I carry two spare mags with it. That's 37 rounds if I need it. My biggest reason for carrying all that though is that the two magazines sit opposite the gun on my belt and help the whole rig balance a lot better. Plus, should I have a problem with a magazine (spring-related or otherwise) then I have two backups. It's like having an extra set of batteries for a digital camera. Of course you can take a lot more pictures with the extras. But if your main set goes down and you have no spares, you're sunk.

James T Thomas
February 16, 2010, 08:03 PM
My reply sounds cynical, and I don't intend it to be.

Confidence shooting paper targets is not close enough to shooting to save your life.
Don't be overconfident.

You may need some extra ammo and other things too.

Iggy
February 16, 2010, 08:04 PM
I never heard of a feller who had just been in a gun fight say, " Darn, I had way too much ammo!":evil:

isthatajoke?
February 16, 2010, 08:14 PM
It could be necessary. You just never know. The perp could be drugged up and not be deterred at first by the hits.

huntsman
February 16, 2010, 09:37 PM
How much ammo do you need to carry?

Well if mucho ammo is your desire they sell bandoliers or a tac-vest with lots of pockets.

For me it's one extra mag.

sharkman
February 16, 2010, 09:50 PM
Since I carry an autoloader I carry two spare mags. One in case I need it, another in case I drop the first one...Yes I practice mag exchanges but better safe than sorry....Total of 37 rounds of .40 cal, can't imagine needing that much but if I fumble a reload...

BullfrogKen
February 16, 2010, 09:58 PM
You didn't always have a concealed carry weapon. You probably didn't always have a carry weapon of any type. Yet, you were able to keep yourself safe. Usually with your brain. Where to walk, when to walk, how to walk, and many other mental tools. And that is the key to a firearm. It is simply a tool. If you realize that no gun ever saved a person; just like no gun ever killed a person; and that it's the person holding the gun that decides the outcome, then you will have your answer. . . . . But the person who relies on themselves and not the gun, will be able to handle a threat if their firearm doesn't function, is not available, is taken away, etc...


There's a lot of wisdom in that post. A whole lot . . .

Snowdog
February 16, 2010, 09:59 PM
Total of 37 rounds of .40 cal, can't imagine needing that much...

Explain your logic to the 38th assailant.

Kidding! :D

wrs840
February 16, 2010, 10:07 PM
If I'm carrying one 442 (like right now), there's two speedstrips in my pocket, total 17. If I'm carrying two revolvers (outside on the farm), four speedstrips, total 35 rounds. If I'm in business attire, I'm usually carrying two autos, one spare mag for each, for a total of 36 rounds.

Les

RKRCPA
February 16, 2010, 11:08 PM
Back when I owned a mini mart I carried a 1911 w/spare mag strongside, S&W Mdl19 snubby in a shoulder holster w/2 speedloaders and a Taurus Mdl 85 in an ankle holster w/speed strip. This was back in the '80's when it was commonplace to work the graveyard shift solo. I was not going to lose for lack of trying. Oh, and a 12 Ga. in the office.

It all depends on the situation and what you're comfortable with. These days I rarely carry a BUG, but I always have spare ammo.

khegglie
February 16, 2010, 11:18 PM
Now what do you think about a spare gun,,,,, ??

mljdeckard
February 17, 2010, 12:02 AM
A BUG is going to be a personal choice. We live in a world where bad things happen. If one bad thing can happen, (you're fighting for your life,) another bad thing can happen, and if you have my luck, bad things happen all at once. Your gun can fail for a variety of reasons. If you have another, it's a redundant plan. Most people can draw a second gun faster than they can reload the first one. (That's why they call it a New York reload.)

Having said that, I don't carry one. Two guns means two sensitive items that must be tracked, two mechanical systems that can fail, and an extra layer to the plan which you will have to execute under fire.

khegglie
February 17, 2010, 12:19 AM
RKRCPA said "I was not going to lose for lack of trying". I'm With him!!

Big Bill
February 17, 2010, 12:39 AM
If I try to carry too much ammo, my pants fall down!

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc269/lunatik487/Dear%20Whoever/ap_sagging_pants_071015_ms.jpg

GoodKat
February 17, 2010, 12:45 AM
Depends on the situation, for most, an empty, or even non-functional gun would suffice. The more ammo you have, the more situations you are prepared for.

