Reason for owning?


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halfded
February 20, 2010, 04:43 PM
I was perusing the ATF's "fun forms" (1 and 4) and there is a section on form 4 that says "I have a reasonable necessity to own 'insert fun item here' for the following reasons" and then there's a blank.

Similarly, there is a section on Form 1 that asks the reason for building the applied for firearm.

Just wondering what an acceptable answer would be to a question like that. I know it's probably a bad idea to write "because I can" or "I like guns ALOT" or something. I'm guessing listing collection as a reason might pass unser the radar.

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GaryG
February 20, 2010, 05:49 PM
I've said, "Investment and Collection" on my 6 Form 4s . . never had a problem.

lions
February 20, 2010, 07:37 PM
I was told by my dealer to put "personal collection and investment". He said that is one reason that they have never seen denied.

Gord
February 20, 2010, 08:04 PM
Heh... if I'm ever loaded enough to apply for a MG stamp I'm going to try the "because I can" line. If they approved it I'd probably frame it and hang it on my wall.

Aaron Baker
February 20, 2010, 09:28 PM
I think "all lawful purposes" is a popular reason on Form 1's. I believe that may be what I used.

To be honest, I don't have any idea how much the ATF cares about that section. Unless you just put something idiotic there, I can't imagine that it makes the difference between approval and disapproval of a tax stamp. In fact, I could imagine a pretty good lawsuit if you got disapproved for any reasonable response to that question.

It is a tax thing, after all. If there was a tax on wheat that you had to voluntarily pay if you wanted to own wheat, can you imagine them asking why and discriminating based on the response?

You don't ever have to explain to the IRS why you'd like to pay taxes on your income. You don't have to justify the need for a Ferrari when you go to pay your taxes on it at the local DMV.

If the NFA laws were something other than a tax act, then maybe they'd be able to insist on a good reason. In my view, it's like the difference between shall-issue and may-issue concealed carry permits. If you don't pass a background check and pay a fee, you can be denied a CCW even in shall-issue state. But if it's shall-issue, you don't have to have a good reason to want it.

Aaron

PTK
February 20, 2010, 11:28 PM
"All Lawful Purposes" on all of my F1s and F4s.

mp510
February 20, 2010, 11:28 PM
"All lawful purposes" is a good, all encompassing answer, unless your local laws have more stringent requirements. For example, the only acceptable reason for North Carolinians to obtain (or make) short barreled firearms or suppressors is R&D or scientific research. Basically, your answer has to be a lawful activity- "to whack the dang dog next door" WILL be rejected. Some cutsie answers are acceptable (like J. Pratt's "Chicks dig short barrels"). Some forms referring to zombies have also been approved, though some examiners are appropriately kicking those applications back know because zombies don't really exist, thus the person can't honestly want the firearm for anti-zombie uses.

halfded
February 20, 2010, 11:36 PM
If I was to apply for a suppressor, think they would accept "hearing protection" as an answer?

garyhan
February 21, 2010, 02:22 AM
It is my understanding that they aren't too picky as long as the answer isn't flippant. "All lawful purposes" works, as does "to enhance my collection". A guy on the silencer talk board was recently delayed permission for a short barrel rifle when he gave as a reason "chicks dig sbr's". Don't count on federal employees to share your sense of humor.

gary

WoofersInc
February 21, 2010, 01:11 PM
I saw that form. I personally use "for collecting and recreation"

The form that got kicked back for Chicks dig SBR's is funny. That has actually been used and approved before. Some on that board have put in some wild reasopns and have gotten the forms back approved.
One that I saw was "for when the zombies come"


It all comes down to who the examiner is and what type of day they are having.

CleverNickname
February 21, 2010, 03:25 PM
As long as the reason given didn't state or imply an illegal reason (for example, "disappointed with recent election results" would probably be a bad reason to use) then it should be approved. But don't get cute, just put "all lawful purposes" and go on with your life.

freakshow10mm
February 21, 2010, 03:50 PM
Saw a form 4 with "zombies" as the reason. Approved.

Ranb
February 21, 2010, 04:13 PM
I use "enhance firearm collection".

