25 yard accuracy with a pistol seems impossible...


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Macchina
February 20, 2010, 11:32 AM
I have been shooting pistols for a few years now, and can keep small (1.5-2") freehand groups at 7 yards when shooting at a decent pace. I can shoot this with my Ruger MkIII as well my CZ and Sig in .40 (Taurus TCP doesn't count here) and I am plenty happy with my group size, I'm working on speeding it up now. The moment I move to the 15 yard range I am lucky to keep all of my carefully aimed shots in a 6" circle. I shoot at targets printed on 8.5x11 standard paper and can keep all shots on the paper, but the paper pretty much is my group. I can do a bit better with the MkIII, but 4-5" groups are the norm here. When I move out to 25 yards, I need a bigger target...

I read gun mags when they review a gun I am interested in and always notice the groups are ridiculous numbers in the 1.5-2" range freehand at 25 yards :eek:. Now I know a gun writing has many tens of thousands more rounds downrange than me, but that kind of accuracy seems impossible. I cannot hold steady enough to even dream of that kind of accuracy, let alone lining up combat sights constantly. I understand the fundamentals of shooting (front sight focus, steady/consistent posture and grip, etc.), but I know I have a long way to go until I'm consistently on paper at 25 yards.

Having said all this, I know it is possible. I grew up shooting shotguns and .22's and can instinctively shoot a flushed woodcock or partridge in the thick stuff almost every time. I've progressed to head shots only on squirrels and can get them running most of the time with a .22. I know what good shooting is, just not with a pistol. It seems long gun skills don't seem to transfer over to pistol skills very well.

Let's keep this thread honest here. What kind of accuracy do you actually shoot, and what advice can you give me to tighten up my groups?

Here are some of the problems I know I have:
>Shaky hands (coffee is my enemy here)
>Low groups due to pulling down the muzzle. I know my problem here is trigger pull. I have a hard time breaking the habit of a quick pull instead of a slow press or whatever.
>Fatiguing after 1/2 hour of shooting. This is about my limit before I start to get shaky and my groups deteriorate.

I would like advice on:
>Accurate posture (feet, body angle)
>What angle to hold my elbows at. I currently extend my arms about 75% with my elbow joints parallel with the ground.
>Grip. How tight (I've heard both very and hardly), where to put my thumbs.

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Al LaVodka
February 20, 2010, 11:56 AM
Take a class w/a good coaching instructor. I am not boasting but have even picked up someone elses gun for the first time, in this case a long Ruger .41 Mag, and kept within 2" groups at 50 yards, standing.

You, too, can do this.

Al

rikman
February 20, 2010, 11:57 AM
I don't shot at that distance often. Especially offhand and rarely with my "stock" combat guns if you will? The few times I do, its with my very accurate 1911's which have a light trigger and are accurized from the shop. Wilson CQB,Kimber Super Match,Les Baer,Springfield Professional. Anyway , when I do, I'm happy with hitting the silouette .

I guess offhand at that distance breathing comes into play?

bluetopper
February 20, 2010, 12:13 PM
I can't stress enough to gently squeeze the trigger and let it going off be a surprise to you.

I meet up with a couple of buddies nearly every weekend at the outdoor unsupervised range and we see who can shoot the tightest groups at 25yds. with our cast lead reloads. Shooters now days don't find much fun in this but we do.
Of course the type of gun you use makes all the difference in the world. We use well made 1911's, S&W revolvers, and old High Standard 22's. Short barreled polymers need not apply.
I'm a consistent 10-shot, 96-97 shooter and will drill a 99 occasionally.

You ask about posture and stance? Well really whatever is most comfortable is my opinion. One friend who is as good a shooter as I ever saw keeps his elbow bent quite a bit to about a 45 degree angle, but I like to shoot with my arm straight out.

blitzen
February 20, 2010, 12:25 PM
If you are happy with your groups at 7 yds, next time shoot at eight yards. Do not move back to 9 yds until you are happy at 8 and so on. When I found out how bad I was I started at 3 yrds. For me when I could cover 10 shots with a Copenhagen can I moved back one yard. It took many, many stings of fire to get backed up but it worked. Excpect to spend a lot of time shooting to be as good as you suggest. Have fun.

Wheeler44
February 20, 2010, 12:32 PM
Here are some of the problems I know I have:
>Shaky hands (coffee is my enemy here) Try to limit coffee on range days (I know how hard it is)
>Low groups due to pulling down the muzzle. I know my problem here is trigger pull. I have a hard time breaking the habit of a quick pull instead of a slow press or whatever.Dry fire ,dry fire, dry fire.then dry fire some more.watch carefully what is happening when you squeeze the trigger..work at keeping sights aligned through the pull and long enough to mentally say "follow through" before starting the next shot
>Fatiguing after 1/2 hour of shooting. This is about my limit before I start to get shaky and my groups deteriorate.You don't mention age and physical condition but....It helps to take small breaks and rehydrate and add some calories (starchy foods not sugar or proteins).....

The #1 thing that I learned from old pistol shooters....build up the muscles...My mentor ate her breakfast while holding a milk jug at arms length...after a few weeks the trembling subsides ...She also made us kids hold an old "sad iron" out at arms length for a minute at a time until we stopped shaking.

Those old pistol shooters used a stance different than most use these days...in fact my kids get chided for their "odd" stance (Turned strong side towards target, one handed, off hand in back pocket) until the targets get checked and scored...

Onward Allusion
February 20, 2010, 12:37 PM
From sandbags or ransom rest NOT off-hand...

Can 1" groups at 25 yards be done off-hand with an off the shelf duty pistol? Sure. By most people? VERY Doubtful. With a 22LR - much better odds.

I do 1" groups at 10 yards on a good day with off the shelf non-race guns. I typically do 2".

michaelmcgo (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=38402)
25 yard accuracy with a pistol seems impossible...

armoredman
February 20, 2010, 01:16 PM
I shoot at 25 occaisionally...some aren't too bad.
P07 at 25, using range bag as a benchrest - doesn't work too well, BTW.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/25yardpistolrange3.jpg

Be great if it was a 3 shot group! Be OK if it was a 4 shot group. BUT, it was a 5 shot...no idea where number 5 went. :scrutiny:

See, don't feel bad at all. I need to take more pics at 25, see if I can get some decent groups...

mljdeckard
February 20, 2010, 01:29 PM
I think onward illusion nailed it. Most of the time it's from a rest.