Volfy
February 17, 2010, 01:59 PM
It all depends on how paranoid a person is. You didn't always have a concealed carry weapon. You probably didn't always have a carry weapon of any type. Yet, you were able to keep yourself safe. Usually with your brain. Where to walk, when to walk, how to walk, and many other mental tools. And that is the key to a firearm. It is simply a tool. If you realize that no gun ever saved a person; just like no gun ever killed a person; and that it's the person holding the gun that decides the outcome, then you will have your answer. The problem with guns is similar to welfare recipients. Instead of using it as a tool, to HELP YOU to help yourself, some people throw away their responsibilities and rely on the program. In this case, they rely on the gun. When you rely on yourself instead of the gun, you'll realize that a 5-6 shot revolver or a 7 round semi-auto is more than enough for any non-LEO/military usage. A 2nd magazine could be argued for in case there is a magazine/feeding malfunction. (Trading out the magazine is the simplest and quickest fix for most malfunctions). But the person who relies on themselves and not the gun, will be able to handle a threat if their firearm doesn't function, is not available, is taken away, etc...

Absolutely! I may collect guns and admire them as object of art at home, but when I carry one, it is nothing more than an insurance policy against (for most civilians) an exceedingly rare encounter.

How much insurance do you have on your car? Really?! That's it?!! Good heavens... what if your Toyota Tercel sideswipes a Lamborghini Murcielago? Or cause a bus full of school kids to swerve off a bridge? Or run 90mph into a substation and knock out power to half the city?

I doubt any of us carry a $500 million policy on our cars. Why? Because we are betting on us NOT needing it. PLUS we know we possess other means to avoid needing it. Like trying to drive safely... especially around school buses and Lamborghinis.

The firearm I carry is a "major medical" insurance policy of last resort. I carry enough to stop the most likely threat - an enccounter with a lone assailant. And I exercise every other means possible to avoid meeting Mr. Assailant and having to file a claim on him.

Mike OTDP
February 17, 2010, 04:34 PM
I ran a poll on this sort of thing about six months ago. It's at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=473083

Short form: About one-third of respondents carried ~8 rounds (basically, the loaded gun without a reload). Another third carried ~15 rounds (a loaded wondernine without a reload, or a 1911/revolver and 1 reload). The rest were spread out.

The issue is, how much ammo are you willing to lug around? Especially for CCW? Wearing a gun and 3 15-round mags on your belt may sound macho, but it's a lot of weight and bulk. Hard to conceal.

easyg
February 17, 2010, 04:51 PM
I'm perfectly content to carry a 5-shot snubbie....and I don't even carry a reload. :eek:

But sometimes I find it a little more psychologically comforting to carry my Glock 27 with its 10 rounds. ;)
Still no reload though.

Vonderek
February 17, 2010, 05:51 PM
It all depends on how paranoid a person is.
I totally disagree. It depends on the individual. Work circumstances. Where one lives, etc. If you live or work in a crime-infested part of town with lots of gang activity you probably wish you had a Glock 17 instead of that 442 you had when you lived in a nicer part of town. The 442 may be perfect if you work from a home office. A pawn shop owner probably has a different need than an accountant. And so on.

And sometimes things are beyond our control. If a Reginald Denny had a hi-cap Glock in his cab or even a 1911 with a couple spare mags instead of just his truck-driving skills, he may have ended up making it out unscathed instead of having his brains scrambled.

Volfy
February 17, 2010, 06:23 PM
I totally disagree. It depends on the individual. Work circumstances. Where one lives, etc. If you live or work in a crime-infested part of town with lots of gang activity you probably wish you had a Glock 17 instead of that 442 you had when you lived in a nicer part of town. The 442 may be perfect if you work from a home office. A pawn shop owner probably has a different need than an accountant. And so on.

And sometimes things are beyond our control. If a Reginald Denny had a hi-cap Glock in his cab or even a 1911 with a couple spare mags instead of just his truck-driving skills, he may have ended up making it out unscathed instead of having his brains scrambled.
Even if Mr. Denny was well-armed, who's to say the gang bangers aren't? So he picks out a few of the attackers, then gets a rock thrown at him on the head. He might still end up lying on the street in the end.

