[ElToro]

I use CLP.. nary a prob, but then again im not subjecting my rifle to fine dusty sand...

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/investigators/wabc_investigators_111803gunlube.html

By Jim Hoffer
(New York-WABC, November 18, 2003) — In a four-month investigation that reaches from the sands of Iraq to the halls of the Pentagon, we found that weapons given to tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers may not work in the desert. All because of a defective product.

And it could be putting American troops at risk. The Investigators' Jim Hoffer is here with his findings.

The key to surviving any war is to have a weapon that works. To that end a good, reliable gun lubricant is critical.

But our investigation has found that a lubricant supplied by the military may be actually causing guns to jam. What's worse, soldiers say they were blocked from getting a better lubricant at a time when they needed it the most.

A Purple Heart does little to heal the aching heart of a mother who's lost her son to war.

Arlene Walters, Mother: "He was conscientious about everything."

Sgt. Donald Walters was in the same convoy as Private Jessica Lynch when Iraqis ambushed it, killing Walters and 10 other soldiers. A Pentagon report on the attack shows that many of the soldiers could barely fight back because of multiple "weapons malfunctions."

Pfc. Jessica Lynch: "When we were told to lock and load. That's when my weapon jammed."

The report suggests their weapons failed perhaps because of "inadequate individual maintenance". In other words, the Army says that the soldiers may have neglected to clean their guns.

Arlene Walters: "That shouldn't happen to everybody. It seems that it's a fault of something that they are using not the fault of the soldier that he didn't clean the gun."

Ret. Lt. Col. Robert Kovacic, Firearms Trainer: "They would stop and jam."

Kovacic, a retired lieutenant colonel who trained thousands of soldiers for the Iraqi invasion, says this grieving mother's suspicions are right on target.

Ret. Lt. Col. Robert Kovacic: "Those weapons if properly lubricated will work better than anybody else's. But they have to be properly lubricated, CLP is not the proper lubrication."

Col. Kovacic contacted Eyewitness News outraged that the military was equipping soldiers with a government-issued lubricant known as CLP.

Ret. Lt. Col. Robert Kovacic: "It didn't work when I was a tank commander and it's not working now."

Eyewitness News obtained a copy of a general's "lessons learned" report which details weapons performance in Iraq. The report says soldiers repeatedly stated that "CLP was not a good choice for weapon's maintenance", claiming it "attracted sand to the weapon."

We heard similar complaints about the lubricant from some New Jersey Marine reservists back from Iraq:

Corporal Steven Gentle, Montclair NJ: "I used it as little as possible.

Jim Hoffer: "You used it as little as possible? Why?"

Corporal Steven Gentle: "Because the CLP attracted the sand. It made the sand stick to the weapon and clot up, causing the weapon to jam."

In telephone conversations and e-mails from soldiers we heard numerous complaints about CLP. One sergeant told me it is a commonly known fact that the military-issued gun lubricant doesn't work in the desert. We've learned that some soldiers have been so desperate for a lubricant that works they're writing their families for help.

Art Couchman, Father [reading from letter]: "'Dad, that Militec is working great!' ..."

Art Couchman sent his son, a soldier in Iraq, a commercial lubricant called Militec. A firearms trainer for police in New York, Couchman became quite concerned when his son told him that the military-issued lubricant attracted dirt and sand to his gun. That's when Couchman sent him bottles of Militec.

In a recent letter, his son thanks his dad for the shipment of Militec, calling the lube, "pretty amazing stuff."

Art Couchman: "I think it could probably save some lives if they had more of this stuff."

Even that "lessons learned" report put out by the Pentagon states that soldiers considered "Militec to be a much better solution for lubricating weapons" than the military's CLP.

And now many are questioning why just as the war began, the military cancelled all troop orders for Militec.

Brad Giordani, Militec: "They were unable to get the product after the orders were cancelled."

The commercial lubricant's inventor says he knows why. Because the military invested millions of dollars developing CLP, Brad Giordani says Army bureaucrats feared their product would be outshined.

Brad Giordani: "(The orders) were cancelled by civilians within the Defense Department that realized our orders were getting to be such large quantities that if they would have allowed these orders to go through we would now be the standard lubricant within the army."

The Army declined an interview but in a statement to U.S. admits that in the middle of the war, it stopped filling orders for Militec. It doesn't explain why.