First of all, when most gunfights take place at less than ten yards, I'm not really concerned with how accurate they are at 25. For poops and giggles, I did sandbag my Kimber and I managed a 2" group under circumstances.....that I will never see in the real world. If you're into bullseye shooting, long-range accuracy is important, combat accuracy is much more forgiving.

kingmt
February 20, 2010, 02:05 PM
I shoot about 30 yards & while I can't do 1" groups I do keep it to about 3". I can do this with most pistols & revolvers if they are working right. I have found that I shoot a heaver gun better then a light one (I am also a little shaky). I also stage the trigger because if I tried to hold on target as I slowly squeezed the trigger I would be all over the place & I would never take that much time if I needed it for self defense.

I would like to agree with some of the other posters on there suggestions. The moving back one or two yards sounds like a good idea. Dry fire & short breaks help a great deal. Dry fire helps break flinching that you might not even know that you are doing. I can't support lowering coffee consumption even though it might help also.

50 yards is about the max I could kill a notebook but if it is over 50 yards & coming after me the I will ether get my rifle or have to wait until it gets closer. I still want to become a better shot but not at giveing up the speed I need at self defense so I would practice both. Make sure that you stay proficient at fast 7 yard shots because this & closer is where you are likely using self defense shooting. 30 & under my be needed to defend someone else.

My longest shot that I can scenario is 30 yards & that is to defend someone else. If a longer shot is needed to defend my home or country then I'm going for the rifle.

ETA: I have never tried a hand gun or pistol from a rest. I just cant figure out how this could be comfort able or practical for self defence. Maybe bracing your weak shoulder to help take some of the shake out.

Sorry. I am starting to run on a bit.

Mikhail Weiss
February 20, 2010, 02:15 PM
At 15 yards my best groups out of a G19, standing, using two-hands, no rest, is two inches. My most common groups at that distance run right around 4.7 inches. That's whether I'm taking my time and trying hard or shooting apace. (In fact, I can usually shrink the group maybe another inch to an inch and a half if I don't try too hard and simply shoot in rhythm. I suspect this means I'm paying more attention to trigger pull, and I don't take so much time that I wobble off target, when I do that.)

At 25 yards, my best stand-up, freehand group is six inches, but my average is likely eight to nine (though the last time I shot at that distance, the group measured 7 inches). Amazingly enough, my first shot at 15 or 25 yards is often a bullseye, everything after that worse. I'm almost always shooting 115 grain something-or-others (Blazer aluminum, Remington or Winchester bulk).

At 15 or 25 yards, my biggest problem is simply pulling the trigger too hard, or yanking it when I think I have the bullseye.

Of course I'm also using factory sights, so maybe I should blame those... :)

I have no idea where these results, or the speed at which I achieve them, fall in the spectrum of good or bad shooting, but it's where I am right now. I'm working to improve. Here's how: relax on the long shots. That's the main difference between my first shots and the later ones. First ones good. Later ones bad.


I would like advice on:
>Accurate posture (feet, body angle)
>What angle to hold my elbows at. I currently extend my arms about 75% with my elbow joints parallel with the ground.
>Grip. How tight (I've heard both very and hardly), where to put my thumbs.


My advice is likely not worth a hill'o beans, but the things you cite above are less important than the basics of trigger pull and sight picture. Maintain an accurate sight picture while pulling the trigger, you'll hit your mark. That said, sometimes I stand very classically Chapman / Modified Weaver, and sometimes Modern Isosceles. But mostly I stand squarely facing the target, right arm straight, left one bent, elbow down, in a Chapman-like posture, thumbs locked in what's not quite a combat grip, and what's not quite a thumbs-forward one. Right hand grips pistol with thumb pointing forward alongside the frame. Left-hand thumb rides alongside and slightly over the top of the right-hand thumb. Kooky sounding as this is, it's comfortable for me, and I get better results with it at those ranges than I do with the MI techniques.

Here's a pretty good article about grips (with pictures) and some of the thinking behind them, by the way.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combatg_100306/

Good luck with your efforts. Have fun.

xXxplosive
February 20, 2010, 02:19 PM
My best is to hit the 3" dia. swinging metal target at 25 yards off hand with my S&W Model 36 Chief Special.....Great little accurate revolver in .38 Spcl.......Breath control, Press the trigger, Concentrate on your front sight.

wlewisiii
February 20, 2010, 02:39 PM
Two thoughts -

1) I use paper plates as my targets. A 9" paper plate gives a good approximation of the kill zone on a human or a white-tail deer. If you can keep all rounds in that plate at what ever your given distance, you have sufficient functional accuracy.

2) Every firearm likes some ammo better than other. I recently picked up a S&W Model 64 and was shooting 3" - 4" groups at 10 yards with 158 gr. LRN. I changed to +P 125 gr JHP (and changed nothing else) and shot a bit over an inch group with the first cylinder full. My Mauser 93 is that fussy about it's 7x57 diet too.

Oh and a third thing too - a good solid two hand grip will help a whole lot as well. Unless you're shooting Bullseye or are injured, there is no reason to shoot one handed.

Enjoy!

William

ironvic
February 20, 2010, 02:46 PM
Best 25 yard groups I ever made were with a S&W Model 52 .38 Special semi-auto wadcutter gun. It was so accurate, it got boring for me, no challenge, so my brother has it now. Sweet li'l shooter, though. I always do much better when I concentrate on that front sight. These days I do just fine with various revolvers if I remember that all-important front sight.

The Lone Haranguer
February 20, 2010, 02:47 PM
I read gun mags when they review a gun I am interested in and always notice the groups are ridiculous numbers in the 1.5-2" range freehand at 25 yards
By "freehand" I assume this is the classic one-handed target shooting stance. I seriously doubt if any gun scribbler is doing this, or is even capable of it. Nor are many guns, for that matter. It is more likely that these groups are being fired from a bench rest or even a machine rest. This is done to eliminate the human factor (as much as possible) and concentrate on the accuracy capability of the handgun itself.

James T Thomas
February 20, 2010, 03:27 PM
Mike:

You're experienced with shooting, so I hesitate to add such an obvious statement, however:

Recheck your eye focus on that front sight blade.

