Demonstration.........Waukesha,WI...............Sunday Feb.21st


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faustopph
February 16, 2010, 05:21 PM
Meet at Starbucks... N65W24950 Main st.,Sussex,WI....12:30pm ..Sharp
go to State Patrol Headquarters 21115 East Moreland Boulevard,Waukesha,WI..1:00pm


for more info go to OpenCarry.org

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parker51
February 16, 2010, 05:37 PM
I went to www.ocdo.org and got a page that says the web site is for sale.

rswartsell
February 16, 2010, 06:19 PM
Could you be specific about the message the demonstration is supposed to carry? Are you specifically calling for Wisconsin residents?

paramedic70002
February 17, 2010, 01:02 PM
Try http://www.opencarry.org/

MisterMike
February 17, 2010, 01:42 PM
Ths is pretty darned confusing. There's no ocdo.org website and it eludes me how demonstrating against a law enforcement agency advances the RKBA agenda. Shouldn't the effort be directed at the state legislature?

Can anyone fill us in on what's going on?

faustopph
February 17, 2010, 02:11 PM
Sorry about that .So used to members just saying OCDO that I messed up.

www.OpenCarry.org

faustopph
February 17, 2010, 02:26 PM
A citizen exercising his right to open carry was confronted by a state trooper at a restaurant that he frequents and was told to leave.Management did not request that he leave or be told to leave.
Later that night ,after 10:00pm 3 county officers came to his home and questioned him about impersonating an officer.They seem to think his car looks like an undercover squad.lol

If you go to www.OpenCarry.org more information is available along with a link to the video of the incident.

This is of importance to all Wisconsin residents and all/anyone who carries a firearm.

rswartsell
February 17, 2010, 02:50 PM
Well, I looked at the website and am no more informed for the effort. I certainly am in sympathy with your cause but I just can't see getting all worked up and marching because a post like this tells me to.

I spent 10 minutes on this site, and didn't get a whiff of the incident you relate. As far as I can tell the guy may have been trying to impersonate a LEO and may be lucky not to be in jail. I sure don't have enough to demonstrate or march on.

Tully M. Pick
February 17, 2010, 03:25 PM
I dug around on the site a bit and found this information:

Youtube video of the incident here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZVz0V-bek0

See back-story here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/38256-1.html

Time and date is set:

Date: Sunday February 21st

Time: 12:30pm

Location: Meet at Starbucks in Sussex
Starbucks
N65W24950 Main Street
Sussex, WI 53089

We will be meeting at Starbucks, try to be there at 12:30 sharp. Once we meet there we will be heading over to the State Patrol Office in Waukesha to demonstrate outside the building. If you don't make the 12:30 meeting time at Starbucks in Sussex plan to catch up with us at the State Patrol headquarters around 1pm 21115 East Moreland Boulevard, Waukesha, WI

Open-Carry strongly encouraged, but not required.

We will all be OC'ing as we always do when we go about or daily business.

Local media will be contacted and present.

After the demonstration outside State Patrol district office, people will be heading to China Wok in Sussex (near Starbucks) for a mid afternoon lunch/meal.

China Wok
N65W24838 Main St.
Sussex, WI 53089

______________________

A Wisconsin Carry member was sitting for lunch at China-Wok in Sussex, WI

A state trooper entered the establishment and demanded/berated the counter staff to know if they allowed guns in the business. The confused staff initially indicated that they did not.

See the troopers behavior here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/38256-1.html

The same state trooper later contacted the Waukesha County Sheriff and suggested that our member was impersonating a police officer because he was open-carrying (completely legal) and driving a Hyundai Elantra that has antennae on it. (when was the last time you saw a Hyundai Elantra used as a police vehicle?)

3 Waukesha County Sheriffs paid a visit to our member at 10:30 at night on Monday in response to the state troopers misplaced complaint.

Please join us in Sunday to say to the State Patrol that their harassment of a law-abiding citizen is not acceptable.

rswartsell
February 17, 2010, 05:02 PM
Sorry guys, I don't see your problem. The officer was reasonably well behaved towards the man, and he freely admitted that if the business allowed guns on premises he would be fine.

I THINK I understand carrying OC and a video camera waiting for a reaction from LEO (they must practice situational awareness, in their position taking no note of them is next to a death wish these days), in that you wish to blaze trails for RKBA. But on the other hand I think you are getting a bit twitchy and actually coming pretty close to seeking confrontation and placing unreasonable demands on the average LEO.

