.308 Battle Rifle Poll


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spartanpride
February 20, 2010, 08:13 PM
I don't know how to make a poll so this will have to work.

If you were to get a battle rifle chambered in .308, and you are looking for accuracy, reliability, and ease of finding spare parts etc., which one of these would you pick?

A) Quality HK 91 build
B) M1A
C) FAL
D) AR-10

All input is greatly appreciated! :)

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MCgunner
February 20, 2010, 08:17 PM
None of the above.....Remington M40 Sniper Rifle....

http://www.snipercentral.com/images/m40a1no2.jpg

XD9GUY
February 20, 2010, 08:21 PM
M1A any day (Match grade of course)

Al LaVodka
February 20, 2010, 08:21 PM
With THAT priority? M1A pretty clearly.
Al

billfrombyron
February 20, 2010, 08:27 PM
AR-10, but thats just me.

Parts are there and the cost is lower. Drastically so if you build your own.

-Bill

DMK
February 20, 2010, 08:27 PM
Saiga 308

Geno
February 20, 2010, 08:27 PM
I'd also have to say a bolt-action in .308 Win. (Remington M700, Winchester M70, even Weatherby Vanguard...lot's of options!)

Geno

Big Bill
February 20, 2010, 08:35 PM
M1A definately...

sprice
February 20, 2010, 08:38 PM
my choice is fal- but for the things you have posted ar-10 or better yet ar-10 with a gas piston

desidog
February 20, 2010, 08:47 PM
I have an M1A and a Saiga....yeah, the M1a is more accurate. However, in any type of fight in which i'm not connected to a unit, a chain of intel and fire support i'd take the Saiga. Why? Well, I wouldn't be on the offensive all by my lonesome. I'd be escaping and evading, and the Saiga is lighter.

Still, given said situation I'd prefer a semi auto .22lr: lighter gun, lighter ammo, and a whole lot quieter...

Vicious-Peanut
February 20, 2010, 09:09 PM
For accuracy? M1A.

For everything else? FAL.

Mags
February 20, 2010, 09:15 PM
AR-10
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/hossdelgado/100_0806.jpg

fragout
February 20, 2010, 09:18 PM
Reliability and accuracy = M1A across the board, and without hesitation. (Wood or synthetic)
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/HPIM0680.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/IMG_0156.jpg
11B

surfinUSA
February 20, 2010, 10:25 PM
FAL or its inch equivilent the L1A1.

eddism
February 20, 2010, 10:32 PM
Tactical Rifle built M852. USMC M40A1 spec. quarter-minute rifle.

Hatterasguy
February 20, 2010, 10:46 PM
FAL, its nickname is only "the right arm of the free world".:D

spartanpride
February 20, 2010, 10:52 PM
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the M852 a 168 grain bullet used IN the M40A1 that the military uses in competition only now because some guy behind a desk says hollow points cause "unnecessary suffering"?
Anyway thanks for all the replies folks!

Greg Bell
February 20, 2010, 10:54 PM
HK91.

1. This rifle was designed by engineers who were building on the experience of the Eastern Front of WWII. In other words, this rifle is bomb proof (considering the context, maybe even atomic bombproof). Battle rifles do not get any more durable.

2. Parts are dirt-cheap right now. Mags are even cheaper.

3. Accuracy. The HK91 and the FAL both have triggers that were designed to be dropped from aircraft--unfortunately that means it is very heavy and long. Fortunately, there are numerous gunsmiths who can fix this. With an appropriate trigger, the HK is about as accurate as a semi-auto .308 gets short of specialized guns.

Z-Michigan
February 20, 2010, 11:07 PM
HK91.
1. This rifle was designed by engineers who were building on the experience of the Eastern Front of WWII. In other words, this rifle is bomb proof (considering the context, maybe even atomic bombproof). Battle rifles do not get any more durable.

Eh, no. The HK91 roller-delay mechanism was designed by engineers who accidentally discovered that the roller-locking system on the MG42 wouldn't stay locked even without the gas piston activating it. Then they fled to fascist-tolerant Spain and turned it into the CETME, an oooooo-kkkk rifle that was adopted by something like two countries. Germany desperately wanted the FN-FAL and even bought some as G1's, but Belgium was still a little miffed about that whole Blitzkrieg and slaughter thing, so they wouldn't grant Germany a manufacturing license. German pride was enough to look elsewhere, and those engineers were allowed to come home and refine their oooo-kkkk CETME design into a slightly more ooo-kkk G3 design.

The G3/HK91 can be instantly disabled by the application, accidental or otherwise, of a fist sized rock to almost anywhere on the upper receiver. To me that isn't "bomb proof." The same really is not true of its major competition. And fine sand trips it up just like it trips up most rifles.

Spartanpride: I think a quality AR in .308 (AR-10, LAR-8, LR-308B, etc.) is likely to be the best match for what you want, especially in terms of accuracy and spare parts availability. For reliability I would look at the M1A or FAL, but the FAL isn't typically as accurate and the M1A requires fairly advanced gunsmithing skills as well as fairly expensive parts if anything breaks (which isn't all that common, fortunately).

blitzen
February 20, 2010, 11:13 PM
Given your sort of vague parameters. In this country, I'd opt for the M1A. Followed by a close second and not on your list and if not attached to at least a fireteam, a long range precision rifle.

Heljac
February 20, 2010, 11:13 PM
L1A1

Jaws
February 20, 2010, 11:18 PM
FAL/SLR for history alone. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/attachment.jpg

spartanpride
February 20, 2010, 11:18 PM
Does the length of the barrel on the M1A affect accuracy at all? Because 22 inches seems a little long for a battle rifle, but it seems like 16 inches is a little too short on one. Do they even make a 18 or 20 inch long barrel in a M1A?
BTW, I wouldn't plan on shooting anything past 500 or 600 yards.
Thanks again for all the comments.

Greg Bell
February 20, 2010, 11:20 PM
Z,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the G3 being the most durable. However, I am pleased to note that no less an expert than Larry Vickers thinks the G3 is the most rugged of the above choices.

Casefull
February 20, 2010, 11:38 PM
AR 10 style. Firepower and accuracy plus less weight than the others.

Z-Michigan
February 20, 2010, 11:39 PM
OP, barrel length primarily affects velocity, not accuracy. In fact shorter barrels are often more accurate, but it's a complicated subject. To answer your M1A question, an 18" barrel is available with the "Scout Squad" model, which gets terrific reviews from almost anyone who has one. The 16" SOCOM models do not get equally good reviews. IMHO 18" is a pretty good compromise length for a semiauto .308 rifle.

