[Newton]

I don't know how "new" it was, but it really surpirsed me. I know this thing has been re-hashed a million times with a million different theories, I personally find the "sniper in the water drain" the most amusing and bizarre theory, but this one really grabbed my attention.

When you have several eye witnesses and a PHOTOGRAPH of the sniper on the grassy knoll, its hard to just quote the Warren Commission and say that there was just one shooter, and that we need to get over it.

The simple facts of last nights show were that expert photographic analysis of a picture taken 1/6th of a second after the fatal shot shows a man dressed in a police officers uniform pointing a rifle at the president, with a man in back of him wearing a hardhat and someone dressed in a soldiers uniform in front of them. The smoke "donut" from the weapons muzzle can be clearly seen. A driver on the overpass saw the police officer toss the weapon to a man dressed in railway workers clothes who broke it down into pieces and both then left the scene. The soldier in the foreground was later identified and interviewed for the first time. He stated that he heard the shot and felt the concussion of the bullet pass him by, he had also earlier been asked to move to a different location by a man who produced CIA credentials (probably fake - no conspiracy theory there). He was assigned to Alaska just a couple of days later and by the time his posting was over, the verdict on the whole affair had been decided on.

A key figure in the French underworld confirmed these facts and identified the shooter as a now dead Sardinian (I think) hitman. He added that the shooters stayed in a safe house in the Dallas area for 10 days after the killing. Payment was made in Heroin.

You would have to see the whole show to get the facts properly aligned, but when you actually see someone explain that he saw a sniper dressed in a police uniform take the shot and then pass the rifle to an accomplice, and then hear this information corroborated by 2 other people, it makes you wonder how on earth we still believe in the lone shooter theory.

As ever YMMV and probably will.

[Mike Irwin]

There were actually 751 snipers in Dallas that day.

So many bullets hit JFK that he actually vaporized. The "body" that we see is actually a wax dummy.

Lyndon Johnson was the sniper in the Book Repository, J. Edgar Hoover commanded the sniper teams along the overpass.

Zapruder's camera had a 105mm howitzer attached to it, that's why it continues to jostle so much, from the recoil...

[Newton]

I was going to add that if you have nothing serious to add then just move quietly along, seems I was too late.

[johnnymenudo]

I think the Sardinian hitman's name associated with the conspiracy theory was Lucian Serti (sp?) and he actually spent several years living in south america with financial support from an unknown source. I can't remember where I heard this but it was several years ago. Does anyone have a picture of this guy. My father knew someone with that name and backround back in the late 50's and would like to see if it was the same guy.

[Gunhamr]

I have not seen this latest show on TV but never did buy
the Warren Commission version. I have shot too many
rifles to believe that Oswald did this all by himself. I also
remember that a team of Marine sharpshooters
[snipers] could not duplicate Oswald's supposed feat
with the Carcano type rifle and 3/4 inch .22 scope. In any
murder case you look for a motive. Who had the most
to gain from JFK's assassination? There have always been
too many unansered questions for the Warren report to
be believable.

[Mike Irwin]

Actually, given the HUGE numbers of conspiracy theories that are out there, I don't think mine's all that off base, really.

All of these have been floated, either new or old, over the years, with MOUNTAINS of "evidence" to back them up:

-- The Mob was in on the assassination (I give this one stronger credibility than most, even though the Mob has always been VERY reticent about going after public figures).

-- LBJ was the main orchestrator behind the assassination.

-- J. Edgar Hoover was a main participant in the assassination.

-- Jackie called down the assassination because she was tired of JFK's cheating.

-- There were upwards 40 assassins spread all along the motorcade route.

-- Zapruder was in on the conspiracy, and made the movie to document the events for posterity but also to be able to identify bystanders who would then be murdered before they could give their testimony.

-- The limo was wired with a massive bomb in the undercarriage in case no one managed to hit JFK. That's why the FBI seized the limo so quickly (Duh, as if they wouldn't no matter what!)

-- The ultimate failsafe was, if JFK managed to escape all that, I guess, the pilot or copilot of Air Force One would crash the plane to prevent pictures of his homosexual activity from being leaked to the military and his family.


I've really begun to dread this time of year, because there's a huge spike in mouthbreathing as all the competing conspiracy theorists promote their pet projects.

If there was a conspiracy to assassinate the President, all of the main actors are dead, and they managed to create the impossible -- the seamless multi-person conspiracy that never unravels. Not even Nixon, for all his paranoia, was able to do that with Watergate.

Quite frankly, when it comes to the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory of the day, I'm not really sure that anyone has anything serious to add anymore...

[moa]

Supposedly, three shots were fired by Oswald. Apparently, the second bullet shot was never recovered. Does anybody know how many empty cartridge cases were found in and around Oswald's rifle?

I saw the Zapgruder film shown in slow motion a number of times and some of the Kennedy autopsy pictures, and looks like the 6.5mm round definitely did the trick. The upper right hand side of Kennedy's skull was pretty much blown apart, and I think a significant portion of the brain was missing.

I also remember the evening of Nov. 22nd, 1963 standing on Wisconsin Ave.,in Wash. DC, across the street from WTTG-TV (now Fox TV), and watching Jackie Kennedy sitting next to a casket in the same blood splattered pink suit, as the ambulance passed by on its way to Bethesda Naval Hospital for the autopsy.

[Joe Demko]

My favorite is the comparatively recent hypothesis that LHO fired two shots to no lethal effect and that the third head-exploding fatal shot was accidentally fired by a secret service agent who panicked and screwed the pooch. The best part of that hypothesis is that said agent was carrying a brand new gee-whiz rifle called an AR-15.

[Sleeping Dog]

Oswald said something like "I didn't shoot anyone, I'm just a patsy." I believe him. I think that ex-marine did not fire a gun that day.

So, it's been 40 years since the last coup d'etat.

Regards.

[Nando Aqui]

A serious and simple question:

Is there anyone (alive) who actually knows what really transpired?

Alex

[cordex]

Anyone see the "Red Dwarf" episode that covered this? "Tikka to Ride", I think.

Long story short, Lister, Cat, Kryten and Rimmer travel back in time and accidentally thrwart the assassination attempt by Oswald by knocking him out the window (and then going back and being in the room when Oswald enters, so he goes upstairs and when he makes the shot, he only wounds JFK). They then travel forward in time and find that JFK ended up being a horrible president, nearly caused nuclear war and ended up being a discrace. They kidnap him from the police who were taking him to jail and take him back in time, where he ends up shooting himself from the grassy knoll.

Very plausible theory, there.
So am I right in thinking I could get a major nuclear explosion all over this suit? Cos I'm telling you guys, that stuff does *not* dry clean!

[bountyhunter]

I think anybody who believes that stooge Oswald fired that manlicher rifle three time that rapidly (and that accurately) needs to come look at some prime real eastate I have for sale on the planet mars.

The Italians affectionately referred to the manlicher as the "gun that never hurt anybody on purpose". I can believe he could get one shot on target, but this is a bolt action rifle. Imagine trying to operate a bolt, reset the gun, sight in and squeeze and be hitting that accurately(?) Two of the shots were within about three inches on POI. The first went through the neck just below the head and cut the spinal cord. That's when you see JFK's arms "windmilling" as he is trying to move but they nerve connection has been damaged. A couple of seconds later the fatal shot hits the front of the head... which according to the Warren report, was actually an exit wound although it somehow cause his head to snap to the rear.

