[Dave McCracken]

An E mailer recently took me to task about only liking certain US made shotguns. I pointed out that the one shot most here lately comes from Italy, and the writer responded that I only liked certain brands. He di not come out and say it, but I have the impression he thinks me a closet elitist and a shotgun snob.

Maybe. You judge.

I've owned more Remingtons than any other brand, and they've served me well.

6 are 870s, one an 11.

I've owned a couple Savage/Stevens 311s, and would like to have them back.

Same with a pair of H&R single shots.

And the former C&P railroad police Mossberg 500 I bought in the 70s for $65 out the door had some cosmetic issues but functioned perfectly. I sold it only because I didn't want to change my "Chops" from the 870.

A Mossberg bolt action was my slug gun for awhile and helped me get that 9 point over the mantle.

An Ithaca 51 auto was here briefly, and I babysat an 1100 for a friend and liked it well enough I offered to buy it. He declined to sell.

As for foreign made guns, Pop's last O/U was an SKB, and I shot it enough to think it was close to ideal for the uplands.

Another great uplander was a French gun by an unknown maker (Didierfusil) that opened my mind to the game gun concept.

And regular readers here know how much I enjoyed shooting that Saiga I was loaned for a T&E.

I've had bad luck with Spanish guns, but the sample is too small to generalize any real conclusions.

There's little direct experience in my past with Third World made knockoffs. I'm leery of stuff I'd have to send overseas to get fixed and that may have parts replacement issues.

And since good,reliable shotguns of known quality are neither scarce nor costly, I'll stick to the ones I know..

And, I've liked darn near all the shotguns I've ever shot.

The brand matters little if at all.

Discuss among yourselves....

[Balog]

Interesting, what Spanish guns did you have issues with?

[Dave McCracken]

In pistols, a pair of Llamas.

In shotguns, an Aramberri imported under the Pederson name by Mossberg.

[Snarlingiron]

Funny!

Most folks have only one and sometimes 2 shotguns. So by having and using a lot of different ones you are a brand snob?

I think the concept is from your prolific posts around the 870's. But, so what? I like what I like, as I'm sure you do to. If someone has a problem with that, then Devil take the hindmost.

[Balog]

Ah, good. I've been looking closely at the AyA side by sides, glad to hear they haven't caused you any issues.

[huntsman]

but I have the impression he thinks me a closet elitist and a shotgun snob.


Well if someone HAD TO come out of the "closet" being a shotgun elitist and snob ain't too bad :)

I think when it comes to shotguns way to many people get hung up on the cost, because unlike handguns shotguns really offer a wide Variety of price for tools that can basically do the same things.

I tend to judge shotguns by type more than brand, as long as the meet MY bare minimum of acceptable standards. :)

[armchairQB]

Im a shotgun snob.

Sue me.

Stoegers and Mossbergs arent in the same league as Brownings and Beretta or SKBs or Ugartecheas.

Buy one good shotgun for same price you could buy 5 or 6 cheapies.

That said I still have a Mossberg 500 20 gauge for HD duty. No police dept is going to confiscate my Rizzini.

[waterhouse]

I used to get accused of the same thing Dave. The funny thing is that different people seemed to think I only shot one kind of gun.

The guy I dove hunt with though I only shot Ithaca 37s. I had 2 or 3 and would switch depending on choke or whimsy, but I think he thought I had a whole safe full of 20 gauge 37s.

A guy I hunt quail with thought I was a Beretta snob because I used either a 20 or 28 gauge 686 every time we went quail hunting.

They all put a smile on my face when I hit something, regardless of the name stamped into the metal.

[dom1104]

Hey Dave, some of us dont care if you are a brand snob or not. Why would someone write an email taking someone to task on what guns he liked?

sheesh.

And yes I have no desire for anything other than 870s in the pump realm. I am more open to variety in the ou and sxs and semi, but still no junk allowed in my home.

[ReloaderFred]

Other people's opinions only matter if you care.......... If you don't care, then their opinion is wasted, so why worry about it?

Just my .02 cents worth.

Fred

[ArmedBear]

There's a good reason for brand loyalty, that has nothing to do with snobbery. It could apply to just about any production gun, from a Mossberg to a CSMC.