The better approach for Mr. Denny would have been better situational awareness. Instead of packing a truck full of firepower, may be a little CB radio or police scanner would have been enough to keep him from ever having to find out how he would've faired against an angry mob - one way or another.

Yes I agree, it's individual risk management.

Most of us are far far more likely to get involved in a car wreck than an actual gun fight, yet... show of hands here... how many are packing 30+rds in their cars and minimum liability on your auto insurance?

Besides, do you really want to be spraying all them bullets in a gun fight? It is a well-documented fact - both in military and cilivian life - that one tends to spend more ammo if more is available. Every one of those bullets from your gun is going to hit something. Statistically - even for well-trained police personnel - that something is much more likely NOT to be the bad guy.

Girodin
February 17, 2010, 06:43 PM
(Trading out the magazine is the simplest and quickest fix for most malfunctions).

Once you are in a bad situation not really. It is the simplest and quickest fix for two very specific stoppages.

1) a double feed. You lock the slide, strip the mag, clear, reinsert a mag and chamber a round.

2) you fire to slide lock and your stoppage is cause by a lack of ammo.

Think about what the other types of malfunctions are. I'm not swapping mags for them.

I have to laugh at those that declare what is a sufficient amount of rounds for a non leo/military situation. As if there is some universal rule that applies to all situations. The fact is it depends. It depends on the situation. One person might go through their life and be fine never even having a round in the gun. Someone else might find themself in a situation in which everything goes wrong.

There is of course a difference between probable and plausible. I cannot tell you how many rounds you'll need. Nor can anyone else. There is no way to know. We might look at averages but what if your situation is not average? In sum you need to decide how many rounds you personally feel comfortable with.

I personally would carry at least one reload and them I would spend my time worrying about being able to run my gun well and be combat effective than whether I had the perfect number of rounds or trite caliber concerns.

NMGonzo
February 17, 2010, 07:20 PM
But truly, as non LEO's, how many shots are actually exchanged/fired by civilians? How much ammo do you need to carry?

Well, that depends. With a lone attacker, maybe you'll need just one shot. Maybe even being accosted by a group of gang members, still just one shot. The others might simply run for their lives.

... or rush you and hopefully you have combat sights on your gun!

S&Wfan
February 17, 2010, 08:27 PM
As a handgun deer hunter/handgun competitor I've learned it isn't how many shots to take to get the job done . . . but that every shot matters, quickly.

Rare indeed is a second shot needed in the woods.

On the range? I won a special "steel challenge" match once at a tactical meet. The winner got the pot . . . and about 35 competitors chose to sign up for this "money match." The rules did NOT favor the revolver in this special match . . . so I decided to kick their tails with a revolver, just for fun AND for the challenge. After all, if I didn't pull it off, no one would be surprised. On the other hand, if I WON . . . I'd have plenty of good natured fun messing with the guys! Works either way!:D

The match:
1. Fastest time dropping EIGHTEEN steel plates and poppers, at distances of 10-40 yards, spread over a 90 degree arc wins the money.

2. Guns start UNLOADED, and in a pistol case.

3. ONE manditory reload, even if you choose to use a Glock 9mm with 33 round magazines designed for the Glock M18 machine pistols, to make it "fair."

4. ANY centerfire, iron-sighted handgun allowed.

You should have heard 'em howl when I came to the line with my chopped barrel, Model 25-2 revolver in .45ACP . . . along with a few loaded moon clips.

"How are you gonna win starting with an empty revolver, knowing you have to load THREE times IF you don't miss even once," someone asked.

"Well," I replied amused, "I'll have to take my time in a hurry!" I added that it would be embarrassing to get beat by a revolver! That made a lot of 'em lose (mentally) at that point. Under the stress they caved.

THE OTHER GUNS . . .

Everyone else except two people used trusty, competition-honed 1911 .45 Autos (with 10-round extended single stack magazines of course, or high cap. 1911 style autos and 13-14 round double stack mags . . . except for a couple of fellows who decided to pull out their Glock 17s and use the 33 round G18 magazines. One Glock shooter brought five magazines to the line . . . "just in case."