Two shooters?


DUHHHHHHHH!

[Mark Tyson]

I'd like to see that photograph and talk to those witnesses.

Sounds like my plumber's theory - he knows it was the freemasons and the trilateral commisionm together wtih communist Cuba.

[Mike Irwin]

"A couple of seconds later the fatal shot hits the front of the head... which according to the Warren report, was actually an exit wound although it somehow cause his head to snap to the rear."

This has been discussed in depth here, the concept of both massive muscle spasms caused by the head trauma pulling JFK's head back, as well as the simple physics of the plume of material ejected from his head pushing it back in a Newtonian response.

Also, if you examine the Zapruder film frame by frame, you'll clearly see the blood and bone tissue erupting from the FRONT of JFK's head, not the rear.

[Bruce H]

Everybody knows John Connley did it. Two into JFK and an ND into himself.

[cordex]

the simple physics of the plume of material ejected from his head pushing it back in a Newtonian response.
Mike, I can buy the muscle spasm bit, but this is harder to swallow.
You're ignoring the whole picture, which involves the fact that all the matter that is being blown out was accellerated by the bullet pushing along its directional vector.

Simple experiment. Take a can of baked beans and set it on a post. Shoot at it. Did it rocket back towards you?

[James Bondrock]

I was going to add that if you have nothing serious to add then just move quietly along, seems I was too late.

Jeeze, must everything be serious? :rolleyes:

[James Bondrock]

If there was a conspiracy to assassinate the President, all of the main actors are dead, and they managed to create the impossible -- the seamless multi-person conspiracy that never unravels.

There's one more. It was all done at the behest of Lady Bird Johnson. ;) (Is she still alive? :uhoh: )

[Joe Demko]

Simple experiment. Take a can of baked beans and set it on a post. Shoot at it. Did it rocket back towards you?

better example, wrap a canteloupe in a 1/4" thick layer of strapping tape, set it on a post, shoot at it, and see if it jumps toward or away from the rifle. Much indebted to Penn and Teller for their piece on this in their book "How to Play With Your Food."

[Mike Irwin]

Cordex,

There are a couple of examples of this phenomon using pumpkins and other kinds of mellons on the website.


"You're ignoring the whole picture, which involves the fact that all the matter that is being blown out was accellerated by the bullet pushing along its directional vector."

And quite frankly no, you're not ignoring that, at least not as I understand physics. The matter being accellerated by the bullet is what CAUSES this effect.

In other words, if you have 8 ounces of material being blown out of one side of an object in a plume, the force of that plume pushes the origin object in the other direction -- the equal by opposite thingy (note scientific term) that Newton talked about.

Here's one of the experiments I'm talking about...

http://www.jfklancer.com/galanor/jet_effect.html


I don't know of any cadaver experimentation on the possibility of the jet effect, but it is at least possible given the experimentation that's been done.


A can of baked beans is also a poor example, IMO. You need to have something that is heavy enough to resist the initial impact of the bullet and large enough to allow the pressure wave to build -- a can of beans isn't either.

I have, however, shot 1 gallon milk jugs in the past...

Some of them flew back.

Some of them flew straight up in the air.

And some of them came back towards me...

Not very scientific, but it is interesting...

[Newton]

Jeeze, must everything be serious?

Nope, that's why the Internet gods created Glock Talk.

I have heard the Newtonian reactionary force theory many times, even if you accept it, have you ever seen that Watermelon "snap" back towards you as if it had been launched off its stand as opposed to gently falling forwards off the stand under the recoil impulse.

How on Earth can you get past the initial autopsy report that indicated a tiny entrance wound in the front of the head and an exit wound that removed approxiately 50% of the REAR of the Presidents head. Penn and Teller may be able to make a Watermelon fall towards the shooter but I doubt they could give it an explosive frontal wound and a pin prick exit wound.

Three eye witnesses:

Military serviceman (on the knoll and in the line of fire)
Housewife (facing the knoll)
Motorist (parked on the flyover looking down into the Parking Lot)

One photograph showing shooter, rifle, and muzzle blast.

Trust me, I'm not a big conspiracy theorist, I believe that we did land on the Moon, that Flu Shots do not contain an alien virus, and that Iraq did have WOMD.

But every time I examine the evidence, whichever evidence, on the JFK shooting, I find it impossible to believe that there was not a shooter in front of the President, be he on the Grassy Knoll, Overpass, or hovering overhead in an invisible helicopter.

How could the Warren commission believe otherwise, and don't even get me started on the nonsense of the magic bullet. The official answer to this tragedy is even more ludicrous than some of the far fetched conspiracy theories.

[teppo-shu]

Simple experiment. Take a can of baked beans and set it on a post. Shoot at it. Did it rocket back towards you?

I HAVE actually done this - not with baked beans, but an old, swollen jumbo-sized can of sliced peaches. With a .243 Win from 100 yds.

YES, it DID fly straight back at me.:what:

It seems to me that this is precisely the jumping-off point for almost all the conspiracy theories. They tested this phenomenon back in the '70's I think, but only with cadavers. No one seems to have accounted for the fact that a living human head is slightly pressurized on the inside.

I used to know a cop who told me some of the weird things that happen when a person is shot in the head. Whenever they were working a scene, a cloud of misted blood would appear on a wall or other object in the most unlikely places. The pressure of the head atomizes the blood sufficiently that it's able to float throughout a house, sometimes several rooms away.

[Wildalaska]

I always where my tin foil helmet this time of year..

That being said, having read every (and I mean ) every published book on the subject, I beleive Oswald was the shooter and the instigator was Carlos Marcello.

WildactuallyitwasthemasonsAlaska

[Sergeant Bob]

I don't know of any cadaver experimentation on the possibility of the jet effect, but it is at least possible given the experimentation that's been done.
I heard something on the radio the other day about exactly that, cadaver experimentation. It was said they were able to duplicate the effect as reported. Wish I could remember who said it.

I have, however, shot 1 gallon milk jugs in the past...
I too have shot alot of milk jugs, along with fruit, vegetables, melons, etc. I have found it common for the object to react by coming toward me.

[Mike Irwin]

"How on Earth can you get past the initial autopsy report that indicated a tiny entrance wound in the front of the head and an exit wound that removed approxiately 50% of the REAR of the Presidents head."

Doctor error in noting the location of the wound given the fact that he's working on the remains of the President of the United States?


How do you get past the frames of the Zapruder film that shows, very clearly, the gout of blood and tissue coming from the front/side of Kennedy's head, with the rear of his head visible behind the cloud?



Sgt. Bob,

That would be VERY intersting to see.

[Mike Irwin]

Teppo,

"No one seems to have accounted for the fact that a living human head is slightly pressurized on the inside."

I've thought about that, but I really don't think that would be much of a factor given the pressure wave that would be generated by a projectil moving through the brain matter. That would have to be several hundred, or perhaps even thousand, times greater than the either the systolic or diastolic pressure in the head.

[Mike Irwin]

Here we go...

Frame 313, showing the position of the blood cloud in relation to to the back of Kennedy's head. (edited to include the words in bold)

In order for that cloud to have come out of the REAR of Kennedy's head, the motorcade would have to be moving in reverse...

http://www.hunt101.com/img/072010.jpg

Edited to change the pic to a link. Link goes to a still frame of the Zapruder film showing Kennedy being shot.

