Hypothetical for the brand bashers out there


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cskny
February 18, 2010, 10:25 AM
So I've read a lot of "brand bashing" on this board (and others). So let me pose a hypothetical question:

If Manufacturer A produces 5000 guns and has a 5% failure rate, they will have 250 guns with problems that require repair.

If Manufacturer B produces 50000 guns but only has a 2% failure rate, they will have 1000 guns with problems that require repair.

Now, on the internet do you suppose I'm more likely to hear about Manufacturer A or B?

Will I hear about the brand with the higher failure RATE or the higher NUMBER of failures?

See the problem? Without actual data, word of mouth and internet chatter can sometimes be useless. Worse, it can paint highly inaccurate pictures.

Be careful out there folks and stop bashing other people's choices unless you have the data to back up your trash talking :)

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General Geoff
February 18, 2010, 10:27 AM
I don't think anyone blames a manufacturer for occasionally producing a lemon, as it is an inevitability with a mass-produced complex mechanical item. The problem comes when they don't stand by their product and fix the problem and/or replace the malfunctioning gun in a timely fashion, without additional cost to the purchaser.

jimmyraythomason
February 18, 2010, 10:34 AM
Worse, it can paint highly inaccurate pictures.
That's it right there.

gwnorth
February 18, 2010, 11:08 AM
It's an internet forum - by definition it's not an unbiased sample of any products or manufacturer. I'm constantly amazed by how much emphasis people seem to put on opinions and comments posted on any of the general firearms forums (same thing could be said about any number of other things with popular forums on the web).

And if you actually frequent several of the most popular firearms forums what you quickly find is it's the same opinions being posted in multiple places, either without any additional supportive information, or simply building on other (equally biased) opinion posted elsewhere.

And like any internet forum, those experiencing negative aspects of a purchase or product are much more likely to post them then someone with no complaints (not criticizing those who do either, it is the basic human nature that when everything goes well you just get on with things, but when things go badly, it feels good to vent a bit and share your frustration).

Arkansas Paul
February 18, 2010, 11:26 AM
I think it goes back to people thinking that their stuff is a cut above other people's stuff. If someone owns brand a, they're going to think it's the best thing ever. Of course if they sell it and buy brand b, then brand b is suddenly much better.

I have been guilty of this from time to time and I try to watch it. That being said, there are a few brands I would never own. (I'm talking about the throwaways and the paperweights. You know the ones)

M2 Carbine
February 18, 2010, 12:05 PM
"brand bashing"
If the person doing the "bashing" hasn't owned the gun, or claims to have a lot of experience with the gun, I pay them little attention.


The FN 5.7 pistol is a good example.
It seems like the gun has magical powers in that a person can just look at one at a gun show and they instantly becomes experts on the gun and ammo.:D


Personally I start out every post with something like,
I've owned the gun for five years and.....
or
I don't own the gun but friends do and I've shot the gun a lot and........
or
I practice with lasers an average of three times a week and.......

MrCleanOK
February 18, 2010, 04:05 PM
You have a good point, that without production numbers the number of failures that we hear about are pretty meaningless. But, I absolutely will fault a company for shoddy customer service or manufacturing processes, which have nothing to do with data that we don't have access to as consumers.

armchairQB
February 18, 2010, 04:09 PM
To answer your question you are more likely to hear screaming to high heaven about the 1000 lemons even though their failure rate is lower.

The rule is: If you hear it on the internet you either, A dont believe it, or B use the rule of 1%. Only believe it 1% of the time. You will be far more accurate in your beliefs then.

jakemccoy
February 18, 2010, 04:16 PM
People brand bash because they enjoy getting other people riled up.

Nasty
February 18, 2010, 04:17 PM
A lot of folks just aren't happy unless they are feeling superior or putting other people down. It's usually an attempt to make up for whatever they are missing in their own lives.

HGUNHNTR
February 18, 2010, 04:36 PM
As long as the brand is a top shelf company (not Lorcin, Raven, etc.) I put little stock in reports of accuracy achieved, failure rate, or anything other than general impressions. I have confidence that every top tier mfr. is going to create a usable product, and will at times produce a lemon. Its up to me to decide which one I like the best.