I bought a used shotgun off the 'net, in great shape. Doing that is ordinarily like buying boots off the Internet: a bad plan. However, since I had previous experience with the brand, I knew it was a good gun and, most importantly, that it would fit me out of the shipping box.

Would I buy just any shotgun sight unseen? No. Might that mean I'm missing out on one, here or there? Of course. But that's true of mail-order boots, too.:)

(I also think that SKBs are close to ideal upland shotguns, but only in 20 Gauge.:))

[Dimis]

Heres a simple test

1.Do you (or have you ever) only own one brand?
2.If someone asks advice on shotguns do you only have one answer for all purposes?
3.Can you hold a conversation without being enraged discussing other brands?

i wouldnt say your a snob in any fashion of the word maybe a connoisseur but just because you found what you prefer and like doesnt make you a snob

i know alot of guys that prefer higher end guns and i dont see anything wrong with that at all i prefer mossberg and remington because thats A.what i can afford and B.know i can work with well
are they neccessarily better guns than brownings or benelli i dont know and vice versa

all i do know is that i like and can afford those firearms and shoot them well

im not a hunter or skeet/clay sportsman so i wouldnt know one thing about an O/U or SxS

im a HD and hobbiest shooter so i stick with things that fascinate me mechanicaly and that useualy slaps me with pumps and autos

i wouldnt tell anyone that the gun they liked was inferior to the ones i like the purpose for the shotgun may be entirely different than mine

i wouldnt be able to answer questions on who makes the best waterfowl shotgun but i would be able to send them to more knowledgable sources (THR)

but if i were asked what "I" like and why for a purpose i do have experience with then i would reccomend what has worked for me probably mossberg 500s

does that make me a mossberg rider... not really because if i had a remington or browning ide be just as happy i just prefer what i bought there is nothing wrong with that

[figment]

Brand matters when it defines the type of thing you want. POO (Pride of ownership) the thinking that because you own one nothing else can compare, is what stinks.

[ArmedBear]

PoO! I love it!

I never got the whole "pride of ownership" thing. I have owned some things that I really liked owning. We own one right now: a beat-up Subaru AWD wagon with 253,000 miles on it and counting. As a point of pride, my wife and I are semi-committed to seeing it go to 300K -- but we don't expect anyone else to care, nor to be impressed with our car!:D

[Dimis]

a beat up subaru AWD wagon with 253,000 miles?!?!?!
man i am impressed lol j/k

[Dave McCracken]

AB, Pop's SKB WAS a 20. 28" barrels, IC and Mod. Fine little shotgun.

My friend Al has a passel of Model 21s, a Grulla, an AyA, a delightful little 28 gauge Ruger and so on. He's the first to admit he shoots just as well with his Express, a "Rain Gun" he bought for less than $200.Pride of Ownership, and practicality.

As for the inspiration here,Dom, I believe he was in a snit because I'm loathe to recommend some brands he's fond of. One's Benellis, and also some off brand clones.

I've little experience with the former and merely decry the cost, and zero experience with the latter. For the reasons given, it's likely to stay that way.

Mayhap it's because I do not think his choices are the Ultimate Shotgun and the Only Good Choice.

That's happened before. And may again, absolutists pop up now and then.

Balog, the AyAs I've handled and shot have been very nice guns. Covet,covet....

And thanks to the friends I have,the folks I meet and a little unabashed begging, I've handled and shot a mess of great shotguns. Including.....

A passel of Parkers,including an A-! Special grade SBT.

Another passel of Purdeys, and yes, they are that good.

A third passel of Perazzis, including one that Angelo Bee worked his magic on.

Churchills, Woodwards, Kreighoffs, Kolars, AH Foxes, LeFevers, Ithacas, Bakers, Elsies, ad infinitum.

And dozens of 870s, 500s, 12s, 37s, 1100,A-5s etc. And I've liked them all.

Snob? No.

Fan? Heck yes!!

[Al LaVodka]

It is so funny seeing an SKB as a "snobs" gun. And a really knowledgeable snob would be hesitant to include some others with the possible exception of the Beretta -- POSSIBLY.

So, at 108,000 miles I should keep my 5-year-old AWD 35th Anniversary Edition Subaru Legacy Sedan? It is pretty mint...