[Sergeant Bob]

Mike Irwin That would be VERY intersting to see.
You mean the cadaver experiments? Yeah, I started searching for references after I started my post. Haven't been able to find anything substantial yet though.

[Mike Irwin]

Bob, yes, sorry, the cadaver experimentation.

We know from the work of others (Thompson and LaGarde) that a bullet impacting a cadaver suspended from the wrists, or a weight simulating a suspended cadaver (Fackler) won't cause much in the way of oscillation, and that a high speed jacketed bullet is hardly noticable at all, but in that situation the physical arrangement isn't conducive to showing what would happen to a smaller object, like a head, attached to a loose pivot point...


You know, I think I really have the bug to do some experimentation...

Rigging up a pintle-type mount wouldn't be that hard, something that could roughly equal the range of movement of the human neck.

On top of that would go head sized mellons...

Oh Mal? Could I use your range for some experiments in the spring?

[ARperson]

Frame 313, showing the position of the blood cloud to the back of Kennedy's head.

MISREAD ON MY PART. SORRY. The original wording (in italics above) could have been taken either way. Apparently I took it the wrong way. Again, sorry.

Also, you cannot use a melon to simulate reaction (forward or backward) because your melon (the fruit) is not attached to a neck and torso as Kennedy's melon (his head) was. When trying to duplicate crimes, one must be vigilant in getting all the parameters exactly the same or the results are pointless. So all the melon and baked bean cans in the world don't mean diddly.

I have quite a bit interest in this story myself (must be something about being born on the 22nd). And while I haven't read every book (every? really.), I have read quite a few (more than 10). I do give credence to the secret service agent shot for a couple of reasons. First, the guy who came up with that theory started out trying to prove the Warren Commission was correct so he had no reason to come up with some crazy idea that contradicted them. Second, his focus was on nothing other than ballistics, trajectories, geometry, and physics. No politics. Third, he published a picture of said agent with the AR15-type rifle. (That alone doesn't support the theory, but at least the rifle was there and the theory can't be discredited on that account). Fourth, when the author of the theory mentioned the name of the agent, said author wasn't received to well by the agent. If it was incorrect, the agent would have a strong case for slander. I wouldn't stake my life on the theory to be sure. But it's the strongest case I've read yet to explain the 2nd shot and it's results.

Finally, there is no way the bullet that passed through Kennedy's neck, came out his chest, entered and exited Connally's torso, then passed through Connally's wrist, and lodged into his thigh is the same round that explodes a skull. The ballistics just aren't the same.

All this being said, it does not answer the 'why' question at all. It does nothing to shed light on Oswald's guilt one way or the other. And it does nothing to shed light on any of the other players in the story.

[STW]

Several years ago when they relooked at the Warren report a lot of testimony was on television. The only part I that kept my interest was the ballistics. They showed films of tests with animals demonstrating, among other things, the influence of the major muscles in snapping the head back.
The posturing of the politicians as the sought assurance that these were old films and they personally had nothing to do with harming animals was somewhat pathetic. However, one did admit that, as a child, he had seen a similar reaction from a shot rabbit (but it was years ago before he was enlightened). I still can't understand how the death of a president is not worth the sacrifice of even one goat even if it means solving the case.:banghead: :scrutiny: :barf:

[Mike Irwin]

ARPerson...

"Frame 313, showing the position of the blood cloud to the back of Kennedy's head."


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Dammit!

That is not what I meant to say!

I MEANT to say "IN RELATION to the back of Kennedy's head!"

The next paragraph, however, should make very clear what I was talking about.

"Also, you cannot use a melon to simulate reaction (forward or backward) because your melon (the fruit) is not attached to a neck and torso..."


Hence, my comment about rigging up a mellon on a pintle mount in a subsequent message. That would at least give some simulation to the neck's range of motion.

It's really difficult to say, but it appears that Kennedy's torso doesn't move (at least much) in relation to the head until well after the shot hits.

[Mike Irwin]

STW,

Years ago, in college, I saw a full body convulsive spasm caused by head trauma.

The individual was playing rugby, and took a knee to the side of the head, causing a severe concussion. For a few moments it look as if his body was trying to form a circle, with the spasms pulling his legs up and his head and torso back.

[ARperson]

Mike Irwin

No problem. I can't even count the number of times I've had to edit posts (hopefully before I hit submit) because of errors in typing. Case of the brain working faster than the fingers. At least that's my excuse. :D

Hence, my comment about rigging up a mellon on a pintle mount in a subsequent message.

I was typing my message when you wrote that one, so I didn't see it until after mine was finished and submitted. But I think you're on to something.

One other point to make regarding Kennedy's head position in relation to his being hit the second time: he was already starting to move his head forward and downward (from the force of the first shot) and his torso was also already beginning to slump forward a bit by the time the second shot connected. That is another piece of the puzzle that would be difficult to re-create.

[cordex]

Hmmm ... you may be right, Mike.

How'd you plan on rigging up that pintle mount to the melon? Could you simulate the spine's offset from the centerline of the head?

[Roper]

....and J.R. shot L.H.O. because............?

[Gewehr98]

And discussing the whole scenario with a co-worker friend of mine (retired field-grade officer) who wasn't a fan of JFK, we came to one conclusion about the 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge:

It was one hell of a varmint round.

;)

[Abenaki]

I have a few questions on this.

Would ball ammo have this type of explosive effect on a head shot?
I do know that a varmint round such as my 22-250 would do this.

Also, if there was not a cover up.......why did they seal the records for
50 years or what ever time it was?

Abenaki

[P226]

In 1978 didn't they change it to 4 shots fired?I kinda remember
that a man was hit by chips from the sidewalk from a round
that missed.

I did see monday where they lined up two maniquins in car
seats and used tubing to show the path of the "magic" bullet.
Does anyone believe the "magic" bullet made all those turns,
seven wounds in two people and was found in the hospital
in perfect shape.What about the bullet fragments in JFK's brain
and in the Gov(Connolly sp?)?How come they will not say what
their weight is?Sunday night FOX had a show that said there is
dna and cloth fibers on the bullets and fragments but will not be tested.
They also showed how the FBI and presidential detail destroyed
evidence by cleaning the limo at the hospital before photo's were taking.
Now there was no dna when this happened,but cleaning the car
before photo's were taking should not have happened.Plus
the 6th flr had reporters and cops and people walking around
leaving footprints and making it impossible to see if someone walked
from the window to were the rifle was found or if anyone was
even at window before the police went to the 6th flr.

[ARperson]

Also, if there was not a cover up.......why did they seal the records for

To protect the Kennedy family.

From what I haven't figured out yet. But apparently they wanted immediate descendants dead and gone before they brought out the awful truth.

[Lennyjoe]

ABC is broadcasting their version of the Kennedy Assasination tomorrow at 9 Eastern. Its even in 3D scenario. Will make for interesting viewing.

[Stealth101]

They sealed the records to protect this nation and the American people....
I believe that JR shot LHO because what he did know was dangerous to some.....whether he was a shooter, we will never know from him....I still think it is intresting how he protested his innocence, and that he was being set up ! .....Thats why he was shot...what he did know, he might sing next..... The hand of the spooks is evident....and as several of the documentaries have pointed ,out Oswald worked for the CIA in New Orleans! Was he used just as he stated, for a patsy, as cover for something far more sinister!