Big Bill
February 18, 2010, 05:42 PM
Be careful out there folks and stop bashing other people's choices unless you have the data to back up your trash talking...Or else what? Opinions are like hairs, almost everybody's got some. Anyway, who takes anything posted on an internet forum as gospel?

smoothdraw
February 18, 2010, 06:07 PM
But not only failures right.. there's customer care, there is value, there's perceived quality. Gee i own a couple of Kimber and I still bash kimber from time to time.. I bash it because of it's cost relative to its quality is poor. I agree there's a lot of trash in the internet and in forums but there are valuable information also. So you have to use your brain also and see what make sense for you and what's not. Do not say anything bad to people because they have different opinion than you.

You will not be able to test and get information to majority of the products. These informations are valuable. You let people spend and test products for you. All you have to do is make a wise decision who you listen and who you ignore.

jimmyraythomason
February 18, 2010, 06:12 PM
there's perceived quality. One of these days someone is to going adequately define that. Just what IS quality anyway?

Erik M
February 18, 2010, 06:17 PM
I have always held the opinion that people who brand bash are themselves trying to justify spending $1000 on a gun who's job could be done just as reliably by a $500 gun.

ITT: I hate Taurus! That makes me look cool & sophisticated!

cskny
February 18, 2010, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Be careful out there folks and stop bashing other people's choices unless you have the data to back up your trash talking...
Or else what? Opinions are like hairs, almost everybody's got some. Anyway, who takes anything posted on an internet forum as gospel?

It's not about "opinions", opinions are welcome when they are real. it's when someone's doing a good review of a particular gun and a poster comes in and says "oh, so and so says that brand is crap so you're screwed". That's not an opinion.

The "or what" should be us as a community pushing back for DATA and INFO to support some of the silly claims being made OR telling those posters collectively to shut the hell up because their wasting everyone's time.

You know what, as a side note, it's scary how many people DO take what they read as meaningful and walk around parroting it.

BigO01
February 18, 2010, 07:28 PM
Fact is some people aren't happy unless they are complaining about something even if ther's nothing wrong to complain about , let me illistrate with a true short story .

My second job as a teenager was working in a bowling alley as a porter/general gopher .

Every week night the place was full at 6 pm with leagues .

Monday was all ladies for the early shift and every Monday I had this one particular women who would moan and groan and comlain to the manager about how dirty the lanes she was on were , I swear to listen to her you would have thought a herd of horses had spent the day pooping where she was every week .

After a few months of this I got so sick of it I went in 30 minutes early on my own time and cleaned her area and the ones on each side to the point a Doctor could have used them as an OR room yet once again within 5 minutes she was up to her usual routine complaining away , the funny part was I used so much Pine cleaner and bleach every other women within 50 feet of her lanes were complaining how strong the odor of all the cleaning products were !!!

mljdeckard
February 18, 2010, 07:41 PM
I have pointed out this idea many times. Brand bashers don't care.

pingpingping
February 19, 2010, 02:45 PM
As a gun lover, I love all guns. Would I buy all guns? No, some are better than others. If someone showed me a gun I thought was junk, I would still want to check it out and shoot it, and probably think it's neat...hey, at least he's got a gun.

I can't understand why gun-loving people bash gun-loving people's guns.

SwampWolf
February 19, 2010, 03:24 PM
My sentiments exactly, pingpingping.

Big Bill
February 19, 2010, 05:40 PM
I had a Hi Point once and didn't like it and will never buy another one. If I voice that opinion here, then am I a brand basher?

EddieNFL
February 19, 2010, 06:59 PM
The problem comes when they don't stand by their product and fix the problem and/or replace the malfunctioning gun in a timely fashion, without additional cost to the purchaser.

Bingo.

What I look for are comments such as, "My model 12345X constantly malfunctioned. I called and they told me how to fix it. Hmmm. Known problem, simple fix, but it left the factory anyway. Next.

EddieNFL
February 19, 2010, 07:00 PM
I had a Hi Point once and didn't like it and will never buy another one. If I voice that opinion here, then am I a brand basher?
At least to those who like Hi Points.

Big Bill
February 19, 2010, 07:18 PM
At least to those who like Hi Points.Well then, they must be perdy thin skinned. I didn't realize that some gun owners liked to be stroked so much. So, I guess we all just need to tell people here what they want to hear. Right? No dissenting opinions allowed!

bikerdoc
February 19, 2010, 07:27 PM
You all can write what you want, if it is backed up by personal experience it is not bashing, just what happened to you. If I dont agree I will either move on or answer politely based on my experience. In the end everyone should be able to make up their own mind over time with facts not opinions.