At the closer ranges, the eye focus is not so dectectable.
At the further ranges, of course; the target becomes less and less in focus
-as you focus on that arm length away front sight.
It becomes a reflex almost, to fight the tendency not to focus on that terribly out of focus, and far away target. Especially if your target is pale or not distinct.

Get a black one, orange, or some contrasting color.

With the target ..way..out of focus, and the front sight crisp and clear,
see how well you can place them.

9mmepiphany
February 20, 2010, 03:58 PM
I would like advice on:
>Accurate posture (feet, body angle)
>What angle to hold my elbows at. I currently extend my arms about 75% with my elbow joints parallel with the ground.
>Grip. How tight (I've heard both very and hardly), where to put my thumbs.

different things work for different people, that's why the best route to follow would be to get some proper instruction. i could tell you how i do it, but watching you shoot and making small corrections is the only way for you to discover what will work best for you.

i recently went out shooting with a new local new shooter who wanted help with her stance when shooting her new Glock G19...her husband wisely declined to teach her on his Kimber 1911. we spent about an hour and a half and about 20 rounds for her to be able to print 3 rounds into 2" at 7 yards...bear in mind that i had to explain everything starting with correct sight alignment to her.

i'll tell you what i teach for a client who is willing to practice to get better, as opposed to what i would teach someone who just needed a solid foundation in a limited time and might not practice again.

1. face the target with your feet about shoulder width apart, bend you knees so that when you bring your gun up your hips are over your heels
2. when would your elbow joints not be parallel with the ground? i advise you start with your arms just short of being locked out...so a little bend, don't over extend your joint
3a. i teach handshake pressure...it allows better trigger control
3b. the support thumb is parallel with the bore; the strong thumb should rest atop the support thumb's joint.

your ability to put rounds on target is almost sole dependent on your being able to control the trigger...same student as above could hold/sight well enough to have all shots within 1/2" when i managed her trigger (they would have all been in one cluster but she lost focus)

jakemccoy
February 20, 2010, 05:11 PM
Hickock45 can hit where he's aiming at about 75 yards by using subcompact Glocks. At 20 yards, it seems like he could hit plate size targets in his sleep. He's standing up, no bench rest, and it's cold outside.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45#p/c/7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1/3/LdqIhmu9Fuk
http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45#p/c/7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1/2/BPvMJcmpVsQ

Here's an analogy. I didn't realize how much work it took to become a pro basketball player until I started getting pretty good in college basketball. When you see pro basketball players make half court shots without a problem during practice, they're actually that good. They have worked their asses off. They make it look easy, but it's NOT luck.

I think it's possible to become accurate at mid-range with a handgun. However, like being a pro athlete, having excellent shoot skill requires hard work and dedication.

zxcvbob
February 20, 2010, 05:41 PM
3b. the support thumb is parallel with the bore; the strong thumb should rest atop the support thumb's joint.
:what: Isn't that a good way to lose a thumb if you're shooting a revolver? Or am I just not visualizing it right?

9mmepiphany
February 20, 2010, 05:53 PM
Isn't that a good way to lose a thumb if you're shooting a revolver? Or am I just not visualizing it right?
the OP wasn't asking about shooting a revolver
I can shoot this with my Ruger MkIII as well my CZ and Sig in .40
and i wasn't when talking about my student either
when shooting her new Glock G19

how did you make the leap to applying the exact same techniques to a wheelgun?

i just took out my S&W M-696 to try it and i don't see how your thumb would be endangered...i assume you're talking about the support thumb's proximity to the front of the cylinder

zxcvbob
February 20, 2010, 05:58 PM
how did you make the leap to a wheelgun?
It looked to me like those were your generic instructions for any handgun: "i'll tell you what i teach for a client who is willing to practice to get better"

ms6852
February 20, 2010, 06:07 PM
I practice all the time at 25 yds with my 1911. I can keep my 7 shots too under 3". I had trigger work on them done to a 3lb pull. I can hit a paper size plate at 100 yds 4 of 7 times with commercial reloads. I practice long distance because I don't want to let anyone close to me should their ever be a gunfight. Just my thing.

The Lone Haranguer
February 20, 2010, 06:25 PM
Be great if it was a 3 shot group! Be OK if it was a 4 shot group. BUT, it was a 5 shot...no idea where number 5 went.
The "best three" (the three tightly clustered holes) are probably what the gun is capable of.

9mmepiphany
February 20, 2010, 06:31 PM
It looked to me like those were your generic instructions for any handgun: "i'll tell you what i teach for a client who is willing to practice to get better"
that's why i prefaced it with this
different things work for different people, that's why the best route to follow would be to get some proper instruction. i could tell you how i do it, but watching you shoot and making small corrections is the only way for you to discover what will work best for you.

they were generic, that doesn't mean they are applicable to every specific instance. that's what generic means...general and common

EddieNFL
February 20, 2010, 08:09 PM
Dry fire helps break flinching that you might not even know that you are doing.

That's why he's the king.

Dry fire, dry fire and dry fire. Also, dry fire a lot. I suggest you add dry fire training.

oldfool
February 20, 2010, 11:00 PM
this suggestion is no doubt WRONG
you obviously have learned skills with long guns, and shoot better than most of us non-pros at 7 yards and such with handguns

but at "longer ranges" with a handgun, you might be looking at "results" instead of sighting on target.. stupid as it sounds, it is a tad too easy to do with a handgun vs. a rifle
a little bit like a world class All-Pro NFL football wide receiver who long ago forgot how to NOT catch a football thrown right at his chest, but "looking ahead of it" and dropping it, you have to "look it in", not look at it after

pretty crappy analogy, and real likely totally irrelevant

but if you do what you already do, I really don't think your stance or sight picture is an issue
different people like different stances and holds
you probably found your own a long time ago
worrying too much about that might well be a distracting distraction

once you have the basics down, got your stance, got your sight picture, got your squeeze, got your grip, right for you, it's not really muscle memory anymore, it's mental focus, see the shot go thru the target X before the shot goes off, not after
(yeah, I know that sounds contrary to "looking ahead", an oxymoron)

but if you are looking at paper zero.point.zero.one second after the shot, you are not looking at your sight picture, you are looking at paper, no need to, the paper will not move, but your sight picture just might

what some here have better said is lack of "surprise" when the loud sound happened

and as good as snap cap practice is, you will never look too soon for the hole in the paper too soon, not ever, not with snap caps... no hole
(but you can do the same with a hammer triggered laser pulse)

or mebbe not

PS
but I wouldn't waste my time worrying about what gun rag writers can do off a Ransom rest, or off hand

shoot well, be well, be safe

Mr. Whimsy
February 20, 2010, 11:53 PM
It seems like people practicing for combat don't put much emphasis on 25 yard accuracy, which is troubling.