Tell me when the situation actually results in a significant denial of your rights, you get arrested, gun confiscated illegally, etc. and I will stand with you. Keep shouting wolf every time you have a conversation with a cop, trying to alienate them from seeing us as reasonable by marching on their barracks, giving the public at large the idea that we are prone to overreaction and you just might become part of the problem rather than solution.

(Getting flame proof underwear on).

joe_security
February 17, 2010, 06:05 PM
Can out of state people OC in Wisconsin ? Just curious if I can OC if go fishing in Wisconsin. i assume the guns can be loaded, unlike ********** OC.

jak67429
February 17, 2010, 06:18 PM
you can not have an uncased or loaded gun in a boat while it is underway or under power.

MisterMike
February 17, 2010, 07:18 PM
Sorry guys, I don't see your problem. The officer was reasonably well behaved towards the man, and he freely admitted that if the business allowed guns on premises he would be fine.

I'm kind of in the same boat. There may be more to this story, but the initial encounter, as depicted in the video, seemed within reason. Yes, the cop was jumpy, but you need to understand that Wisconsin is new to this whole open carry thing. I'd guess that most LEOs there have not had much training or experience in these situations.

I understand that the guy who was confronted believes he was subsequently harassed by local deputies as the result of this encounter, and that he suspects that the highway patrolman instigated this. Truthfully, that seems weird, but if it is correct the guy has a legitimate beef.

I'd like to hear a better explanation of this incident. Maybe I'm missing something, but the YouTube video does not suggest to me that the cop was acting improperly.

faustopph
February 18, 2010, 12:33 AM
OK.Then what about the fact that the trooper asked if they allowed firearms in the restaurant.He then was told they do not.The trooper at that time was in violation of the same.The trooper was not there on business with the place,so he to would be subject to the policy of the business.
It is advisable to keep a video recorder or at least a voice recorder with you when open carrying.At least until things like this stop happening.Law suits have already been filed for other times that LEO's went past their authority in Wisconsin.

faustopph
February 18, 2010, 12:45 AM
Joe security:

Wisconsin has no law that says you can't, if you can own a handgun in Wisconsin.
Yes.The firearm can be loaded...Know where the school zones are and stay out of municipal buildings.

faustopph
February 18, 2010, 12:52 AM
jak67429

If the boat is drifting it is OK to have firearms uncased and loaded.It can not be under any motor/engine type power.

faustopph
February 18, 2010, 01:01 AM
Mister Mike
How long do you give an LEO before he knows the laws of the jurisdiction he/she has sworn to abide by?

The Wisconsin DA sent out a memorandum months ago to stop this type of situation from happening.But I suppose we should just let them continue to stomp on our rights.

bnhcomputing
February 18, 2010, 02:53 AM
Sorry guys, I don't see your problem. The officer was reasonably well behaved towards the man, and he freely admitted that if the business allowed guns on premises he would be fine.

Here is the problem:

We are pro-rights and as such we stand against coercion, intimidation, prejudice, and discrimination against citizens. Our specific focus, as stated on our site WisconsinCarry.org (http://www.wisconsincarry.org) is firearms rights particularly the ability to open carry firearms for personal protection.

Protias is the gentleman's moniker.

Protias, like many of us, carries a cam or voice recorder for the same reason he/we carry the side arm, personal protection. Some, but not all, of us have had interactions with law enforcement where the LEO involved didn’t want us to exercise our rights and may have violated our rights. Just look at the pending lawsuits in Wisconsin (West Milwaukee, Chilton, Milwaukee, Racine). It is obvious that there are law enforcement officers who do not want us to carry. The problem is, carry is our right, and we cannot tell the good LEO’s from the bad. LEO’s need to accept that carry is our right. The LEO’S who do not want us to exercise our rights are the problem.

Having stated that, let’s examine the situation:

First, regardless if there was one or one hundred LEO at the restaurant Protias was within his rights to carry his firearm, just like any of the rest of us would be. He did NOT carry there to setup or goat anybody, but rather because he carries everywhere he goes, and he has carried there several times in the past without issue.

Second, having viewed the video and having personally dealt with LEO on two occasions, three (3) officers each time, when three (3) officers approach you and ask you a question, the average person will feel intimidated and will answer the question, usually in a manner they think will get the officer(s) to leave them alone.

Third, Protias had carried several times in the business in question and there were no signs. Management had never asked him to leave before, or confronted him about carrying. In addition, management DID NOT CALL the police, they just happened to be there at the same time.