That what the The High Road is - learn a lot, teach a little, make friends, and have fun.

jimmyraythomason
February 19, 2010, 07:36 PM
I just wish folks would say "the Xgun I had was junk" NOT "everything Xguns makes is junk".

EddieNFL
February 19, 2010, 07:53 PM
I would never buy anything from Xguns!

shockwave
February 19, 2010, 07:55 PM
One of these days someone is to going adequately define that. Just what IS quality anyway?

The attempt at trying to answer that question put author and philosopher Robert Pirsig (he wrote Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) into a psychiatric hospital for a while. But I like to live dangerously so I'll take a stab at it.

First, "quality" is a word that, like "set" or "lock," has many different senses. Each sense requires a separate definition, and collectively, those become the standard definition in total. To save time, let's look at the sense referred to here: perceived quality. This would be the assessment of a gun being well made, having good fit and finish, and being both durable and reliable.

I would judge my 686 as being a firearm of exceptional quality. It seems to have no flaws whatsoever and I don't feel that I overpayed for it - I did pay a lot but I feel that I got what I paid for. Price and performance have to be weighed against one another in judging quality. I've read here that Hi Point are the cheapest automatics and thus are not of the highest quality. But if they are reliable an owner might be satisfied with its quality, if price/performance balance acceptably.

Big Bill
February 19, 2010, 08:28 PM
I would never buy anything from Xguns! WHAT! Xguns rocks! :) (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

jimmyraythomason
February 19, 2010, 08:48 PM
But if they are reliable an owner might be satisfied with its quality, if price/performance balance acceptably. I can agree with that assessment. I too have a Model 686 that I consider high quality. I also have an RG-22 which belonged to my late father that I carried on my trapline for 20+ years that never malfuctioned in any way. It did everything it was designed to do and did it reliably. Would I consider it the equal of the 686? Not a chance. Would I can it junk? Absolutely not.

gunnie
February 19, 2010, 08:58 PM
..."Opinions are like hairs, almost everybody's got some."...

opinions are like rectums. everybody has one, and a lot of them stink.

i recall a story written by roy rogers. in it he talks about a top grade (don't recall actual model variation name) model 12 clark gable had just purchased, and was trying out for the first time at a clay pigeon range. he couldn't hit squat with it, and disgusted he offered it to roy for a vastly reduced price. it was the first gun roy rogers broke 25 with....

gunnie

zxcvbob
February 19, 2010, 09:06 PM
I don't think anyone blames a manufacturer for occasionally producing a lemon, as it is an inevitability with a mass-produced complex mechanical item. The problem comes when they don't stand by their product and fix the problem and/or replace the malfunctioning gun in a timely fashion, without additional cost to the purchaser.
Agreed. I just wish folks would say "the Xgun I had was junk" NOT "everything Xguns makes is junk".
And yet some problems, like critical parts that fail right out of the box because they were not heat-treated, are bad enough that even one instance is enough to cast doubt on the entire brand.

(I'm just waiting for the you-know-who fanboys to show up.)

RobMoore
February 19, 2010, 09:15 PM
After seeing so many of the "my gun sucks" threads, I'm convinced a generous half of the problems are caused my ignorant owners. A hefty portion of the other is owners who have failed to send a faulty gun back in for service, and complain on the internet first. There is a small minority of problems that are a failure on the part of the maker to put out a good product, and fix what doesn't come out right.

jimmyraythomason
February 19, 2010, 09:36 PM
And yet some problems, like critical parts that fail right out of the box because they were not heat-treated, are bad enough that even one instance is enough to cast doubt on the entire brand.
My only experience with the Browning Hi-Power pistol was bad. The gun was very well fitted and finished. It looked good ,that's why I bought it(1975). The problem was the trigger pull was atrocious. I got rid of it post-haste and have had no interest in the Hi-Power line since. I would definitely say that that Belgium made Browning was of high "quality" but it was useless to me.

EddieNFL
February 19, 2010, 09:39 PM
One of these days someone is to going adequately define that. Just what IS quality anyway?