Shooting fast at 25 feet is great, but 25 yards is a good test of your fundamental marksmanship skills.

Handgunners need to know how to shoot accurately before they speed things up. No one wants a stray shot to hit an innocent bystander.

Get a good .22 pistol, forget the striker-fired and DAO autos until you can master something with a crisp trigger pull. Then you can handicap yourself with combat tupperware.

jfrey
February 21, 2010, 12:39 AM
Just for funzies, I sometimes shoot at 6" steel squares at a distance of 50 or 60 yards. I can normally hit them 4 out of 5 shots, but that is with a highly tuned 1911. I wouldn't even come close with my normal carry gun, a Cw9. That's a long shot with a pistol. Most of my practice is done art 15 yds. 2" groups are not uncommon at that range.

NOLAEMT
February 21, 2010, 12:56 AM
Try putting up a "B27" type target at 25 yards. If you are shooting for self-defense training, I think you might be surprised at the distribution of hits you are getting. It might not be all into the "10 ring" but I bet the majority of your hits will be to something that is going to make whoever is attacking you think twice about their actions.

Being a better shot is always a good thing, but you don't NEED to be able to print pretty groups at 25 yards to effectively defend yourself. (but it cant hurt!)

atlanticfire
February 21, 2010, 02:01 AM
I understand where you coming from. When I first started pistol shooting I couldn’t hit spit. I found that with good form I just needed to practice......a lot. Everyone shoots just a tad bit different. Eyes see things different. The more cases of ammo down range the better I seam to get. I don't keep historical records and group sizes like a lot of guys, I just shoot a lot because I enjoy it. Since today was the first warm day in a long time I went to my parents’ farm with my brother and was shooting at old kitchen pots (12”) on a dirt hill. With my 1911 I was able to hit them 5 out of 8 times at about 40-45 yards away. Which was better than my brother, who again doesn’t shoot as much as I do. There are some guys on here that will dumb down about those kinds of numbers. But I look at it this way, if I was in a defensive position that would be good enough.

Oh, I forgot. I didn't have my hearing protection (I know its bad!). So I was shooting with one hand so that I could use my other to block my bad ear.

bds
February 21, 2010, 05:19 AM
michaelmcgo, this is what I do to help new shooters improve accuracy/match shooting:

1. I let them know that some factory ammunition are not accurate and prone to flyers - This is true and that's why most match shooters reload for accurate match ammunition. :D

2. After stance and isosceles triangle double thumb stacked grip, I have them dry fire until they do not move the front sight.

3. Using 8x11 copy paper as target at 3 yards (yes 3 yards), I have them practice until all of their 5 shot groups are under 2 inches. All causes for flyers are addressed and corrected as they happen.

4. Targets are moved to 5 yards, 7 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards WHEN they consistently maintain their shot groups. If shot groups get larger, variable causes are addressed and targets are moved back.

5. Once 15 yard shot groups are maintained, 8x11 copy paper is cut in half and mounted side by side with one lower back at 5 yards. Shots are fired target to target until same 2" groups are maintained.

6. Two 1/2 sheet targets are moved to 7 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards WHEN they consistently maintain their shot groups.

7. Back to step 3 - 6 for double tap drills.


Some long range (25-75 yards) accuracy videos by hickok45 using a short-barrel subcompact! He should say, "Son, that's how you do it" at the end of the videos. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqIhmu9Fuk&feature=PlayList&p=7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A709ZuVqafY&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1

G27 at 230 yards off hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEg4y54Dk&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1

buck460XVR
February 21, 2010, 11:37 AM
Sometimes, some folks are better than others at some things, regardless of amount of effort and practice. The good Lord has blessed us all with certain talents and altho everybody is good at something, no one is good at everything. Although I shoot many more rounds a year than he does and have shot handguns for 40 years longer, my 17 year old son can still outshoot me double action with most of my revolvers. He also beats me down everytime we shoot Sporting Clays. I blame it on my eyesight, he claims I'm just old. But when the dog puts up a rooster, I'm the one who generally gets the last laugh.

nitetrane98
February 21, 2010, 01:04 PM
The truth is that most guns are mechanically capable of grouping far better than most shooters can do. That must lead to the conclusion that most bullets strike within the those parameters each time they are fired, which is to say they shoot where they are aimed.

To produce good groups at any range requires that the sights be in the exact same spot each time the trigger is pulled. In my case, if I am trying for the smallest group possible I have to make myself be patient enough to wait until the sight is where it has to be. Everybody gets the shakes and I'm a great believer in the "surprise" hammer fall but in the end you have to consciously make the hammer fall. That is where the dry firing practice comes into play. It's to know exactly when the hammer is going to fall with one more ounce of pull. If your sights aren't where they need to be, don't make the hammer fall. Again, for me there seems to be a small window of opportunity when the gun comes up and I find the sight picture I want. The longer I wait to pull the trigger the more the shakes are likely to increase to the point to where I'm just guessing where the bullet will strike. I find it better to stop and bring the gun back down, take a deep breath and try again.
Really good accuracy takes your best concentration. Sometimes I'm simply not up to it mentally. As Yogi would say, "It's 90% half mental."

nitetrane98
February 21, 2010, 01:13 PM
If you are happy with your groups at 7 yds, next time shoot at eight yards. Do not move back to 9 yds until you are happy at 8 and so on. When I found out how bad I was I started at 3 yrds. For me when I could cover 10 shots with a Copenhagen can I moved back one yard. It took many, many stings of fire to get backed up but it worked.
I can see this helping. Kinda reminds me of the guy who was going to lift the day old calf every day figuring he could lift it when it was full grown.:D

armoredman
February 21, 2010, 01:19 PM
Like this, Mr Whimsy? Kadet Kit on PCR. Love 22lr stuff.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/Kadet%20Kit/021.jpg

vaupet
February 21, 2010, 04:13 PM
if you are realy interested in the olympic style pistol training, here you can find the US army manual (94 pages).
Olympic style is standing with one hand. "10" is about 1 inch at 25 metres, calier is 22lr or 32 s&w

Peter

http://www.ronnynilsen.net/Shooting/TrainingGuide/

Confederate
February 21, 2010, 04:22 PM
To a large degree, I'm the same way. At 100 yards, I can't get near a clay pigeon with a centerfire auto. I can break them frequently with my .357, and have even done it more often than I thought with a 2.75-incher. I can shoot all day with a Sig or S&W 9mm and can't get near them.