The Army says Militec is now available, and further states that because of "mixed reports on the performance ... of lubricants" it plans to "rapidly evaluate ... and test" various products for possible future use.

Colonel Kovacic says Militec is already proven in desert combat. And as long as CLP remains the government product of choice, he says, then that's what most troops will get, leaving the better lube on the shelf and soldiers lives on the line.

Ret. Lt. Col. Robert Kovacic: "There's a better product. I say we give the kids the best we can give them. I'm telling you CLP is not the best weapons lubricant, they even said that in a report."

For nearly seven months, the military blocked soldier's orders for the rival Militec. Only in October, in the middle of our investigation, did the Army again begin to fill orders for Militec.

[JimJD]

You know, I keep on hearing about stuff like this.
If it's true, it's a pretty sad state of affairs...
I've been told by people I know/friends in the past and present, that when they spent time in Iraq and the surrounding region, CLP kept on failing them.
I wonder if any of them are using Militec now...

[Joe Demko]

This reads suspiciously like more of Militec's own shilling their product.

[treeprof]

Yey ANOTHER Militec advert? Some "investigation" - Couchman's comments come from Militec's website:

http://www.militec1.com/mildocs/PointOfContact.html

where they also have a nice link to this story.

[Joe Demko]

If the owners of Militech are genuinely concerned that CLP is killing our soldiers, why didn't they just send the boys their product for free? I will never buy anything these effing ghouls market.

[mete]

The military does do dumb things at times . I had lots of experience with a poor lube for helicopters during viet nam. The basic thing in a sand environment is that; sand + oil = lapping compound. This has been proven many times , in every desert war and even for civilians inthe Mt ST Helena aftermath. Guns jam and guns wear out fast. The solution is to use a dry lube or no lube at all.

[Rebel Gunman HK]

Whats the differnce between the two? If they are both wet lubes I would think that they would both attract dust. Does Militec not attract dust? I live in the Desert so it might be good to know. I dont like to get my Ar in the sand & have never been out when it has been dusty. So Ive never had probs yet. How good are the dry lubes in this enviroment?

[bountyhunter]

First let me say I use Militec grease and liquid and think they are the slickest lubes around. That said, I am 100% convinced that they would do no better in a sandy environment than any other type of liquid oil. A dry lube would be best, but Militec does not even make one.

FWIW, this report has been hitting the forums for weeks and it has been thoroughly discredited. The wepoans failures are true, the conclusion that Militec would have saved the day is false. If I was there I'd try an evaporating lube with teflon carrier like Mag Slick, but switching to a different oil isn't going to do jack.


BTW, Militec got a black eye over this because apparrently they posted it on their website and it was later determined to be unfounded. It's too bad because Militec makes a great product and gives big discounts to verterans on the prices (which I appreciate).

[444]

I find it hard to believe that a weapon that malfunctions due to sand in the action would work OK if only you were using a different lubricant. I have nothing to base this on, but it seems logical. Obviously with moving parts, the increased friction causes malfunctions, and having a lubricant reduces friction, but it can only do so much. Any "wet" lubricant whether it be oil, synthetic oil, or grease is going to have sand sticking to it possibly making the problem worse.


I posted this on another thread already, but I found it interesting. I got SIRUS satilite radio installed in my pick up the other day. I was driving around yesterday listening to a show about elite units of the German Army during WWII on A&E. They interviewed a vet of the Afrika Corp, and the first thing he said was that they had to clean their weapons several times a day due to the dust and blowing sand. It appears that there is nothing new under the sun. Sixty years ago, even with bolt action rifles, armies fighting in the desert had problems keeping their weapons running. IMO this is just one of the rules of the game. Yes, I think some weapons are better than others in these conditions, but I don't think there is a cure-all for the problem. Any mechanical device that has moving parts will have problems if not kept clean and lubricated. Again, I dont' know the answer, but it would seem to be either to not have the weapon exposed to sand and dust or to constantly (several times a day) strip the rifle and wipe the sand out of it.