Greg, we'll agree to disagree. I've read Vickers' comments and I certainly don't have the experience he has. But it is quite well established that one dent in the stamped sheetmetal upper will hang up the carrier group and disable the gun at least temporarily. And, FWIW, Vickers ultimately comes out praising the FAL well above the others.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/battle-rifles/

I could also go on about the greater than He-Man cocking effort of the PTR-91 (HK91 clone), the difficulty in mounting a scope that makes mounting a scope on an FAL or M1A look like a breeze, the incredibly front-heavy weight distribution, the lack of a last-shot hold open, the horrible mag release on the neutered US-market models, the OEM furniture that would embarrass an Airsofter (at least on a PTR-91 with a fixed buttstock), the thumb safety that is perfectly sized for people with XXXXXXXXXL size hands*, the already mentioned heavy trigger pull, the tiny little pretend-match sights on a rifle that is basically a western AKM, etc. etc...

[*I wear an XL or 2XL men's glove - the thumb safety was still in a different zip code.]
And I'm a former owner, and mine actually functioned 100% unlike the ones I keep reading about recently.

fragout
February 20, 2010, 11:45 PM
spartanpride,

Barrel length in and of itself effects muzzle velocity. The M1A is a semiautomatic rifle, which equates to moving parts while firing. If the parts fit well/as should, then they will move while firing at a consistent rate, which will effect consistent shooting. Bedding the action is another way to make a given rifle more consistent. Barrel thickness usually will produce better accuracy , the thicker you go.
(Note: There is more to it, but would take alot of time to explain in detail, but hopefully you get the idea.)

An M1A standard,loaded,NM, SM, and M25 all sport 22in bbls, from the std weight on up to a heavy weight bbl. OAL = 44inches. The 2 M1A rifles I posted pics of earlier are both M1A Bush rifles with 18.5in std contour non chrome lined, 1/11in twist rate bbls.(note: A Scout is very similar to the Bush model with addition of scout mount, and a muzzle brake instead of flash hider) The Socom16/II rifles sport 16in tubes....

A comparison pic of all 3 lengths...
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/HPIM0660.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/DSCN0922.jpg
The rifle pictured above is a custom build M14 "Tanker", built off of an M14S Norinco receiver, and uses a Criterion 18.5in chrome line std contour bbl. Parts for the build were carefully selected and/or NIW, and the synthetic USGI stock was "fitted", to the action instead of fully bedded to cut down on the weight some, and keep it as reliable as possible. The OAL of this rifle is an inch shorter than a Bush or Scout model, due to the SEI Vortex DC flash hider in combination with the gas lock front sight. (Also does away with the whole castle nut "front end", which amounts to less little parts that can ..."go wrong".)

11B

garyhan
February 20, 2010, 11:48 PM
M1A. National Match grade.

gary

Greg Bell
February 21, 2010, 12:00 AM
Z,

I agree, Larry likes the FAL. But he acknowledges that the G3 is the most robust--which is what you took issue with.

As far as "greater than he-man" cocking effort. It is not the case on the Hk91, Springfield SAR-3,8 or any PTR I have shot or handled.

Scoping the M1A is most certainly not a breeze. The Springfield receivers are often out of spec, requiring a special set of pins to see exactly what scope mount you need. I spent a lot of time and hassle trying to scope my old Springfield Scout (with a quality mount, not cheap junk). I remember sitting around with the Sadlak pin kit, a micrometer and engineering drawings thinking something other than "this is a breeze."

Scoping the FAL is easier, but none of the options are particularly great. There is a reason that you saw the G3 and its progeny used as sniper weapons and the FAL not so much. The G3 is very easy to scope. The STANAG claw mounts are extraordinarily durable, and very easy to mount. And there are quite a few other aftermarket options, B&T, etc.

Z-Michigan
February 21, 2010, 12:07 AM
Barrel length in and of itself effects muzzle velocity. The M1A is a semiautomatic rifle, which equates to moving parts while firing. If the parts fit well/as should, then they will move while firing at a consistent rate, which will effect consistent shooting.

I've read many times about the US Ordnance Bureau tests showing that an M1 Garand op-rod didn't start moving until the bullet was something like 70 feet out of the muzzle. In any gas-operated gun the mechanism can't start moving until the bullet passes the gas port, and even though it has the potential to start moving at that point, the velocity of the gas, the need to build up pressure on the piston (or inside the carrier on an AR), and the inertia of the moving metal parts will all keep the bolt firmly locked, and any other movement imperceptible, until long after the bullet has departed.

Recoil and blowback guns are potentially a different story, but even with those the inertia of the bolt group parts is such that no significant movement occurs while the bullet is still in the barrel. Of course (*cough*) the roller delay mechanism, when applied to a high pressure cartridge like .308, is potentially the worst for this concern - but even with those parameters I'm not aware of it being an issue so long as the correct cam (locking piece) is used and the rollers are in spec.

However, any gas-piston design attaches some rigid pieces to the barrel, and that can mess up the barrel harmonics and affect accuracy. Hence the most accurate rifles available tend not to be gas piston designs - they are either bolt action guns with free floated barrels or AR-10/15 pattern guns where the thin little gas tube apparently has no real effect on barrel harmonics (based on how common and easy it is to make a sub-MOA AR type).

The other big variable is precision of locking. Generally speaking, rotary bolt mechanisms (AR, M1A) are more precise and repeatable than tilting or sliding mechanisms (FAL, SKS, sort of the G3). But every rule has its exception, and a good FAL or SKS can be much more accurate than a run of the mill AKM despite the latter's rotating bolt that functions just like an M1A bolt.

Carne Frio
February 21, 2010, 12:07 AM
I'll go with the H&K 91 that I have had and used since 1979.
It had a trigger job by Williams Trigger Specialties and is
accurate and reliable with reloads and surplus ammo.

GPWASR10
February 21, 2010, 12:14 AM
Lr-308.

Z-Michigan
February 21, 2010, 12:15 AM
I agree, Larry likes the FAL. But he acknowledges that the G3 is the most robust--which is what you took issue with.

I'm not reading strong endorsement of the G3 from his little article, but I guess we'd have to ask him to know for sure.

As far as "greater than he-man" cocking effort. It is not the case on the Hk91, Springfield SAR-3,8 or any PTR I have shot or handled.

All I can say is that my PTR-91 was purchased brand new, kept lubricated and never displayed any mechanical problems, and yet if you dropped the hammer on an empty chamber (i.e. dry fired) then the effort to cock the gun was enormous. I say this as someone of near linebacker size who does farming as a hobby and regularly carries 100lbs or more of stuff (hay, grain, farm implements) by hand. If I did 5 minutes of dry-firing practice with the PTR I would often have pain in my left wrist and shoulder for several days afterward. YMMV. I have not tried this with other PTRs or an HK, but I have read many reports of other people having the same issue with the design.

