2nd strike capability?


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BillyBothHands
February 23, 2010, 07:21 PM
So when/where/from whos training did 2nd strike capable semi-autos suddenly become important?
It seems like thats in every review of a new one these days whether it will do it or not. It kinda of flies in the face of tap,rap,bang no? I realize that started and is the only sensible option for the 1911's other single actions, but a lot of us have been doing it a long time.

So what does everyone think? Marketing ploy? some great new training regime that I'm not privy to?

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tekarra
February 23, 2010, 07:56 PM
I think repeat strike capability in a semi-auto is a desireable characteristic. Several times I have had primers fail on the first strike and have then fired on the second strike. The SA, especially the 1911 and the P35, has definite appeal and certainly both have good followings, but there is a place for the repeat strike semi-auto as well.

danez71
February 23, 2010, 08:09 PM
Maybe it stems from the black powder days when a FTF happened I think it was common to try to fire it again before unpacking and start over again.

The principle of trying again before starting over isnt a novelty and applies to many things.

To answer your last questions.... I dont think its a bad idea/it cant hurt having the option... yes, mostly marketing ploy.... not a new great thing but an old mediocre thing in a newer platform

Shadow 7D
February 23, 2010, 09:01 PM
Double action??

in a serious fighting weapon, John Moses Browning got it right, if the round didn't fire the first time tap, rack....

second strike could mean that your brain get in the line of
point gun pull trigger gun goes boom
pull trigger click....click....click

mgmorden
February 23, 2010, 09:13 PM
I think it's a positive feature to have, but I don't place a whole lot of importance on it (evidenced by the fact that the gun I bought for carry - a Ruger LCP - doesn't have 2nd strike capability).

It's more of a "Oh, that's cool" feature when mentioned, but it won't make or break my decision. Aside from a few "work" guns that have specific purposes, most of my guns I buy with the intent to have fun at the range, so a lot of such features really don't matter a lot to me. Heck the only handgun I've ever had snap on me at all was an old FIE .22LR SA revolver.

AK103K
February 23, 2010, 09:39 PM
Its just something some autos can do, just due to the mechanics of the design.

Realistically, if its an auto and goes "click", it immediately goes, TRB. Not "click" again.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 23, 2010, 09:56 PM
click-rack-tap-bang vs click...click...click...click
you be the judge

Zerodefect
February 23, 2010, 10:54 PM
Restriking just wastes 1 or two more seconds that you should have used for tap, rack, bang.

If it didn't fire the first time it ain't going to fire the second. practice the T/R/B until it's instinctive, easy, and quick.

usp9
February 24, 2010, 05:54 AM
Marketing ploy?

It was a requirement for military pistol procurement up until the latest Joint Combat pistol trials. That made it very important to anyone wanting to sell to the U.S. Government.

easyg
February 24, 2010, 11:51 AM
I agree with what some of the others have already said....

Second-strike capability is just a waste of time IMO.

Shawn Dodson
February 24, 2010, 11:56 AM
Pressing the trigger a second time might clear one type of stoppage. Tap, Roll & Rack will positively clear it and several other, more likely, stoppages.

armchairQB
February 24, 2010, 12:02 PM
With the Hi Powers 32 lb mainspring, I am pretty sure a second hit wouldnt detonate the thing anyway. I wont worry too much about double strike for my carry pistol.

possum
February 24, 2010, 12:32 PM
for the untrained the 2nd strike capanility might be a plus, however when i hear a click instead of a bang, i conduct tap, rack and bang, so the 2nd strike capability has no use to me personally. to others maybe however i am with what works for me, and what works consistantly with a wider range of handguns.

jonboynumba1
February 24, 2010, 01:24 PM
I think the bigger issue as far as Taurus goes is that their millenium guns have poor FCG design and break a lot...second strike might help sell a gun...but designing it so it doesn't break might make more sense...I've sent like 3-4 millenium/24/7/pro/(whatever the same design is called this week) back for repairs last year alone and between the firing pins and the WAY too light-weight design of the rest of the pistols frankly -we snap the gun with a pen in the barrel before we even take them in pawn or trade anymore...to make sure it isn't already broken (or broken again) They actually feel good in hand...I shot the .45 compact and it surprised me at the range...but I wouldn't trust the design with my life....don't care how many times I can snap it! If they redesigned the FCG's and firing-pin/strikers to something more robust it would be a damn fine lil gun. As it is I try to avoid selling them or taking them in trade...but the customer is always right...and they do sell well. Not sure who else is using that as a marketing gimmick.

BP Hunter
February 24, 2010, 02:07 PM
The 2nd strike capability is an option I think is quite important. Carrying a gun has only one purpose - self defense. Unless, you have ingrained in you rmind the tap, rack and everytime it fails to fire, I think just pulling the trigger again would be much faster and instinctual.

RobMoore
February 24, 2010, 02:21 PM
...and most of the time, a waste of it.

AK103K
February 24, 2010, 02:40 PM
Unless, you have ingrained in you rmind the tap, rack and everytime it fails to fire, I think just pulling the trigger again would be much faster and instinctual.
Thats where the TRB should be, ingrained in the membrane (so to speak :) ).

By not doing it, you've just wasted precious time making clicks and trying to perform an already failed action that rarely works by doing it again and again, and most likely, the next bang you wont hear, wont be coming from your gun.