[Stealth101]

Bill Dalys ...Investigative Reports " The Men Who shot Kennedy" Is the most compelling documentary I have seen.....from the underworld interviews and the apparent CIA links ....if the records were opened it would blow us all away....IMHO the sealing of the records had nothing to do with the Kennedy family but everything to do with us!

[mephisto]

Has anyone ever shot a Mannlicher-Carcano? I have. It sucks. have you ever seen the diagram of the room where lee Harvey took the "shots"? the casing are all in a very tight area. When I shot this fine rifle, Mannlicher-Carcano, I took three fast as I could shots and came up with a couple of facts, or maybe thesis.
1. The bolt is a piece of crap. It is very hard to move with a smooth action. Kind of sticky, I don’t know if that is a common occurrence with said rifle.
2. The spent casings flew. Far. Not really in the same area. 5-10 feet from each other.
The ballistics of this “case” are so inconclusive, my own opinion., Even experts have conflictive views.
So what do I think? Who really gives a shiet. His dead. So are 75% of the people there, another conspiracy theory in this fiasco. Its sad that there are people that devote so much time to this distraction but than again I play to much golf, so says the wife. If it was me I would use a photon destabilizer canon from 500 meters.

.

[JohnKSa]

The shots that LHO would have had to make have been duplicated on at least 3 occasions that I am aware of. Using the proper equipment and a towed target moving at the proper speed and shot from a tower of the proper height, etc.

Having been to Dealey Plaza and looked out the window next to the one LHO would have used, I have to say that it didn't look like a difficult shot to me. Dealey is a LOT smaller than it looks on TV/photos.

A few years ago, I got interested in this and read every book I could locate(I own more than 30 on the topic and have read beyond my own library) and watched every documentary on the subject I could find. I own a copy of the Zapruder film on VHS with a section that goes through frame by frame with the frames numbered.

My conclusion, for whatever it's worth is that Oswald did it. To date, I've not seen a shred of supportable, conclusive evidence that he didn't.

I've seen a lot of things that raise questions, but absolutely nothing that could prove that there was someone else present or that LHO couldn't have done it.

I will allow that it is possible that the SS agent in the chase car may have accidentally contributed to the situation with an negligent discharge. There are some interesting problems that this explanation fixes (why the SS cleaned the car before the investigation and why the brain disappeared). Regardless, that doesn't eliminate LHO as the assassin or automatically mean that there was a conspiracy.

I've come to one other conclusion. It only takes one crackpot a second to propose a theory and make up some supporting evidence. It takes a lot of people a lot of time to disprove a theory and disprove the supporting "evidence"...

[4v50 Gary]

You mean it wasn't suicide after all?

I doubt if our children's children will know the truth. BTW, when in Dallas, do see the 6th Floor Museum. It's still considered a crime scene so they won't let you pose for a snapshot (camera, not gun) with your rifle at that window.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I work in downtown Dallas next to Dealy Plaza. Over the last week or so as I've been walking to lunch or otherwise outdoors I've managed to hear a whole spate of new and increasingly outlandish conspiracy theories spouted by sidewalk CSI analysts. Almost any time of the day or night you will still encounter sightseers wandering around the Plaza, pointing and photographing the landmarks as if it had happened that day.

Dallas especially is still full of conspiracy theorists and there are young ones coming up to replace the aging ones who are dying off.

As for me, I imaging I'll be making my annual pilgrimage over to the grassy knoll late one evening to sow verdigris-encrusted rifle brass of unspecific origin to thrill the tourists.

Want to help, Mike? :D

Regards,
Rabbit.

[JohnKSa]

As for me, I imaging I'll be making my annual pilgrimage over to the grassy knoll late one evening to sow verdigris-encrusted rifle brass of unspecific origin to thrill the tourists. :D :D :D :D

I'll never go to Dealey again without a couple of cartridge cases in my pockets. Some 8mm, maybe a little 6.5 Swedish. ;)

[George Hill]

Zapruder Film? THat's nothing. You gotta see it from that other photographer's perspective. It CLEARLY shows who the shooters were.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=615703

[280PLUS]

do i believe that oswald was the only shooter?

yes

do i believe there was a conspiracy behind it?

yes

will i ever know for sure???

no,,,

i was in KINDERGARTEN when he was shot

why a kindergartener still remembers exactly where he was and what he was doing when he found out,,,i have no idea

but ive been listening to this doo doo ever since to the point where i want to

:barf:

oh well,,,gives the talking heads something to do, i guess:rolleyes:

saw one on the discovery channel, the one with the watermelon in the beat up lincoln,,,

the "marksman" they had was about as fumbly with that bolt as you can get,,,but still pulled off the shots,,,and its only (according to discovery) a 190 foot or 63 yard shot at a 10" target

most of the shooters on this board could probably pull that off

and,,,have i gone to dealy plaza and taken pictures or tours?

no,,,i'll pass

[cracked butt]

{There were actually 751 snipers in Dallas that day.

So many bullets hit JFK that he actually vaporized. The "body" that we see is actually a wax dummy.

Lyndon Johnson was the sniper in the Book Repository, J. Edgar Hoover commanded the sniper teams along the overpass.

Zapruder's camera had a 105mm howitzer attached to it, that's why it continues to jostle so much, from the recoil...}

Sounds at least as reasonable as some of the crap spewed in the Oliver Stone movie.:rolleyes: :D



Has anyone ever tried firing a right handed bolt action-any bolt action left handed with the foreend supported? I don't have a carcano- the closest thing I have is a mosin nagant which is at least not the slickest action ever made and tried it. In such a setup, a lefthanded shooter can shoot the rifle amazingly fast vesus a righthanded shooter which the rifle was made for. Try it sometime. AN important fact that most conspiracy nuts leave out is that LHO was left handed.

Head snapping back- I let my frined shoot my garand at a 6" diameter pumpkin using M2 ball ammo. After 3 shots he said that the sights were off because there was no visual indication that the pumpkin was hit- the gourd was 100 yards away. I checked the sights by shooting a milk jug at the same range which exploded in a spectacular manner and handed the rifle back to him. he fired off the rest of the clip at the pumpkin. We walked dow to tcheck it,and found that he had hit it 6 times, the fmj bullets passing completely through without upending or rolling it.
My point is that you cannot judge how a human head is going to react to being struck with a bullet without seeing it happen many times- milk jugs tend to jump, and pumpkins tend to stand still, but I have no experience with shooting human heads, and I doubt most people do either. My best guess as to why his head snapped back was a nervous response- what was left of his brain firing away in absolute shock and suprise.

[Tomac]

Lots of interesting conspiracy theories/facts floating around. A particularly significant item is the extremely lax Secret Service security. SS agents told to stay away from JFK's limo, local military told they weren't needed, motorcade plans destroyed afterwards when called for evidence, building windows left open, etc. Who was pulling the SS strings that day?
Tomac

[FPrice]

"Anyone see the "Red Dwarf" episode that covered this? "Tikka to Ride", I think."

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think I may be one of the few, if not the only other person on this thread who knows what you are talking about with Red Dwarf. Gosh that was a funny series!

[280PLUS]

now THERES a travesty if i ever seen one

:barf:

and for all the actors in it,,,one more,,,

:barf:

[Cosmoline]

My faith in the single shooter theory was renewed last night, as I discuss in a post. I've always wondered why people assume it's easier to nail a moving target with a rifle if it's moving across your field of vision than it would be to hit the same target from above and behind.