Scoping the M1A is most certainly not a breeze. The Springfield receivers are often out of spec, requiring a special set of pins to see exactly what scope mount you need. I spent a lot of time and hassle trying to scope my old Springfield Scout (with a quality mount, not cheap junk). I remember sitting around with the Sadlak pin kit, a micrometer and engineering drawings thinking something other than "this is a breeze."
Scoping the FAL is easier, but none of the options are particularly great. There is a reason that you saw the G3 and its progeny used as sniper weapons and the FAL not so much. The G3 is very easy to scope. The STANAG claw mounts are extraordinarily durable, and very easy to mount. And there are quite a few other aftermarket options, B&T, etc.

No argument on the issues with the M1A and FAL. If you want to scope, a flattop AR is so far beyond all other options that there's no real comparison. I had a personal experience with a scope mount on the PTR-91 I owned. The PTR supposedly has ultra-precise CNC cuts for the scope mount. Yeah, it didn't fit well. I suppose with an hour or two of filing and hand-fitting it might work, but did I mention the AR flattop?

By the way, who besides Germany has used the G3 as a sniper rifle?

rozziboy18
February 21, 2010, 12:22 AM
ar-10 hands down, the fal second both are great arms

Greg Bell
February 21, 2010, 12:26 AM
Z,

Larry adores the FAL. No doubt. He hates the G3's ergos. He says that the G3 doesn't start popping up on the top of his list until you are talking about doomsday conditions (which is what inspired my atomic Eastern Front reference).

Cocking effort.
think your gun was out of spec. The worst thing about cocking the G3 is how it can be annoying to get your fingers under the handle. After that, it shouldn't be a problem for anyone. And given your comments about other issues with your PTR (cheap furniture, out of spec scope rails) I am thinking you have (perfectly reasonably) formed a negative opinion based on your experience with an out-of-spec clone lemon.

Scoping.

On this we are in full agreement. The G3 is easier to scope than the FAL or M1A. But nothing beats the AR for ease of scoping. Of course, this is presuming we are talking about newer guns. The old fixed handle AR guns were miserable to scope. The Norwegians and Swedes, however, now weld Pic rails on their HKs so that they can mount current optics as easily as ARs. But those are obviously not available to civilians without custom gunsmithing.

spartanpride
February 21, 2010, 12:43 AM
Ok I was just thinking that a shorter barrel (ie a 16 or 18 inch rather than the 22 inch) would mess up barrel harmonics, but I guess not. That M1A scout model with the 18 inch barrel has really got me interested, as well as the AR-10. They seem like my best two choices. But also isn't the HK 91 bbl free-floated because the triple ring sight is soldered onto the cocking tube and floats around the barrel, because I don't believe the handguard touches the bbl either. Another con to the 91 is it's fluted chamber, which from what I hear weakens brass and reduces the amount of times it can be reloaded.

fragout
February 21, 2010, 12:58 AM
www.lrbarms.com

check out thier M25 receiver.

May be an option to some that are lookin for an "easier" way to mount optics to this kinda rifle, and is just as easy to do as an AR10 IMO.

I have also found that the chicom receivers (Norinco/Polytech) are gtg when it comes to using quality mounts such as SEI, Sadlak, and the ARMS#18....
Others milage may vary.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/fragout2000/DSCN0941.jpg
hopefully, this will give you an example of how an ARMS #18 should look like when mounted.

I have not had any scope mount issues with the few SAI rifles that I have, but I hear alot about others who do.

11B

fragout
February 21, 2010, 01:01 AM
Z-Michigan,you are correct. I could have worded that a little better.

GunsBeerFreedom
February 21, 2010, 01:11 AM
In order

Saiga
FAL
RFB

Welding Rod
February 21, 2010, 01:34 AM
As always;

For optics: AR

No optics: M1A

Expertowgunner
February 21, 2010, 08:21 AM
For me:
Scoped/dmr role:AR-10/sr-25 (yes ive been lucky enough to shoot the real sr-25)
Battle rifle:FAL hands down

Ive owned a ptr and while i liked it for its cheap parts, mags, and overall accuracy it had horrible ergos. As far as the m1a is concerned i think its one of the most overated 308 ebrs ever made (dear god what have i done, ive commited the ultimate sin). Heavy in standard format, notoriously hard to scope and KEEP zeroed, and for us civies mags are the most expensive out of all of them. Ive got 2 high school friends and both ended up either as a marine corp dmr and one is attached to the 101st in the army as a sniper. They both love their m24 and m40 and the bud in army loves his m110 (ar-10) but the marine kinda loves his m14 says as long as he keeps it zeroed it runs fine and army friend doesnt like it at all.

hiho
February 21, 2010, 09:37 AM
a shortened fal clone called DSA-58OSW

Zerodefect
February 21, 2010, 10:04 AM
AR-10 or better yet the LMT .308 $$$ or Larue OBR $$$$$. Got all the reliability bugs worked out and Magpul PMags for them now! I'm looking hard at an AR-10T. I'm hopeing the LMT .308 drops to $2000 even next year.....

The M1's I've handled were slow and heavy and broke alot. I'm a try it before I buy it guy, so I still don't have an M1 because of this. And how in the world do you get a decent scope setup on one??

Z-Michigan
February 21, 2010, 10:08 AM
Cocking effort.
think your gun was out of spec. The worst thing about cocking the G3 is how it can be annoying to get your fingers under the handle. After that, it shouldn't be a problem for anyone. And given your comments about other issues with your PTR (cheap furniture, out of spec scope rails) I am thinking you have (perfectly reasonably) formed a negative opinion based on your experience with an out-of-spec clone lemon.

I'll have to try out another G3 or PTR when I get a chance and see. I've only handled the one (again, brand new and it ran) so perhaps it was out of spec. My understanding is that bolt gap makes all the difference in "locking" strength/effort.

and for us civies mags are the most expensive out of all of them

No longer true. Get all the USGI 20rd M14 mags you want at 44mag.com for $21.50 each, now, a year ago, a year from now. Also Taiwan T57 mags for $17 at keepshooting.com and functional Korean knockoffs for $10-15 at various places.

.308 AR mags are also generally affordable now, with the functional CP mags for the DPMS design available for $15 each. Armalite type mags are still $27.50+, unfortunately.

FAL mags have gone way up in price and good condition FAL mags are now $18+, not the $5 and under they used to be.

G3 mags are still the cheapest, but the supply is drying up. I used to buy them for a buck or two each for excellent to like new condition. Now I think you'll be paying $5-10 each for that condition and you better buy now.

a shortened fal clone called DSA-58OSW

Uh, one of these is not like the other... also that requires a $200 tax stamp, paperwork that a lot of us don't want to fill out, and is not legal in all states anyway (including mine).

http://www.dsarms.com/Mini-SA58-FAL-OSW-Rifle-Semi-Auto-308-Cal----SA58OSW/productinfo/SA58OSW/

natescout
February 21, 2010, 10:11 AM
M1A squad scout in a sage stock. is a great option......