Sam1911
February 24, 2010, 03:46 PM
By not doing it, you've just wasted precious time making clicks and trying to perform an already failed action that rarely works by doing it again and again, and most likely, the next bang you wont hear, wont be coming from your gun.


Probably the most succinct and valid summation of this thread possible.

Only perhaps beaten by someone in another recent thread who just said, "Ammo's cheap, breathing ISN'T. Tap, rack, bang."

Really, who cares how many times you can make it go "click?" :cool:

-Sam

BP Hunter
February 24, 2010, 05:46 PM
I'm sure everybody has had one time or another a round that wouldn't fire on a possible light strike. Have you ever used the ammo again or did you just simply throw it away? So far, the rounds that have failed to go off with me, have always gone off when struck again.

AK103K
February 24, 2010, 06:10 PM
My experience has been that, other than .22LR's, no, none have fired in the fairly rare instances that they didnt fire the first time.

If your having light strikes with your gun, that needs to be addressed. Its not why you might have a 2nd strike capability, it means something is wrong with your gun.

Sam1911
February 24, 2010, 06:41 PM
I'm sure everybody has had one time or another a round that wouldn't fire on a possible light strike. Have you ever used the ammo again or did you just simply throw it away? So far, the rounds that have failed to go off with me, have always gone off when struck again.

I've never kept track, but let's say it's 50% or so. When you're on the range, if you REALLY need to make that one round go off, you can always reload it into the magazine and try dropping the hammer again. If it goes bang, great. If it doesn't, toss it out. That works with a Single-Action gun or any other kind of non-second-strike gun almost as easily as it does in a gun that you can "snap" over and over. There's no time pressure, and very little at stake, so the speed advantage of a "second strike" gun is moot.

But that's NOT THE POINT. The "second-strike" capacity of some guns isn't for saving ammo at the range. It is marketed as a last-ditch self-defense tactic. If you have a misfire, just snap that trigger over and over and maybe the round will light off. Maybe, maybe not. But this is your life on the line and no extra seconds to spend on tactics that don't work -- even 50% of the time (at best).

Your brain needs to be wired to respond to "CLICK," with TAP, RACK, BANG! Not with an impotent "click, click, click!"

-Sam

usp9
February 24, 2010, 07:06 PM
I'd rather have it than not. You can never tell, but that could end up being your only option in a bad situation.

Straight Shooter
February 24, 2010, 07:12 PM
Not just a "click" issue.

If you pull the trigger and there is no bang, there is a problem. What is the problem? The cartridge? FTE? FTF? The mag isn't seated? Is the gun out of battery?

TRB solves all of these problems. Multiple problems, one solution. No need to figure it out in an emergency.

fastbolt
February 24, 2010, 07:15 PM
Well, personally I don't have any idea why some 'reviews' emphasize some of the things the authors decide to emphasize. You'd have to ask them. They undoubtedly have their reasons.

FWIW, my training, skills and reactions to problems aren't dependent or conditioned upon whether or not the pistol I may be carrying has 'second strike capability'. Some of mine do, and some of them don't.

"Second strike capability" isn't on my list of priorities when selecting a new defensive pistol, either, come to think about it ...

Now, when it comes to a DA/DAO revolver ... ;)

BullfrogKen
February 24, 2010, 07:46 PM
I think it started about the time Smith & Wesson began competing with the Colt and Browning market for autoloaders, and has been touted as a "benefit" since.


Pure product-driven feature, not market-driven. It's an important feature because "we build a gun that does it and they don't; therefore it's important you have the ability."


I've never seen such a feature talked up outside of a company's product literature and advertising, or lauded in the gun writer's article . . . which just happens to appear among pages and pages of gun advertising.


I've never seen a reputable school, trainer, department or other quality instruction teaching the technique.


So Billy, that ought to tell you all you need to know about when it became such an important feature.

danez71
February 24, 2010, 08:01 PM
But that's NOT THE POINT. The "second-strike" capacity of some guns isn't for saving ammo at the range. It is marketed as a last-ditch self-defense tactic. If you have a misfire, just snap that trigger over and over and maybe the round will light off. Maybe, maybe not. But this is your life on the line and no extra seconds to spend on tactics that don't work -- even 50% of the time (at best).

Your brain needs to be wired to respond to "CLICK," with TAP, RACK, BANG! Not with an impotent "click, click, click!"

-Sam

(Edited and emphasis added)

Your reason that its a bad idea is actually why its NOT a bad idea.

"Last ditch effort" is correct. Train for TRB but having the option of double strike isnt bad and actually is good.

What happens if your other hand has become useless and you're not able tap RACK and bang?

In that kind of situation I would love to have a 50% of living than near 100% chance of dieing.

I know its a far fetched scenario but so is needing the gun in the first place.

In my experience.... about 60-70% centerfire handgun rounds fired on the 2nd try (assuming they didnt fire the 1st time ;) )

Sam1911
February 24, 2010, 08:17 PM
Your reason that its a bad idea is actually why its NOT a bad idea.O.k. So my reason why it is a bad idea is actually why it is an irrelevant idea. I should be more precise. I wouldn't refuse to use a gun simply because it CAN "second-strike." Sorry.

"Last ditch effort" is correct. Train for TRB but having the option of double strike isnt bad and actually is good.TRB IS my last-ditch effort. There is no problem that it, or a variant of it, doesn't fix. (Well, that could be fixed during the course of firing, anyway. Major parts breakage is a different story. But second-strike doesn't help that much, either. :rolleyes:)


What happens if your other hand has become useless and you're not able tap RACK and bang?Why would my training and practice (and or simple imagination born of necessity) be so deficient that I could not Tap, Rack, and fire with one hand. The idea is nearly inconceivable.