I had a friend who went to a Beretta showroom store, nose held high. He and his wife both had to work extra-long hours to live in the right area, would only send their kids to the right schools and arrange playdates with children of people who had money, whose parties they would also try to be invited to, and would only buy and shoot an expensive gun as jewelry on invitation-only hunts. After he placed an order for a particular Beretta and hadn't heard back, I wrote a script and had an assistant call him and explain that they didn't have that particular gun but as he hadn't pased their high credit-check standards he couldn't have one anyway and suggested a less expensive alternative including used guns -- he never mentioned it and I took pity and never told him about the joke. He eventually ended up with a select Beretta 20 and 28 guage O/U set that he got regionally...

Al

[huntsman]

It is so funny seeing an SKB as a "snobs" gun. And a really knowledgeable snob would be hesitant to include some others with the possible exception of the Beretta -- POSSIBLY.

+1

can't be a snob without owning a model 21, anyone who knows guns knows "it is" the embodiment of quality gun making in America.

And for the record I don’t view snob as a pejorative.

[ArmedBear]

So, at 108,000 miles I should keep my 5-year-old AWD 35th Anniversary Edition Subaru Legacy Sedan? It is pretty mint...


Only 5 years old? That's NEW by my standards for Subarus.:D

I want any car I park at a ski area to look like the one NEXT to it might have something in it worth stealing...

[Al LaVodka]

My brother-in-law used a Model 21 as part of the collateral to buy their first home.
Al

[PJR]

can't be a snob without owning a model 21, anyone who knows guns knows "it is" the embodiment of quality gun making in America.
There are those that would consider the "emodiment of quality gun making in America" to be damning with faint praise. I recall a very fancy Model 21 that was for sale in'the gun room at E.J. Churchills in West Wycombe. Among the svelte English double guns that Winchester stood out like a 300lb. girl at a supermodel's convention. ;)

I'm loyal to guns that do what I expect them to do no matter where they come or which rollmark is on the barrel. I don't discriminate against a gun's origins or names just against the ones that are either junk, unproven or have features I don't like or care for.

I've been reading the wisdom of Dave McC on this site and a couple of others for many years. A brand snob he is not.

[shockwave]

Loyalty has to be earned. That applies to all kinds of things. In regard to firearms, "it never fails" is what wins me over.

[oneounceload]

Brand "snobbery" is not so much about being a snob, as it is about having an opinion you feel strongly about. Many equate this with folks who have the means and opportunities to buy more expensive items in life - whether they be watches, guns, cars, etc. Many also seem to equate that with some form of exclusivity or smugness, while a lot of folks that I know, especially then ones who own and shoot the P and K guns, do so because they work very well for their intended use - shooting clays, pigeons, helice, even dove, while their field versions excel on the likes of quail, chukar and pheasant.

If that means being a gun snob, then so be it. Many who like to belittle those who have the more expensive guns, have never held one, let alone shot one or hunted with one. Those who have understand the differences in "feel", "balance", "pointability" and the like.

There is a WORLD of difference between the characteristics of a Spartan and an AyA 2 - not just the mechanics and durability or even the decorative stylings - one is like grabbing a 2x4 and the other is like grabbing the slender wrist of the prettiest girl at the dance............

[CajunBass]

Ah, good. I've been looking closely at the AyA side by sides, glad to hear they haven't caused you any issues.

I had an AyA side by side 20ga that I bought through Sears & Roebuck years ago. It was branded that way I believe (Sears & Roebuck by AYA). That was a find, good shooting shotgun. I had the stock cut down to fit my ex-wife, then a few years later, we traded it off for something or other. :banghead: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

Pretty gun. Color case hardened frame, dark blue barrels, nice wood, sharp checkering, all the screw slots pointed the same way (something Jack O'Conner always made a big deal out of which impressed me at the time). 28" barrels, choked mod and full, double triggers. I really wish I had that one back.

I've had the abovementioned AyA, as well as a Stevens 311, a Winchester 1200, Three Remington 1100's, and a couple of Sears/Roebuck pumps, one made by Mossberg, the other another Winchester 1200. I've also got a Mossberg 500, 20ga. Oh, and my first gun ever an Ithaca M-66 in 20ga. Not too much to be snobby about there.