[Stinkyshoe]

What about a graphite based lubricant? Like the stuff they use for door locks. I know it would leave a bad black residue, but maybe it would be a "dry" alternative?
Ss

[Byron]

I have been writing an infanrty sgt. He was in Afganastan and in Iraq almost a year. I questioned him of any problems with his rifle. He advised none. He keeps it clean as should anyone, combatant or not. I did not specically ask about CLP but will follow up on that. Byron

[Penforhire]

Golgo, what makes Militec "ghouls" on this subject? If they are highlighting a real problem they should be praised, not boycotted.

Everyone knows sloppy-action AK's are a more reliable weapon in sandy environments. Should AK manufacturers send our boys free rifles too?

[Joe Demko]

They are ghouls because they are tryong to feed on corpses. Specifically, corpses of US soldiers they claim died from the government NOT buying Militech. If the management at Militech is actually concerned about the poor boys on the front lines, then nothing is stopping them from sending the product to them gratis. That isn't their concern though. Their concern is making a buck, specifically through a nice fat government contract. Hence, these spurious news stories.

[JimJD]

I was just over at the Militec website.
They have a link that states:

"Military/Government Samples, Please specify quantity and urgency "
That does'nt sound too shabby!
Maybe they're not allowed to send case loads to our people, but if our people request a sample or their friends and family... that could be the workaround against all of the red tape.

All of this talk has made me send away for a free sample of their grease and "oil". Can't wait to test it out. I know people and family who have used Militec, and they seem to hold it in high regard.

For anyone who has used it... I am under the impression that the "oil", once applied to metal and "absorbed", can be wiped off and still have it's lubricating properties. Is that a kind of "dry" lubricant?

[Wildalaska]

One Marine Corp veteran of GuadalCanal told me that when he woke up in the am, he cleaned his weapon. When taking a break from marching...cleaned his weapon. After chow, cleaned his weapon. Before bed, cleaned his weapon. After shooting, clean his weapon.

It always worked.

WildscrubitAlaska

[sm]

I'm with Gogo-13.
Fast search , just here on THR:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=30533&highlight=Militech

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=32250&highlight=Militech

Go to other Forums and hit a quick search and mulitple of the same.
I won't get into weapon design.
I will however agree Weapons Inspection ,Maintenance, is critical for troops and anyone in harms way in any environ...be it Military LEO, HRT, SWAT...etc. Somtimes Mother Nature is a harsh mistress- period.

Do I believe some solvents, lubes work better than others? Yep. Do I believe there is one "Holy Grail" , "Wonder Product" , " Wonder Lube, or "Mother's Milk" ? Nope.

Just because the/or branch of Military , LEO community uses a product, Does not mean IT IS neccessarily the best. Otherwise we could say THE best Vehicles "period" are HumVee and Crown Vics. Everybody should ONLY drive these--huh?

I will never send off for, buy or use Militech.

I feel this way about some other products that "tout heavy on forums". I'd rather use the oil in my crankcase first...having actually done this to prove a point- I know guns do work without Wonder lubes. Horrors huh?

THR doesn't have a "gummit contract". THR does not have itself listed as "approved" by the gummit. THR seems to work fine for me...

Nope , I didn't do Military Service, know many that have/are. I do shed tears at my local Wall from those fallen In Vietnam. From the guys I know, I know this. They reallyappreciated the folks back home sending G96 to them in 'Nam. Ask a 'Nam Vet. Vets also appreciate the "Adopt a platoon program" by Otis, whom sends care packages of needed items. Yeah sure Otis wants to sell a product, provides cleaning kits to the troops...but its the calling cards, the photo of first born the soldier rec'd that was more appreciated.

Some other "Firearm" companies are "giving" rather than "pumping" for sales. I respect these companies.

Nothing wrong with making money and marketing a product. It's what we do. We do have , IMO, too many line extensions, marketing hype, Internet wannabes with inflated egos. He he he...the truth is, might be surprising whom actually makes what. How they really got started, how many 'private branding" companies there really is. People buy 3 different lubes and each is better...and it's the same lube in 3 different packages...guess you got to be on the 'correct wagon" in order for your gun to work. :rolleyes:

[ off soapbox ]
Still - I will never use Militech and some other lubes. I learned too much once playing the lube game. I guess I'm allowed one really big stupid in life...I've had mine...I've aplogized for doing so. I also agreed to keep in confidence what I do know...so don't ask.

Personally, I'm turned off by all the lubes,solvents...et al. Getting turned off by a lot of firearm related products and hype. I just rebel and refuse to use and support these products.