I waxed 'em all. I can reload my moon clipped Smith revolver as fast as I can my 1911s, and I've always done my best fast competition shooting with my S&W revolvers firing them double action.

Second place dropped his last plate over two seconds slower, using a single stack Colt 1911 and 10 round McCormack magazines.

DEAD LAST PLACE, with a DNF (Did Not Finish) was the guy with the five 33-round magazines. Under stress and trying to go too fast, he ejaculated over 150 rounds and still had a plate or two standing. Next to last place was the other Glock shooter. Both thought they could spray and pray their way to victory . . . and they learned otherwise.

In the field, in competition and on the streets, shot placement is everything when the chips are down.

WHAT DO I CARRY AS MY "ALWAYS" CCW GUN?

A five shot S&W Airweight J-frame revolver. Like I said, I do my very best shooting with my Smith revolvers. After so many years of practice, they point and shoot as an extension of my body. It is the blued one on bottom in this photo, with the big N-frame "snubbie" 25-2 I used that day on the field on top:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/282194/2328602IMG0125e.JPG

jad0110
February 17, 2010, 10:02 PM
I'm in the same boat as S&Wfan, but less skilled :o .

This is an easy one for me: just carry a reliable weapon you shoot best and gives you the most confidence. Confidence is important; if you excude it with your body language, then there is at least a better chance that the thug(s) will simply wait for an oblivious / nervous one.

DA wheelgun and 1911s work best for me. As always, YMMV.

Warhawk83
February 18, 2010, 11:31 AM
I carry a 9+1 Glock 27.

No extra mags.

Most shootings involve 1-3 shots, I figure 10 should be good enough.

BUT

I don't go through bad neighborhoods very often, never walk in town,etc. In the car I have the LCP as a BUG.

Paints
February 18, 2010, 02:15 PM
I don't know. The more you guys push the need for multiple magazines because of fear of autoloader jams, the more I think I should put my 1911 in the safe and stick with my revolver (only half joking).

If a Reginald Denny had a hi-cap Glock in his cab or even a 1911 with a couple spare mags instead of just his truck-driving skills, he may have ended up making it out unscathed instead of having his brains scrambled.

Actually, if he had used his truck driving skills he would have been better off. The goons weren't capable of winning against a Mack truck.

On a different list the other day, an elderly handicapped woman was almost car jacked. She used her wits, started the car and floored it. Other than losing her purse, she came out shook up but otherwise unharmed.

Most of the time, a 9mm is no match for a 460 Hemi. ;-)

shockwave
February 18, 2010, 02:21 PM
Having made it this far through life without having had to shoot anyone, I'm hoping I won't have to fire more than once, but if more shots are needed then whatever is in the gun should be enough. That's just for CCW, for HD, plenty o' ammo.

Vonderek
February 18, 2010, 05:29 PM
Even if Mr. Denny was well-armed, who's to say the gang bangers aren't?
Your reasoning implies that it is pointless to carry a gun at all. After all, if you're being beaten to death and you produce a gun to fend off your attackers, they may end up shooting you. Why escalate the situation by producing a gun? Just take your beating like a man and don't risk being shot back at. Is it better to be killed by hammer blows to the head than risk being shot?

The better approach for Mr. Denny would have been better situational awareness.
Situational awareness is important but sometimes events conspire against you beyond your control. Lady Luck can be a tramp sometimes. You don't know what's around the corner as you walk your date to the movie theater or you return to your car in the parking lot late at night. Or as in the early stages of the L.A. riots you drive into a traffic jam and moments later are pulled from your car. There was no warning..I doubt Mr. Denny in this example would have gotten warning on his CB and been able to turn his rig around ("Give me 40 acres....").

No one has total situational awareness...even if one is walking his/her date to the movies I doubt any of us here would have our date's hand in one hand and a police scanner in the other. Again, you seem to imply that a handgun for self defense is unnecessary if one can practice an almost telepathic state of situational awareness.

Post-Hurricane Andrew there was absolutely NO communications for us at ground zero. Society in that area was broken down. Thieves and other miscreants had their way and if you were not prepared you were a sheep waiting for slaughter.