[Texas Gun Person]

I really don't care about brand as long as the gun works like it should, and I like the gun.



My father however was a Browning lover. He had expensive tastes, and liked expensive guns, and expensive glass. :) He still does... just picked up a new BAR to join his collection

[ArmedBear]

There is a WORLD of difference between the characteristics of a Spartan and an AyA 2 - not just the mechanics and durability or even the decorative stylings - one is like grabbing a 2x4 and the other is like grabbing the slender wrist of the prettiest girl at the dance............

That may be giving the Spartan a bit too much credit. What I don't really buy, though, is that a CSMC Model 21 boxlock ($15,500 in its plainest garb, and $26,500 if you should, god forbid, want a 28 on a 28 Gauge frame) is that much nicer in the hands than the AyA boxlock. Or any nicer. And that's not even a No. 2.

WRT watches, they're a lot different from shotguns. The fanciest mechanical watch is simple conspicuous consumption, as it literally will do nothing a Timex digital watch won't do. I mean, enjoy your fancy watches all you want, but there's no argument for them to be made based on function. With shotguns, there most certainly is.

my first gun ever an Ithaca M-66 in 20ga. Not too much to be snobby about there.

What do you mean? I have one of those, and it's sure a lot better than a crappy H&R!:D

(Actually, it really is. The hammer doesn't obstruct your field of vision, for one thing, and it points surprisingly well.)

In all seriousness, there are debates to be had about which high-end guns offer the most for the money -- a shotgun that costs $25K or more can still offer more or less than its competitors do. This is still an objective question, not "snobbery." Is a Krieghoff or a Perazzi a better shotgun? THAT will start some discussions...:)

[oneounceload]

Pretty gun. Color case hardened frame, dark blue barrels, nice wood, sharp checkering, all the screw slots pointed the same way (something Jack O'Conner always made a big deal out of which impressed me at the time). 28" barrels, choked mod and full, double triggers. I really wish I had that one back.


What Jack was referring to is called being "properly indexed". Having all of the screws symmetrically in the same direction is a sign of quality, because each hole had to be tapped and each screw piece threaded just perfectly to make that happen. That takes skill and labor

[Shadow 7D]

Hard to say, I like C&R stuff, some of the brands aren't here anymore, but I do like kel-tec, and I buy from Midway, both because the have great customer service, and decent prices. I get my stuff from a local store, real run down hole in the wall gunshop, until you look at the guns nailed to the top of the walls, the ceiling and find out that your standing in one of the most extensive private collections of firearms in the state of Alaska, and if you ask for it, they can usually have in in a week, two at the most.

[CajunBass]

What Jack was referring to is called being "properly indexed". Having all of the screws symmetrically in the same direction is a sign of quality, because each hole had to be tapped and each screw piece threaded just perfectly to make that happen. That takes skill and labor

That's what I had figured although I didn't know the term "indexed". I've just never heard it mentioned by anyone else I don't think. I've got Jack's books in storage somewhere (Book of the Rifle/Book of the Shotgun). I've got to dig them out one of these days and read them again.

[Al LaVodka]

So, quality costs money and money can buy quality. A buyer who has quality is proud of it, maybe overly so. Even snobbishly. OK. I aspire to be more of a snob.

Are Kreighoff's and Perazzi's better? Yes, of course. Are they THAT much better. Eventually, no. But, to some people, the diminishing return for every additional $5k, $10k, $15k, etc. spent on a particular gun is relatively meaningless. And, yes, it becomes conspicuous, cliqueish, consumption at some point. In my neck of the woods the bricklayers all drive a Mercedes Benz and shoot Perazzi's and Krieghoff's -- that's their thing. And I agree: people who have never really handled and/or owned higher quality arms tend to defend whatever they have and want to brush everyone else with the broad brush of snobbery. This is most and especially noticeable in guys and their ComBlock AK's, Makarovs, more recently Mosin's, etc. -- just another type of brand loyalty I think all (but these guys) are recognizing as examples where it is misguided .