So in comes the officers and the one tells the other ask if they allow guns in here. Then he asks again himself. It's obvious these LEO’s did not want Protias to carry. It is obvious they pressured, intimidated, and coerced the management to state a non-existent anti-gun policy as the management felt obligated to answer the LEO. Once the LEO got the answer he was looking for, he then demands Protias leave. Can anyone cite the state statute that allows LEO to order/remove someone from the premises even though the owner/manager has not requested such action? The LEO never asked the management if (management) wanted him to remove Protias, he simply took it upon himself to demand Protias leave.

As was also pointed out already, one the policy was stated the the LEO's were in violation of the state policy themselves.

I can’t speak for Protias, but my belief is that IF it ended here, then Protias would most likely have filed a complaint and been satisfied to pursue that course of action.

However, it didn’t end there. The local sheriff sends three (3) deputies to his home, at 10:00pm (everybody except me is sleeping in my house by that time). As stated before, three (3) LEO’s in a group can be very intimidating. Why did the officers come to his house on this day? Protias has lived in the community for some time and has been carrying for quite a while. So why did the sheriff’s deputies need to come to his home on this particular day at this particular time? As Protias and others have started asking questions about this, it has come out that the state troopers coerced the local sheriff’s department into visiting Protias.

A complaint is no longer acceptable. Many, if not all, of us who carry now feel/believe the state patrol escalated the situation to harassment of a law-abiding citizen. Six (6) officers from two different departments putting pressure on a single individual, why? Because he exercised his rights?

We are not coming to Sussex to protest against law enforcement, or any particular business. We are coming to Sussex to stand WITH Protias against these types of prejudice, intimidation, and coercion. We, as American citizens cannot allow this type of action, by the government, to go unanswered.

Come and stand with us.

Husker_Fan
February 18, 2010, 08:53 AM
you can not have an uncased or loaded gun in a boat while it is underway or under power.

This is correct. The state legislature felt it was a reasonable step to take in light of all the tragic boating accidents in which people lost their entire gun collections. :neener:

MisterMike
February 18, 2010, 09:54 AM
Duplicate Post. Sorry!

MisterMike
February 18, 2010, 09:57 AM
Mister Mike
How long do you give an LEO before he knows the laws of the jurisdiction he/she has sworn to abide by?

The Wisconsin DA sent out a memorandum months ago to stop this type of situation from happening.But I suppose we should just let them continue to stomp on our rights.

fostoppf--

That's a fair question, but I'll start with the observation that you didn't give us much to go on--a web link to nowhere and, ultimately, a link to a YouTube video that, in itself, is not very compelling proof of harassment. bnhcomputing filled in the gaps, and I thank him for that.

If everything the complainant has alleged is true, then, yes, there's reason to protest. However, if I may elaborate on my original point: You're living in a state that has traditionally been hostile to the RKBA. The current state of affairs came about in a pretty unusual fashion--because of a memorandum published by the state AG, opining that open carry was legal (though he did leave the door open for prosecution in certain vague circumstances)--and not through the legislative process. Now you have the situation where cops, who generally are not legal scholars, are expected to understand an AG's decision without the clarity that a statute or judicial precedent would provide.

They're going to make mistakes. Personally, that's how I'd classify the initial videotaped encounter, standing on its own. However, if it's true that there was a concerted effort to harass the complainant afterward, that's way beyond a mere mistake. If that can be established, it sure seems like an appropriate response would be a lawsuit.

I have to ask one other question, though: Are the RKBA forces in Wisconsin making any concerted effort to educate law enforcement agencies, apart from these lawsuits? I understand that it's not the citizens' duty to educate the enforcers, but it sure seems like it would be a positive step, and it would also remove any possibility of the law enforcement agencies being able to claim that these types of incidents were the result of good faith mistakes.

joe_security
February 18, 2010, 03:41 PM
Not to hijack the thread ( I strongly support OC and RKBA) but I really want to urge everyone who OCs to use a snatch proof retention holster. There is the Serpa and my personal favorites the Safariland 6281 or the newer 6287 (or 0701). These offer the same retentions as the ones used by LEOs on the duty belt. They are marketed as concealment versions, having smaller belt slots than the duty holsters that go on a 2.25" sam brown belt. I would hate to have some whack job try and grab a pistol from an open top holster being open carried. You do not know when you may encounter a suicidal or otherwise disturbed individual. IMHO, this makes you appear as a more responsible and safety minded gun carrier in the eyes of any LEO you may encounter. He may even compliment you on your choice of holster.