Most of us are far far more likely to get involved in a car wreck than an actual gun fight, yet... show of hands here... how many are packing 30+rds in their cars and minimum liability on your auto insurance?
While I kind of understand the point you are trying to make here it is an apples-to-oranges comparison. We carry guns and drive cars for totally different reasons. We have auto insurance in the event of an accident. Almost without exception people drive their cars to transport themselves from point A to point B, not to ram their vehicle with criminal intent into someone else's vehicle. We carry guns not to prevent accidents but protect ourselves from others who may try to do us intentional harm. If and when vehicular assault becomes epidemic and commonplace, I'm sure drivers would purchase additional insurance.

Besides, do you really want to be spraying all them bullets in a gun fight?
Yes, if necessary. As mentioned by someone earlier, I've never heard anyone who used a gun in harm's way complain of having too much ammunition.

If you re-read my post earlier, my assertion is that every individual has unique circumstances that should dictate what type of handgun and how much ammo he/she should carry. Variables such as profession, living circumstances, routes to and from work, geography, etc. all factor in.

Vonderek
February 18, 2010, 05:33 PM
Actually, if he had used his truck driving skills he would have been better off. The goons weren't capable of winning against a Mack truck.
While I agree with your general point, there was no place to floor it to. He was in the midst of traffic jam and the streets were not only filled with the criminals but also the general population as well. We don't know who was in Mr. Denny's path. There may have also been kids and curious onlookers. If so, he may have killed innocent people in an effort to escape.

smoothdraw
February 18, 2010, 05:38 PM
I will always have 1 extra magazine at minimum even just 7 round mags for my 1911 is okay. Don't have to be 8 rounder. The extra magazine is insurance in case the you had malfunction with your other magazine. My standard carry is 2 extra magazine and a 200 lumens tactical light and tactical knife.

Glock Holiday
February 18, 2010, 07:21 PM
Most times I carry my LCR with either two speed strips or two speed loaders.
That makes for 15 rounds. In the summer if I carry my LCP I carry one spare mag for a total of 12 rounds.

trickyasafox
February 18, 2010, 07:52 PM
i usually carry one spare mag- but as this came up in a few posts, I'll weigh in on lights.

I would trade a spare mag for a flashlight any day. I use my flashlight constantly- and would much rather go without spare ammo than the light.

I usually carry a LW commander- so i'm talking 16 rounds with my spare. sometimes a jframe with 6 spare rounds in a dump pouch.

Brian040
February 19, 2010, 01:47 AM
I carry a Ruger SP101. 5 rounds of .357 works for me. I don't loose any sleep over it, which is what is important. Carry whatever works for you.

Ben86
February 19, 2010, 08:37 AM
I believe the average is somewhere around three shots for defensive gun usage. With this in mind I have almost exclusively switched to slim single stack guns for concealed carry (much more comfortable). I carry and extra mag and don't feel under-guned at all, unless I was trying to free some hostages from a group of bad guys, or something way out there.

gordy
February 19, 2010, 12:48 PM
If I carry my 9mm(sig225) I carry one extra mag. 17 shots total, I feel very well armed. If I carry my 642 I have a speedstrip in my pocket. 10 shots. I know lots of guys that have the wonder nines and 2 or 3 extra mags. I have always wondered(never asked) if the have there wifes carry a box of ammo in there purse? I have enough confidence in my shooting ability to feel a need for only one reload. Some guys who carry 45's only carry one extra mag. they have confidence in there choice to be happy with one reload.
I don't feel a need to carry 50 rounds or more to be protected. I asked a LEO buddy of mine if he felt like he needed 3 extra mags for his glock, He told me, Unlike you I have to put my self in a place were I may need lots of shots.
But it is unlikly that I will ever have to need that many, but I have them!
But he also has a AR in the trunk and a 870 on the dash. Plus a radio to call the calvery. I don't like all the extra's on my belt or in my pockets.
And thats just me.

NMGonzo
February 19, 2010, 12:53 PM
Same ... 17 shots here of .45

I had 16 shots of .40 and no reload on the Glock.