My suggestion is to crank your target out to 25 yards and concentrate on one-shot groups, then two-shot and so forth until you can print decent 5-shot groups. Then, if that doesn't work, close your eyes and just empty the magazine.

armoredman
February 21, 2010, 06:39 PM
Spray and pray! Something will eventually get there. :)
I did hit a target at 200 yards with my 4 inch Model 10, but I had to walk them in like artillery...

cjl8651
February 21, 2010, 08:06 PM
If it makes you feel any better, I'm a crap shot even at 5 yards. I'd post up a picture of one of my targets, but nobody would believe I was firing a SIG P226, because it looks like I took a few shots with a sawed-off shotgun.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
February 21, 2010, 08:56 PM
25 yd 10 shots one hand un-supported. Not mine, but a friends.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/Untitled33.jpg

w_houle
February 21, 2010, 09:08 PM
At 25 yards my group size ranges from a bulk falling in the range of 8" to adding the myriad of flyers to about a foot.

Ky Larry
February 21, 2010, 09:26 PM
Went to the range this a.m. Seated, shooting off sand bags with .38spl 158gr LSWC reloads, my 6" Python did the 50yrd pop can dance. Standing, shooting off hand, I can consistently hit a pop can at 15-20yrds. An older gentleman there was doing the same thing with a S&W Model 28 and reloaded lead ammo.

ms6852
February 22, 2010, 02:39 AM
Dry firirng is a great way to practice also. I have my sister practice with her 9mm auto by drawing a circle on a blank sheet of paper. I than have her insert a pencil with the eraser tip inside the barrel. I have her pull the hammer back aim at the circle with the pencil tip about 2" away from the circle. She does this several times and is surprised that the pencil marks are all over the place. This helps in muscle strength and stamina, and memory, trigger control, and breathing, and sight picture memory as well.

smoking357
February 22, 2010, 02:44 AM
I practiced at 50 yards, today, one-handed.

At 25 yards, a decent 6" .38 revolver should see you hitting the 9 ring consistently.

smoking357
February 22, 2010, 02:56 AM
Here's my 25-yard target from today. This was shot one-handed, bullseye style. The ones on the left are sighters - seriously. I hadn't shot this gun since I put it together, so I had to play with the sights. I gave some thought to bringing the group up a couple clicks, then gave up, since I was just having fun blasting away. The average has to be above 90%, and that makes me feel good. It's no 2620, but so what? I was using the really cheap Winchester 555 stuff.

http://xs.to/image-C5A2_4B82298F.jpg

If you want to get good at target shooting, stop by www.targettalk.org and http://shell.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/

smoking357
February 22, 2010, 03:03 AM
25 yd 10 shots one hand un-supported. Not mine, but a friends.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/Untitled33.jpg

Is your friend Brian Zins?

Seriously, he shot a 100 (10X)? What's his/her classification? Does he/she/it rip this off consistently?

S&Wfan
February 22, 2010, 06:07 AM
I'll use an inch x 10 yards in this analogy:

If you shoot a 1" group at ten yards, the same group at twenty yards = 2" and at 30 yards it should be 3" and so on. Thus, a 25 yard group would = 2 1/2."

This means . . . IF YOU KNOW THE RAINBOW . . . you should be able to arc the bullets into a 10 inch group at 100 yards . . . and an 20" group at 200 yards.

OTOH . . . a 2" group at ten yards = 5" at 25 yards, 20" at 100 and you'd need to know the trajectory and hold over to hit a 4' x 4' plywood sheet with the group at 200 yards.


Here's the results of the (basically) same size group ratio, standing/unsupported, from a Model 36 S&W snubbie I own. I make my own black square targets to use at the popular distances in the ratio described above.

Thus, the 1" black squares at 10 yards, 2 1/2" squares to use at 25 yards and 5" squares when shooting at 50 yards. BTW, I insist in shooting FIVE shot groups for accuracy from any handgun. Three is not going to give you a true picture of how you are shooting with that gun, IMHO:

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/277718/2216021M36at10yds.b.jpg
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/277718/2217494148gn.wadcutterat25yds-shootslow.jpg

Another handgun using 1" black squares @ ten yards:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/277718/2216017M25-2.jpg

And from my .44 Magnum at 50 yards (btw, I keep this hunting revolver zero'ed at 75 yards, thus the slightly high group at 50). Although I couldn't see the hit while shooting it, I knew I pulled one shot low, and thus I fired a sixth shot instead of five when shooting this revolver to verify it was ready for the field that day. BTW, this fine revolver is topped with a Holosight red dot sight, and is thus capable of tighter groups than I can expect with factory iron sights like the other handguns utilize in these examples. This gun thus shoots 2" groups/supported @ 50 yards and 8" groups at 200yds at the range. Just aim 34" high and you can sail milk jugs at that distance . . . but it is simply hitting a >8" sized gallon jug with that 8" shot group. Not that difficult once you know the "rainbow" . . . but impossible if you don't know the trajectory:

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/282194/2278593M29freestandingtarget081807-edit2.jpg


BTW, group sizes WILL vary . . . based on individual shooters, but over time one can learn what their group size is and . . . through serious practice we can all strive to do better. Also, fine instruction can truly tighten the groups up of shooters who cannot consistently group the same size and PATTERN of groups!

Hope this helps . . .

Deanimator
February 22, 2010, 12:13 PM
Apart from learning the basics, practice is the most important part.

When I wanted to improve my handgun skills I started shooting upwards of three times a week. I made a lot of progress fast.

People routinely shoot at 50 yards in NRA Conventional Pistol competition. And that's one handed. Excellence in Competition (Service Pistol) requires iron sights.

Barring physical handicaps, you can do it, at least to a minimal level.