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/natesyz250/natespics048.jpg

SaxonPig
February 21, 2010, 10:43 AM
Z-M- Only 2 countries adopted it? Do you mean specifically the very first version by CETME or the G3 system in all subsequent versions? My source shows 55 nations that have issued the various G3 models. The FAL is more widely used (and my personal preference of the two by a slight margin) but I would hardly call it a failure as you seem to suggest.

I bought the civilian H&K M91 version around 1978. It was stolen in 1986 and recovered by the police in a drug house raid and returned to me in 2003.


http://www.fototime.com/6A91C425DDCD26A/standard.jpg


I recently added a collapsing stock and 30 round magazine just for fun. I think it looks like an Ak47 on steroids.


http://www.fototime.com/410E94D161F4DA4/standard.jpg


To address the original question, any of the rifles listed will do the job. Pick the one that fits you best.

Z-Michigan
February 21, 2010, 10:59 AM
Z-M- Only 2 countries adopted it? Do you mean specifically the very first version by CETME or the G3 system in all subsequent versions?

I was referring specifically to the CETME. I'm aware of the fairly widespread adoption of the G3, which is probably third after the AKM and FAL.

kimberkid
February 21, 2010, 11:51 AM
Accuracy, reliability, and ease of finding spare parts ... all are solved

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/kimberkid/Toys/P8110050.jpg

If you have a a mag release lever installed, the mag change issue is solved.

If you don't like the selector, it can be modified or get a PSG-1 trigger pack which has a longer selector lever and gives you a great trigger, a 2-in-1 benifit!

For a great trigger, send it to Bill Springfield.

FSJeeper
February 21, 2010, 01:33 PM
For anyone really serious about this debate, get the latest version of Boston's Gun Bible. The author does the most in depth analysis between the rifles I have ever seen. This is absolutely the best and most useful firearms book I own.

In his analysis, the M14 came in 1st with the FN FAL right on its heels.

One fact I did not know, The M14 has 61 parts, the FAL 143. For comparison, the AK has 75 and the AR has 119. Also, the SKS has 5 fewer parts than the AK.

The fact that the M14 gets the job done better with less than half the parts than the FAL is something to consider. The fact that the M14 has fewer parts than the AK is remarkable.

hoodfu
February 21, 2010, 01:52 PM
M1A Scout Squad 18" with Winchester 7.62x51mm NATO white box Q3130 and you'll have a great time. Big flash and big bang. Every one of my friends is in love with it.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108128

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=111057

rangerruck
February 21, 2010, 02:09 PM
c... more parts for it worldwide than anything else. m1 and ar, is pretty much limited to what is here.

OhioChief
February 21, 2010, 02:45 PM
I chose AR10 when I made the choice. But I'll probably own a M1A at some piont.

Frankl03
February 21, 2010, 03:28 PM
This thread gets dragged out so often!

I have had the following a STG 58 FAL built on a DSA receiver (sold it), AR10 Carbine traded plus some cash for an M1A and I own a PTR 91.

I already have a scope mount for the M1a. I just need to get a decent set of rings. I have plans for the PTR 91 as well, I want to put a scope, Harris bipod and possibly a PRS stock. I believe with that setup along with match ammo that it should be 1 MOA. Ymmv.

Maverick223
February 21, 2010, 03:48 PM
A for durability and accuracy.
B for style and accuracy.
C for reliability and style.
D for accuracy and, and...that's about it.

Personally I like the FAL the best, but I would rate it as the least accurate, the AR-10 being the most accurate, but offering nothing else, and is the least reliable IMO. The M14 is very versatile, and can be accurate, but suffers a little WRT reliability (not bad at all, but worse than the FAL/G3). The G3 is ugly, but works every time and has a lot of accuracy potential. With your stated requirements (assuming they were in order of priority) the G3 is probably the rifle for YOU.

:)

Al LaVodka
February 21, 2010, 09:52 PM
I find the G3 to be an interesting but front heavy despite short-barreled sheet metal footnote.

I Like the FAL, especially in prone full auto, otherwise, yeah, M1A it has to be.

Al

jcwit
February 21, 2010, 10:14 PM
It did say "battle" so I would pick M1A or better yet M14. Sniping is not a battle. A fire fight is a battle.

IMHO

mshootnit
February 21, 2010, 10:53 PM
I have a 16 in Saiga 308 I converted. With quality mags, I don't know how it could get any better. This rifle shoots sub 2 moa when scoped. For 500 its the steal of the universe. I don't need it but I'm gonna go have some cereal. Watching the bobsled is making me hungry.

crazed_ss
February 21, 2010, 11:29 PM
M1A... because I has two of them already :)

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee298/crazed1x/gats/IMG_0365.jpg

hak
February 21, 2010, 11:32 PM
Mags, that magazine is huge!

Hatterasguy
February 21, 2010, 11:36 PM
I'm going to suggest some oddballs here:

FN49, or Sig542.:D

The FN is easy to get, the Sig is much harder.

gunnutery
February 21, 2010, 11:37 PM
I recently had this debate with myself (that makes me sound kinda strange):D

I had narrowed it down to an FAL, Kel Tec RFB, M1A Socom 16, or a FN FNAR. The M1A Socom won for multiple reasons I won't go into. Don't bother telling me the definition of a "battle rifle."

mordechaianiliewicz
February 21, 2010, 11:43 PM
Either an HK91 build, or an AR-10.

Better ergonomics with an AR-10, superior reliability with an HK91

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
February 21, 2010, 11:57 PM
There are two rifles used by child soldiers in the arse end of Africa, those two rifles are the AK and the G3.

If I had to have one rifle for the rest of my life, I would take a G3. The G3 in my experience is light, durable, accurate enough, the 7.62x51 carries with it a truckload of pain, and it can eat the worst Russian steel case ammunition I feed it, magazine after magazine.

I own an LR-308T, its a sweet rifle, a testament to old man Stoner, but its not a beater rifle, I love beater rifles.

d2wing
February 22, 2010, 01:28 PM
+1 jcwit

Birddog1911
February 22, 2010, 02:58 PM
Greg Bell made a comment about Springfield receivers being out of spec. Yes, years ago a few made it out of the factory out of spec. ALL of the rest are good to go. $150 Bassett scope mount with one screw, and your good to go with a mount that will not shoot loose. Don't believe me? Do your research. Here is my vote:
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii190/Birddog4570/PSL013.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii190/Birddog4570/Rifles.jpg

Same lady, different dresses.