If my weak hand is disabled, and my gun misfires -- if I have any strength left for the fight at all -- I'm not going to sit there like an idiot clicking away at a dud round.

In that kind of situation I would love to have a 50% of living than near 100% chance of dieing.

I know its a far fetched scenario but so is needing the gun in the first place.Needing the gun is far-fetched. Having a dud round in your defensive ammo is far-fetched. Not having the ability to TRB is hard to imagine. Successfully second-striking is more-far-er-fetched yet!

In my experience.... about 60-70% centerfire handgun rounds fired on the 2nd try (assuming they didnt fire the 1st time ) That's pretty specific numbers. And pretty specifically NOT the same percentage others have reported.

I'll throw another "bottom-line" or "take-home-message" out there: I'd choose a defensive pistol primarily on my ability to shoot it accurately and quickly. Is it an action design I like, with controls I prefer, with a trigger reset that's what I want, and a grip size and shape that is comfortable and points naturally? As a second-tier consideration (accuracy and speed being roughly equal) I'd evaluate weight and concealability. Way down the line I might consider cost and aesthetics.

Then, down in the list of things like "celebrity endorsements" and "Does it smell nice?" I'll maybe place the second-strike capability. :D

I don't want to practice second-striking, I don't want to rely on it, I don't want to think of it as my last-ditch option. But, back to your statements, I guess it isn't a BAD feature. Just a NON-feature.

-Sam

PT1911
February 24, 2010, 08:29 PM
I see it as a GOOD thing... typically at the range as ,if the second strike works, it is a round I didnt have to waste... in a self defense situation trb is the best way to go obviously, but there is nothing wrong with trying to get the most out of your ammo when you can... AND.. why the hell not have the option when you can? It is not detracting in any way from the gun. I have had several rounds of good ammunition that didnt fire on the first attempt but worked perfectly on the second attempt... what if it is your last round in said self defense situation.. a on in a million chance that you missed with your first 14 and your last round goes click *( you didnt pack a second mag today.) Why not have that second chance at your last round that just might save your life? Why would you hit with the last round when you missed the first 14? I dunno, Why would a round work the second time around? I dunno. All I do know is these things happen.

Ben86
February 24, 2010, 08:33 PM
I like it, but do not see it as necessary. It is good if you have a hard primer or get a light primer strike. Some say "But then you should tap, rack, bang." I know I will at least pull the trigger again instinctually so I might as well have the 2nd strike capability. The biggest plus is that it makes my dry practice with snap caps much more convenient.

duns
February 24, 2010, 09:30 PM
Your brain needs to be wired to respond to "CLICK," with TAP, RACK, BANG! Not with an impotent "click, click, click!
Wouldn't it depend on how much ammo you have left in your magazine? If you have enough to waste then tap rack bang is the way to go. If you are down to the last round, then second strike capability might be useful.

AK103K
February 24, 2010, 09:54 PM
I think some of the problem here is, some people are thinking about the "range", and others are thing about a "fight", and there are two different mindsets going on. Well, maybe even three. :)

At the range, its no big deal if the gun stops working, and you can fiddle around and figure it out at your leisure without to much worry.

In a fight, if the gun stops working, you dont have time to fool around trying to figure whats wrong with it and why its not working. You do the TRB, and if that doesnt solve the problem, you move on to next page in the plan book. Reload, new gun, knife, sneakers, whatever.

The whole point here is, who cares "why" it stopped, just get it back in action ASAP and continue on.

Sam1911
February 24, 2010, 10:08 PM
If you are down to the last round, then second strike capability might be useful.

If you're down to the last round and you get a dud, then tap, rack, slide locks back -- RELOAD!

You aren't going to be counting rounds in a gun fight. No way. No one does. No one will. So you'll never know that the round you TRB'd out was the last in the mag anyway until you perform the clearing operation and the slide locks back. At that point, I guess you could commence to fretting that if you'd only known it was the last right you might have chosen to take a second strike at it. But it will be too late, so what's the worry?

If you have no reload, then, as AK103K says, you'd better move to the next page in the playbook.

Seriously... when you have to justify the technique as useful only on round 9, 13, 16, or 20 (whatever your mag capacity is +1), it's time to admit that there's really no measurable value in the technique.

What are the odds that a) you are violently accosted and need the gun, and b) you have a malfunction of any kind, and c) the malfunction is a dud round, and d) it was the last round in the mag, and e) you don't have a reload mag? Like 1 to 1,000 (that you'll need the gun) x 1,000 (that you'll have a malfunction) x 1,000 (that the malfunction is a dud round) x 9 (or your mag capacity +1) x 10 (guessing one in ten CCW types don't carry a reload) ... oh x 2 (for a 50% likelihood that the dud might light off the second time anyway)?

This is an argument of vastly diminishing returns.