[ARperson]

One Marine Corp veteran of GuadalCanal told me that when he woke up in the am, he cleaned his weapon. When taking a break from marching...cleaned his weapon. After chow, cleaned his weapon. Before bed, cleaned his weapon. After shooting, clean his weapon.

My husband works with a guy who's son is in the Marines and is getting shipped back to Iraq for a second time.

Seems the Marines make cleaning the rifle as common as relieving yourself.

And according to this Marine, the Army guys (I believe he used a less neutral word :D ) do not have this same insistence on always cleaning the rifle to insure proper function. While I don't have the time nor the interst really, it would be interesting to catalogue the malfs and jams and other problems as to which branch they occurred in.

[rayra]

8yrs Marine, using CLP, in the dirt and sand for days and weeks, CLEANED MY M16A2 REGULARLY, never a jam.
Go ahead and check - I'm sure you'll find those that had trouble treated their weapons as luggage, or had been firing / engaged continuously (and thus unable to service their weapon).
Same tired baloney about the M-16 jamming as from its initial deployment to Vietnam - an issue of proper maintenance. Add to that the convergence of people quick to attempt to obstuct our efforts in Iraq by playing up every conceivable fault, shortage, equipment issue under the sun (completely NOT surprised this story appears under an ABC source), and you have a completely manufactured 'crisis' - where the hell was the 'CLP Crisis' after the '91 Gulf War?

[Steve in PA]

GI Joe, you need to lube and clean your rifle.

GI Joe: Hmm, a little bit of lube is good.......then alot must be better.

GI Joe then overlubes his rifle.......gathers a ton of sand and malfunctions.

Easier to blame the lube than the overzealous soldier.

Just mirrors todays society..........always put the blame on something else. I could never be at fault.......it has to be X, Y or Z.

[gun-fucious]

Graphite will consume the internal anodization in the upper
leaving raw aluminum wear surfaces

[Pilgrim]

Funny that this wasn't all discovered at Fort Irwin.

Pilgrim

[Bartholomew Roberts]

For those who missed any of the previous regular attempts to market Militec on the backs of dead Americans, here is the relevant technical information from Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane (listed as a "satisfied customer" by Militec) - note that Militec hosts the report themselves.

Corrosion Protection (http://www.militec1.com/linkedhere3.html)

"4. The Militec product's ability to prevent corrosion on "gun steel" was evaluated. Test pieces were coated with lubricant and heated at 160 degrees F prior to being placed in the salt fog chamber in accordance with ASTM B117. Two different tests were conducted:

a) A bolt assembly from an M-16 rifle was disassembled and the phosphated parts, including the bolt, the bolt carrier, the cam pin, and the chrome-plated firing pin were treated with Militec and placed in the salt fog cabinet.

@5 hours: rust spots evident on firing pin
@26 hours: rust spots evident on bolt carrier
@101 hours: rust occured from about 30-50% over significant areas of test pieces

b) A bolt carrier from an M-16 rifle was stripped of its phosphate coating by grit blasting and treated with Militec and placed in the salt fog cabinet. After 17 hours the bolt carrier was severely rusted (>90% of significant area)."

Dust Environment Lubricant Test (http://www.militec1.com/lubetest5.html) (Militec is Brand E)

"Dust tests with exposure times of one hour, three hours, six hours, seven hours and eight hours were conducted with military and commercially available lubricants applied to M16A1 rifles. CLP provided the best overall performance with one stoppage in five dust tests. VV-L-800 finished second with three stoppages in five dust tests. Other top finishers were Brand D with three stoppages in four dusts tests, Brand C with seven stoppages in five dust tests and Brand E (Militec) with eight stoppages in five dust tests. The three top finishers were liquid lubricants. Although it appeared that more dust accumulated on the exposed exterior surfaces of bolt carriers with liquid lubricants than on bolt carriers with dry film lubricants, the liquid lubricants had more success overcoming friction caused by dust intrusion.

3.1.5 CLP (http://www.militec1.com/lubetest18.html) QPL-63460-13
Test Sequence #1: MRBS=NA, all 90 rounds fired successfully
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=60/1=60

The lubricant used in this test was CLP liquid. In test sequence #1, rifle #4783144 did not have any malfunctions in the one-hour, three-hour, and six-hour tests. In test sequence #2, rifle #4813100 fired without any malfunctions in the seven-hour test, but recorded one malfunction in the eight-hour test.