Almond27
February 22, 2010, 03:07 PM
I'm voting for what I own Springfield M1A standard model. I thought the M1A was going to be a complicated rifle to clean/take apart after initial field strip I realized it wasn't while you may need some special tools to completely disassemble you rarely have to completely disassemble.

HGUNHNTR
February 22, 2010, 03:15 PM
PTR-91 robust, accurate, reliable.

SpeedAKL
February 22, 2010, 05:09 PM
If accuracy is a top priority get the AR-10, no contest.

When reliability and spare parts are thrown in, the FAL and HK91-type rifle both start to look attractive. The problem with AR-10 spare parts is that, unlike the AR-15, the 7.62mm gun has no true standard design, i.e. the Armalite design varies a bit from the DPMS which varies a bit from the KAC SR-25, etc etc etc.

nastynatesfish
February 22, 2010, 05:18 PM
sa58 fal

spartanpride
February 22, 2010, 05:21 PM
I have to say, ALL of the M1A's win the beauty contest! I just don't know what looks better, all original, a big black rifle, camo, or what! Too many choices and so little money! :evil:

Devilnut
February 22, 2010, 06:33 PM
Without any disrespect to any of the other fine rifles listed, I'd have to vote for the FAL, and here is the logic:

I was a Marine Infantryman, I've broken AR/M16 pistol grips, firing pins, dinged mags to the point that they won't feed (This was done as a boot, private and PFC, after which I accepted the rifle's need for a lighter touch). and comparatively speaking,the FAL is extremely strong.My FALs have been abused, left without cleaning for thousands of rounds and been generally neglected as a proof of concept and have kept on trucking. It has a forged receiver (DSA) and is generally very forgiving of abuse.

The FAL is cake to scope with the railed dust covers. One of mine wears an Aimpoint, the other a Nikon, rock-solid mounts, with no zero issues.

A MAJOR factor in my choice is that a complete and utter moron can replace any assembly in the rifle, there are basically no depot-level repairs needed for the rifle, save replacing the barrel/headspacing. The locking shoulder is replaceable to allow for wear, as well as the ejector block. It is completely modular, as you can swap a longer barrel upper receiver and bolt in the time it takes to unscrew the hinge pin. This is a major plus in a "Battle Rifle" because you may not have a "depot" or an "armorer" to help out if your rifle goes down.

Another huge plus is the availability of spare parts. The sheer number of rifles out there means that the price of these parts are generally pretty low. I bought two whole sets of "guts" for my girls for about $200.00, that's every internal part of the rifle, and spare lowers and buttstocks. Running rifle=combat effective. I have friends who love the M1A but finding good GI parts is a bear and expensive. The bolt must be lapped in and headspace checked by a gunsmith, so if one breaks you are less a rifle. Also, I'll echo the PITA of mounting a scope on the SAI receivers, which were found to be out of spec on more than one of a friend's rifle's. One receiver was also out of spec in the area where the op rod travels, which was peening the receiver.
That being said, the M1A is a dream to shoot, the irons are second to none, and it has certain magic all it's own. But not my first choice for a battle rifle. The HK91 is really a cool rifle, but for running and gunning, in the real world, the lack of a BHO, and the ridiculous charging handle, place it in slow-moving zombie rifle territory, for me, anyway.

phinfan
February 22, 2010, 08:40 PM
I love battlerifles, own or have owned most, some more than one. In my opinion the M1A is the best of the bunch, I own two, great, great rifles.

a-sheepdog
February 22, 2010, 09:18 PM
Hands down, M1A.

ROGER4314
February 22, 2010, 09:53 PM
I fired a full auto HK 91 owned by a friend and owned my own HK 93 in .223. I thought those rifles were heavy and expensive. I especially disliked the fluted chamber on the HK. It messed up my brass and threw them WAY too far!

Now about that inexpensive M1A..................?

Mine is a SS bedded walnut stock and match grade all through. It does not have the rear lug. I think the world of the rifle and the caliber but I can out shoot it with my AR-15 rifles. Sad but true as I have about $2k in the M1A.

Being specific: that comparison is in prone with sling 600 yard matches with iron sights. At 200 yards it is NRA position shooting with sling and iron sights. AR-15 is going to win and it's a shame to say it.

Flash

mljdeckard
February 22, 2010, 10:04 PM
I had an M1A, and it worked like it was supposed to, except that I underestimated how involved it would be to really make a shooter out of it. I had dedicated optics on the 2nd gen mount, and when I went to shoot it, a couple of things happened.

First, without a good stock with a raised or adjustable comb, I was leaning way too far forward into the scope. DING! Cut over the eyebrow and snickers at the range. Ok, we'll hold off the scope until I get a different stock. So, I tried the iron sights. I kept clicking to get it on paper until......the scope mount was blocking the field of view for the sights. I realized that to make it work, it was going to take a lot more work and parts, I sold it to a guy at a gun show who was thrilled to pay what I did for it with no names and paperwork.

I am now lining up my AR-10 build. There are now pmags for the DPMS pattern, and I'll get .243 and .308 uppers for it to start.

madcratebuilder
February 23, 2010, 09:31 AM
M1A

You can't beat SA's life time warranty.

Z-Michigan
February 23, 2010, 10:48 AM
M1A
You can't beat SA's life time warranty.

Well, you could equal it, with the lifetime warranties from DS Arms (FN-FAL, SA58 model) and Armalite (AR-10).

MTMilitiaman
February 23, 2010, 11:27 AM
I'll cast another vote for the M1A.

The AR-10 may be more accurate, in general, and will be easier to scope. But these rifles are also going to be generally less reliable, and there are so many different designs out there, you can't be sure parts or even mags are going to be interchangeable.

The FAL may, possibly, be more reliable. But it won't be as accurate, and what's more, it will be more difficult to shoot to its potential due to its inferior sights and trigger. The M1A's sights and trigger make it a dream to shoot, and almost effortless to hit with, in my experience. And while I haven't torture tested my baby, my M1A has only had two malfunctions in the 1200 rounds or so I've put through it--both attributed to the same mag, which I marked and discarded. I've had no issues since. Carried the rifle around the woods this hunting season so it saw plenty of inclement weather. Didn't seem to notice. Funny, my grandpa said the M1 Garand didn't seem to mind the snow and ice it saw in Korea either.

I don't understand people's affection for the HK roller locks, but then, I've never shot one. Handling them, they offer the worst ergonomics and balance of the four, by far. It's the only one that doesn't offer a BHO. Among those who have shot all the designs mentioned, it is almost unanimously agreed that the roller lock has the most severe recoil. It takes far more attention than any of the others to get "shootable," that is, you don't have to give an M1A or AR a trigger job, nor have the goofy mag release changed back to something you can use. Then again, you don't have to modify your any of the other rifles to get them not to chew up your brass. And do you really want to compare the durability of the only stamped sheet metal receiver in the group to any of the others?