-Sam

PT1911
February 24, 2010, 10:10 PM
Not saying the thing is the most necessary feature of any gun or necessary at all... but it has its uses...

scythefwd
February 24, 2010, 10:11 PM
Sam1911, you have never had a round go off on the second hit? I've had several. My gun is second strike capable, but my drill is this. Click, click, tap, rack, bang. It takes me less than a second to get that second squeeze in, and it IS faster than TRB. If the second squeeze doesn't fix it, TRB it is... and I am out .5 seconds.

duns
February 24, 2010, 10:20 PM
Sam1911, you have never had a round go off on the second hit? I've had several. My gun is second strike capable, but my drill is this. Click, click, tap, rack, bang. It takes me less than a second to get that second squeeze in, and it IS faster than TRB. If the second squeeze doesn't fix it, TRB it is... and I am out .5 seconds.
So if you have the second strike capability, you might as well try it before TRB because it takes hardly any time? I don't disagree.
Seems to me second strike capability is a positive but not necessarily enough to rule out pistols that don't have it. It's a nice toi have but not an essential.

BullfrogKen
February 24, 2010, 10:21 PM
. . . still waiting to hear of a school, department, instructor, whatever where this sort of approach to a failure to fire is taught.

Sam1911
February 24, 2010, 10:23 PM
Sam1911, you have never had a round go off on the second hit? I've had several.
Actually, if you read my other posts, I mentioned that I've had this happen. Sure. Some went off. Especially some where I was messing with light mainsprings on competition revolvers. Too light hits. But that's a gun problem that doesn't apply to (my) defensive firearms. They hit primers solidly, I know this, shoot and clean them often, and am confident that if the hammer or striker falls, the primer was soundly hit. I'm not going to waste time fooling with that round.

My gun is second strike capable, but my drill is this. Click, click, tap, rack, bang. It takes me less than a second to get that second squeeze in, and it IS faster than TRB. If the second squeeze doesn't fix it, TRB it is... and I am out .5 seconds.

First off, I doubt it takes you .5 sec to get that second click in. Probably more like .2. TRB shouldn't take much over .5 to get done.

That does seem like the wisest way to use the feature, if you are wedded to it. I carry a variety of defensive guns. I can't practice a failure technique that only works for some. My 1911 or xD isn't going to go "click, click" no matter how hard I pull the trigger, so I'm going to practice the technique that works for all the autos I carry.

If you only carry "second strike" guns, then the click, click, TRB thing could work. As I mentioned before, though, I won't consider the second strike capability as a primary driver for which guns I carry and shoot, in fact I can't think of any SS-capable guns off the top of my head that I DO like, so even if I've got SOME, I won't wire that technique into my brain because it won't work for the rest. And this is something you have to teach yourself to do without thinking about it.

("Click, squeeeeze....oh yeah, this is a 1911, skip ahead to TRB." Not gonna cut it.)

-Sam

mljdeckard
February 24, 2010, 10:40 PM
I can't remember the last time I had a failure to fire. Wait, no, I can, it was in a T-92 I got rid of about 18 years ago that had a faulty double action. Point is, it's VERY rare, especially in a gun you have properly tested for defensive carry.

Here's the problem. You fire and get a click. What is the best thing to do? Fire AGAIN and get ANOTHER click? (That's what's going to happen.) The vast majority of FTFs are from bad primers. Hitting it again isn't going to make fire either, and now you STILL need to clear the malfunction, and you have wasted time.

Most FTFs will not be remedied with another whack to the primer. Clearing the malfunction is the best way to get the gun running again.

REAPER4206969
February 24, 2010, 11:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

scythefwd
February 25, 2010, 12:39 AM
Sam, I can definitely see your point. If I ever get a gun that isn't sa/da, then I will change my practice to meet the new situation, but so far everything I own is SA/DA. I was being very conservative on that .5 seconds.

mljdeckard, if you are reloading your SD ammo, a mis-seated primer is as much a possibility as a bad primer is. I have only had 3 rounds not go off after a second strike. All three were .22lrs. I had my .38spc double strikes go boom once or twice, and only once or twice ever in my 9mm. I have never had one that didn't go off after the second click on centerfire ammo.

mljdeckard
February 25, 2010, 12:43 AM
I will still say that it's rare enough that I will trust a recock and fire as much as I would trust a second strike.

Perhaps another reason not to use handloads for SD unless you are competent enough to not wonder if there is any difference at all between your loads and factory loads.

Shadow 7D
February 25, 2010, 03:48 AM
The whole "second strike" feature is the same as double action in a semi, or the ablity to cock the gun with the trigger from the uncocked state (versus semi or half cocked that glocks, XD's and Keltec use for thier "double action")

So really what we are talking about is ......
Double action semi's
AND THE REST IS MARKETING....

So, if the standard drill is tap rack bang, and this was taught to me in the army on M-9's
that have .... "second strike" or double action, I fail to see the value of continueing to hit a defective round, training this way will just give you the hollywood end, you know the guy who runs out of bullets (say round #15 in a revolver) and gets gunned down while going click click click

Actually thinking of this, we need to push this feature as the latest tactikool so if a sh** ever happens the BG will train himself to keep pulling the trigger on a dud round.

AK103K
February 25, 2010, 08:12 AM
...if you are reloading your SD ammo, a mis-seated primer is as much a possibility as a bad primer is. I have only had 3 rounds not go off after a second strike. All three were .22lrs.
If I were using my reloads in my gun, I would think I would be a little more critical about double checking for something like this before I put the round in the mag. I reload quite a bit, and while it does occasionally happen, its a pretty rare issue. I'm talking something like one in maybe every 10000-20000+ rounds or so (really just a guess, and realistically, its probably more). As I said earlier, factory or reload, none of the centerfire rounds I have had it happen with, went off on the second strike, or at least none that I can remember. Since it is a fairly rare occurrence (unless your using Wolf 7.62x39), its usually a pretty memorable event.