I think people just don't understand rifles. To hit JFK at close range from the knoll as the motorcade went by, the shooter would have to time his shot PERFECTLY and he'd likely only get one. By the time he cycled his bolt, the car would be flying down the road, requiring him to shift well to his right.

It's much easier to hit the motorcade from the Book Depository, even though it's further away. The extra distance means little to a rifle.

[Dain Bramage]

The AR-15 theory is obviously bogus. Everyone knows the .223 can't kill a man, even with a head shot. :evil:

On a more serious note, the 'magic bullet' has been covered before. It's not really pristine, it only looks so from the one popular photo that is always shown. Other angles show deformation. And Conally (sp?) and JFK were not sitting directly in line. The limo was modified so the VIP seat in the rear was outboard and higher than the seat in front. There are photos taken that day that show the arrangement.

[stephen_g22]

I watched the History Channel's 'Men who killed Kennedy' and all of them kept talking about a shot from the front and a massive wound in the rear of Kennedy's head. In the Zapruder film it looks like there is a massive gaping wound in the front with blood and brains spilling out. None of the frontal shot folks explain that, they just talk about how the rear wound was doctored up during the autopsy.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/bspatter/Jackie-resp.JPG

Unless there is a huge wound in the back of Kennedy's head to match, this sure looks like a frontal wound to me. Whether it is an entry wound or exit wound, I don't know.

Anyone know how the grassy knoll or storm drain theorists explain this picture?

[Matt G]

When you have several eye witnesses and a PHOTOGRAPH of the sniper on the grassy knoll, its hard to just quote the Warren Commission and say that there was just one shooter, and that we need to get over it.
The simple facts of last nights show were that expert photographic analysis of a picture taken 1/6th of a second after the fatal shot shows a man dressed in a police officers uniform pointing a rifle at the president, with a man in back of him wearing a hardhat and someone dressed in a soldiers uniform in front of them. The smoke "donut" from the weapons muzzle can be clearly seen. Ahhh! Newton has been presented with the Mary Moorman photo!

About 15-20 years ago at a Fort Worth gun show, I met the guy who was first pushing this theory. He had a large, several table display, which included the alleged photo. This thing was worse than trying to see shapes in clouds. Here's the problem with the photo: It was taken with a Polaroid Land camara. There's no negative. The bits of silver in the film were enormous, so the resolution is lousy. Good enough for a snapshot, perhaps, but grainy as heck, when blown up. And blown up? Oh, MY. The "image" of the guy supposedly seen is a blow-up of a copy of a 2.5" B&W Polaroid, blown up to, if I recall, a 3 foot square poster. That, in turn, was blown up still further. The supposed details of the supposed sniper are smaller even than the bits of silver that comprise the image. This would be like receiving a grainy fax of a driver's license photo, and claiming one could blow up the image to see the reflection of the photographer in the eye of the head shot on the DL!

Discovery Channel, which I normally hate, did a nifty bit of experimentation with it. They took a Land Camara and tried it themselves, and got similar bad resolution. They also, interestingly, used a quality 35mm camara with full-sized objective lens, and film that would have been available at the time, and even then, managed only to get only a bare rough outline of the man they planted up by the stockade fence for the experiment.

The supposed halo around the muzzle is bogus for several reason. Though the photo is credited as being taken "at the moment of the shot", the President's head was already reacting. The shot was taken in daylight. Muzzle blast just isn't that visible in daylight, nor lasts that long.

I think anybody who believes that stooge Oswald fired that manlicher rifle three time that rapidly (and that accurately) needs to come look at some prime real eastate I have for sale on the planet mars.
And yet, it's been demonstrated again and again that it can be done. Heck, on the same Discovery Channel show I saw last night, they set a fellow up in a tower at the same distance and angle, shooting an Oswald rifle with the same type of scope, with military ball ammo over a rest made of cardboard boxes, and the guy did it 5 times running, on targets set in a convertable running down a dirt road at the same speeds. His only problem was the occasional failure to fire. That wouldn't be too surprising, given that the ammo and firing pin spring were 40 years older.

The shot was 285 feet. That's just 95 yards, on a target moving 10 to 15 miles per hour. Do we have any hunters here? There's lots of deer that fall to shots like that. I myself have made a second shot at a running deer at a longer distance, standing unsupported. (I thought it was wounded, or would not have made such a shot.)

[moa]

Tonight ABC TV starting at 9 PM Eastern has a two hour program on the assassination. Preview shows they are using new computer animation technology to recreate the shooting from every angle including inside the car. The recreation uses the Zapgruder film as its base. Looks like it might be interesting.

[TrapperReady]

Matt G - Last time I was in Dallas, I stopped by the Book Depository and visited the 6th Floor Museum. When I stood by the window and looked out where the limo had travelled, it became very clear to me that the actual shooting would not have been enormously difficult.

The only possibility I could see from a conspiracy standpoint is how Oswald was able to pick such an absolutely PERFECT ambush position.

[Mike Irwin]

Does anyone have definitive information on the recreation of Oswald's shooting capabilities?

I'm locked into with another person on another board who keeps saying that no one, every, has been able to duplicate Oswald's shooting that day in Dallas.

[Mike Irwin]

"How'd you plan on rigging up that pintle mount to the melon? Could you simulate the spine's offset from the centerline of the head?"

Maybe. That would be difficult, but it could possibly be done with some sort of support harness.

[Mike Irwin]

"Would ball ammo have this type of explosive effect on a head shot?"

It could, yes.


"Sealed records..."

I believe the party line has always been it's been done for the privacy of the family.



"Has anyone ever shot a Mannlicher-Carcano? I have."

Yes. More than one. Quite a few more than one.

They're not all as you describe them. They're not the best bolt action rifle ever invented, but they're not the worst.

[cracked butt]

The shot was 285 feet. That's just 95 yards, on a target moving 10 to 15 miles per hour. Do we have any hunters here? There's lots of deer that fall to shots like that. I myself have made a second shot at a running deer at a longer distance, standing unsupported. (I thought it was wounded, or would not have made such a shot.)

Interestingly enough, when I was driving home from work last night, out of an industrial park, a deer was running alongside the road with me, it cut across the road and followed the curb to the end of the road a block further down. The deer was running at a trot and I clocked it at 20 mph. I normally wouldn't shoot at a running deer, but have at wounded deer. Shooting at one running straight away is much more difficult than shooting one moving right to left, or better yet left to right.


Would ball ammo have this type of explosive effect on a head shot?" It could, yes.

Especially if the bullet picked up bone fragments on the way out.

[TheOtherOne]

You all got me reading up on this and here's what gets me:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/kleins.jpg

The ad Oswald bought the rifle from (3rd down in the left column). I can't tell if it was the $12 one or the $19 one. Now, the prices of all those guns make me sick, but I can understand that with inflation and all.... but what really gets me is that thanks to this whole thing, I'll never be able to order through the mail. :mad:

[TallPine]

but what really gets me is that thanks to this whole thing, I'll never be able to order through the mail.
It's just too bad that there wasn't a law against shooting the President before 1963 .... :rolleyes:

[Frohickey]

In John Ross' book, he describes a competition where the prize is a coke for successfully completing the shooting that LHO was claimed to have done. Is that a real competition?

[Cosmoline]

You can still get an M-C for $100, which my bet is isn't even at pace with inflation.

The Garands and Springfields are another story.