3.1.6 Brand E (Militec)

Test Sequence #1: MRBS=90/3=30
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=60/5=12

In test sequence #1, rifle #4785227 fired without any malfunctions in the one-hour test; but did have one malfunction in the three-hour test and two malfunctions in the six-hour test. In test sequence #2, rifle #5449207 fired without any malfunctions in the seven-hour test, but had five malfunctions in the eight-hour test.

3.1.14 Unlubricated rifle

Test Sequence #1: MRBS=NA, was not tested
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=30/6=5

An unlubricated rifle was placed in test sequence #2 seven-hour test as a baseline to compare to the lubricated rifles. Rifle #4831774 had six malfunctions.

[Phil Ca]

In Vietnam the First Infantry Division was issued M-16 rifles w/o a cleaning rod. Our Ordnance Maintenance Unit field manufactured them day and night for several days. I had brought a .22 caliber brass cleaning rod with me when we came over on a ship. It was the only sample available at the time.

A lieutenant in the infantry wrote his mother about the problem. She bought up all the cleaning rods in the local stores and sent them to him.

When we boarded the ship in Oakland I sprayed my rifle with anti-rust liquid spray and during the 21 days at sea, I never had an rust.

:cool:

[rayra]

"Funny that this wasn't all discovered at Fort Irwin."
EXACTLY. I spent my Marine years blowing very large holes in the deserts of MCAGCC 29 Palms, Ft.Carson CO, Ft.Bliss TX, and the plains of Ft.Sill.

The weapons AND the CLP works JUST FINE, providing you treat and maintain your weapons properly.

[Jeff White]

There are few people lower then those who would use the dead bodies of brave men and women to attempt to make a profit. Militech will never see one penny of my money.

BTW there have been almost continual trips into the combat zone by all of the service schools. No one is reporting any problems with the use of CLP.

Think about that the next time you go to buy cleaning supplies. Militech will lie and try to profit from our dead soldiers in order to promote their product. :barf:

Jeff

[talbalos]

Graphite is known to have a galvanic reaction with aluminum. Never use graphite based lubes on aluminum.Galvanic corrosion (http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/html/galcorr.htm)

[JohnKSa]

Ok, I'm going to try a balancing act here. I don't mean to impugn the soldiers who are having trouble, but on the other hand, I think it's silly to blame the lube.

Weren't Jessica Lynch and her crew in some sort of a maintenance/supply convoy? As such, they are carrying weapons but don't really expect to have to use them.

I suspect that the individuals who are planning to use their rifles regularly are more careful about maintenance than those who aren't. I suspect that they have much less trouble with malfunctions.

ANY liquid lube will attract sand. If the sandy lube isn't removed (the weapon cleaned) regularly, you're going to have troubles. To suggest that one liquid lube attracts more sand than another is ludicrous.

[JimJD]

I remember that most of the guys I knew who went into the region, said they cleaned their weapons several times a day if time allowed.
I have to call up my family members who were in Vietnam, and ask how many times they cleaned... I do remember one saying he did it all the time.
All of them were in the Marines and Army.
Hmmm... this topic has really got me interested. I want to know more.
Anyone else with info.? Personal experiences?
I've always been told to clean, clean, clean. Then clean some more.
Is it possible to clean too much? Just wondering.

[bountyhunter]

Think about that the next time you go to buy cleaning supplies. Militech will lie and try to profit from our dead soldiers in order to promote their product.

I guess I don't see how they are lying. They posted a story that was flattering to their product which they did not write and believed to be true. How is that lying?

Some other "Firearm" companies are "giving" rather than "pumping" for sales. I respect these companies.

And Militec is giving free samples to anybody who asks. They sent me samples.

They alse are giving $$$ to veterans in way of huge discounts on their products. First time I tried to order some, I had filled out the form and my computer crashed so I just blew it off until the next day and figured I'd try again later.

Next day there was an e-mail from Militec saying they had gotten the form but no order, and wanted to know if I needed help placing an order. They were corteous and addressed me by rank, and were going out of their way to sell me their goods at half off the list price. I don't see how these guys rate bad mouthing as being anti American or unpatriotic.