If mounting optics is a possibility, give Springfield's Cluster Rail System a look. It is the same rail made by Vltor and distributed exclusively through SA that they include on their SOCOM II rifles. While it can make the rifle muzzle heavy, this is true of most rail systems on most rifles, be they ARs, AKs, or otherwise. It provides a low profile, uninterrupted rail at the 12 o' clock that is 17 inches or so in length and runs from the stripper clip guide to the front of the stock--making a rifle so equipped easier to scope than probably many ARs. You may still have to select ring height working around the rear sight, and you may still have to get a cheek piece to adjust your comb height, but that's neither difficult nor expensive. The Cluster Rail also provides shorter rails at the 3 and 9 o' clock for accessories like lights and lasers, and a removable bottom rail for attaching a VFG or bipod. If Springfield will install this rail system on my M1A, I think I might have to have them--I've looked and this is by far the best thing going for optics mounts on an M1A, without dropping it into a Sage or other chassis system. It's also low enough to allow use of irons with optics removed.

If you're looking for sub-MOA accuracy right out of the box, you may want to get an AR-10. But if the 1.5 to 2 MOA accuracy an OTB M1A is going to offer with cheap 147 gr milsurp will suffice, the M1A is where it is at. It's an American icon and true "rifleman's rifle," and I have quickly grown very fond of mine...

TDECK
February 23, 2010, 12:07 PM
People keep knocking the HK G3 or HK 91 for being sheet metal but ignore that it has been reported by many who have used this rifle in service that they are very durable with the charging handle being the weak link. I have read reports from Nordic soldiers who state that the G3 is extremely durable in arctic conditions. Lets not forget that most AK rifles are stamped and have a legendary reputation for strength and reliability. Even firearms authorities who dont like the G3 acknowledge that it is very durable. The HK G3 magazines are robust, very high quality, and dirt cheap. I hate rifles with flimsy magazines. It can ruin a otherwise great rifle design. Please stop comparing a actual HK 91 to a knock off, they are not the same. All battle rifles discussed are more than capable and it really comes down to which one you shoot the best.

Maverick223
February 23, 2010, 12:13 PM
Please stop comparing a actual HK 91 to a knock off, they are not the same.I disagree WRT the PTR-91, it is made on the same tooling and is just as good as a genuine HK-91 IMO.

:)

TDECK
February 23, 2010, 12:47 PM
My point is that some one will shoot a HK 91 copy and have problems with it and then go on a board and say it is a HK product. Your PTR may be just as good but there should always be a distinction between an HK product and one that was built elsewhere. There are some real junkers out there!

Maverick223
February 23, 2010, 12:53 PM
Your PTR may be just as good but there should always be a distinction between an HK product and one that was built elsewhere.I have neither (and personally I prefer the FAL for the same role), but I have experience with both, and could tell no discernible difference between the two save for expense. OTOH I have seen several Century CETMEs with problems.

:)

MTMilitiaman
February 23, 2010, 02:16 PM
There are some real junkers out there!

Some of them being "real" HKs...

That's the point I was getting at, BTW. It's made by HK, so therefore, we will ignore that it may be merely just another stamped sheet metal receiver with crappy ergonomics, a bad trigger, and no BHO. [sarcasm] We can't compare it to the AK, because the AK is mass produced Eastern Bloc Commie Crap, and the G3 is a top-tier German engineered Western uber-rifle [/end sarcasm]. And because it has "HK" on it, we'll ignore that doesn't have the ergonomics or features of the other rifles because in a world of compromise...

Float Pilot
February 23, 2010, 03:02 PM
M1As tend to be fairly accurate out of the box.Particularly the full length version. (for which the entire system was originally designed) And there are LOTS of parts and magazines available across the US. ALTHOUGH, an M1A is not as nice as a REAL M-14. Knock off magazines can cause troubles.

A REAL FAL is pretty nice, and they are very, very, reliable in crappy conditions. Their sights are not as fine as an M1A /M14 and they tend to not be as accurate. Mounting a scope on the dust cover is not really an accurate option. Due to the glut of knock-offs and parts guns, buying a brand X FAL is like going to Las Vegas.

Real HK G-3s are not really tack drivers either, and as in all things HK they tend to be over-engineered. Nor are they particularly light in weight. I have only ever fired real G3s so I have no idea or interest in a knock-off.
Only the Germans could make a rifle with 40 parts when 25 would do just fine.

AR-10. I have only ever fired a real AR-10. A Sudanese version. I had to trade the guys a six pack of cold soda and clean his filthy dirty rifle. The original AR-10s were super light, (like the old M-16s) And it was pretty accurate using de-linked m80 machine gun ammo. I tried firing it full auto and it was not controllable due to the very light forward end. But as a rifle to carry in 100 degree heat it would be a real dream.
I have played around with some of the new AR-10 sized rifles just to fondle them. They all weigh much more than the originals. So much so that they no longer have any advantage over the M1A. Plus this whole deal with variations in magazines between brands looks like a real problem.

TDECK
February 23, 2010, 06:30 PM
The G3 is not my favorite but I believe that it matches the criteria of the original thread. He asked for a .308, reliability, accuracy, and plenty of spare parts. I would say a quality G3 type rifle would fulfill his specific requirements more than any other rifle mentioned.

Patriotme
February 23, 2010, 07:04 PM
Question:
Can you shoot .308 in a FAL (Not DSA FAL) and M1A? I seem to recall an instruction manual someone once posted on the Springfield M1A in which it said to only shoot 7.62x51mm (they are not really the same). Is .308 ok in the older FALs?
http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

Almond27
February 23, 2010, 07:56 PM
Springfield says you can shoot .308 as long as its not over 174grain pills. Mine is a preban 89 made so I don't know if I'm going to shoot .308 through it yet. My receiver heel is stamped 7.62mm so I think I'm gonna give Springfield a call tomorrow to ask for sure.

Maverick223
February 23, 2010, 08:29 PM
Can you shoot .308 in a FAL (Not DSA FAL) and M1A? I seem to recall an instruction manual someone once posted on the Springfield M1A in which it said to only shoot 7.62x51mm (they are not really the same). Is .308 ok in the older FALs?.308Win. should be fine for the FAL, but the primers may be too soft for the M1A (may cause a slamfire). If you shoot hot and heavy fodder it can also crack the heel of the M1A (new receiver time).

:)

skipbo32
February 23, 2010, 11:12 PM
M1A
gota have it!
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC_0057.jpg

bpl
February 24, 2010, 01:28 AM
Now there's some natural male enhancement! :D

skipbo32
February 24, 2010, 04:59 AM
Give me M14 or give me death!

