[Skunkabilly]

Say one is going from one extreme to the other--an AR-15 with 30 rounds to an M1 Garand with 8 rounds.

Would you consider this a 'fair' trade? Does magazine capacity matter that much for a defensive rifle?

How about going from a 20-round M1A down to a 10-round SLB2000K, both in .308?

I may 'download' mag capacity to find a rifle I 'like' more, and it's more politically correct, and got that HK polygonal barrel. Your thoughts?

[Bostonterrier97]

Mag Capacity does not really matter much..since a Civilian's ammo supply will be quite limited..suppressive fire is out of the question.

Shot placement is more important. I think that with an M1 Garand any civilian would be very well armed.

The 165 grain black tip 30-06 ammunition is capable of penetrating though cover that would defeat 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm.

[Frohickey]

Magazine capacity depends on the type of ammunition in the rifle as well as if you have support of another shooter available as you have to reload.

Shot placement and odds of hitting is also a prime concern.

Back in the musket days, armies fought in massed lines at close range because one soldier with a musket against another soldier with another musket, both in foxholes, you'd expend both countries' bullet and powder supply before you run out of soldiers. :D

With rifles and especially with repeater rifles, massed lines at close range pretty much disappeared, and now you have fast raids with shooting on the move.

With semi-auto and full-auto machineguns, fast raids are not as effective, so you have multiple units covering each other as they outflank an enemy position.

With a 30 round AR-15, and multiple magazines in pouches, I could afford to send a few rounds downrange even if I don't have a COM shot. With a 8 round M1 Garand, I'm definitely making sure each one connects, because if I miss with shot#6, BG#8 might get me.... well, maybe not... thats what bayonets are for. :evil:

[3 gun]

Would really depend for me on what/who I was fighting. A mob/riot like in LA a few years back, I'd want 30 mags with or without backup. Against a small group of "raiders" in a SHTF scenario I'd be very happy with 8rd en-blocs. Guess it boils down to how "organized" the attacker would be. The more a mob, the bigger the mag I'd want. More a squad than a mob, give me "firepower." Guess the best happy medium would be 20rds in a M1a.

[Hkmp5sd]

Yes. And I ain't givin' up nuthin'!

[AK103K]

The M1's a great rifle, its only downside is the en bloc clips. They are starting to be harder to find and more expensive. That and the fact it chucks them out of the rifle when empty makes them even less desirable. Sooner or later your going to have a single shot.
I'd worry less about being politically correct, and get the gun you want, reguardless of mag capacity. If you take the time to learn how to use it and adjust your tactics to it, just about anything will work. Especially at the range. :)

[critter]

AK103K said it! Did you notice? TACTICS!!!!!!!!

[Gary H]

What is it that you are defending against?

Have the North Koreans invaded?
Do you live near a port city and a nuke just went off?
Natural disaster isolated you and your family?
Have riots come to your neighborhood?
Has the federal government gone mad?

In my opinion the nuke, riot and natural disaster scenarios are the only likely events. They are much less likely than having an attorney ruin you and your family, but they are possible. So, what are you doing to protect your family from likely problems? Do you have potassium iodide pills available? Do you have dried food, water and such stuff?

You won't trade one rifle for another. You will buy them all:)

[jar]

Yes.

But it sure is nice to have a selection sitting on the wall. That way you grab what is appropriate for the situation.

IMHO I would like to have:

a long range rifle even if limited capacity.

a shotgun.

a medium capacity (20-30 round mags or 10 round mags with some rapid reload capability such as stripper clips).

a medium capacity general purpose rifle such as a 30-30 lever gun.

at least one honker, spritzer type round like the 30-06 or 8mm for penetration.

[Freedom in theSkies]

Civilian Battle Rifles?

Skunk, I think you just invented a new classification...

[Joe Demko]

Few owners are skilled enough in marksmanship, fieldcraft, and tactics for it to matter, I think. Even those who were in the military, for the most part, are trained in how to do things the military way. As John Q., you aren't going to have much in the way of combined arms support. Ask somebody who actually fought as part of a guerilla unit against a better armed and supplied foe. He might know for sure.

[El Rojo]

In simple terms, yes the more the merrier. Why? If you opponent shoots at you 8 times and has to reload, but you have a 30 round magazine, while he is reloading, you are not. I know ideally you wouldn't want to take 29 shots to hit someone, but from simplistic thinking, the less time you have to spend reloading, the better. So that means two things, whatever you have, practice your reloads from all positions and have the largest and most practical magazine you could have.