Al

[oneounceload]

The thing is Al - a K or P gun can typically be shot for free over it's lifetime should you decide to sell it or upgrade it. While the same may be said for a really cheap gun (assuming it is still in working order), why not shoot something quality?...... :D

[Ky Larry]

My grand father was the finest wing shot I ever saw. He owned one shotgun, a Winchester Model-12 that was pretty beat up after 40 years of hunting. He liked nice engraving ang burled walnut stocks on shotguns but when it was time to hunt, he always went back to his old Model-12. He often traded for nice shotguns like Parkers, Foxes, and L.C. Smiths but never kept them for long. I guess "quality" means different things to different people.

[huntsman]

Among the svelte English double guns that Winchester stood out like a 300lb. girl at a supermodel's convention.

Hmmmm.......Marilyn or Twiggy, I could find use for both ;)

[ArmedBear]

The thing is Al - a K or P gun can typically be shot for free over it's lifetime should you decide to sell it or upgrade it.

The people I know who have bought Perazzis aren't rich. They are, however, top-rated shooters. One of them VERY top. The guns really are excellent. These guns are not fancy in appearance, and someone who didn't know what "Perazzi" means would probably not guess what they cost when they saw them. If you do put as many rounds through a gun as some serious competitors, the gun pays for itself quickly, because it doesn't break. Obviously, the things also have ideal handling for their intended disciplines.

The one guy I know who shoots a K-80 is also a good shooter, but he bought the gun off someone because he had a chunk of extra change from a business deal, and the gun was beautiful. He shoots it very, very well, but admits that he doesn't "need" it.:) That gun has some of the most beautiful wood that I've ever seen, and I can understand the temptation.

[oneounceload]

The people I know who have bought Perazzis aren't rich. They are, however, top-rated shooters. One of them VERY top. The guns really are excellent. These guns are not fancy in appearance, and someone who didn't know what "Perazzi" means would probably not guess what they cost when they saw them. If you do put as many rounds through a gun as some serious competitors, the gun pays for itself quickly, because it doesn't break. Obviously, the things also have ideal handling for their intended disciplines

I'm in total agreement - serious shooters buy a P or K gun for their shooting characteristics. really wealthy folks will add the bling - but that doesn't alter the shooting aspects.............

I shoot with some folks who own both P and K guns - one is a HOF inductee for sporting - his gun is VERY nice and very functional - his last estimate was over 400,000 through the action - (he replaced barrels and stocks for something different) - THAT type of functioning is what serious shooters look for in a high quality gun.

[ArmedBear]

really wealthy folks will add the bling - but that doesn't alter the shooting aspects.............


Yeah. There's nothing wrong with the bling, either, but some Perazzis are plain blue and look a lot like a bottom-end Citori or the no-longer-imported 686 Onyx. Their owners aren't paying to show off; clearly these P-guns offer something more than skin deep.:)

[reckless carolinian]

Back to the question at hand.

Mr. McCracken, does the fact that you favor the Remington 870 shotgun make you a snob? No. Is there a question that you favor the Remington 870 shotgun? No. Why? You own 6 of them, and you have probably had an 870 in your hands most of your adult life, over any other firearm. You are intimately familiar with this firearm. You know exactly what an 870 will and won't do. And that makes you a snob? No sir, what it makes you is experienced, to say the least. And instead of putting forth a clear and cogent argument, your e-mailer simply attempts to bash you, on a trumped up charge of First degree snobbery. This person ought to be thanking you for dispensing your wisdom here, but instead flails away with puffery about you being biased to the Remington. Suffer not this fool to vex you more, good sir. You are speak from the experience of countless rounds of ammunition expended. I appreciate you being on here to educate all of us, Mr. McCracken. Thank you, God bless, and be safe out there.

[oneounceload]

AB - gun writer friend had a P gun built specifically for Argentina dove - he specified the barrel length, barrel weight, overall weight of the gun, exactly where he wanted the balance point to be (slightly forward of the hinge pin), the type and style of grip, the exact stock dimensions, a longer than normal game foreend, the exact choke constrictions, the trigger style and trigger pull weight..............in short a totally custom built gun. Wood isn't plain, but it isn't exhibition grade, the gun is blue, no engraving.

It's a 28 gauge on a 20 frame that weighs about 7.25# - cost was no different than buying one "off the rack", except he had to wait about 6 months for his. Does that cost more than some no name lesser quality gun? Yep - but that gun is his - totally

Does that make him a snob?? Or an informed consumer?