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/m142.jpg

skipbo32
February 24, 2010, 05:03 AM
M14/M1A is man's best friend. tough as nails and can shoot through anything! works good in cold weather too. o....and the navy seals love it!

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/m144.jpg

skipbo32
February 24, 2010, 05:09 AM
i painted the stock after the cammo pattern on the delta sniper's M14 in the movie blackhawk down. clean or dirty, rain or shine, this gun go bang and the bad guy go fall down.


http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/charlene4.jpg

Patriotme
February 24, 2010, 05:53 AM
Springfield says you can shoot .308 as long as its not over 180grain pills. Mine is a preban 89 made so I don't know if I'm going to shoot .308 through it yet. My receiver heel is stamped 7.62mm so I think I'm gonna give Springfield a call tomorrow to ask for sure.
Let us know what they tell you. I've got a friend that's considering an M1A and sooner or later (when I get bored with M4's) I'll be looking at M1A's and FALs.
Do you see any difference between the current M1A's and your model?

Almond27
February 24, 2010, 01:29 PM
Talked to Debbie at Springfield Armory today and she said absolutely you can shoot .308 up to 174grains. Patriotme, only difference I see mine having from current production Standard model's is that mine is all USGI except for receiver and stock. Newer production models may have some USGI parts but Springfield does use some of their own parts now. Oh I forgot one thing mine does have the Flash Hider with the bayonet lug which they no longer put FH's with bayonet lugs on their rifles but there are plenty of USGI FH's out there if you are wanting a bayonet lug.

MeanStreaker
February 24, 2010, 03:00 PM
After looking at everything out there, I went with the M1A for my battle rifles. Best rifle ever designed and it's held up to everything I've thrown at it in all conditions.

Every American needs a .30 caliber semi-auto. :) (But I choose the M1A for me.)

Maximo
February 24, 2010, 04:10 PM
it does not matter to me which setup I would be given to use.....I prefer the 7.62/ .308 caliber over most everything else. I use to shoot 7 x 57 for years, until I was introduced to the 7.62. It has a great record for getting the job done. just imo.....:D maximo

spartanpride
February 24, 2010, 07:58 PM
One question about the M1A, seeing how they seem to be superbly accurate, would you shoot cheap steal cased ammo through your beloved M1A? Or would you just stick with brass cased, as they seem to be a bit easier on parts?

USAFRetired
February 24, 2010, 08:04 PM
I think we should do like the Swiss and issue every (qualified) male citizen a 7.62 weapon.

(Do they still do that?)

Robert
February 24, 2010, 08:28 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=108375&d=1257169761

ironhand1
February 24, 2010, 08:33 PM
Wow a lot of very "Emotional" responses.
You guys really love your....... ( fill in the bank )
Hey me too, I own all of the suggested MBR's (except the AR-10)
3-L1-A1's
2-HK-91's
1-Springfield M1-A
and also 2-Cetme's , 1- Norinco M-14 (Reworked and Re-heat treated)
And I have used many more examples of the one listed above. I have seen the military versions used in unbelievable conditions overseas with seemingly no ill effects to the weapon. I have had the opportunity to shoot a few and also to be shot at by more then a few of them in the service to this country.
And I can honestly say I could not fault anyone for choosing ANY of the given choices They are all FINE weapons and you would be well served by any of them. But why choose. I never understood the "my gun is better then yours thing",Or the "I have this gun so what you have is crap".
It's not like a woman, Have as many as you can afford. go on your M-14 won't Get jealous.
But you asked which one, so OK if I HAD to choose( and I say this with No personal ax to grind) if they were all laying on the table,
I would pick up the FAL..... Cause" I LIKE IT" that why, and for no other reason.....

Patriotme
February 24, 2010, 09:29 PM
One question about the M1A, seeing how they seem to be superbly accurate, would you shoot cheap steal cased ammo through your beloved M1A? Or would you just stick with brass cased, as they seem to be a bit easier on parts?
I know this doesn't answer your question about the M1A but I thought I'd throw it out anyway. I was browsing the DSA website and they have a warning about shooting steel cased ammo. They say not to do it in their FALs. They are very expensive rifles with a good rep but I wonder if they are setting them up to be bench rifles, MBR or safe queens in camoflauge.

more forty fives
February 24, 2010, 09:33 PM
M1A any day!

Col. Plink
February 24, 2010, 09:34 PM
Saiga 308v.21

Birddog1911
February 24, 2010, 10:17 PM
I've seen a couple of posts where folks talk about putting the heavier loads through the M1A/M14. It needs to be said, that without an adjustable gas plug, that you should absolutely NOT shoot heavy factory ammo through the platform. You will damage your rifle. You can shoot heavy bullets, but you have to be sure that they are not pushing beyond 2700 FPS to avoid damage. A heavy, factory hunting load can bend your op-rod and do other damage.

Maverick223
February 24, 2010, 10:20 PM
Do they [the Swiss] still do that [issue a 7.62x51mm to all qualified male citizens]?No, but they do issue a Sig 550 (FA 5.56NATO) to every man IIRC.

I was browsing the DSA website and they have a warning about shooting steel cased ammo. They say not to do it in their FALs. They are very expensive rifles with a good rep but I wonder if they are setting them up to be bench rifles, MBR or safe queens in camoflauge.Just about every rifle manufacturer has the same warning. It doesn't mean that they won't eat it up all day long...because IME it will.

:)

medalguy
February 24, 2010, 11:21 PM
M1A or M14 PREFERABLY.

Almond27
February 25, 2010, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by spartanpride View Post
One question about the M1A, seeing how they seem to be superbly accurate, would you shoot cheap steal cased ammo through your beloved M1A? Or would you just stick with brass cased, as they seem to be a bit easier on parts Steel case in an M1A is a NO GO.

ronbuick
February 25, 2010, 12:53 AM
FN, M14 would be good, not a bolt action rifle that would horrible in a fire fight, other than to stay and provide cover fire from a distance, just my input.

Ron

heycatman
December 6, 2010, 08:16 PM
Honestly, I asked the same question and made a decision and I came up with "A) Quality HK 91F build". I actually narrowed it down to these 4 decisions as well. I'm not gonna say one is better than the other I think they all carry their own but this is the choice I made.

My first criterias had to be this....

1. Legality: A legally own-able version of one of these rifles. I live in Wisconsin so really that means Federal laws and no full auto.

2. Accuracy and reliability: It's excellent, sub 1" moa at 100yds with no modifications (except scope). Definitely needs a sweeter trigger though. The pull is too hard even though the gun is heavy it's still easy to pull the gun to the side with a poor trigger squeeze. So if you want a hair splitter you'll invest in a new trigger. But even with the factory heavy trigger it's frigging dead on. 18" barrel and quality ammo and you have a good shot to at least 300yds with minimal practice. I'd bet with a skilled shooter and a nicer trigger you could double that.