[bountyhunter]

as well as the simple physics of the plume of material ejected from his head pushing it back in a Newtonian response.

Not trying to turn the thread into a physics lesson, but I taught physics in school. The above line of reasoning violates basic physics. The bullet hits the head with a certain amount of momentum and it imparts a percentage of it to the head as it passes through. The material exiting the front of the skull has been given it's forward velocity from the bullet (not the stationary head). The basic head structure also receives some momemtum causing it to rock forward. There is no "Newtonian Principle" requiring the head to snap to the rear in response to the material flying forward from it. That is an erroneous conclusion from Newtons Second law about all actions having a reaction. The head proper does not have a reaction to the loss of mass because it did not provide the velocity to the material exiting, the bullet did.

It could be argued that the bullet passed through from the rear causing the head to rock forward "loading tension" in the neck muscles and then after wards the head rocked back from them untensing. It does not look to me like that is the motion on the film.

An interesting aside learned on a different murder cases: a woman claimed somebody had fired from outside into the house through a window but they found both glass and blood/tissue outside. They concluded she was lying and that the shot had been fired from inside the house.... and she got convicted of murder.

A defense team later re-enacted it and found out: if you fire from the front, some of the material comes flying back out towards you as strange as that seems. They got a new trial and she was acquitted.

In the case of the JFK tape, it could explain the material seen flying forward as the second shot hits the head. The reason is a very high speed bullet entering brain material is "making waves" as it pases through and some waves are rippling backwards away from it. In effect, it creates such a level of "matter compression" some material is blown straight back along the path of the bullet's entry.

[bountyhunter]

Some years back I saw the documentary about the "challenge" to duplicate it. The best shots came and tried and allegedly one person was able to do it. That was one person out of maybe 20, shooting without the pressure of actually killing the president, and he was an expert shot. Look at Oswald's military records and the idea of him doing it under that level of stress is ludicrous.

[bountyhunter]

I watched the History Channel's 'Men who killed Kennedy' and all of them kept talking about a shot from the front and a massive wound in the rear of Kennedy's head. In the Zapruder film it looks like there is a massive gaping wound in the front with blood and brains spilling out. None of the frontal shot folks explain that, they just talk about how the rear wound was doctored up during the autopsy.

I saw the actual autopsy photos. There was a gaping rear wound on the RHS of the skull, but it is not visible in those photos. Every doctor there at the time testified to it and described exactly where it was. The reason it doesn't show: the scalp section "blew free" as the bullet exited and made a large wound. When they took the photos, that scalp was laid back over to mask the size of the rear exit wound.

No question he was shot from the rear. But according to the autopsy doctors, they also concluded he was shot from the front and they said that some one had intentionally repositioned (and maybe sewed on) a section of scalp to hide the fact he was also shot from the front before the photos were taken.

[Cosmoline]

How many seconds did they give in this challenge, though? According to the show, the latest evidence is that eight seconds elapsed, not the three you sometimes hear.

[Dr.Rob]

I'm looking forward to seeing the computer recreation... still don't thinkOswald did it all by himself.

Aside from the magic bullet, Oswald's past is a screwy as any Bond villan's. You couldn't make up a story that wierd and expect people to beleive it.

You guys considering the "direction of the plume of material consider that the car, and Kennedy are still moving forward in relation to the "event".. sort of like spraying a can of paint into a breeze... most of the spray ends up on you.

Just a thought.

Front or rear, the shot blew the side and back of his head open, you can see it in the film and I can't imagine that many doctors being disgreement over so many facts.

[bad_dad_brad]

Rather than debate speculation, which is always difficult to do, everyone bantering about theory, should probably first read two books:

"Case Closed" by Gerald Posner
"Oswald's Tale" by Norman Mailer

After you read these books, I think you will conclude, that Oswald was indeed the lone assassin.

"Case Closed" is fact filled and un-biased. It does chide the Government, expecially the CIA, for being secretive about the case, and that this has fueled a lot of conspiracy theories. Even today, Posner says that the CIA should tell what they know about Oswald and their connection to him. Posner also tackles the Jack Ruby question.

"Oswald's Tale" is a fascinating psycological tale about the man Oswald. After you read it, you will understand perhaps, the why.

The Zapruder film is pretty definitive. All three shots were made in about 8 seconds. The first one missed. The second one hit Kennedy in the back of the neck, exited, and then hit Connally. The third and last was the head shot from behind that killed Kennedy.

And let's not forget, that the bolt on the rifle only had to be operated two times. The first bullet was already chambered. Oswald was a marine. Do you think he would have not had that first bullet already chambered?

Now I have not been to Dealy Plaza, but I have a shooter friend who has, and he has looked right out that infamous window, and he said quite clearly, "I could have made those shots with my eyes closed."

[RobW]

No matter if you think Oswald was the only one or not, there are a lot of questions unanswered or given a total bogus answer, for instance:

Jack Ruby, a dubious "Night-Club" owner, well known in the underworld and the police, got easy access to the police headquaters (he didn't have a press ID!) killed Oswald and gave as the reason for that, he "just want to prevent Mrs. Kennedy from grief". Yeah, right. Conveniently, he dies in prison of cancer.

If you want to know how to make such nice deals, read Mario Puzo's "Godfather". It's fiction, but sometimes fiction can't catch real life!

There are 2 possibilities:

1) all the persons and agencies involved were totally incompetent

2) there was a conspiracy

I know, John W. Booth was the single assasinator of Lincoln :rolleyes:

[Trebor]

Somewhere I have a magazine article that mentions a recreation of the Kennedy shooting done by Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor. I believe the recreation was done the same weekend as one of the Second Chance pin shoots.

IIRC, they built a tower of about the right height and had some sort of dolly system to create a moving target. All of the details on distance, angles, cover, etc, were not 100% accurate, but they were as close as they could come under the circumstances.

They had a Carcano, with a cheap scope and ammo, and had various shooters try to make the shots. They didn't come up with a firm conclustion, but did make some interesting observations. Some shooters found it easier to make the shots using iron sights instead of the scope, and I believe the shooter with the best time (closest to what was believed to be Oswald's time) who made the hits was cross-eye dominant and had some odd advantage on working the bolt because of how he positioned the rifle, which hand he held everything with, etc. I can't remember the exact details, but he was markedly faster than the other shooters.

I wish I could find that article, but I have no idea where it is. Anyone else remember this?

[JohnKSa]

The conspiracy theories are very attractive. That's why I started researching the event.

They're interesting, thought provoking. But when you look at the hard evidence, there isn't any that drives one away from Oswald as the solitary shooter.

I'll go on record right now as saying that a lot of what people believe to be hard facts in this case are absolute bunk.

Here are some facts.

The shot can be made. I watched a guy make all three shots repeatedly on a recreation that aired last night. He made all three shots on his FIRST try and was able to duplicate them repeatedly. Prior to this, there have been at least two other recreations in which shooters have duplicated the shots.

The bullet is far from pristine. It is flattened and bent, missing some lead that was squeezed out of the jacket at the base, and there is a hunk out of the ogive on the opposite side of the picture that is typically shown to support the pristine bullet theory. The 6.5mmCarcano was a relatively slow, but very heavy for caliber bullet and was an amazing penetrator. Based on what I've researched on this caliber and bullet style, I have no problem whatsoever believing that the bullet could do the damage it did and survive in the condition it did.