Get yourself a copy of the Army Marksmanship Training Unit manual on pistol shooting.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
February 22, 2010, 12:17 PM
No, This was shot last year at Friendship Indiana. I shot in the same relay
next to Mike L. who shot this. It was in competition. Won 1st. Oh, must tell
you this was a Black Powder National shoot. Mike is 62 and yes he shoots
pertty much like this most of the time. Mike is a "High Master" class shooter.

Ben86
February 22, 2010, 12:21 PM
OP, the answer to your problem is that you've only been shooting for a few years. It takes several years to master pistol shooting and get tiny groups at 25 yards. Pistol shooting is a simple skill, but the execution of it is difficult.

I've only been shooting for about 4 years and have just started to be able to plant 3" groups on target at 25 yards. What made a huge difference for me was greater emphasis on a straight, non jerky trigger pull. This made a profound difference in my accuracy. My dry practice with snap caps has taken away my flinch and perfected my trigger pull and follow through.

As far as stance and grip, what works best for me is moderate pressure and the isosceles stance minus the wide foot placement. I extend both arms about 90%, lean in a bit, and get much better accuracy than with the weaver.

Just hang in there it takes a lot of practice.

solvability
February 22, 2010, 12:29 PM
I enjoy shooting IDPA and have progressed as a pistol shooter in the past 5 years. I am not a bullseye shooter by any means.

My best practice is on steel.

I setup 4", 6" and Torso targets out to 50 yards and practice making good hits then when I am at a match the typical 20 yd shots are easy as pie.

My thought is why are you practicing - for target or for a practical purpose - I put practical accuracy at speed over paper accuracy.

What you want may be entirely different.

I like steel - I know if I hit or don't and I can practice in a drizzle and not change targets. IMHO a real good investment.

Ben86
February 22, 2010, 12:31 PM
Do you have to use frangible ammo on steel targets? Every label says no fmj, what's up with that?

jollyroger
February 22, 2010, 01:20 PM
I've been a LEO instructor 18 years, and from what I've seen, a six inch group offhand at the 25 yard line with a stock pistol and ammo is pretty respectable. The problem with marginal shooters is almost always with recoil sensitivity, which cannot be addressed through a high volume of rounds (doing the same bad thing over and over) or dry firing (no recoil impulse.) The simple answer is ball and dummy drills (much easier with a revolver) where dummy rounds are intermixed with live rounds in random order unknown to the shooter. Feeling what you are doing with the gun when you hit a round that doesn't go off will allow you to "untrain" your subconcious from the flinching that kills your accuracy.

As noted, revolvers are easier because you just stuff three empties into the cylinder with three live rounds, spin, close and start shooting. Results usually come pretty quick.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
February 22, 2010, 01:41 PM
1.Get a Ruger or Browning .22 and several spare magazines.
2.Get 3 or 4 500 round bulk packs of ammo.
3.Use both hands.
4.Spend a long day at the range.

Trust me on this.

BCRider
February 22, 2010, 02:03 PM
To the OP, you didn't mention how old and how fit you are. At 56 myself and with decent overall fitness but not all that strong an upper body I find fatigue after a 1/2 hour of steady shooting is a big issue. I tend to shoot for 10 to 15 then take a short break. Pushups and holding weights at arms length regularly would likely help this aspect a lot. It's something I've just started in part for shooting but mostly just to keep age from gaining a toehold and dragging me down over the next 20 or more years.

Coffee is your enemy. I'm a one to two cup a day max sort and even then I definetly go for the decaf to suck on during the early morning drive to a match. If you're a multi cup a day sort then try to cut back or at least switch to decaf and see how much it smooths out your hold.

Vision is a big killer of accuracy and tight grouping if your own is on the edge. I'm borderline for wearing prescription glasses but I really notice the handicap when doing something demanding of sharp vision such as shooting for really tight accuracy. The local optometrist and I have played with some prescription options but so far with very mixed success. I got much tighter groups but they were positioned 5 inches to the left due to the lenses fooling my brain. So I gave up on that solution for now and just accept that with my eyeballs I won't be doing any Olympic match grade shooting.

Finally I do find that a feather light trigger really helps. But that's only a good option for range shooting. If you're also practicing for defense shooting then you want to stick with the heavier stock trigger pulls or near to them to avoid an "oopsie". There's a reason why match grade target pistols have trigger pulls rated in mere ounces. But it may not be realistic in your case on all your guns. It depends on where your own priorities are.

The only thing I can definetly say you're doing wrong from your own admission is snatching at the trigger. Work on a firm but not death grip hold and practice isolating your trigger finger movements from the rest of your fingers. You can do this without a gun by just making a loosely held fist over an imaginary grip and move your trigger finger smoothly back and forth. Practice doing this until ONLY your trigger finger moves. When shooting learn to pull back quickly but smoothly and go for a full follow through where you pull the trigger right to the rear stopping point and only release it after you can feel and know you pulled it fully. Going for a "full pull" in my case seemed to help me disconnect my expectation of a bang and the flinch that went with it. Do this with the .22 at first and then the center fire guns.

I got in a year and a half and my results pretty much mirror your own on average. On a good day at 17 yards, the max distance at my indoor range which is pretty much the only place I've really tried to do slow accuracy groups, I can manage to pull off 3 inch groups at 17 yards with the odd flyer or two out of 10 shots. But all of them would be within 6 inches in any event. Translating this to 25 yards makes it roughly a 4 inch group with the couple of flyers within the 8 inch ring. I can do this with concentration with my CZ Shadow and with my revolvers shooting .38's. With the .22 I can sometimes get the groups a shade smaller. As noted my biggest limiting factor is my eyesight.

It's not about accuracy shooting but when when practising for IPSC I'm really happy if I can keep 8 out of 10 shots in the A zone at about 10 to 12 yards. When I do this I mix up shooting DA/SA and SA/SA to get more practice with the dreaded first shot from the holster being DA for production class.

Mike OTDP
February 22, 2010, 02:36 PM
Back to the OP....

First, take the Ruger and either get yourself a Volquartsen trigger kit or just send the whole gun to Clark Custom Guns for a trigger job.

Second, do ALL practice with that gun. Shoot one-handed. Yes, I said one-handed. At 25 yards. Forget speed, shoot ONE, repeat ONE, shot. Then put the gun down. Regrasp, repeat.

Basic slow fire is the foundation on which all shooting skills are based. Master that, and everything else will come quickly.