Some things, IMO, are worth it if you can do it

[ArmedBear]

Does that make him a snob?? Or an informed consumer?

Just someone who knows the difference, I think.

William Blake: Songs of Innocence and Experience...

You can't go back, once you know.:)

[AcceptableUserName]

I've developed some brand and manufacturer loyalties (Mossberg, Max100, Remington, Doublestar/JT) but it's the total package. It's the quality, the company, the way they do business, everything. By the same hand, I've also put some companies on my retail-avoid list as well (Sig, Robinson Arms, Ace Case, etc) that some people may feel loyalty toward. It's very much a personal thing.

If someone has a gun that's the greatest thing in the world since sliced bread, but they don't offer support for it, and they're jerks in the process - well, I don't want it. I work for my money. It's important to me. It has to go a long way. I also think it's important to give credit where credit is due and refuse it by the same hand with the inverse.

[JohnBT]

Is it time to start showing pics of the nicely engraved guns yet? :D


"The fanciest mechanical watch is simple conspicuous consumption, as it literally will do nothing a Timex digital watch won't do."

That's not my experience. My father spent $105 in 1972 on a stainless steel Omega Seamaster mechanical watch for my college graduation. It was the base model Seamaster.

It's still running and keeping time and has only been cleaned twice in almost 38 years. I've never had a digital watch last more than 3 or 4 years and some that didn't make 12 months.

I wish I could afford to be a shotgun snob.

John

[oneounceload]

John - here's a nice Celtic style on a David Mackay Brown:

http://www.mckaybrown.com/20guagesidebysideceltic_files/image003.jpg

That's about 45,000 British Pounds Sterling, so somewhere about $75,000 or so, depending on exchange rate.........


Here is a nice forum for ALL types - not just guns, but knives, etc.:

http://www.handengravingforum.com/all_albums.php?

[PJR]

Is it time to start showing pics of the nicely engraved guns yet?
They are always nice to look at. McKay Brown makes mouth watering guns. My favourite of any that I've seen.

I love engraving on someone else's gun but don't particularly want it on mine. It's expensive and doesn't contribute to a gun's performance. In fact, depending on the model it can make a gun less practical. For example a Beretta Silver Pigeon EELL is lovely to look at but is far less practical than a base model DT10 which is in about the same price range.

[ArmedBear]

Have you seen the Pheasant Gun from Johann Fanzoj in the current Shooting Sportsman magazine?

It's not just engraved; the whole receiver is built as a pheasant motif. It's a drilling, all barrels firing shotshells.

The Lionfire is neat, but it's a rifle, so it doesn't really count here.:)

http://www.fanzoj.com/en/gunroom/flagship_guns/lionfire_rifle/index.html

[oneounceload]

Have you seen the Pheasant Gun from Johann Fanzoj in the current Shooting Sportsman magazine?


The March/April issue? What page? - not seeing it.

And yes he, along with Hofer and Ollendorf make superb European guns. Of course, DMB is no slouch either.

(To stay on topic) - All of those guys are brands worth being a brand snob about if one can afford it.

(The A&S on page 65 isn't a slouch either!)

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the input, though I didn't have any doubts about my views.

A second E mail from the proponent states I'm misrepresenting him. I do not want to post either, respecting his wish for anonymity.

He's not a regular contributor here, and at this point I really do not care what he thinks.

I just can't please everyone and I decline to try.....

As for the big ticket shotguns, a couple personal opinions.

As for fine engraving like on that gorgeous McKay Brown, it's like my personal preference for old ML rifles of the Southern Mountain style rather than the more ornate PA styles of more of my ancestors. If the lines of the thing are well made, the decoration is superfluous. Think of Shaker furniture.

If I did have a gun engraved, it would likely be Number Six (pretty 1955 WM) and I'd have hot rod style flames inlaid in red gold around the ejection port.

While I love my pumpguns, and will add some in the future(37,12, 28 ga 870 WM) only finances stop me from getting some higher end stuff, including these When I Win the Lottery fantasy prizes.

An AH Fox in 16 gauge, just because.

A Beretta DT10, just because it appeals to me.

A 20 gauge O/U, of make different from the B guns. If Argentina is in the plans, make it a Beretta on a 12 gauge frame to soak up the kick from those 500 shells a day plus shooting orgies.