A little like beauty? In the eye of the beholder?

newgunmike
February 19, 2010, 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bill
I had a Hi Point once and didn't like it and will never buy another one. If I voice that opinion here, then am I a brand basher?

well if all you say is " i dont like them and im not gonna spend my money buying another hi-point" then no its not bashing. the problem is when someone owns it for 5 minutes and doesn't like the feel and starts saying that all hi-points are crap and the jam up all the time and are only good as a ugly paper weight.

wally
February 19, 2010, 11:15 PM
and are only good as a ugly paper weight

Hey its pretty easy to find a paper weight that uglier and more expensive than a High Point, those Lucite blocks with a rattlesnake embedded jump quickly to mind :)

--wally.

larryh1108
February 19, 2010, 11:28 PM
I love my Raven! I love my Phoenix Arms HP22! I love all my Llamas! Eeek! I must be gun ignorant! Wait, I love my Glock, my Kahr, my Ruger and my Browning Hi Power. How can this be? I must have a dumb twin. They all perform as expected. Some have a better fit and finish. All go bang when I pull the trigger. I must be gun ignorant.

wgaynor
February 20, 2010, 05:07 AM
I love all guns... my wife thinks I'm sick.

frankiestoys
February 20, 2010, 08:54 AM
These forums are to inform others, talk about guns and related items ,mags, grips, ammo,ect. Theres always going to be someone who has something negative to say, sometimes it might be even justified. With that said lets not forget that not every one has a bank roll to spend, so if a member ask ''what will x buy me?'' Give sound advise based on ones own experience not on what my freinds uncle's friends said, or'' you get what you pay for''(love that one).
Ive been on this forum for a short while theres alot of great info and then not so great, most gun owner's just love guns thats why were all here, right?
So does the guy who owns a Smith or Kimber drive a Chevy or a Dodge ? Who cares's
Maybe the guy who owns the Hi point drives a BMW, its all what you like!
Have fun and be safe.:D

jimmyraythomason
February 20, 2010, 09:43 AM
These forums are to inform others that their choices are all wrong and I wouldn't do it like that. At least that's how it often appears.

mcdonl
February 23, 2010, 02:09 PM
that their choices are all wrong and I wouldn't do it like that. At least that's how it often appears.

More often then not

mljdeckard
February 23, 2010, 03:25 PM
I often tell my Sigma story (which is a BAD story) when someone asks about them. The fanboys THROW A FIT. I have to defend myself, explaining, "It doesn't matter if you like them, or if it's unlikely, it still happened to ME, and that's all I am saying. Just because you like it doesn't make it any less true." I only make a claim about MY experience, I never try to say what happened to anyone else.

larryh1108
February 23, 2010, 03:57 PM
Hi mlj,

I am like you. If it happens to me I will share it, for whatever it is worth. Ask my opinion and I will share it with you.

Now, as the internet thing goes, if a buddy asks me if I know anything about the Sigma line and asks my opinion, I will tell him what I know first hand. (They seem solid and affordable and I've never had an issue with one). Now, I will not tell him about a guy I "met" on the internet that had a bad experience with one. That is now heresay. I believe you but I was not there to witness it. You and I never met. The problems on the net are those that heard from a friend who has a friend who surfs the net and read about a guy who had XXX happen to him. He won't tell him of the other net forums where 72 guys said they love it and 2 had a bad experience. That's why we all take what we read with a grain of salt.

I know that within 1 minute I can find bad reports from every gun ever made out there. If I want to buy a Kahr, i go to the Kahr forums. If I want a Taurus, I go to the Taurus forums, etc. I will read what guys like you and me say about them, not press releases by guys paid by them. I know I'll read bad things but if the good outweighs the bad by 100 to 1 then I know I have a good chance of getting a decent gun. If it's 10 to one then I may reassess my option.

ArmedBear
February 23, 2010, 04:00 PM
The attempt at trying to answer that question put author and philosopher Robert Pirsig (he wrote Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) into a psychiatric hospital for a while.

Reading his most famous book can cause a similar reaction.

That said, there's a good reason that people "bash" something. While it is hard to define "quality" comprehensively, it is generally easy to identify "crap." According to Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is crap, too, so it's easy to find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law

Ky Larry
February 23, 2010, 05:33 PM
The stuff I read on this and other gun boards is the same thing I hear at gun shops and shooting ranges. Some of it is imformative and some of it is B.S. Feel free to bash away. We all have the same right to be completely full of beans as everyone else.