Now, when shooting...focus on the sights. And ONLY on the sights. The target does not have to be sharp, the sights must be sharp. Press back on the trigger smoothly while focusing on the sights....it's kind of like walking and chewing gum, it takes a bit of practice.

Repeat. Repeat some more. Then go home, clear the gun, and dry-fire. When I was 14, I borrowed a revolver and dry-fired ~25 rounds/day...and by the time that I was 16, I had a solid competitive record.

S&Wfan
February 22, 2010, 10:09 PM
I picked up this LDA Para "bottom feeder" . . . always intrigued with the LDA trigger concept and wanted to check it out.

Here are a couple of 25 yards targets shot standing/unsupported with this gun right after I bought it.

Ten round standing/unsupported targets are always a challenge. Three shots? Easy! Five rounds into 2 1/2" - 3" is more challenging.

However, the gun was shooting pretty well so I decided to go for a ten. Naturally, there's always a shot or two out of ten that will spoil your group!

Ticked off, I shot the lower target next . . . and ALMOST pulled of a nice group on top of the 3" orange stick-on target.

Anyhow . . . some can shoot better, others worse I guess . . . but this size group is what I get with all my iron sighted handguns, except my Kel-Tec P32.

The key is never flinching, seeing the muzzle blast when the gun fires (which means you didn't blink or flinch), using excellent hand and finger technique and remaining focused on the front sight with a perfect sight picture around that front sight!!! That . . . and a hundred other tiny little things, of course.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/277718/2390131IMG0747e.jpg

RippinSVT
February 22, 2010, 10:23 PM
I do a lot of 50 and 100 yard steel plate shooting offhand, and it REALLY helps me shoot up close, say 10 or 25 yards. I routinely hit my 10" gong at 100 yards about 60% of the time with my revolvers. When I start shooting my 25 yard groups, I'll put 80%+ of my shots into 2-3" with the occasionally flier.

huntsman
February 22, 2010, 10:28 PM
1) I use paper plates as my targets. A 9" paper plate gives a good approximation of the kill zone on a human or a white-tail deer. If you can keep all rounds in that plate at what ever your given distance, you have sufficient functional accuracy.


+100

SaxonPig
February 23, 2010, 12:55 AM
" 25 yard accuracy with a pistol seems impossible..."

Now, I wouldn't say that. I am a fairly poor shooter but even I can occasionally put a decent group together, even with some vintage revolvers.

Maybe not match grade accuracy, but good enough for my purposes.

1955 44 Special
http://www.fototime.com/B9FFF6CEDCD0E50/standard.jpg


1938 S&W with full power Magnum ammo.
http://www.fototime.com/6E233DC6AF3FD86/standard.jpg


6" Python with full power 357 ammo.
http://www.fototime.com/AB7CECF844113D3/standard.jpg

BCRider
February 23, 2010, 01:04 AM
SP, you're being overly modest or yanking our legs :D. From all I've seen the last year and a half that's darn fine 25 yard shooting by any standard. If you can pull that off with any degree of consistency then there's no way I'm in your league. I've managed the odd group here and there of your quality but it's a 1:20 occurance and I chalk it up to all my errors canceling each other out for one magazine or cylinder rather than actually any great moment of marksmanship brilliance that can be repeated on demand.

ROGER4314
February 23, 2010, 01:33 AM
I'm a fairly good pistol shot and used to be a lot better. The first suggestion I have is to stop using large targets. Use a bullet hole for a target or a 1" dot. The smaller the target, the better your accuracy will be.

Take a target and turn it around backwards. Put a 1" sticker or make a circle with a magic marker and use that as an aiming point.

If the distance you choose is too far away to be successful, then move closer. Start popping those tiny targets. When it gets easier, then move back a bit.

Stop shooting cans. A miss on a can will still bump it. Paper doesn't lie.

I echo the above comments about dry firing. One of my 1911A1's has been dry fired tens of thousands of times. There is a pistol to dry fire on the desk as I type this. I have black stickers on my door to use as aiming points. Take your shot (dry fired) and call the hit (high, low, left, etc).

Flash

SwampWolf
February 23, 2010, 06:39 AM
The standard Bullseye course of fire includes ten shots slowfire @ 50 yards; ten shots timed fire (five shots in twenty seconds) @ 25 yards and ten shots rapid fire (five shots in ten seconds) @ 25 yards. The following stages (thirty shots slow fire, timed fire and rapid fire each) are mandatory: .22 rimfire stage; the centerfire stage (usually fired with the .38 Special or the .45ACP) and the .45ACP stage. All shooting is done standing, using one (unsupported) hand and many of us rely on iron sights. Any decent, serious Bullseye shooter would be disappointed if less than half of his shots didn't fall in the "black" and many keep almost all of them in the black.

I consider Bullseye one of the most difficult shooting disciplines to excel in there is. However, almost anybody can eventually shoot respectable scores with plenty of practice and strict attention given to the basics of pistol shooting: acquiring a proper stance, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, breath control and maintaining a consistent follow-through. By adhering to the fundamentals and shooting often but deliberately (that is, assessing your shots- "calling" them- and working to correct bad ones as you go along), including lots of dry-firing, will make "25 yard accuracy with a pistol" not only possible, but probable. Good luck with your shooting!

Macchina
February 23, 2010, 07:45 AM
I am 25 and in good shape.

This is all helping a lot to read through this thread every day. I guess it's also helping me realize my shooting below average, but not too far below at all.

I think I'll wait for the weather to warm up a bit (loading mags in 25 degree weather gets difficult after a few) and shoot my Ruger more. I'll try some dry firing in the mean time.

MCgunner
February 23, 2010, 08:12 AM
I read gun mags when they review a gun I am interested in and always notice the groups are ridiculous numbers in the 1.5-2" range freehand at 25 yards

No way unless the guy is an Olympic shooter and shooting his target pistol. I'd summit that any such group in a gun test is a benched group to test the accuracy of the gun. Most zines either rest the gun on bags or preferably in a machine rest to test a gun for accuracy, take human error out of it. You cannot possibly quantify a gun's accuracy any other way. That's why when someone says how accurate their gun is because they can shoot 4" at 10 yards off hand with it, that tells me zilch, absolutely nothing about the handgun especially as I don't know how good a shooter they are.