The bullet was not magic. The magic bullet theorists have Connally in the wrong position. From the film it's clear that he was half turned at the moment of the shot, and from the limo, you can see that he was seated farther inboard and lower than JFK. Recreations show that the bullet travelled in virtually a straight line until it stopped in Connally's thigh.

There was no one shooting from storm drains. The one on the street didn't offer a view of the targets until after all the shots were fired. The one on the left side of the overpass wasn't built until after the shooting. Three men were standing in front of the one on the right side of the overpass and there were people in close proximity.

There is no credible photographic evidence of anyone on the grassy knoll. The photo that is often cited was blown up past the capability of the film to record information. As already mentioned, the particles in the film are bigger than the details that people are saying are evidence.

The third shot came from the back. Autopsy drawings and X-Rays show a clear entrance wound at the top back of the head. It was not visible from anywhere in front of the motorcade and would be very difficult to hit unless the shooter was above the target.

It doesn't make any difference which way Kennedy moved when shot. Bodies are not inert objects like pumpkins and fruit cans. They move and react when stimulated. Brain shots which do not cut the brain stem commonly result in convulsive motion.

By the way, JFK was not reaching for his throat. The motion he made is a textbook involuntary reaction to an upper spinal cord injury. I can't remember the technical term, but if you look at the film, you'll see that his hands are balled up in fists and never come close to his throat. Also, people don't stick their elbows up like that when they reach for their throat. Maybe someone will chime in with the name--I can't recall it.

[Don Galt]

If oswald did it himself, how did he get the motorcade route to be changed at the last minute so that it conveniently went by his job at the schoolbook depository? The route was published in the paper the day before-- and it was a more sensible route-- it went straight rather than turning right and then turning left in front of the depository.

If it was just convenient that the route was changed that morning, how did he know it happend to be changed? Or do you think he went to work with the rifle every morning?

And do you think he got the Secret Service to leave the bulletproof bubble top off the limo by slipping them a $50 bill?

Oswald worked there for quite awhile before kennedy came to dallas... and even if he got the job *after* the visit to dallas was announced, how did he get the the route changed at the last minute?

And why did Ruby shoot him? And why was Ruby able to slip in with a gun anyway? Either Ruby did it at the behest of the mob, or he did it for some other reason. IF the mob, then that indicates conspiracy. IF for some other reason, what reason was it? Killing oswald is mighty convenient, especially with him mouthing off about being a patsy.

And the route change, and removal of the bubble top are very convenient as well.

I think the re-creations where all three shots are fired are giving the rifleman more time than the zapruder film indicates there was between the magic bullet and the head shot.

And finally, ABC News is telling us right now that it was Oswald, could only have been Oswald, and ignores all the inconsitencies. IF that's not proof of a conspiracy, what is!?!! "Peter Jennings Reports" but doesn't inquire.

[JohnKSa]

People clearly knew where the motorcade was going ahead of time. They can be seen lining the road in the film. I don't know if Oswald thought it was going past his workplace when he left that morning, but I do think he was planning to try to get a shot regardless of where he had to set up.

JFK wanted the bubble left off. That's pretty well documented.

Oswald worked at the depository for a few months before the shooting. He didn't get the job so he could shoot JFK, in fact, he didn't get the job at all. A friend of his wife's helped him find it. IMO, the chance to shoot JFK pretty much fell into his lap. According to his wife, he got the rifle to assassinate another political figure but failed. When he got a "second chance" he made it good.

Ruby was a real fruitloop with a reputation for having a very volatile temper and known to carry a gun. He was at the police station often because he felt that knowing the police would help him keep his strip-joint open. Also, if you watch the film, you will see that it was anything but an exclusive event--the place was packed. Employees indicate that he frequently went out of his way in an attempt to keep a good relationship with the local police and as such would have been a familiar face at the station. He told his brother after the fact that he couldn't stand to see Oswald smiling after what he had done and shot him on impulse. Although he had a criminal past, there was no evidence linking him to organized crime.

The timing on the recreation shoots was developed from the Zapruder film.

Most people have developed their opinions based on movies and what they have heard--a lot of that gets repeated over and over until many think it's truth. For those who want to know more than that there's a lot of written information, and while a lot of it is pure BS, after you spend enough time with the topic it gets easier to see what makes sense and what doesn't.

Like I said before. There are lot of interesting questions and anomalies--but not a single shred of hard evidence that would disprove the conclusion that Oswald was the shooter and acting alone.

[Don Galt]

I've attempted to back up my statement about the route being changed, but I cannot find evidence to do so. I may have been misinformed.

He would have had an easier shot when the car was coming directly toward him, rather than going past him and away.... but that's just suspicious, maybe he had a failure.

Anyway, how could oswald have known the bullet top would be taken off?

I've just seen a recreation that shows the shots happening much more slowly than I'd previously thought.

But the fence on the grassy knoll is a better place to shoot from, and there are witnesses who say they saw people there and one who says he saw a two man shooting team.

[444]

"By the way, JFK was not reaching for his throat. The motion he made is a textbook involuntary reaction to an upper spinal cord injury. I can't remember the technical term, but if you look at the film, you'll see that his hands are balled up in fists and never come close to his throat. Also, people don't stick their elbows up like that when they reach for their throat. Maybe someone will chime in with the name--I can't recall it."

Decorticate Posturing

Decorticate posture is an abnormal posturing indicated by rigidity, flexion of the arms, clenched fists, and extended legs. The arms are bent inward toward the body with the wrists and fingers bent and held on the chest. Decorticate posture indicates damage to the corticospinal tract.

[DIETRYN]

I just don't see it. If JFK got shot from behind, why didn't the bullet take his face off ? That shot to the head made his head fly back and to the left, this tell's me that it came from the front. We all know entry wounds are tiny and exit wounds are much larger. This comment is from my uncle, who has spent time in Korea, and has done his fair share of "target practice".

[444]

"why didn't the bullet take his face off "

Have you seen the pictures of him lying on the slab ?

[JohnKSa]

DIETRYN,

The impact was right at the top right of his head. Just an inch or two higher and it would have missed all together. His head was tilted forward and left at the time so it didn't go through his face.

Don,

I can't remember the details, but I recall a pretty convincing explanation of why the shot on the approaching motorcade would have been less desirable.

As for the bullet top, my guess is that the public probably didn't think much about such things in that era. Or maybe LHO figured that a rifle bullet would penetrate--dunno.

As for the witnesses, there were pretty much witnesses to support every scenario you can imagine. IIRC, there were several people who were certain that no one shot from the grassy knoll to go along with the few who said they thought someone did. The best example of this is LHO shooting the police officer. There were 4 witnesses and they couldn't even agree which direction LHO was walking just before the shooting...

[Don Galt]

As to the face being blown off-- we would have seen that in the zapruder film, but we didn't.... which also indicates a shot from the side or front....or, actually, side rear, but not nearly as far back as the depository building.

According to the recreation I just saw, the second shot from the depostiory building would have taken off his whole face, as it would have been directly behind.

[TheeBadOne]

What JohnKSa said.

[Sergeant Bob]

Most people are really crappy witnesses. Ask 100 different people what they saw, get 100 different stories. Unless you are conciously making an effort to chronicle an event, you probably won't have it quite right.