Ranb

forindooruseonly
February 21, 2010, 05:55 PM
I've always used the "Investment and collection" approach and have never had a problem.

Tim Pierce
February 22, 2010, 08:03 AM
I used "All legal & lawful purposes".

jmorris
February 22, 2010, 08:46 AM
My dealer prints “All legal purposes” on the form 4’s. All of my form 1’s I used “Asset to the Trust”.

CoRoMo
February 22, 2010, 09:43 AM
Saw a form 4 with "zombies" as the reason. Approved.

That's good!

I have to believe that over the years, there have been forms with "because I can", or "just because" as reasoning. But I wonder how far it has been pushed. Wonder if anyone ever used the word 'tyranny' or simply wrote "Shut up! That's why!".:D

Bubbles
February 22, 2010, 10:03 AM
Actually it was a Form 1 SBR.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ZombiesForm1.jpg

freakshow10mm
February 22, 2010, 11:00 AM
The form I saw was a form 4. The guy lives two miles away from me. I did the transfer. Thanks.

PTK
February 22, 2010, 12:53 PM
Yeah, there have been loads of funny reasons on F1s and F4s.

hhmorant
February 22, 2010, 06:12 PM
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4341/zombiesbsz.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/zombiesbsz.jpg/)

Big44mag
February 22, 2010, 06:29 PM
Some people tend to stay away from "Investment", if you buy something as an investment then you are showing intent to sell at a later date for profit which you can't do without a license when it comes to certain items. Some also stay away from "All Legal Purposes" because of the possibility of a current law being reworded or a new law imposed that "legal purposes" have no "defined" purpose therefore being unnecessary and the item in question would be required to be turned in. I guess some people are paranoid but when "Zombies" and "Chicks Dig SBRs" used to pass and now sometimes don't, I guess you have to ask yourself one question "Do I Feel Lucky?".

Concerning most SBRs and SBSGs though, if something happened to where you had to relinquish your "item", you could just pull the upper and strip the receiver, then you'd only be out a few hundred $$.

Personally I like "Enhance Collection", that pretty much covers you.

Big44mag
February 22, 2010, 06:31 PM
hhmorant,

Nancy Flanigan huh? Had a couple of talks with her, congrats on the SBSG.

freakshow10mm
February 22, 2010, 07:45 PM
Me too. She's my inspector as well.

Zach S
February 23, 2010, 03:51 PM
Some people tend to stay away from "Investment", if you buy something as an investment then you are showing intent to sell at a later date for profit which you can't do without a license when it comes to certain items.
AFAIK, the only thing you cant sell is a 10% or 80% receiver that you finished. If you can buy it, you can sell it later for a profit.

In NC, NFA items can be sold FTF. Of course, the seller has to hold onto the item until the buyer gets his form 4.

PTK
February 23, 2010, 05:56 PM
No, of course you can sell a home-made firearm (a completed N% receiver falls into that category)

You just can't be building it with the intent of selling it.

Arkady
February 23, 2010, 10:12 PM
If I was to apply for a suppressor, think they would accept "hearing protection" as an answer?

Yes. I've seen several approved forms with 'hearing protection' listed.

Also, there is a guy on Ar15.com that has an approved form with "****s and giggles" listed on it.

But... I use "All Lawful Purposes"

hhmorant
February 24, 2010, 03:35 PM
hhmorant,

Nancy Flanigan huh? Had a couple of talks with her, congrats on the SBSG.

Sorry, not mine - I saw the pic on another forum.

I'm looking into an AR-15 SBR some time this year, but I doubt I'd chance someone having a sense of humor.

KAK
February 24, 2010, 03:45 PM
Well I would only do the form for a suppressor or sbs. an SBR just neuters a cartridge, I know they are cool but the $200 aint worth it for that to me.

LiquidTension
February 24, 2010, 05:15 PM
I've used "all lawful purposes" on the last two I did. My first one says "quiet target practice and to enhance collection" or something very close.

an SBR just neuters a cartridge

While still packing more power than a handgun, and also making the gun more maneuverable indoors. I'll take the tradeoff.

