[Black Snowman]

Would anyone buy a gun in this theoretical cartridge? A .50 AE cut down and loadings reduced to produce a big but slow bullet capable of being fired from a autoloader slightly larger than a 1911 or a revolver.

I know lots of people like big slower bullets and this pretty much takes it to the maximum legal limit in the USA. Does such a round already exisit? Has anyone wildcatted (is that a word?) one? Will it be a JDJ Whisper pistol cartridge ;)

Just curious.

[Kamicosmos]

Well, it's not in an Auto yet, but the .480 Ruger is kinda what you're thinking of. It's basically a .475 Linebaugh Special.
It's not the 'Big Five Oh', but ballistically....that's pretty much what you're describing.

[Nightcrawler]

I think .480 Ruger is probably above and beyond what you'd want to stick in a regular 1911 frame, if it'd even fit.

What he's thinking of would probably better be described as a .50ACP. Say, a 300 grain slug at 850 feet per second?

[clubsoda22]

all i want is a S&W .500 magnum snubbie. It combines the best aspects of both the handgun and the flamethrower.

[Standing Wolf]

all i want is a S&W .500 magnum snubbie.

Two-inch, or the long two and a half?

[Black Snowman]

Actually I was thinking more like a 1911 scaled up 12% (the differance in caliber). Standard would be a 5.5" barrel with a heavier slide to dampen the recoil energies, etc. . . Single stack. Grip would be longer front to back but that might be trimmed down by elminating the grip safety like on the AMT AutoMag V (IIRC).

Say for case dementions:
Max Case Length .960
Trim to length .950
COL 1.30

Just big enough so some manufacturer doesn't try to slap it on a standard 1911 chassis and give it a bad reliability rep.

Edit: I guess I should have called it a .50 Lite or something. Special sorta implys revolver which you could still use it in but as mentioned, the .480 Ruger fills that nitche.

[Chuck Perry]

I have been waiting for this cartridge for years. Can't believe someone hasn't done it yet. There was a poster on The Firing Line named Monte that was trying to get one going. Don't know what happened to him or the cartridge/pistol. I don't know that it would be an improvment over anything, but it would be cool.

[max popenker]

IIRC, the LAR "Grizzly" pistol, which was a scaled-up copy of M1911, was available in .50AE, and i see no trouble using in it a down-loaded ammo. maybe you'll need a weaker spring, but recoil obviously will be more comfortable.

But, that gun weighted about 3lbs... can you imagine CCW with this? maybe in backpack holster, ninja-style? :cool:

[George Hill]

.500 S&W Magnum Snub.

2-1/2 to 3 inches for me. Non-Ported. Wood grips. I'll take 2 of them, Thanks. Oh, and a dual shoulder rig... and some speed loaders.

[caz223]

The .50 special, that's even less common than the .41 special, but has definately been done before...

[Black Snowman]

Ya, the Grizzly and Automag V are huge guns. I was thinking something more along the lines of G20/21 size to make it possible to CCW and a more comfortably sized grip. Makes more sense to me than the .45 GAP at least as it actually fills a nitche for people who like their rounds big and want an auto. Plus it would be short enough to put in a revolver that normally wouldn't hold or handle a .50 AE or Linebaugh (sp?).

[Alvin Hammer]

50 Special is the name of a revolver cartridge promoted by the great wheel-gun smith, Hamilton Bowen.

[Blueduck]

While in theory I kinda like the idea, I'm wondering if it would really work out all that well. Problems that jump out at me are:

*Double stack 45's sell (but a lot of people complain they are either too thick or at least on the verge of being too thick). A 50 would likely push that entire market over the edge...

*The recoil of 45 acp is often considered "just right" for active interested shooters but too much for newbies or folks not that interested in guns. Might be too slow for hunting, and too much for selfdefense or games.

*A key popularity feature of the 45's in 1911 is the slim grip. 12% larger doesn't sound like much till you get it in your hand.

* It's new. Good in clothes, dish detergents and pop stars, bad in the conservitive gun culture and police procurement environment ;)

[Black Snowman]

I never figured it could achieve massive sales but thought it would be an interesting wildcat project and makes a lot more sense to me than some of the other cartridges coming out.