Volfy
February 19, 2010, 12:55 PM
Your reasoning implies that it is pointless to carry a gun at all. After all, if you're being beaten to death and you produce a gun to fend off your attackers, they may end up shooting you. Why escalate the situation by producing a gun? Just take your beating like a man and don't risk being shot back at. Is it better to be killed by hammer blows to the head than risk being shot?
That is quite a stretch for you to have come up with that implication. Do you really think anybody would come to a gun forum with that mindset? Point is, no one should feel safe and go blazing into any situation just because he's got a truck full of firepower.

We all have choices - even if some folks convince themselves they don't.

Every person is responsible for his/her own risk management. If you decide yours is best managed by wearing 6 lbs of hollow points all day long, then by all means... there is no law against that. It's easy to feel 8ft-tall full-of-muscle packing that much heat, but being over-confident will allow youself to walk into trouble, which you would otherwise wisely avoid.

Conceal carry of firearms is but one tool for personal risk management. Don't make it your ONLY tool.

Post-Hurricane Andrew there was absolutely NO communications for us at ground zero. Society in that area was broken down. Thieves and other miscreants had their way and if you were not prepared you were a sheep waiting for slaughter.

No different than post-Hurricane Ike. 99+% of Houston had no electricity. Plenty of folks were out trying to get ice, gas, and food - bitching & moaning on TV about their dire situation. I had my generator up and running within 2hours of black out (at 3am) - running my two refrigerators, a room A/C, lights around the house, and my home threater. We were watching the new and bluray movies in HD and eating icescream the next morning.

Preparation is key.

No reason for me to leave home and expose myself to danger. And at home... I got ammo.:cool:

Vern Humphrey
February 19, 2010, 02:22 PM
I carry a spare magazine because, why not?

As Jeff Cooper used to say, "There is such thing as enough ammunition. And there is such a thing as not enough ammunition. There is no such thing as too much ammunition."

Vonderek
February 19, 2010, 04:13 PM
If you decide yours is best managed by wearing 6 lbs of hollow points all day long, then by all means... there is no law against that. It's easy to feel 8ft-tall full-of-muscle packing that much heat, but being over-confident will allow youself to walk into trouble, which you would otherwise wisely avoid.
Whose stretching now Volfy?

We're not getting anywhere because you obviously are not reading my posts thoroughly and it's pointless to talk in circles. If a person working or living or traveling through a high risk environment (and not having the luxury of sitting home eating ice cream) sees fit to carry a high cap handgun and maybe a spare magazine, it's silly to disparage that person for his choice in preparing for what may come. You see to be judging others according to your own bias while having zero knowledge of others personal circumstances which are probably different from yours.

No different than post-Hurricane Ike.
Sorry bro, you weren't there. It sounds like you were just without electricity and not in a neighborhood with pancaked homes with no roofs and wandering gangs stealing cars and whatever else they felt like. Again, you are making an argument from a personal bias taking no consideration that others circumstances are different from yours.

Volfy
February 19, 2010, 07:00 PM
Vonderek, I believe we both agree on fundamental #1:

One should carry firearm + ammo appropriate for the circumstances.

Where we do differ, though is whether fundamental #2 is true:

The circumstances in which we find ourselves is within our individual control.

You don't seems to believe this is true. I do.

The fact that I faired better in a Hurricane than the next person isn't entirely God's Will or pure happenstance. It is largely the outcome of decisions a person makes - both long term and short term.

We all believe that we should hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I happen to believe too, that the better we are prepared, the less we have to worry about the worst.

orionengnr
February 19, 2010, 08:56 PM
Post #20, Lone Haranguer:
I had read each of those before, but I went back and read both again. Thank you for posting those links.

One thing I note was that The Marine shot to slide lock, had difficulty retreiving his spare mag, and said afterward that he had totally forgotten that he was carrrying a BUG. I think there is a lesson in there somewhere...or maybe I am just validating my own chioce to forego a BUG. :)

Anyway, great read, and great discussion.

Patriotme
February 20, 2010, 06:26 AM
When you reach the point that you are carrying so much ammo that you have a hard time concealing it, it weighs so much that you dread leaving the house and you stop carrying then you have too much. Depending on the climate and your clothing it can be hard enough just carrying a handgun without a ton of extra ammo.

mcschrader
February 20, 2010, 09:29 AM
I carry 31 rounds on me. If I am in a bad situation, I have 31 rounds that say that I can get out of it. Thats just my opinion.

luigi
February 20, 2010, 09:38 AM
When you rely on yourself instead of the gun, you'll realize that a 5-6 shot revolver or a 7 round semi-auto is more than enough for any non-LEO/military usage.