[twoblink]

The Garands were great guns to go prone with, because no 20-rounders were sticking out from under it... I prefer a 10-rounder for just that reason, the 20's get in the way.. Of course, as a libertarian, I'm PO'ed that I don't have a choice in the PRK, but I digress..

We WON the war with 8-round en-blocs and so I would think they are sufficient... The Japanese ran when they heard the PING!!! and anybody that didn't want a '06 where the sun don't shine, did the same and will do the same again..

Skunk, I think 10-rounders are just fine... But if you are paranoid (which you are) move out of the PRK, and buy a 5 rounder, 10 rounder, and 20 rounder for your M1A and find out for yourself..

I like the 5-rounders as they sit almost flush, and I can use them for hunting!! here Bambi!!

[Hkmp5sd]

We WON the war with 8-round en-blocs and so I would think they are sufficient

We won the war with 8-round en-bloc clips when the standard infantry rifle for EVERY other county in the world was a bolt action. Taint so no more.

[Joe Demko]

We WON the war with 8-round en-blocs

and armor support, and air support, and plentiful artillery, and an enormous navy, and the greatest manufacturing capability on the planet, and not having to actually fight any part of the war on the CONUS. M1 was, and is, a great weapon. It is not the reason we won WWII.

[Will Fennell]

If Skunky invented this new classification, is would have to be the

Tactical Civilian Battle Rifle:rolleyes:

The importance of magazine capacity is 1) dependent on the marksmanship abilities of the operator.....2) dependent on the effectiveness of the rounds fired.

[T.Stahl]

Well, honestly, I feel that the ten round mag in my SL8 is less adequate than the ten round mag in my Enfield. Looks like I'll have to spend the 90EU on 30 round G36-mags one day. ;)

[Smoke]

I have High cap and smaller mags for my AR.

If the hordes are storming the gates I'd like the high caps. For most other events (and the more likely ones) 8 rounds is enough. Might want extra mags though...just in case;)

[jacks308]

I'm gonna do the politically correct thing and land in the middle of the choices :uhoh: Therefore , my CBR is going to be an M1A with a twenty round mag :) AND , just to make the gun haters really hate it , gonna carry four more loaded mags:D !! Question then is , how many bandoleers do I halfta carry to make 'em go:cuss:

Yeah it's heavy but unless home is unlivable , it's still home and it's still ours :scrutiny:

Jack

[Dave R]

Can you accomplish more with 30 rounds of 5.56 X 45 than you can with 8 rounds of 30.06? Or 20 rounds of .308? That is the questions.

In an urban uprising, I might go for the biggest mag available. For many other situations, fewer, bigger rounds might be the right answer.

[natedog]

i would think that 20 rounds of .308 would be better than 8 rounds of . 30-06, cause the .308's almost as powerful. also, aren't enbloc clips being manufactured by springfield, now that they're making the garand again?

[sixgun_symphony]

Urban mob taking over the streets?

Just shoot some of the bigger baddies and watch the rest of the mob run away.

[biere]

Some feel only an ak with a 75 round drum is enough. I don't consider an ar and a 30 round magazine the limit because there are 40 round mags around for an ak also. The only 50 rounders I have seen were welded up and I did not know how reliable they might be. And yes there are 100 round drums for the ar and ak, but a 75 round drum for a hundred bucks seems more affordable to me.

I prefer 308 and 20 round mags.

Personally I tell anyone if they learn their weapon well, most anything can and will get the job done.

Me with a new rifle at the range, I have trouble using new to me sights. I have to learn how this thing recoils and work on follow up shots. Then I also have to learn how best to reload.

The older guy with a rifle he has owned for years and has a few thousand rounds through. He knows how it will need to be brought back on target for a 2nd shot and he is so smoooooth on reloads that he is scary fast. All this with a garand. :D

[Still Learning]

I was totally comforatable with my deer rifles including Ruger 77s and a Savage 99 in .308. Today I carry a Bushmaster simply because i like it. Would go back to the other rifles in a heartbeat. Carry what you like.

[SIGarmed]

I'd say magazine capacity is important.
If it wasn't our military and police forces would be using the ten rounders that the liberal fascists have so readily forced upon us.

[labgrade]

Absolutely cannot get into anything that can't be topped off, so the en blocs are out for me. & that's from one who has never even shot one. Just can't get into that concept somehow.