The reason I expect it to be done, and perhapse soon, is with the .500 Linebaugh, .50 AE, and .500 S&W there is starting to actually be a SELECTION of .50 bullets although I'd design the cartridge around the Speer 325 gr GDHP. Plus it's the maximum legal limit for a handgun caliber and we Americans like to say we've got the biggest of something ;)

It would make a powerful package that could be put into a gun the size of the HK .45 and I think that could appeal to enough people to put into limited production. Hell they made the Mateba Unica 6 and I can't say that was as good of an idea :D

[Missouri Mule]

What is the .50 AE?

[Nightcrawler]

.50AE: .50 Action Express, as seen in the Desert Eagle .50.

[Joe Demko]

all i want is a S&W .500 magnum snubbie

Get that with bird's head grips (prolly have to go custom) and you'd really be styling.

[cordex]

A long time ago, I handled a cartridge similar to what you've described. The guy who had it said that it was for a custom handgun that a gunsmith friend of his had worked on, but I don't know what the gun's design was based on or where the owner got the components. It reminded me of a .50 caliber version of the .45 ACP.

[timbo]

I know I'm sorta diverting from the topic, but...

If Glock would have thought of making a .500 GAP instead of the .45, they could have made some cash. There has to be a better market for that than another .45 round. Hell I might even go out and pick one up if that happened, just for the novelty. Then again if a .50 special came out for the S&W magnum, I'd even consider getting one of them. Maybe when I start reloading...

[Black Snowman]

Actually timbo it's not divirting at all. I mentioned that very thing when the .45 GAP came out in it's "debut" thread. There's a bigger European market for the .45 GAP since there are coutries that can't have military calibers so I'm guessing that's why they went ahead with it.

But .50 auto in a package more manageble than a Desert Eagle I think has market potential in the USA and I was trying to get a feel for that here. If it were based on the .50 AE it could be used in the existing .50 AE revolvers.

Why I'm trying to get a feel for that I don't know. I don't have a business plan or anything to put one into production. I was thinking of basing a gun on the 1911 design largely because of the threads about the new SIG 1911 pattern guns where many were complaining that if you're going to copy it come up with something new.

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

When I first got online and discovered this gun forum thing, asking about a .50 ACP was the second post I put up. The concept gets renewed every so often, with mixed reviews. While I agree with all of your reasoning, Snowman, most people seem to regard it as just too much, which makes little sense to me. I would think that a 300-ish grain bullet loafing along at 800 or so FPS would be the greatest thing since sliced bread, and double-stack 1911 mags and frames would easily lend themselves to accomodating the extra width.

Alas, I would think the underwhelming positive resonse to the idea indicates commercial non-viability.

However, over on TFL there was a guy by the handle of Alaska Roy who was building up a custom project based on a Glock 20 and shortened .50 AE brass. At last posting, he'd just ordered barrels from Bar-Sto, but he never came back to tell us about how the project finished up.

Additionally, I have read about a similar project being worked out in a gunrag, but I can't remember what the platform was. I do remember it was going to use cut-down .284 Win cases.


There was a blurb about the SHOT show a couple years back where-in someone was debuting a .50-caliber round in a 1911 platform, but it was a magnum-class round with 260+ grain bullets moving out at some 1250 FPS, which is too hot for SD. .50 P-something, it was called. Padua? Palau? Something similar to that. Haven't heard a peep about it since.

I need a couple of machine tools. I don't feel like paying mucho cash to a 'smith to create one of these for me, I'd rather build it myself. Just as soon as I win the lottery, promise!

[SnWnMe]

Smith can probably fit 5 .50 chambers into an N frame cylinder. They just need to make a low pressure wildcat round.

That would be a BG's worst nightmare. Staring down the gaping maw of a 50 caliber snubnosed revo to see the hollowpoints staring back at him.

300 grains, 800 to 850 fps? Sounds good to me!

[Tamara]

.500 S&W Magnum Snub.

2-1/2 to 3 inches for me. Non-Ported.