Of course they both carry at least two reloads

FWIW I carry 1 spare magazine

MCgunner
February 20, 2010, 09:43 AM
In my case, one round stopped an attacking dog, a round of 9x19. I carry revolvers a lot. For convenience, I carry two speed strips anymore. Speedloaders are a pain to carry in a pocket and I've got enough crap on my belt. I always have some sort of back up, too. I don't worry about enough ammo.

christcorp
February 20, 2010, 12:51 PM
The rational some people have of such a discussion can be quite interesting. If not, down right funny. I figured i'd ask a few people I work with how much they believe they should carry. Mind you, the vast majority of people where I live have a much different opinion of guns. However, as with ALL discussions, I knew it would evolve into something else. And here's the evolution.

Positions:
1. Carry whatever the gun has in it. e.g. revolver 5-6 and semi whatever.
2. Carry whatever the gun has, plus 1 additional speed load or magazine.
3. One group saying; well, if you're going to have that revolver, 1911 with 7 rounds, or other <10 round pistol, plus an additional magazine; why not just have a 15+ round type of pistol, and not worry about the 2nd magazine.
4. Response is: Why then not just have a 15+ round pistol with another magazine as backup; now you have 30 rounds.

When the dust settled in the discussion, the consensus was. (And this is among about 7 people who have also lived in large cities, military service, etc...). In other words, not just some rural hicks with no understanding of the "REAL WORLD" that some people think most of wyoming, montana, idaho, etc... are.

1. Whatever the gun comes with, is more than enough. (Because the gun is the LAST means of defense).
2. A 2nd magazine is totally legitimate in case there is a mechanical problem with the first magazine. HOWEVER: Everyone agreed that if you got the 1st round off, which chances are you would, and had a jam, feed, etc... issue; A) Bad guy probably left running or is dead from the 1st shot or B) You'd probably try automatically racking the slide to clear the stovepipe, jam, etc... before dropping the mag and reaching for another magazine. and C) If you DID have to reach for a 2nd magazine, because of all the problems with the first one; then you're probably in a lot of trouble, because the bad guy is going to be on your a$$. You're not going to have that kind of time.

So basically, the only reason we could think of a 2nd magazine was if the 1st one had issues. But if the 1st one had issues, then you're screwed with trying to re-rack and fix the original one, or deciding to drop it and reach for another mag. So, a revolver is the better choice. Chances of not being able to shoot most/all round in the cylinder is slim to none. But everyone agreed, not that our opinion matters, that an additional magazine isn't needed for the extra rounds. Just for mechanical backup. Additional rounds, meaning more than the original gun capacity, is for the zombie killers, paranoid, and those who don't know reality. So it's not a matter of how many rounds. That's whatever is in the gun you carry. If you like the gun that feels and shoots good, and it happens to have 15+ rounds, that's good. And if you want a backup magazine because the first might fail; that's understandable. But I and many others really doubt that you're going to every get to use that 2nd one if there's a malfunction. You're first instinct after having a malfunction with a magazine fed pistol is not to drop the magazine. It's to try and clear the malfunction by racking it again. I doubt you'll ever get to the 2nd magazine. But apparently, there are some that think they could actually have a need for more than the amount of bullets that the gun original holds. No response for them. They think they could get into a gang shootout or a gun fight, or that hollywood movies is real life. No changing their understanding of reality.

luigi
February 20, 2010, 09:53 PM
How many of your buddies have ever been in a real fight?

w_houle
February 20, 2010, 10:20 PM
Is all that ammo necessary?
Absolutely! Now, what's the question...
Ahh, I would say it's however much you feel comfortable carrying. I like carrying a spare magazine, but that's due to having a spare magazine holder on my holster and feel weird if it's empty. Now my revolver belt has a space for two speedloaders, so that's what I carry.

christcorp
February 21, 2010, 12:37 AM
How many of your buddies have ever been in a real fight?
Probably as many as yours. Of the 7, 3 were military and we all spent numerous times in the desert, central america, and other places. But as far as: "Which one of you have had an armed crime against you?" I didn't ask that question. I wouldn't ask: "..... a REAL FIGHT". because this isn't hollywood.

luigi
February 21, 2010, 01:44 AM
So, bottom line your right we're wrong. got it

christcorp
February 21, 2010, 04:11 AM
No, the bottom line is that mine/our opinion is just as significant as yours is. And don't say "YOUR" as in ME singular, and "WE'RE" as in EVERYONE ELSE. If you read the thread, you'll find probably just as many people who don't carry any extra magazines as you will those who do carry an extra magazine.