And an Elsie,simply because my GF had one. It's now with a cousin's widow. And still not for sale.

And a host of others. When it comes to shotguns, it takes little to arouse my covets.

[gordy]

I like my mossbergs, I can shoot them left or right handed(safety on top) hard to do that with a remington. I do like the remingtons, they are good shotguns.
My father inlaw thinks they only make brownings, I thought he was going to cry when he saw the small scratch on his high dollar gun. I can buy 3 mossbergs and 2 remingtons for what he payed for that fine gun.
A hunting buddy of mine has the prettest english double for upland birds. nice to shoot and looks fine. Balance on your finger. He wont walk threw the tall grass, scared he might scratch it. I tell him to stay here. I'll go in there. I shoot the birds before they get to him. A landrover gets there just like a ford explorer. The seats are just nicer.

[ArmedBear]

A small scratch acquired while hunting is a souvenir of the day.

A small scratch acquired while rearranging guns in the safe is what really pisses me off, and I don't care how cheap the gun was. It's the principle of it.:)

(I've got an old shotgun I paid 50 bucks for. It gets treated well and kept oiled, just like anything else.)

[oneounceload]

Never assume that everyone who owns a nice, fine doublegun is afraid of walking through tall grass...............

[gordy]

I never did, Just my one hunting buddy.:)

[Dave McCracken]

Truthfully, I have enough shotguns that some do not get enough regular exercise, and that's a shame.

And if finances opened up, I'd probably first get....

A professional fitting by someone like Chris Batha, Rich Cole or the nice folks at Wenig followed by a couple new stocks sculpted to me.

Heck, make that at least three, for the Beretta, Number Six, and the little 20 gauge 870 I call Jessica.

Some lessons, probably from Will Fennell. Second choice, Gil and Vicki Ash.

And a GOOD progressive loader. I'm tired of digging stray pellets out of my Grabber.

[oneounceload]

A professional fitting by someone like Chris Batha, Rich Cole or the nice folks at Wenig followed by a couple new stocks sculpted to me.

Don't rule out Montana Long guns:

http://www.mtlongguns.com/products_and_services.htm

They have redone some stocks for some shooting buddies' K-guns - all I can is WOW!....something like 30 coats of truoil, each handrubbed.........

[ArmedBear]

something like 30 coats of truoil, each handrubbed.........

What does that set you back?

There's a guy at the range here with a 682E with a custom birdseye maple stock that's so gorgeous it looks fake until you get up real close. I think it may have come from there.

[oneounceload]

I didn't ask - this was on K-80s with gold game birds, etc. They had them done about a year or so ago. I'm assuming more than I can afford....until I hit the Powerball........

I think they're pretty close to you. Of course, Rich Cole in Maine does some phenominal work as well

[ArmedBear]

I usually do 3-5 coats and quit. Looks fine. 30 must be really nice.:D

[Dave McCracken]

Back when I Tru oiled a few redone stocks, 5 coats was enough, 7 was excessive. Maybe 30 works better with marble cake wood. I'd prefer less ostentatious lumber. Straight grain is stronger and oft lighter.

Noted, 1 oz.

[oneounceload]

All three of these folks are above average income-wise (I'm hoping they'd adopt me), so their wood are all in that marble-cake, or Exhibition grade......definitely looks good - the difference is that they all shoot as good as their guns look....unlike me

[P97]

If a Brand name has proven to me that they are ahead of the rest on quality vs price then yes, I buy brands. Two that come to mind off the top of my head is Ruger and Ford.

[GunsBeerFreedom]

I admit to brand loyalty. I am loyal to all brands of guns.

Thought for shotguns I do have a slight preference for Mossbergs.

[Al LaVodka]

Generally, I think we can agree that a reputatuon and the price a brand commands is indicative... Wait, did he say FORD!?
Al

[oneounceload]

Generally, I think we can agree that a reputatuon and the price a brand commands is indicative... Wait, did he say FORD!?
Al

WORSE! He said RUGER!!!!!!..... :D

[Rshooter]

Brand loyalty, bah. I like mine older, I actually got a 1955 and a 1960 870 off the web. Both are smoother and more beautiful than my newest one.