Keltec P11: what should i be looking forward (or not) to?


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LoganDub8388
February 24, 2010, 11:38 PM
Hey guys, have been in the market for a smaller 9mm for a while now and even though i want a g26 eventually i didnt wanna shell out around 500 for one currently since i just picked up 2 brand new pistols this past christmas. Have been looking at the keltec p11 and pf9 for a while and tried both out briefly at my local range (guy had both, he let me shoot them, i let him shoot the pt1911). I decided on the p11 and ordered one in black off buds for 250 delivered. Anything to look out for? positives? negatives? this gun will serve as a CCW and because i can get 9mm WWB at walmart for cheap in my area. thanks guys

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swampboy
February 24, 2010, 11:58 PM
I've had mine for ten years. Eats all factory ammo I've put through it. Clean it. Lube it, especially some grease on the rails, then go shoot it.
You can do the Fluff & Buff (http://www.ktog.org/tecwerks10.htm) if you want to.
They make factory 12 round mags for it now too.

The trigger takes some getting used to. Get some snap-caps and dry fire it a lot to smooth it up and to get used to the long, heavy trigger pull.

I don't like the Glock 26. I love Glocks, but the 26 is just as fat as its big brothers and, to me at least, offers no significant advantage over the G19.

Being one of the older ones, mine was a little rough on the inside, but after I did the F&B, it's pretty smooth. I'm probably close to 1000 rds through mine now and I've never had ONE malfunction using factory ammo.

chris in va
February 25, 2010, 12:42 AM
Snappy recoil, hold on to it. Get the factory belt clip, by far the best way I've found to carry it IWB.

There's a way to lighten up the trigger pull, do a search.

gpr
February 25, 2010, 01:12 AM
ktog.org has a lot of good info....i did the paper clip mod to the trigger, took it to about six pounds....stick with the factory megar mags, 10's or 12's, other brands are hit or miss....gpr

Tamlin
February 25, 2010, 10:46 PM
Had one. Liked it. Ended up with a Kahr P9 Covert. Love it. The Kahr is thinner and a little smaller, but yet had less felt recoil than the Keltec. The Keltec is a good gun with quite a bit of a cult following. Price is always a big consideration. I hope it serves you well.

JoeShmoe
February 25, 2010, 10:53 PM
What should you look forward to? Accuracy. Pretty amazing for a cheap little plastic gun. I like mine a lot. It's in my pocket right now. 115gr Gold Dot in case you're wondering.

MCgunner
February 25, 2010, 10:59 PM
I've owned, fired, carried mine for 14 years now. It's 3.5" at 25 yards accurate from the bench. It's quite easy to hit with, too, off hand. 6" plates at 25 yards are fun to clear with it. Yeah, there are thinner 9s, but they don't hold 11 rounds, either. It's flat enough to hide well in a pocket for me.

It has a long DA trigger that some don't seem to like. If you shoot DA revolvers, though, it'll feel long, but rather smooth and quite light vs your normal J frame. It stages a little at the end to allow for accurate aimed fire.

wild cat mccane
February 25, 2010, 11:24 PM
This comment is real, and will be completely over looked.

The P11 is kel tec's only hand gun that is not drop safe.

Repeat, it has no physical mechanism to stop a round from being fired.

Yes there are tests blah blah blah...at nauseum that is great for the members at KTOG.

Simple fact is, it is not built with a safety mechanism, can and may fire if dropped.

CJ
February 26, 2010, 12:05 PM
I pulled mine out again recently after it was sitting in the safe for a while. Added a snap cap and pulled the trigger a few times and wondered why I thought the trigger was so awful in the past.

Compared to a new 442 I'd picked up, the trigger was a dream (the 442 ended up having about a 14lb pull, since then lightened with some new springs)...however, I'd also modified the P11 with a permanently attached trigger shoe and an overtravel stop. It's coming with me to the range for a good workout next time I can snowshoe up there.

w_houle
February 26, 2010, 12:27 PM
The P11... has no physical mechanism to stop a round from being fired.
Okay, but it's stated as a DAO; so what is the cause for it to discharge when dropped?

natman
February 26, 2010, 12:59 PM
Okay, but it's stated as a DAO; so what is the cause for it to discharge when dropped?
The problem is there is nothing physically stopping the firing pin from contacting the primer if the gun is dropped on its nose.