.22LR's on the other hand, have this issue on a pretty regular basis due to their priming system. Repeated strikes to the round without first removing it, usually end up with the same result as the centerfire rounds. Usually though, if you eject the round and reinsert it, it fires on the second hit in a different place on the rim.

One other thing on the reloads. If your having a lot of this going on with your reloads, I would check your equipment and reevaluate your technique. It should be as rare an issue with your reloads as it is with factory ammo. (Unless your a Russian capitalist. :) )

danez71
February 25, 2010, 08:25 AM
. . . still waiting to hear of a school, department, instructor, whatever where this sort of approach to a failure to fire is taught.

I dont know if the following quote is true or not but if it is..... I would guess that if they required it they also train for it in some manner. I would also guess that if they required it they saw some benefit... but apparently not enough to keep it a requirement.

It was a requirement for military pistol procurement up until the latest Joint Combat pistol trials. That made it very important to anyone wanting to sell to the U.S. Government.


Give it time though. They didnt immediatly jump on the manual safety-less pistols idea either. They just havnt sucumbed (sp?) to all the marketing yet ;)

I dont own/like DA/? pistols for me anyways so its moot to me. However, I can also see a use for it. Just not enough for me to not like the trigger the other 99.99999% of the time.

GRIZ22
February 25, 2010, 08:53 AM
I think it started about the time Smith & Wesson began competing with the Colt and Browning market for autoloaders, and has been touted as a "benefit" since.


Actually it was a sales point for the Walther PP when it was introduced in 1929. As has been said, a case of we have this feature and others don't.

Second strike capability in a SD handgun is a useless feature unless that's the last round of ammo you have. The agency I worked for taught tap, rack, and bang when we got 6906s and this is the only tactic to use with any semi-auto AFAIC.

scythefwd
February 25, 2010, 04:13 PM
AK103 and Mljdeckard- never had a reload fail to fire on first try, but I know it does happen due to poorly seated primers. I have only had it happen on 2-3 times on either one of my DA guns using factory ammo. I have been shooting for 20 years almost, so I will admit it is a very rare occasion.

makarovnik
February 25, 2010, 07:55 PM
I think it is important and I'm tired of manufacturer's calling autos without second strike capability DAO. It is not double action anything unless pulling the trigger cocks AND releases the striker/firing pin/hammer. You don't want to have to tap and rack if the only ammo you have left in your gun is the last live round that you just ejected onto the ground.

usp9
February 25, 2010, 08:06 PM
I think it is important and I'm tired of manufacturer's calling autos without second strike capability DAO. It is not double action anything unless pulling the trigger cocks AND releases the striker/firing pin/hammer. You don't want to have to tap and rack if the only ammo you have left in your gun is the last live round that you just ejected onto the ground.

Well said on both points.

AK103K
February 25, 2010, 08:11 PM
If you dropped a hammer on it, and it didnt go off, it was most likely dead, and still is dead, and still wouldnt be going off, no matter how many more times you pull the trigger on it.

If it is your last round, and you even know it, what does it matter? If you do the TRB, and the slide locks back, you reload and go on. If you dont have any ammo left to reload with, then you move on to something else.

Why is this so hard to understand? Is there some sort of "click" fetish going on here and I'm missing out, or what?

AK103K
February 25, 2010, 08:17 PM
Here, for those that dont trust what those here who seem to understand do, maybe a visual will help from someone with more accreditation......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug&feature=PlayList&p=8C787DE0C3CE0542&index=5

RobMoore
February 25, 2010, 09:33 PM
I have never had a semi auto with "second strike" capability fail to fire on the first time, and suddenly work on the second without removing the round and refeeding it. The round is either a dud, or there is something wrong with the gun, such as it being slightly out of battery. TAP-RACK fixes both of these. Simply clicking again changes nothing about the situation.

You would be foolish to train yourself to try "clicking" again as a failure drill, hoping that someday it will work when it is your last round, which you won't know anyway, because people don't count rounds successfully in gunfights.

If you come upon the odds of
#1 getting into a gunfight
#2 going through ALL your ammunition except that last round
#3 having that last round be viable, yet fail to fire on the first click
I think its safe to say step #4 isn't going to be the round firing on the second click. Your luck has shown otherwise.

Sam1911
February 26, 2010, 09:26 AM
I think it is important and I'm tired of manufacturer's calling autos without second strike capability DAO. It is not double action anything unless pulling the trigger cocks AND releases the striker/firing pin/hammer. You don't want to have to tap and rack if the only ammo you have left in your gun is the last live round that you just ejected onto the ground.

I really don't get it.

1) It is established that, if you are in a gun fight, you WON'T be counting rounds. Ergo, you will not realize that your dud is the last round in the mag.

2) It is established that Tap-Rack-Bang is the BEST response to ALL autoloader malfunctions because it clears the highest number of different malfs. quickly, getting you back in the game. SO, that is what you are going to try first.

Ergo: If you find a dud, and you Tap-Rack-... and the gun goes to slide lock, that round is on the ground ANYWAY, before your brain has time to ponder the situation. So a second strike is irrelevant.

As AK103K says, you either reload or, failing the forethought to have brought another mag, you move to another plan.

How is this so confusing?

-Sam

Ben86
February 26, 2010, 10:54 AM
It is established that Tap-Rack-Bang is the BEST response to ALL autoloader malfunctions

Not so, if it is a double feed it will just make it worse. I still believe in taking a quick glance at your gun to identify the problem is best. Perhaps not possible in all situations, but I don't think it should be taught to never bother looking, just tap rack bang it back into action.