Handgun shooting is about trigger control, concentration on the front sight, follow through, letting the sear break on its own. I mean, it's not unlike marksmanship with a rifle in this regard. If you're a decent rifle shot, you'll understand how to not anticipate the shot, to let the sear break. My Ruger .22 is my most accurate and most fun plinker.

Now, DA shooting is a bit of another story, but the principles of smooth trigger control still apply and not anticipating the shot.

MCgunner
February 23, 2010, 08:25 AM
BTW, a goal, in my experience, an average good shooter with a good gun can shoot 4" at 25 yards pretty consistently if he hasn't overdosed on coffee. :D Better shooters can shoot better, but that's just sort of your average good shooter and it is an attainable goal IMHO. As I age, I can still do that and a bit better with optics so I can actually focus without worry of which lens in my friggin', frackin' glasses I'm using. I'm no bullseye shooter. Some of those guys are human machine rests. :D

Damon555
February 23, 2010, 05:17 PM
I just takes practice......and remember, front sight, front sight, front sight.

Here is a video I took of some informal shooting @ 25 yards......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfju3HNzapM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/edlafond/DSC_2131.jpg

Here's a 50 yard target shot with the kimber. I did miss the paper once.......As for shooting at 7 yards, their all stacked on top of each other. I don't bother. Just shoot a lot if you can.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/edlafond/50yards.jpg

NMGonzo
February 23, 2010, 05:37 PM
I cannot see the bullseye at 25 ...

I can hit my 8 inch metal plate at a 100 though

JoeSlomo
February 23, 2010, 07:25 PM
Slow aimed fire is my nemesis as well.

What helps me tighten up the groups is ALOT of dry fire, a deliberate attempt to maintaining a proper mental state, and to run through a mental checklist of the fundamentals prior to EACH round fired.

I treat it almost like a pilots checklist prior to take off.

1. Stance: Balanced, weight forward to absorb recoil. CHECK.
2. Grip: Gun properly positioned in hand, firm grip, good arm extension. CHECK.
3. Aiming: Front sight focus. Good sight alignment. Good sight picture. CHECK.
4. Breathing: natural respiratory pause. CHECK.
5. Trigger control: Use the part of the finger that gives you the best leverage to squeeze the trigger straight back. Take up slack. Slowly squeeze through the break. Follow through. CHECK.
6. Follow through: Call the shot. Watch the sight lift and return. Reset the trigger. Maintain a conscience effort to maintain the fundamentals during and after the shot breaks.

I run through the checklist using dry fire prior to live fire. Than I'll mix dry fire with single live rounds, and if I am putting the rounds where I want them, I do some straight up live fire for groups.

I find that this process helps me identify and correct fundamental errors, and it allows me to maintain a calm and focused mindset. This helps me tighten up my groups, and gives me the confidence and skill I need to be able to keep rounds on the heads of USPSA and IDPA targets at 25M, and 8" plates as well.

Shooting at range pays off up close in that it allows you to see the effects of fundamental errors that degrade accuracy, and when corrected, enhance your accuracy up close as well.

Keep at it, you'll get the hang of it with enough practice.

testosterone
February 23, 2010, 08:49 PM
i shoot in a pistol bullseye league during the summer, the targets are at 25 yards.

I personally am dreadful at it...but there are several guys there that shoot score 95+ on every 10 shot string.

I am embarrassed to shoot next them, but I will attest that it is doable.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
February 23, 2010, 09:22 PM
I was 66 last year and I shot a 99 in National competition. If you score it by
modern rules, it would score a 100. Wife shot a 100 and 7X's her best. This
was Black Powder matches, but we use NRA standard pistol targets. Still hard.
At 50 yds, our record is a 98. That's on a NRA pistol target.

MrWesson
February 24, 2010, 12:26 AM
I had the same problem as you when I first started shooting 25 yards seemed so far. The range I shoot at is outdoor and the stands are 25 yards so unless you make and bring your own thats where your shooting. I never really got accurate until I bought a decent .22 pistol and started shooting it at 100yds. It really helped notice my mistakes and correct them.

welldoya
February 24, 2010, 12:44 AM
This thread makes me feel better. I was beginning to think it was just me that couldn't put them all into a 1.5" group. After seeing some of the targets, maybe I'm an average shooter after all.

sqroot3
February 24, 2010, 03:53 AM
this thread has convinced me that although i shoot handguns way more than any of my friends, i am still way below average. :)

wilson brags that the cqb's precision is 1" at 25yd. i guess handgun owners don't talk about MOAs all that often, but that is about 4 MOA. some shooters on this thread therefore approach the intrinsic precision of at least one very well-made handgun...that's damn impressive.

Drail
February 24, 2010, 10:12 AM
Some of you guys need to get out more. Go watch a Metallic Silhouette match with targets at 200 meters. 25 yards is child's play.

testosterone
February 24, 2010, 01:51 PM
Some of you guys need to get out more. Go watch a Metallic Silhouette match with targets at 200 meters. 25 yards is child's play.

indeed, it is easy to fall into.

The vast majority of folks are shooting man size target at 7-15 yards and getting some A zone hits and thinking they are doing good.

And it's not that it's bad, it is just accurate enough at that range, combat accurate if you will.

I never had a sense that I was any kind of even moderate shot with a pistol, then I started going to local bullseye matches(25 yards) and realized I was pathetically inept with a pistol from a pure marksmanship point of view.

Drail
February 24, 2010, 06:26 PM
Not to bash anyone on this forum but I have seen a lot of guys start out with a handgun and work at 5 to 7 yards until they can get a nice group and that is as it should be. Once you reach that point you must start moving back further and further repeating the process and learning the finer points of sighting and hold. Ideally you will start to become proficient at any range out to 50 yards - it's really not that difficult if you simply pay attention to what you are doing. Take your time and don't get tense - relax and let the gun fire when the sight picture is in that tiny zone of acceptibility. Eventually you will be able to call exactly where the shot landed just from what you saw on the sights before you walk down and look at the target.

thales
February 24, 2010, 09:05 PM
The 10 ring of the official B8 target is about 2 1/2 inches. That target is used for timed and rapid fire at 25 yards. So if you can get 10 shots into 2 1/2 inches at 25 yards, you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of except perhaps your tendency to exaggerate. Perfect scores at that game happen occasionally but are not common.

Of course I can shoot .38 inch groups at 50 yards all day long, as long as the groups are just one shot.

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