[Byron]

JimJD, in regard to your request on cleaning rifles in Nam, I was in the infantry there 68-69 4th INF DIV. The powder had been changed back to Dupont powder, we had LSA for lubricating the bolt and our bolts were chrome plated. We tried to clean our 16's as often as possible and there were times we could not. My rifle never jammed and at one point, many rounds were put through it. Byron

[clubsoda22]

I'd think the 1911's would need a lot of cleaning in nam....one grain of sand in your barrel bushing will F your day up.

[Scarface]

I have dealt with and spoken with the partners at Militech. One of them is retired military who did two tours in Viet Nam. We know some of the same territory. They both impressed me as gentlemen and patriots. When I tried to buy the wrtong product, they both told me I should not spend my money on the wrong apllication.

They had a chance to take my money and refused it. Now, I carry their products and am proud both of the product and my association with other veterans who hold scruples above profits.

[sm]

clubsoda22,
I don't know how familar you are with the 1911, the history of its testing before being chosen as sidearm for troops. I'm not sure if you are familar with Larry Vickers.

I Have done much testing on a personal note of my 1911 styles that I CCW. Including the "Sand Test".
------

Excerpt from Larry Vickers:

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3132&highlight=Sand+Test

"Test consisted of placing each pistol loaded in a Bianchi GI field holster inside a plastic bag with approx 2 cups of fine/medium grit sand ( North Carolina type). Then the bag was shaken vigorously for 10 seconds while holding onto the pistol butt for safety. The pistol was then taken out and 3 mags were fired through the 1911..."

---------
I have those I know that served in Many conflicts, of more recent Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm...all these persons carried and used the 1911 style.
Many enviroments besides sand.

I also know many that shoot in sandy conditions, as some of the persons whom attend various training schools.

The common theme is Proper Inspection, Maintenance, condusive to the enviroment. Like shooting is 90% individual, 10% equipement.

I'm personally offended by many companies and their marketing. I do not do business as that is MY choice. It IS MY responsibilty to test my CCWs and any and all other SD firearms , I inspect, maintain as need.

Part of my responsibility IMO is to test my firearms for myself. That is why I PROPERLY lube my firearms and test in sand, mud, snow, freezing rain...
"One never knows the where or when of next encounter"-[CRSam].
I know my guns will fire weak-handed, upside down, sideways ( eject port up OR down) like if I'm hit and need to shoot under a vehicle.

It ain't ONE particular brand of anything. The Reality is The 1911 style has been running a lot longer than many cleaning and lubrication companies have been in business.

IMNSHO

Not to mention the money used for trying every new product that comes down the pike is better spent on ammo, and training...this is what allows one to survive...not what flavor of lube of the month.

[Jeff White]

I guess I don't see how they are lying. They posted a story that was flattering to their product which they did not write and believed to be true. How is that lying?

bountyhunter, The weapons in the 507th would have malfunctioned if they had been lubed with Militech. The failure was one of leadership, not of material. To suggest otherwise is a lie. To tell the grieving families that their loved ones would be alive now, if the Army had only issued their miracle product is a lie. That is how they are lying.

I think the fact that the combat arms units used CLP exclusively (it's the only authorized lubricant except for LAW for most Army small arms) and had no problems like that speaks for itself.

I don't care if they give away free samples. I don't care if Militech magically reduces friction to zero and they are making bullet trains levitate with it by placing it on the rails. This type of marketing is attempting to make profit on the dead. I would not buy their product or recommend it to anyone. The small arms in the 507th Maintenance Company failed because their leaders didn't enforce the standards. They could have been AKMs lubed with Militech and the results would have been the same. It's not the weapon, it's not the lubricant, it's the maintenance or in this case the lack of it.

Do they mention how militech failed to meet the standards when the Army tested it? Of course I guess that's just because Militech was the victim of a conspiracy to keep the makers of CLP rich :banghead:

Jeff

[sm]

Yep
Agree with Jeff White,he just says it better.

Personally feel the same way with other products that get marketed in similar fashion. I will not buy, recommend....ever!

Kinda like the media telling folks evil black rifles are more dangerous than one that is more PC in appearance...It is the Individual not the material of the rifle or the .223 rd.

[c_yeager]

Liquid lube in general doesnt work in this sort of environment. You far better just running dry. It doesnt matter who puts their name on the label of your lube. If its wet and your in the desert, its a bad choice period.