I once saw a car chase with shots fired. The chase car (the one doing the shooting) tried to take a turn too fast and ran into a car sitting at a traffic light. It backed up, then proceeded to chase the other car again.
When the police got there, I told them I had seen it from my balcony.
White Cadillac being chased by a gray primered Chevy. He asked me "are you sure it wasn't green?"
Duh....nope, not sure. Unless you're concentrating, the power of suggestion is pretty strong.

[JohnKSa]

Don,

At the moment of the head shot, JFK was slumped over (as if looking down into the car) and leaning slightly to his left.

It would be pretty difficult to blow his face off unless you shot him from the side.

Autopsy drawings and X-Rays showed an entrance wound on the upper right back of his head. If you can picture his position, you can see that it's almost impossible to hit that spot from anywhere other than behind and above the car.

I gave up trying to untangle all the autopsy BS from various sources. There was lots of stupid stuff done with regard to the autopsy--just no other way to put it. Some of it appeared to be petty turf wars, some of it contingency operations, some of it people just wanting to get in on the "action". But there was some hard evidence that came out of it (X-Rays are pretty conclusive) and all of that hard evidence points to the head shot coming from above and behind.

The flap opened up because the bullet didn't hit the middle of the skull and exit the other side. It hit so that it just caught the upper right back of the skull and exited the right top side of the skull. A neat entry wound, but the bullet hit the side of the skull from the inside at a pretty oblique angle which blew out the side the head.

Again, none of that makes sense unless you check the film and verify the position of JFK at the shot. Slumped over as if looking down into the car and at the same time leaning to his left.

[Cosmoline]

What strikes me is how much EASIER it would have been to fire from LHO's position in the depository than from the knoll. The knoll is closer, but that's actually a problem when you're shooting a rifle at a target moving across your field of vision. It requires a total readjustment for every shot.

[moa]

Does anybody know why Jackie Kennedy climbed up on the trunk of the limo after the final shot?

[Cosmoline]

As I understand it, she had most of JFK's brains on her. It was a natural reaction.

[teppo-shu]

Does anybody know why Jackie Kennedy climbed up on the trunk of the limo after the final shot?

She was attempting to retrieve a piece of her husband's skull. She said this herself in remarks after the fact.

[moa]

Teppo, I think you are right. I seem to recall that now as I visit the more cobweb cluttered part of my memory. All of this brings back a lot of 40 year old memories, such as:

- standing on Wisconsin Ave. in D.C as the Navy ambulance slowly drove by all lit up inside with Jackie sitting by her husband's casket. They were on their way to the Bethesda Naval Hospital. Still not sure why they took that route from Andrews Air Force base which is on the other side of town. Except maybe they had changed there minds about how to handle the body at the last minute.

We had gone up to the corner of Wisc. and Harrison Street because we heard that Gawlers Funeral Home at that intersection was going to handle the burial. Even had a small bus load of Marines there in dress blues. We only lived a block away from Gawlers.

- The next day, Saturday and that part of NW Washington was a ghost town. I think everybody must have been glued to their TV watching the news.

- On Sunday, watching TV just as Ruby shot Oswald.

- On Monday, standing on the grounds of the Lincoln Memorial with a terrific close view of the funeral procession slowly marching and driving by to the sound of muffled drums and Cesar Franck's funeral dirge. Got to see many of the world leaders or their representatives, including LBJ, quite close up. And you could tell the Secret Service was carrying some big weapons under their top coats.

[JohnKSa]

p587 of David Lifton's book "Best Evidence" shows a very clear picture of the entrance wound as I described it.

Jackie's story is borne out by Connally's wife. She states that after the third shot she heard Jackie say "They've killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand." After watching the film, I suspect Jackie was talking to the SS Agent who jumped up on the trunk of the limo.

[Mike Irwin]

"By the way, JFK was not reaching for his throat. The motion he made is a textbook involuntary reaction to an upper spinal cord injury. I can't remember the technical term, but if you look at the film, you'll see that his hands are balled up in fists and never come close to his throat. Also, people don't stick their elbows up like that when they reach for their throat. Maybe someone will chime in with the name--I can't recall it."


Thorburn's Position.

[JohnKSa]

Thorburn's Position.
Yes, that's what I was trying for. A special case of the decorticate posture that 444 mentioned.

Thanks--I'll have to write it down somewhere.

[Don Galt]

The problem with this topic is that htere is no standard for evidence in the public.

Peter Jennings makes some unsubstantiated claim, and someone on here will say "its been PROVEN that...."

People have their beliefs and they cannot seperate their beliefs from what they *know*.


I'm sitting here with no theory of what happened, merely pointing out problems with the official story, and other stories as they come up.

And the response is "Well, so and so has been PROVEN" or "There's no EVIDENCE for that".

When in reality, what the person is actually saying is that "that disagrees with my BELIEFS so it must be WRONG."

JohnKSa has provided counter argument. That's not what I'm talking about. But even he has made claims that he hasn't backed up, and those are what I am talking about (but more from others who have never provided any counter argument.)

This topic can't even be addressed decently in a TV special, let alone in a forum where most of the participants are, frankly, uninformed.

People believe what the government tells them to believe, generally. And arguing with them can get pointless quickly.

To stick to objective reality, unless you've been in dealy plaza, its hard for me to point out actual facts that you can verify--- cause otherwise you're going on what you were told by someone.

Anyway, if you get a chance... go there and look over the scene for yourself. Its well worth it.

But also, please think about what you know and what you don't know. Someones claims are not proof.

[JohnKSa]

Don,

A lot of things have been discussed on this thread. It would be incredibly time consuming for me to sort through the 30 or so books on the topic that I own to try to cite sources on every single statement I made. To complicate the situation, I have read a good many books on the topic that I do not currently own and watched a good many documentaries that I do not have on tape.

Besides, in all fairness, I did the research to satisfy my own curiousity, if you have a lot of questions, the same material is available to you as was to me.

Although I believe that Oswald was the only shooter and was not part of any conspiracy, I'm not so foolish as to say that the lone gunman theory is the only possible solution.

I do feel quite safe in saying that all of the hard evidence that is available points to LHO as the lone gunman, and in further saying that there is not a single piece of hard evidence that can disprove that he was the lone gunman.

I have also had some limited dealings with the government, and find it extremely improbable that a secret as big as an assassination conspiracy could be kept for 40 years. Also, as time passes, I find it more and more improbable that anyone who has such a strong and unfading motive to keep the secret could have maintained for 40 years the power to keep it.

[dawg23]

I read the first page, then skipped to the end to post this. So if it's already been said, please excuse me.

There is one basic question/issue that clearly points to a conspiracy/coverup:

Why was the evidence and testimony that the Warren Commmission (supposedly) examined sealed for 50 years ? Why can't we see it ?

[pesticidal]

Might want to check your math. It's been 40 years...

;)

[kentucky bucky]

I saw Jesse Ventura interviewed on a news show today and he said it all in a simple statement. To paraphrase....They (government investigators) expect me to believe that a "lone nut" killed the president, and a "lone nut" killed the "lone nut"..........nuff sed

[dawg23]

Pesticidal:

You might want to check the Warren Commission order. It was sealed for 50 years, and most has not yet been unsealed.

[pesticidal]

Sorry. I mis-read your post...

[moa]

Something else that is hard to understand is why Oswald was not arrested and tried for treason when he returned home from the Soviet Union. He renounced his citizenship, and apparently told the American State Dept. that he was going turn over US Navy radar codes to the Soviets. Oswald was a Marine radar operator in Japan. As a result the Navy went and changed all their radar codes.