Ranb
February 24, 2010, 06:03 PM
Well I would only do the form for a suppressor or sbs. an SBR just neuters a cartridge, I know they are cool but the $200 aint worth it for that to me

An SBR for a pistol cartrdige can be a great help in the accuracy and power department. I like the 9mm and 45 acp carbines and SBR's.

Ranb

LS240
February 24, 2010, 08:34 PM
"All lawful purposes" is a good, all encompassing answer, unless your local laws have more stringent requirements. For example, the only acceptable reason for North Carolinians to obtain (or make) short barreled firearms or suppressors is R&D or scientific research. Basically, your answer has to be a lawful activity- "to whack the dang dog next door" WILL be rejected. Some cutsie answers are acceptable (like J. Pratt's "Chicks dig short barrels"). Some forms referring to zombies have also been approved, though some examiners are appropriately kicking those applications back know because zombies don't really exist, thus the person can't honestly want the firearm for anti-zombie uses.
I wonder how long it took the ATF to figure out zombies don't really exist?

Prince Yamato
February 25, 2010, 01:23 AM
"All Lawful Purposes" is probably the best response in case you ended up using your NFA item for self-defense. I personally like the funny reasons (Zombies, etc.), but if it ever went before a court on a serious matter, I might find my statement of purpose a little less funny.

Big44mag
February 25, 2010, 06:42 PM
I just said that some people shy away from "investment", gave the reason and said it pertained to certain items. I don't think I really need to go into details but you need to be careful when it comes to selling arms to make sure you aren't in violation.

If someone lost their job and sold a couple of NFA or even non NFA items to cover their mortgage, technically they are supporting themselves by selling arms which according to ATF you cannot do without a license.

You can put whatever you want on the form as long as it doesn't blatantly violate the law. Whether it gets flagged or not will depend on the examiner and what kind of day they are having.

Aaron Baker
February 25, 2010, 11:45 PM
I would like to see a ruling from the ATF or even a law that says you can't "invest" in firearms. I absolutely think you can make a long-term investment in firearms. People do it all the time when they buy a nice rifle and keep it in pristine condition. That's what collectors are doing. And even if they don't ever sell them, they expect to pass along these valuables to their children.

Investment is not the same as being in the business of selling firearms. If you buy a lot of firearms, keep them for short periods of time and make money selling them to other people, then you're in the business of dealing firearms.

But if you buy a high dollar firearm, keep it for a while (years, decades, whatever) and then sell it because someone offers you money you can't turn down, or you are forced to sell it to pay for medical bills or rent, then you're not suddenly a firearms dealer.

I would argue that it doesn't matter what your intent is when you sell the firearm. It matters what your intent is when you BUY the firearm. So if you buy a gun (or guns) because you intend to resell it (or them), then you're a firearms dealer and need a license. But if you buy a gun because you think it will appreciate in value down the road, then you're just a collector/investor and you don't need a license. And if you never intended to sell it, but are forced because you can't afford rent, then it doesn't matter why you're selling it. If I have to sell my car to pay rent, I'm not suddenly a car dealer, am I?

Obviously the ATF takes weird positions on things. I'd like to see some documentation from the ATF that selling firearms that were "investments" or because you need the rent money somehow makes you a firearms dealer.

There is a separate issue that you have to take into account when dealing with NFA items. And that's the trust route for approval. If you form a trust with beneficiaries, then any property in that trust is generally supposed to be held for the benefit of those beneficiaries. You've got to be careful when creating the trust to allow the trustees to use the item. Using a firearm usually reduces its value, so you'd be acting to the detriment of the beneficiaries by depreciating the value of the trust property. There's ways around that when forming a trust.

What is interesting is that a trust applying for a tax stamp IS investing in firearms. That's the purpose of a trust. So I would think if you go the trust route, that'd be the most honest, legally-true answer. But it's different than other firearms purchases, because it isn't an investment for the trustee, who keeps and uses the item, but for the beneficiary, who has to be a different person.

Aaron

Mr.Davis
February 26, 2010, 04:42 PM
Zombies seem to be a legitimate purpose.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx297/tdavis021484/form1.jpg

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