[tiberius]

I'd think the 1911's would need a lot of cleaning in nam....one grain of sand in your barrel bushing will F your day up.

Maybe on a tight race gun, but not on a mil-spec M1911-A1. They are probabliy the most field reliable pistols made, provided mil-spec ammo is used.

[Kentucky Rifle]

No offense meant, however it's Militec's policy to provide FREE LUBE to anyone in uniform. Personally, I know that, what was termed as "a boatload", of Militec-1 was just shipped-*free of charge-to the soldiers who are in Iraq. A LOT of product went and Militec Corp even paid for shipping. I think it was a pretty outstanding thing to do...plus, they don't even mention this generosity in their advertisements. I also know that Militec turned down offers of contributons for this effort. Shows a lot of class.
Please understand that I'm in no way trying to flame you or "start something". I'm just trying to make you aware of something you may not know.

KR

[Jeff White]

Kentucky Rifle said;

No offense meant, however it's Militec's policy to provide FREE LUBE to anyone in uniform. Personally, I know that, what was termed as "a boatload", of Militec-1 was just shipped-*free of charge-to the soldiers who are in Iraq. A LOT of product went and Militec Corp even paid for shipping. I think it was a pretty outstanding thing to do...plus, they don't even mention this generosity in their advertisements. I also know that Militec turned down offers of contributons for this effort. Shows a lot of class.


Any soldier of mine I caught using an unauthorized lubricant in a combat zone would lose half a months pay and a stripe. It would definately be time for a Company Grade Article 15. Militech is approved and procured for one of the larger weapons, it's either the 25mm Bushmaster Chain gun on the Bradley IFV/CFV or the 30mm cannon on the AH64 Apache IIRC. It's not authorized for use on any small arm in the Army inventory.

More damage to weapons is done by soldiers thinking they know more then the ordnance department and using unauthorized substances to clean their weapons then you would believe. Militech was tested for use on small arms and didn't make the grade. That's it, end of story. Militech is not showing a lot of class by sending their product to the soldiers. They are attempting to market a product. Perhaps they think that the soldiers will use their product and get outcry built up for official purchases. But all they are really doing is encouraging the soldiers to get into trouble.

In almost 29 years in the Army, I saw soldiers use everything from WD40 to carborator cleaner to oven cleaner to attempt to make cleaning their weapons easier.

If Militech wanted to help the soldiers, they'd send patches and pipe cleaners which my friends who are deployed tell me are hard to come by in the quantities needed.

Jeff

[Azrael256]

*cough* *bull$hit* *cough*...

My brother got leave from LSA Anaconda (a ways south of Tikrit, IIRC) a couple weeks ago (He's 45B). No CLP issued at all. He has a couple of drums of it (did you know stuff settles out of it after awhile?), but the CLP isn't issued to the troops, nor used in the shop to clean weapons. He says he has become a big fan of WD-40 lately, but wishes he had a dry lube alternative because oils attract dust.

Furthermore, he has told me horror stories that YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE, and almost made me cry, about how some of the soldiers treated their weapons. Combat troops generally don't mess around with their rifles, but enginners evidently have a tendency to use their M-16's as chockblocks... for their earth-movers... Bent/loose barrels, CRUSHED stocks, etc. Weapon failure in a maintenance unit like the 507th probably has more to do with them not maintaining or abusing their weapons than CLP.

[Quickloader]

And so the story goes on:

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/investigators/wabc_investigators_112603gunlube.html#

:confused:

Food for thinking, or maybe not.

Quickloader

[twoblink]

I have a friend who loves CLP. CLP for lunch, CLP for dinner..

I tried his gun once...

I shot the first round.. SLASH!! CLP came flying out. His guns were prone to jamming.. Maybe it was the half gallon or so of CLP pumped into it!!

CLP is not bad at all, if used PROPERLY. Any lube if used improperly will give you bad results..

I like transmission oil myself :D Mobile 1 is pretty good too. You want a THIN film, and not more. Also, CLEAN BEFORE YOU LUBE.

From the soldiers I know, they need to take "Rifle cleaning 101". That would do more than all the wonderlubes in the world.

Militec, is taking advantage of the situation to profit. Not cool IMHO..