I know you're a stud and all, but I'd pay $50 to be allowed to measure your splits with a 2 3/4" non-ported/non-comped X-frame using factory Cor-Bon 440g .500 loads. Heck, I'll even help get the hammer spurs out of your forehead between shots with a claw hammer. ;) (I'm guessing splits of between five and ten minutes, depending on how long it takes the doc to set and splint your thumbs between shots. ;) :D )

[George Hill]

pssst... Tams... I never said I'd actually FIRE it! Then again... you could download it to cowboy level... why are cowboy loads such wimpy loads anyways? Those guys in big hats limp in the wrists or what?

[Walosi]

Hamilton Bowen makes (or made) five-shot Rugers (Redhawk and Blackhawk) in his own .50 Special, a "big mildcat" made with cut down 350 Rem. cases. RCBS even made a run of dies when he brought it out. Kind of an "obsessives joy" what with the case cutting, trimming, annealing, etc., but his reason for putting it out was. "Because it's so darn much fun to shoot". I had the pleasure of firing ten rounds through a 5" Redhawk in .50 Special, with a 320 gr. slug - about 850 fps according to the owner. We were shooting an old acetylene cylinder, bottom cut out, hung by a chain, at 100 yds. Elevation was no problem (about 5' long) and it rang like a temple gong with every shot. It also moved about 6" with every hit. Recoil was like the push of a .45 Colt, but stronger. I used my allotted 10 rounds on the gong, and the owner then set out a basket full of coffee cans on the ground below the gong, and started showing off. Not any shred of a doubt about his hits, and he only had a couple of misses. I didn't have the where-with-all for a gun like that at the time (and still don't) but Bowens' reason for making it is good enough for buying one - it IS one helluva fun gun.

[Daniel Watters]

H_R_G: Robert Pauza was responsible for the short .50 of your memory. (Pauza is better known for his .50 BMG P50 semi-auto rifle.) During the 2000 SHOT Show, Pauza's products and projects were attached to High Standard/Firearms International. According to the blurbs that I saw, the short .50 supposedly launched a 300gr projectile at 1,250fps. The pictures of the cartridge show it to be longer overall than the .45 ACP, probably running somewhere around 1.4" to 1.5". The P51 pistol also appeared to be fairly chunky, at least in terms of the size of the slide.

For a milder .50 ACP, the frame, slide and barrel should not have to be that much wider. However, a .475 ACP based on a shortened .284 Winchester case would be even easier on a standard frame and slide. The mag well would need to be opened up, and a new mag and barrel would be necessary. However, the rebated rim of the .284 case (or a shortened .475 Wildey) should work in a standard .45 ACP breachface.

BTW: A wider mag well in a standard-size M1911 frame has precedence. During the First World War, Colt made a number of M1911s for the Royal Navy chambered for the .455 Webley SL cartridge. This cartridge had a semi-rim measuring ~.500". In order to accomodate the wider rim, the contract pistols possessed correspondingly wider magazines, mag wells, and breachfaces.

(Coincidentally, the .284 Win/.475 Wildey case has a body diameter of ~.500".)

For either conversion, most of the widebody frame .45s would serve as an ideal testbed since most of the magwell is already wide enough. Even the "widebody-single-stacks" like the EAA Witness, CZ97, Ruger P90/97, and the Beretta Cougar 8045 might also make good candidates for these conversions. (Note: While the 8045 uses a fat magazine, the ribs on each side of the mag tube constrict it nearly to a single stack profile.)

[Dr.Rob]

Why not?

50 AE cut down to 50ACP... a short fat case, launching a 300 gr pill at 850 fps?

Maybe on an officer's frame...the ultimate short fat auto loader. (Well unless Glock made one, then it could be short fat and ugly too)

Kind of pistol you want to hunt down repilcants and such.

I know you can get a 460 Rowland upper, but its not the same.

What I'd really like is a 750 bmg bullet moving at 800fps.. in a revolver. (Which makes about as much sense as a "tround").

Tamara... have a friend that fired a 45/70 "Alaska" derringer.. his wrist was in a brace for months, didn't have to pry the hammer from his forhead.