"Defensive rifle" seems somewhat contradictory to me somehow although I can go there ..... & have one. :rolleyes:

"Defensive" screams shotgun here.

Far as a "layin' it down" rifle, my old 760 pump in .30-06 & some mags will do that just dandy enough.

[Oleg Volk]

Large mags are especially important for civvies -- few of us wear mag pouches on a regular basis. Grab a rifle with one mag in it and that's all you might get. Also, manual dexterity goes south in combat (esp. if not trained well) or in the cold, etc. -- having humped AK/AR/M14/Mauser/Enfield around TN hills, I much prefer 20-30rd mags to 5-10...too many times when reloading was awkward or slow to effect.

[Onslaught]

From my POV, specifically in the honest to goodness "Civilian Battle Rifle" role, mag capacity IS important...

If this rifle is indeed for your protection in case of civil unrest, which scenario would you more likely enconter where you would NEED to protect your family, home, and person with that rifle... a mob of 50 people with weapons varying from pitchfork to 12 gauge busting through your doors and windows because you have food and they don't, or 10 well armed and organized individuals taking up covered positions 75 yards away and opening fire on your home?

Barring government conspiracy paranoia, I can only imagine scenario number one. Therefore, I would choose a rifle that would perform as well as possible in S1. As a side benefit, such a rifle would still be readily adaptable for S2, although it may not be the absolute most effective choice.

Since neither S1 or S2 are all that likely in any event... I think quick mag changes are a very good second choice to a large capacity mag. So if you like the SL8... go for it! But not just for PC sake PLEASE! Politically Correct mostly just means "saying what we want you to say; doing what we tell you to do".... I do NOT play that way. Buy what you want and be happy :D

[T.Stahl]

Well, my SL8 will accept 30rd G36 mags, with a slight modification to the mags. They are just so ... uuh ... pricey. :what:

[Redlg155]

Everyone feels a certain comfort in having a plentiful supply of ammo. Sure, someone could say they felt comfortable with a lower capacity weapon, but you can bet they have spare magazines close at hand.

Good Shooting
RED

[Skunkabilly]

If things really got that bad I'd run away to Pulaski, Tennessee, and get some REAL firepower and friends that actually know how to shoot.

I'm thinking with an HK SLB2000 with the side of the receiver being flat, I'm going to put a piece of industrial strength velcro on the receiver and stick the mags on there and on the stock, like the sidesaddle of a shotgun. Maybe I can have 10 in the mag, and 40 more rounds hanging on the gun.

Something to try out since I don't go tactical around the house with my magpouches on, even if some of you think I do!

[444]

If you need eight rounds or less to solve the problem, an M1 will work. If you need eight rounds or less to solve the problem, an AR will work and you have 12 more rounds on tap in case something else crops up.

[T.Stahl]

What does the SLB2000 and 10rd mags cost in the USA?
Here the SLB2000K in .308 costs 1329EU and 10rd mags cost 53EU.

Are HK SL7s available in the USA?

[DrDremel]

The biggest reason to have the high capacity magazine is the cost of surplus magazines. For some rifles they are as cheap as $10 even as low as $3. Nobody is going to make a new mag for less than $10 no matter what the capacity.

[Bostonterrier97]

I believe that 10 round HK SL7 mags are going for about $85 US dollars. Click Here for Price (http://www.ammoclip.com/S/sl-7.htm)

For some reason the HK SL7 isn't imported here...which is too bad because it looks like a very nice rifle.

http://www.hkpro.com/sl7helmet.jpg

We make do with our M1A's (M14's)
http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/rifles/SuperMatch.jpg

Our FALs..
http://www.dsarms.com/images/sa58standardw.gif

And our AR15's...
http://www.armalite.com/shared/images/m15a2_400.gif

[sixgun_symphony]

If we are talking large mobs of looters pouring out of the slums in a civil disturbance, then I say no problem.

Give me any deer rifle.

Most rioters are not that brave. Shoot a few and the rest will flee.

[Skunkabilly]

I would love an SL7. 10 round mags and parts in general are a pain to find.

Too bad they don't make them, or SL6's any more. They're politically correct HK93s and 91s.

T Stahl, I called HK USA and they don't know when theyre going to import the SLB2000s in .308 :rolleyes:

More like SLB2003.

[Nero Steptoe]

"Civilian Battle Rifles.."

OxyMORON, if there's ever been one!

[CAP]

My civilian ammo supply supply won't be limited! :D
That's the reason to buy in bulk now.