Tully M. Pick
February 18, 2010, 04:31 PM
This is correct. The state legislature felt it was a reasonable step to take in light of all the tragic boating accidents in which people lost their entire gun collections.
That many guns rusting in lakes takes a terrible toll on the environment. :evil:

jak67429
February 18, 2010, 05:32 PM
Actually not having a uncased firearm in a moving boat is more of a DNR rule than a state law. But you will still get arrested for it. Last I read if you are seen open carrying in Milwaukee county the sheriff said he would have you arrested for disturbing the peace and or inciting a riot.

rswartsell
February 18, 2010, 06:03 PM
My opinion is that the greatest victory currently available for OC and those who wish to excercise RKBA is for OC to become a fact without any of the negative consequences that antis predict would come about by allowing the average citizen to exercise this right. i.e. "Streets will become unsafe for our children, people of quick temper and poor judgement will resort to gunplay over personal disputes, anarchy will result, law of the jungle will supplant rule of law", and like nonsense. I do not believe that because a person is a LEO that they are automatically an enemy of RKBA. Indeed LEO's make up a significant and valued part of our community. The responsibilities with which they are charged and risks they run routinely will mean that they have a curve to adjust to as OC becomes reality. It is not in our best interest to ever be seen as making their already difficult job more so. It is a PR disaster for the RKBA community to be seen by the general public, however erroneously as being the enemy of Law Enforcement. They will be our most powerful and influential allies.

Does this mean that we must kiss their ring and forfeit our rights on a whim? Of course not, and civil protest may indeed be appropriate in cases of CLEAR PATTERNS of LEO's abusing or overstepping their authority or harassing law abiding citizens. Do you really have that here? It is entirely too easy on the heels of news like the Alabama University incident to see these events as responsible men doing the best they can to protect society in difficult times and the protesters as ill adjusted malcontents with questionable judgement. Not real good for our cause if the cards do indeed fall this way.

My opinion is that following the processes in place for raising complaints and giving every opportunity possible for the system to resolve grievances is necessary for the best image of our community to be put forward. Your complaint centers on LEO's having 2 separate conversations with the complaintant. Hardly Kristallnacht is it guys? Can this be harassment? Possibly, depends on what happens next. A pre-emptive strike by organizing civil protest with the grievance as it currently stands is a heavy handed reaction indeed. IMO we must question whether we are responding to a true need or trying to exercise social power for it's own sake.

One could get the impression that the attempt at organization here assumed a blind obedience and knee jerk reaction from our community because we all are strongly in favor of RKBA. As a rule we are also individualists with independent thought processes that instictively resist being told what to think.

My humble advice is that if you want to be a social activist for this cause, inform first, allow independent interpretation of events and if you find widespread support, then pull the trigger on organizing civil protest. We have all seen pathetic attempts of 6 individuals showing up for a "rally". Such a thing is devastating for the credibility of the message and it usually would have been better for whatever the cause for the rally is if it never had happened.

My sincerest best wishes to all involved here and forgive me for preaching. The opinions are put forth in the interest of becoming more effective.

Lou McGopher
February 19, 2010, 09:23 AM
Now you have the situation where cops, who generally are not legal scholars, are expected to understand an AG's decision without the clarity that a statute or judicial precedent would provide.
They're going to make mistakes.

What happens when regular ol' citizens, who generally are not legal scholars, carry firearms in a manner based on an incorrect understanding of an AG's interpretation of gun laws?

That aside, who called the cops on the MWAG? Maybe I missed that part. I noticed the other 2 cops in the background loading up their trays, so it seems like they just happened to be there. If that's the case, then that cop was out of line, and his questions to the restaurant manager(?) sounded a bit leading. The cops didn't handle this as poorly as other OC encounters have been handled, but I still don't think it was handled properly.

This demonstration has my moral support as long as the tone of the event is kept polite and informative.

MisterMike
February 19, 2010, 10:44 AM
What happens when regular ol' citizens, who generally are not legal scholars, carry firearms in a manner based on an incorrect understanding of an AG's interpretation of gun laws?