Also, the reliability is outstanding. Over a thousand rounds fired and no mis-feeds, at least 2 different types of surplus ammo and store bought federal and Winchester soft point/hollow point (expanding/hunting type) ammunition. Only malfunctions came from nursing the bolt forward and a couple misfires. Nothing worse than having a loud clanking noise from releasing the action in the morning before walking out to your hunt but then again it wasn't really meant for that either.

3. Practicality: parts, price, etc.. - Price was comparable to the others, it's also practical for deer hunting even though you get looks here and there. .308 is great for whitetail deer and no I don't fill the entire 20rnd magazine. Parts are easy to come by if your comfortable with online shopping but honestly local gun stores tend to lack greatly in my area with this type of gun but I've managed well with good consumer/shopping techniques.

4. Ergonomics (weight, function): this is wear the gun suffers and as you can see from my decision making I choose to live with it.

A) I'm big, I had to put an extension on the stock of the PTR91 in order to get a comfortable length of pull and cheek weld, the stock is just short. After the rubber pad on the end it was fine.
B) The stanag claw mount sits the scope high which is a bonus cause you get the excellent HK adjustable drum sight and a scope over it but really NOT a super good cheek weld but again if you practice it will still work.
C) The cocking handle is weird to get used to. It folds forward on release and then you have to pull hard to unfold to cock back the handle/bolt-career. This sucks but I believe is a result of the roller locking system on the bolt career needs to be pried/leveraged otherwise you'll jerk the bolt career back when clambering(?) but again you'll get used to it with use and proper practice/procedure for reloading.
D) It's heavy but of course thus is the nature of these guns.
E) The mag release is awkward to reach but as I understand a result of law making/legality at one point. You can fix it by replacing it with surplus parts.

Weight and ergonomics got stuck in last. I think some would definitely argue with this statement but.... If you want to use a gun well, practice using it. Don't expect it to conform to you, this is the nature of improvising as well as skilled use. With that said I love my PTR-91. And weirdness is easily remedied with training as well as it's reliability an accuracy make up for it's flaws.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14243233/PTR-91.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14243233/PTR-91_2.jpg

Panzercat
December 7, 2010, 06:07 PM
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/rfb/
http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-RFB.htm

http://www.keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/ourguns/gallery/b_33c5cba5976e62bd471ae0e534396697RFB_left_6417hires.jpg

bang_bang
December 7, 2010, 06:11 PM
I long for the day when I own a M1A and FAL.

Muh muh muh makes me haaaapppyyy.:p

PowerJoker6.0
December 7, 2010, 06:21 PM
M1A

jd46561
December 7, 2010, 06:29 PM
FAL -stg 58
It Rocks!!!!.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/FAL/MyFal002.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/FAL/MyFal005.jpg

rayman
December 7, 2010, 06:39 PM
FAL is cool. This one is an SAR 48. $1100 & it's yours...

Wildbillz
December 7, 2010, 08:26 PM
Wow lots of info to think about in this thread.

So I thought I would just throw in some random thoughts I had on it.

G3 system.
Cheap mags (you can get the alloy ones for a buck or less), Parts are avalible and not to spendy (not what I would call Cheap). There are US made parts being made for it now so thats a plus. Hard on brass if your going to reload. Some of the accessorys (the real H&K type) can get pretty costly but there cool to have (22cal conversion, trainning bolt and ammo, collapsable stock, Scope and mount and so on) Not real paractical to rebuild in the field if needed.

Fal System
Mags not as cheap as they use to be. Parts seem to be a bit more avalible then the G3 ones. Some of the parts are getting pretty costly (barrels, Imbel Receivers and such) Some US made parts about. Pretty easy on the brass for reloading (it dose leave a bit of a dent on the case if the gas system is set high) Some of the OEM accessorys are real costly (Scopes and mounts, the 22cal converson Orignals not aftermarket ones) They are easy to build or rebuild by yourself.

M14 system
Mags not cheap but not out of this world cost wise. Cheap USGI parts?? Tell me where. Try to find a USGI bolt for less then $100. Now if you bought a bunch of parts when the CMP had them your sitting in tall cotten. I don't have an issue with the Springfield Inc receivers (but thats just me) I have two of them and they work just fine. With the exception of the barrel, this is one of the most rebuildable rifles on the list (as far as I am concerned) Minamum tools needed to replace parts. If you use only USGI parts (not cheap) I have had little to know problems with them fitting. It seems a bit on the long side ( the 18" bbl would take care of that) During the 90s I fired a bit of the chinese steel case ammo out of one and never had an issue with it. But it was the copper washed type ammo.

308 AR
I have no real expereance with a 308 cal one. Shot a lot of 5.56mm M16s and ARs. I like them well enough and would think that a 308 would work about the same if it was a quality one. The cost of mags is coming down (and quality going up) a good thing. I don't know if the parts will interchange between a 308 one and 5.56 one. But that would be nice if they did.

One that you might think about adding.

USGI M1 Garand
Have it rebarreld to 308. Clips are still pretty cheap. You can leave them loaded and not worry about springs taking a set. USGI parts are still pretty much avalable and don't cost an arm and a leg (some of the parts are getting harder to get and more expensive though) It dosn't have the EBR look which might pay off in some situations. Acurate and reliable. A welth of info on how to make it more accurate. Reloading data abounds. If you can live with the 8 round limit you would be good to go. I would look at a service grade from the CMP ( www.odcmp.com ) and then maybe buy a rack grade or two for parts.


Now as for which one would I pick as my one and only?? Tie between the M14 and the Fal. (Thank god we can own all of them if we want too)

WB

Al LaVodka
December 7, 2010, 10:25 PM
M1A
Al

yz3500f
December 7, 2010, 10:47 PM
M1a

charlie echo
December 7, 2010, 10:59 PM
M14SA or M14K or M1A

http://www.lrbarms.com/m14rifles.html

http://www.smithenterprise.com/products14.html

MTMilitiaman
December 8, 2010, 12:07 AM
One question about the M1A, seeing how they seem to be superbly accurate, would you shoot cheap steal cased ammo through your beloved M1A? Or would you just stick with brass cased, as they seem to be a bit easier on parts?

If it was the Zombie Apocalypse or Red Dawn, and the only ammo I could find was steel cased, I'd use it. But I do generally find brass cased 147 gr FMJ to be readily available and cheap enough to. This is more out of concern over the ammunition than the rifle. I am pretty sure the rifle could take it, but I don't trust the ammo not to have a boo-boo in My Precious. If a steel cased Wolf round blows a primer or something in my $200 SKS or even my ninja'd Rommy AK, and damages the rifle, it'll piss me off, but it won't be nearly as tragic as the same incident in my $1300 M1A.

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