Jeff F
February 26, 2010, 11:32 AM
Need second strike capability, carry a revolver.

Sam1911
February 26, 2010, 11:41 AM
Ben86, please quote my entire line if you want to use part of what I said as an example. It may be important. In this case, it is:

It is established that Tap-Rack-Bang is the BEST response to ALL autoloader malfunctions because it clears the highest number of different malfs. quickly, getting you back in the game.

It also won't fix a broken firing pin, a bent mag lip, a broken hammer strut, or a large number of other problems. But, for the most common set of problems that an otherwise proved functional gun might experience, it takes care of a great number of them.

And, if your gun fails to extract and tries to feed a fresh round on top of the spent case (I assume this is what you meant by "double-feed" ... I've never seen a handgun try to strip two rounds out of the mag at the same time), at worst you're back where you started and can "Strip, Rack, Reload, Rack, Bang."

Or were you going to explain how cycling the trigger and "second-striking" would help you out if your gun fails to extract / "double-feeds"? If so, wow! I need to learn that technique!

-Sam

RobMoore
February 26, 2010, 12:09 PM
Ben: Tap Rack is a primary, or immediate action to clear the gun. I've seen it work for certain types of malfunctions that I thought were only clearable using the secondary, or remedial action. I set up students guns to do this all the time. Most of the time they do have to perform secondary, but not every time. Use Tap Rack first, then go to remedial if necessary.

By secondary, I mean removal of the magazine and cycling of the gun. That is the typical method being taught.

I prefer to lock it open first, because a) that takes most of the pressure off the magazine and makes removing it easier, and b) allows the obstruction to fall free once the magazine is removed. Most of the time actually cycling the gun isn't necessary when you lock it to the rear first. Lock (the gun open), Pull (the magazine out), Look (that the gun is clear), Load (the magazine).

Bang, bang, bang, click (or nothing): Tap Rack, still nothing: Lock Pull Look Load.

During that "look" phase, if I see a spent casing failed to extract, I just cycle the gun once or twice and move on from there. I actually had to do that at on a stage at the Blackwater IDPA Shootout this past fall.

Ben86
February 26, 2010, 08:39 PM
Sorry Sam1911 I'll be sure to quote your whole contradictory sentence next time.

I see the usefulness in the TRB drill, but my point is that I don't see it as an excuse to not look at the gun first and see what the problem is, as some people seem teach. Also, from what I can tell most people pull the trigger, or at least attempt to, multiple times before realizing there is a problem. Hence my argument is that second strike capability, while not crucial, is good to have.

RobMoore
February 26, 2010, 08:49 PM
I'd say those "most people" need more practice, not "second strike" capable guns.

The biggest error I see with people is stopping to stare at the gun in wonder when it doesn't work. They pull the trigger, click (or nothing), they stop, bring it down to chest level, and look at it.

Its almost a joke me and my fellow instructors have. We teach "Tap, Rack, Bang", and when people who have been out of training more than a few months have a malfunction they perform

Stop -what you're doing
Stare - at the gun, as if to say "why aren't you working"
Raise - your hand, to tell the instructor behind you "hey, stop the course, my gun jammed"

sometime they add a Smack the side of the gun for good measure.

Ben86
February 26, 2010, 08:59 PM
I would love to see someone smack the side of a gun in bewilderment to try and get it working properly, that's hilarious!

Do you teach your students to glance at the gun before the TRB drill, or to look at the gun if the TRB drill does not clear the malfunction.?

RobMoore
February 26, 2010, 09:02 PM
I teach a quick glance as you bring it in to the "work space" to see if it is out of battery, or obstructed (stovepipe?), hopefully recognizing when tap-rack is appropriate, and when other clearance will be needed.

bds
February 26, 2010, 09:08 PM
How about this to consider?

Tap-Rack-Bang is an integral part of our match shooting to quickly clear most semi-auto problems (FTE/double feed requires more).

You can do Tap-Rack-Bang on ANY semi-auto, INCLUDING the semi-auto pistols with the double(multi)-strike trigger. So, having the double(multi)-strike trigger is an additional feature you can choose not to use. I have a PT145Pro with DA/SA and multi-strike trigger and I treat the trigger like my other Glocks.

If Glock offered external safety option in addition to the internal safeties, you could choose to use or not use the external safety. I just view the multiple-strike trigger option as another feature. I have never used the accessory rails on my pistols, but I don't hate them. It's another feature.

Sam1911
February 26, 2010, 09:37 PM
Sorry Sam1911 I'll be sure to quote your whole contradictory sentence next time.
Excuse me? I find no contradiction in the sentence I wrote. Enlighten me.

I see the usefulness in the TRB drill, but my point is that I don't see it as an excuse to not look at the gun first and see what the problem is, as some people seem teach.
First of all, looking at the gun isn't very useful. It can tell you if you have a stovepipe or a failure-to-feed or such (NOW can we go ahead and TRB?), but it can't tell you the whether your hammer fell on a dud round or the mag wasn't seated fully and no round was chambered. You look and you see the gun is in battery and the hammer is down. What do you do next? Second strike? On a dud? Great. Maybe it goes off. Maybe it doesn't. (NOW can we go ahead and TRB?) Or did it fall on an empty chamber because the mag was slightly unseated? (NOW can we go ahead and TRB?)