But if you feel that you need to have more rounds than the gun holds, have at it. You can carry 4 extra magazines and 2 boxes of ammo in your pocket for all I care. Some people just don't think it's very practical. But if you do, then by all means have at it. Sorry, but it seems that you're actually "Offended" because some people see the threat potential differently than you do.

shockwave
February 21, 2010, 07:41 AM
So I'm walking down the street, and, about 100 feet away I see a goblin, who points at me and yells, "You dead, suckah!" and he draws on me.

As there was a handy 55-gal steel drum next to me, I took cover, in one smooth move crouching down behind it and drawing my Glock. I prairie-dogged and saw the perp angling his way toward me, weaving among the parked cars to the left. So I opened fire, letting him have 17 from the 17 with a two-handed grip. Glockie was directing traffic and I was just along for the ride.

When the smoke cleared, it was a surprise to see the goblin still drawing closer (although I did take out quite a bit of automotive glass and car alarms up and down the street were raising quite a racket). He started spraying in my direction - sounded like a .40 but you can never be sure. This was a prudent moment to reload from cover, and thankfully, I had 2 spare magazines at hand...

</fantasy> I guess that could happen, but I bet you're just gonna have to dance with the girl you brought to the party.

Ben86
February 21, 2010, 10:02 AM
I prairie-dogged and saw the perp angling his way toward me

LOL! If only you could have relieved yourself at the nearest restroom beforehand.

Patrice
February 21, 2010, 12:21 PM
.....

420Stainless
February 21, 2010, 12:32 PM
I don't carry extra reloads as a personal choice, but I certainly won't ridicule one who does. The situation Reginald Denny (LA riot victim) was in could happen in a lot of places.

golden
February 21, 2010, 05:13 PM
I carry several different guns. It depends on the circumstances.

If I am working, it is the agency gun. I don't have a choice and I do not have to conceal it.

If I am off duty, I want my own gun. I use a BERETTA 9m.m. or .40 S&W as my house gun because I shoot these guns a lot and know them well. THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT. YOU MUST KNOW THE GUN AND PRACTICE WITH IT.

The BERETTA 92/96 is hard to conceal most of the time in Florida, so I use something else. A BERETTA Tomcat .32ACP or 5 shot .38 Special in a pocket holster with at least 1 reload.

I also usually have my care near by with 9m.m. or .40 S&W in the trunk, so the pocket pistol is acceptable.

During the cold weather like now, I can wear something heavier like a compact 9m.m.
I like to go for walks in the evening and will carry a S&W model 12 with a 2 inch barrel because it is so light (18 ounces). I carry 2 reloads for that gun.

My formula for a carry gun is:

1. Reliable, if not, don't use it for carry.

2. Controllable, I have to be able to hit the target. I had a KAHR CW-9 and found it recoiled hard for me. That limited my practice with it. So I sold it. It is a good gun, just not for me.

3. It must fit the situation, my BERETTA 84 is a really good .380ACP, but too big for most concealment situations, so I carry the Tomcat or revolver.

4. Most power for the situation. .22 rimfire and .25ACP are out. I consider the .32ACP with hollowpoint ammo the minimum and just barely.

5. Practice, practice and more practice. Don't forget training, it can be a life saver.

Just my opinions.

Jim

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
February 21, 2010, 06:32 PM
better to have something then nothing like i found out first hand.

at the time i only had my Rossi .357mag snubbie, and i felt safer with it when a corrections officer lost it and pulled a 1911 on my family and myself.

i still carry that rossi with one spare speed strip.

but then i also carry a S&W Sigma .40 14+1 annd a spare mag at other times. ether way i feel safe having something.

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