Drail
February 23, 2010, 09:46 PM
I don't think it is so much "brand bashing" as it is bashing poor designs and poor quality control. Unfortunately the market is flooded with this now. So many have bought into this notion of guns that won't work out of the box and telling themselves it just needs to be "broken in".

Shadow 7D
February 23, 2010, 11:13 PM
The issue is, quite simply, that some designs were dangerous, prone to doing things they shouldn't have, or some guns were made with substandard material prone to failure.

but the aesthetics, well that's a personal thing, much like the ergos, it changes person to person, so it you *hate* black glocks, but love everything tactikool it's an opinion, which another philosopher compared to a body part that everybody has....

conhntr
February 23, 2010, 11:39 PM
there is also the issue of negative issues being over reported.

i.e people that are unhappy are more likely to come online and complain, than people that are happy coming on to praise.

that said if you can read between the lines the forums are still useful.

however the original example of either a 2% or 5% failure rate? for a firearm (used for defense, hunting, competition) either rate would is completely unacceptable

ArmedBear
February 24, 2010, 02:43 PM
there is also the issue of negative issues being over reported.


I suppose that most people figure that their $300-1000 comprise sufficient positive feedback to the maker of the firearm.:D

that said if you can read between the lines the forums are still useful.


The Internet has made the skills of critical thinking and "reading between the lines" into some of the most important skills out there. We have instant access to almost any information we want -- but we need to learn to evaluate it well.:)

Sniper X
February 24, 2010, 02:55 PM
My observation is that most if not all of those who brand bash, if pressed never had a item from the company they are bashing. They are usually describing something they heard which could or could not be from someone who actually had a sample of the brand either. I hear this all the time on another board about Range Rover vehicles, everyone who i have heard negative stuff from never personally owned one.

Another thing I might mention, I also think a lot of brand bashing is form a disgruntled client of a brad who possibly had a problem due to either their own negligence or outright abuse, and wasn't covered by warranty or service because of it. Plus, it al ways seems to be only bad stuff we hear when someone has a bad experience, we almost never hear the good stuff.

mcdonl
February 24, 2010, 02:59 PM
Well then, they must be perdy thin skinned. I didn't realize that some gun owners liked to be stroked so much

Yeah? Try bashing a Kimber. See how people come to their defense... do that to any gun and people will come to the guns defense. Do a search on "fill in the blank" gun sucks, or biggest POS and you will see EVERY manufacturer show up many times.

The biggest problem with Hi Point is the Fat Chick / Moped syndrome.

Everyone says... They do what they are supposed to, go bang every time but I would never buy one. Ok, other then having your priorities out of whack it is like riding a Moped... they are fun, everyone wants to ride it but no one wants their buddies to see them. Not that they do not function and perform as they are designed, it is mostly about the vanity of the rider. The moped is not designed to be a race bike, nor is the Hi Point designed to be a CCW or Competition gun.

Now, I have seen some good reports on the drawbacks of the blow back design, the clumsy feel and the fact they cannot be taken down without tools. Good valid reasons to not buy a gun. But, to say... I would never buy one because they are ugly... well... that argument seems less then well thought out.

SwampWolf
February 24, 2010, 03:15 PM
But, to say... I would never buy one because they are ugly... well... that argument seems less then well thought out.

It's not an argument; it's an admittedly subjective (but well thought-out) viewpoint. It's been said that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Well, so is ugly and, to my eye, the Hi-Point is one very ugly firearm. Ugly enough to make a Glock look downright pretty. :)

Before you label me a Hi-Point "basher", read my earlier post where I'm agreeing with the sentiment that all firearms are intriguing and that I've never met one I didn't like...well, almost never.

mcdonl
February 24, 2010, 03:35 PM
Before you label me a Hi-Point "basher", read my earlier post where I'm agreeing with the sentiment that all firearms are intriguing and that I've never met one I didn't like...well, almost never.

Hey man, I was commenting on the statement, not the one who made it sorry about that. I was just saying that if anyone says anything bad about any firearms, the owners of said firearms will get panties bunched up... $200 or $2000 gun... doesnt matter.

No offense intended.

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