So I suppose you should really take more than a second to peer at the gun and figure out what went wrong. Turn it over and look at the mag. Is it seated? Looks like it. Well, then -- I probably have a dud. Let's roll the dice on that again! Now, what were we doing here? Oh, right, I'm in the middle of a gunfight!

:rolleyes:

If you practice malfunction clearing the way that most accomplished shooters and trainers appear to teach it, there is no time wasted in looking at the gun and trying to comprehend WHY it stopped. Who cares WHY it stopped? All you need to comprehend is "click." The response to "click" is Tap-Rack-Bang. That gets your next shot downrange fastest -- in the majority of failure cases.

It doesn't matter if the round was a dud -- Tap-Rack-Bang.
It doesn't matter if the mag wasn't seated -- Tap-Rack-Bang.
It doesn't matter if the round was out-of-spec and the gun didn't go into battery fully -- Tap-Rack-Bang.

And so on. The beauty of the system is that you can do this MUCH faster than you can do a visual inspection and assess which solution to apply. (You're probably going to disagree with that, which is fine, but those who study these things say it is true.) You don't take your focus off the threat. You don't stop and ponder why your gun stopped. You just Tap-Rack-Bang, running on reflexive training.

If the malfunction is something more serious -- like a failure-to-extract, or as you called it a "double feed," -- then you will know quickly and can move to a secondary corrective action as we've already covered. If it's a broken part or other serious gun failure, you'll need a change of tactics. Again, clicking away at a "second-strike" trigger mechanism does nothing for any of these.

Also, from what I can tell most people pull the trigger, or at least attempt to, multiple times before realizing there is a problem.This is a failure of training and experience. It is simply an incorrect habit allowed to develop. It should be weeded out just like jerking the trigger or anticipating recoil.

Hence my argument is that second strike capability, while not crucial, is good to have.So, as you've conceded that you understand why TRB is generally the most appropriate response, and we've covered why looking at the gun is an unwise use of precious fractions of a second, so you're left defending the second-strike as a wing-and-a-prayer hope for folks with poor habits and training.

-Sam

Sam1911
February 26, 2010, 09:44 PM
I teach a quick glance as you bring it in to the "work space" to see if it is out of battery, or obstructed (stovepipe?), hopefully recognizing when tap-rack is appropriate, and when other clearance will be needed.

Rob, as noted above, I don't think even this glance is appropriate. Keep focus on the target/threat. TRB. It works. ALMOST always. If it DOESN'T work, move to STRIP-RACK-LOAD-RACK-BANG. If THAT doesn't work...today is not your day.

-Sam

BullfrogKen
February 26, 2010, 10:00 PM
I admit, I must retract an earlier statement of mine.


I've never seen such a feature talked up outside of a company's product literature and advertising, or lauded in the gun writer's article . . . which just happens to appear among pages and pages of gun advertising.


I must also now include the internet.


Amazing how susceptible some are to good marketing . . . .


Still waiting for someone who thinks this is such a good idea to point to towards the school, academy, department, or other well-respected source where he learned it. So far the sources are:

the manufacturer's marketing,
gun writers
and "well I think it's a good idea even if no one else does."

Girodin
February 26, 2010, 10:45 PM
There is a reason no reputable instructor teaches the pull the trigger again method. Tap rack bang is the correct response to getting a click. Pulling the trigger again is time wasted and unlikely to produce a bang. It is unlikely to produce a bang because a light primer strike is only one possible cause (and a pretty dang rare one with a proper gun and decent ammo) of the click. Even if it is the culprit there is a very good chance that a second pull of the trigger wont set it off.

What happens if your other hand has become useless and you're not able tap RACK and bang?

And that right there tells you everything you need to know about the knowledge and training of the person advocating pulling the trigger again (which with all likely hood will produce more clicks). Doing a one handed tap rack bang is a pretty basic skill. Anyone remotely competent with their gun can preform it. It probably takes about a second to do a one handed TRB. It is shocking to me that people can feel the need to carry guns but not the need to learn how to properly use them.

bds
February 26, 2010, 10:58 PM
TRB. It works. ALMOST always. If it DOESN'T work, move to STRIP-RACK-LOAD-RACK-BANG. If THAT doesn't work...today is not your day.

"...today is not your day"??? No, No, No!!! That's when you reach for the BACK UP gun.

Never give up ...:D

The Lone Haranguer
February 27, 2010, 04:04 PM
Failures to fire, absent a major mechanical problem with the gun, are almost invariably from a dud round. It is very unlikely that such a round is going to go off the second time, either. I've taught myself to shuck the dud round and feed a new one, so "second strike" means little to me. The only time it has ever worked was with a Ruger Old Army (a cap-and-ball revolver) where it took two strikes on each cap to seat them firmly on the nipples so they would fire. :p (I solved this by going from a #10 to a #11 cap.)

Ben86
February 28, 2010, 01:10 AM
Excuse me? I find no contradiction in the sentence I wrote. Enlighten me.

It is established that Tap-Rack-Bang is the BEST response to ALL autoloader malfunctions because it clears the highest number of different malfs.

This statement seemed contradictory to me because how can a drill be the best response to ALL when it works for MOST? I just don't like "one size fits all" responses to any situation. I prefer to identify the problem and act accordingly, so I still believe that a quick glance is the way to go. We can agree to disagree on this one. This has been an interesting debate, but I hate to high jack this thread.

bds
February 28, 2010, 01:15 AM
I prefer to identify the problem and act accordingly, so I still believe that a quick glance is the way to go.