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I think there's more than a little ambiguity in Wisconsin at the moment. Here's an excerpt from the AG's advisory memo on the issue of open carry:

The state constitutional right to bear arms extends to openly carrying a handgun for lawful purposes. As illustrated by a recent municipal court case in West Allis, a person openly carrying a holstered handgun on his own property while doing lawn work should not face a disorderly conduct charge. If, however, a person brandishes a handgun in public, the conduct may lose its constitutional protection. Again, “t is the combination of conduct and circumstances that is crucial in applying the [disorderly conduct] statute to a particular situation.” Maker, 48 Wis. 2d at 616.

-http://www.doj.state.wi.us/news/files/FinalOpenCarryMemo.pdf

In my view, this portion of the memo is certain to create ambiguity, confusion, and uneven enforcement. I'd prefer to live in a state where there's an unambiguous right to OC or CC without restriction, but most states with OC laws have at least addressed the issue of whether the right to carry extends to private premises not owned by the armed individual. As far as I can tell, that hasn't been addressed in Wisconsin. So, if a business owner posts a sign prohibiting weapons, does carrying then constitute disorderly conduct?

Going further, is it possible that a business owner or manager might feel so intimidated by an individual carrying a gun openly that he might be afraid to speak? If so, might a cop, acting out of sensitivity to that person's rights, ask if he's okay with it? After ascertaining that the owner/manager doesn't like it, is the cop protecting the owner/manager's rights or trampling on the OCer's rights if he asked the armed individual to leave?

I don't know the answers to these questions. They're left unanswered by the AG's memo. I'm afraid that there will be many more unfavorable conflicts between OCers and cops who are trying to balance according people their rights against the interests of others who might have the bejabbers scared out them, but who are unwilling to confront the gun carrier.

This sort of situation is not unknown to the law, but it leads to a period of uncertainty for OCers. I am in full agreement with those who want to push for an expansive definition of the right to OC and CC, but the sort of confrontation seen in the video is guaranteed to happen when the state of the law is as undefined as unsettled as it appears to be in Wisconsin.

bnhcomputing
February 20, 2010, 12:22 AM
rswartsell:

I agree with most of what you said. I view the officers actions as coersive in nature. He asked the question repeatedly until he got the answer he was looking for.

We 100% support good law enforcement, this was not good law enforcement, this was intimidation.

Then the State Patrol officer uses his influence to get three (3) more officers involved???

MisterMike
February 20, 2010, 09:19 AM
Gents--

Good luck with your protest. I hope you effect greater respect for OC in Wisconsin . . . and I hope that your legislature and governor steps up to the plate with regard to CC in the very near future.

rswartsell
February 20, 2010, 09:58 AM
bnhcomputing,

I feel that the action may be premature until the staties AND the county have had an opportunity to respond to formal complaints, address the situation, and cease with the inquiries which I feel is quite likely. Most agencies are not so bored as to be looking to waste manpower on bogus "offenses". They will however continue to bear the responsibility to determine if there is a problem or not.

Should harrassment continue or if the response to formal complaint indicates a disregard for your rights it will become a different kettle of fish.

You want in any action that involves the media to be able to demonstrate that you have been reasonable and have cooperated with the system but the system refuses to cooperate with you. The media is not known for being our greatest supporters. You need to be able to make a solid case before you jump into the spotlight or the media might just backfire on you.

mongoose33
February 20, 2010, 02:26 PM
I hope nobody shows up. I can't imagine this will help our cause one iota.

wlewisiii
February 20, 2010, 09:07 PM
^^^ +1

William

faustopph
February 20, 2010, 10:27 PM
Sorry if I sounded a bit peeved.I thought all it would take is for anyone to see the video.If you watch the video with the sound off .You can almost feel the troopers "cock of the walk" attitude.
Maybe it is just me ,but this sort of thing happens to often.And not just with Open Carry citizens.

bnh,Thanks for straightening out my poor post.

mrokern
February 21, 2010, 01:14 AM
One thing to be careful of is accusing the officer of being guilty of the same "offense". Be aware that a LEO in most states, whether on-duty or off-duty, has different rules as to the carrying of firearms, including the non-applicability of a policy such as a business banning guns.

bnh, you've met me, so you know I'm on your side. Just giving a little legal/media-oriented advice.

-Mark

rswartsell
February 21, 2010, 03:33 AM
faustopph, bhncomputing,

We are brothers in the cause. I do not wish to imply anything else. We will share our experience, strength, and honesty. Should it become truly necessary I will not hesitate to stand with you.

creepiE
February 24, 2010, 04:12 PM
I wonder if the other LEO officers paid for the buffet?

If you enjoyed reading about "Demonstration.........Waukesha,WI...............Sunday Feb.21st" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!