That would work IF there was sufficient lighting to SEE the chamber/ramp/round/magazine.

Our range master made us do our clearing drills with our eyes closed to imitate low/no light situations. Regardless of firearm used, it was tap, rack, bang - if no bang, lock slide, drop mag, clear/check chamber, replace mag/tap, rack, bang. He often made his SWAT training teams do their room clearing drills with low light/almost no light to duplicate building losing electricity/power.

dfjaws
February 28, 2010, 01:20 AM
Need second strike capability, carry a revolver.
Or this...

http://www.ugimports.com/shop/images/products/hkusp40.jpg

Sam1911
February 28, 2010, 08:37 AM
Excuse me? I find no contradiction in the sentence I wrote. Enlighten me.
It is established that Tap-Rack-Bang is the BEST response to ALL autoloader malfunctions because it clears the highest number of different malfs.
This statement seemed contradictory to me because how can a drill be the best response to ALL when it works for MOST? I just don't like "one size fits all" responses to any situation. I prefer to identify the problem and act accordingly, so I still believe that a quick glance is the way to go. We can agree to disagree on this one. This has been an interesting debate, but I hate to high jack this thread.

TRB is the correct response to ALL autoloader malfunctions because in a gun fight you shouldn't be taking the time to analyze the situation and identify the problem. TRB is THE first response because it will deal with MOST problems in the shortest amount of time.

You don't like "one size fits all" responses, but that's what works the FASTEST the MOSTEST. Tap-Rack-Bang and you've just solved out-of-battery, unseated mag, dud round, bad primer, out of spec round, stove-pipe jam, and a variety of other variants.

As I've pointed out, staring at the gun DOESN'T tell you much. It really DOESN'T help. At best, it will help you understand WHY you should TRB...but we already knew that. (Hey, look, the mag's out. Hey, look, stovepipe. Hey, look, the gun's not in battery. Etc. Etc.) Or it confuses the issue by showing you that the hammer's down and the action is in battery which doesn't tell you WHAT the problem is. Could be a dud. Could be an empty chamber. Now I could snap that hammer again, but there's a vanishingly small chance that it will accomplish anything. GEE, BETTER TRB!

Yeah, it could be a failure to extract ("double feed"). That's pretty rare in a tested, functional, defensive gun. And if that's the ONE thing you're going to stop the gunfight and look for, then you're training for the least likely circumstance, to the detriment of your speed in all of the other, much more common, circumstances.

Who cares why? Don't glance. Don't analyze. Just TRB and go.

This has been thought through and tested by far better "gunnie" minds than me, and is taught by every trainer I've heard of.

-Sam

RobMoore
February 28, 2010, 08:54 AM
That is the first time I've heard "Mostest" used in a sentence since happy days. Bravo.

AK103K
February 28, 2010, 09:20 AM
TRB is the correct response to ALL autoloader malfunctions because in a gun fight you shouldn't be taking the time to analyze the situation and identify the problem.
Like it or dont, this is the correct answer.

If you dont understand that, then I think you need to critically, and realistically, reevaluate your priorities.

If you still want to argue that doing something other than a TRB is the correct course, then your going to have to provide something a little more substantial than just your opinion on the matter, or this will just go endlessly on.


Hmmm, I wonder if I can get a federal grant to study this? Its got to be worth a couple of mil, dont you think? Hell, two thirds of the study is already done here. :)

Zerodefect
February 28, 2010, 11:09 AM
Time out?

Do revolvers really have a second strike capability?? Don't they just move to the next chamber when you pull the trigger again? (<-semiauto guy)

What if its allready an empty chamber, then you have to go all the way around right?

RobMoore
February 28, 2010, 11:13 AM
Yeah, and I've seen IDPA revolver shooters fail to fire the 4th or 5th round in and have to click all the way around again. That normally isn't an ammo problem, but a faulty gun that has been tinkered with to lighten the trigger press. I don't know why they don't just go to the reload, but I don't shoot SSR/ESR.

AK103K
February 28, 2010, 01:22 PM
Do revolvers really have a second strike capability??
Sort of, they just bypass the issue and do what a TRB does for the auto, with the pull of a trigger.

What if its allready an empty chamber, then you have to go all the way around right?
If it were me, I'd be reloading, but thats just me. Like the autos, revolvers are supposed to go "bang" when the trigger is pulled. If they dont, thats telling you you need to do something, other than to continue to pull the trigger and/or attempt to diagnose the problem. If the reload doesnt solve it, then on to Plan B.

SwampWolf
February 28, 2010, 05:01 PM
Restriking just wastes 1 or two more seconds that you should have used for tap, rack, bang.

No, not really. One or two seconds is an eternity as compared to how long it actually takes to attempt a second strike. The time it takes to pull a trigger a second time can be measured in milli-seconds, after which time the standard clearing process can be employed. Even if the pistol is capable of a second strike, there is nothing to say that you must resort to it. You can go ahead and "tap, rack, bang" if you so choose, without pulling the trigger twice. Whether a pistol has a second-strike feature or not is not a deal-breaker for me. But one that is so equipped does offer a possible advantage, however slight, with no down-side.

The Lone Haranguer
February 28, 2010, 05:19 PM
The greatest fighting pistol ever, the 1911, has no "second strike." Only the dreaded and despised "crunchentickers" (double-action pistols) have it. So we should all switch to those. :p

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