Now the firing pin is extremely lightweight and the theory is that there is no way the firing pin could develop enough momentum by being dropped to overpower the return spring and fire a primer.

wild cat mccane
February 26, 2010, 01:18 PM
It is stated as a DAO. So is a glock. Both partially cocked aren't they?

Either way, the P11's hammer is not fully down when cocked (has to be cocked if there is a round in the chamber)

Did I make sense? It is not down like you may think a revolver hammer is down. It is actually up. That position is enough to fire if it falls.

I know there are tests in peoples garages and P11's were dropped from the space station and still didn't go off. That is wrong logic. The simple fact is, it can fire if the hammer is released from its position. All other kel tec hand guns have a block. The p11, which weights more, does not. All kel tec hand guns are DAO. See the issue?

I need to find it, it sounds hearsay without the link, but in utah this past year a guy dropped his p11 while sitting in a booth in chilis or applebees (can't remember) and it fired.

I would like to have this gun, but this is a real issue. The folks at KTOG are helpful on issues, but it is a head in the sand approach to this logic. "i couldn't get it to...so it must be true." Should be obvious the fallacy in that.

w_houle
February 26, 2010, 02:20 PM
The problem is there is nothing physically stopping the firing pin from contacting the primer if the gun is dropped on its nose
So the firing pin spring is nothing? The hammer has to overcome that spring to make the gun fire. Or do you think all 1911s without the Schwartz Safety are inherently unsafe?
Either way, the P11's hammer is not fully down when cocked.
... and I wouldn't expect it to, either. What would the likelihood of discharge if the hammer did go all the way down? The hammer isn't all the way back either, so under the event the hammer does drop: It should not possess enough inertial force to overcome the spring that holds the firing pin back.

wild cat mccane
February 26, 2010, 02:43 PM
Well, we can argue your point, which I am not sure what your point is ...the P11 does not have a drop safety.

Can you please name me all the modern 9mm being currently produced that doesn't have a drop safety?

If the P3AT, their .380, weights less has a drop safety I am curious why it is necessary since their heavier P11 doesn't have one.

But lets look at the facts shall we?

http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptest.htm
Summery, it does not have a drop safety, still, and can fire.

If it were drop safe, no primer would ever be hit.

"So the firing pin spring is nothing? The hammer has to overcome that spring to make the gun fire. Or do you think all 1911s without the Schwartz Safety are inherently unsafe?"
Yes, just like any other gun. And yet, we still have drop safeties....

Nico Testosteros
February 26, 2010, 02:49 PM
My P11 was the first gun I bought, about 13 years ago.
I consider it was a great first gun to buy.
Cheap, easy to field strip and clean, cheap to shoot (back then), and if you can shoot it well, you can shoot anything well.
I do have the belt clip, magazine extension, trigger shoe, and the pencil eraser overtravel stop mod.
The latter two do help to make it easier to shoot, I believe.

I've put 1000s of rounds through it. I like it a lot.

Visit KTOG and read around over there. Some good information to be learned.

NG VI
February 26, 2010, 03:18 PM
The problem is there is nothing physically stopping the firing pin from contacting the primer if the gun is dropped on its nose.

Now the firing pin is extremely lightweight and the theory is that there is no way the firing pin could develop enough momentum by being dropped to overpower the return spring and fire a primer.

Aha, much like a (Series 70?) 1911 safety then?

And the Glock 26/27 are way smaller than the 19/23, yes they are just as wide, but it is flat wideness and the subcompact Glocks are so much shorter, I can quite easily conceal one under a slim fitting t-shirt where a compact would look like a massive gun-tumor.

As far as the P11, I want one, MCgunner's experience with his just confirms how much I want to give one a shot.

NG VI
February 26, 2010, 03:26 PM
I guess if you put it in a Gauss gun and it impacted muzzle-first it could go off. I have never heard of it happening in real life though.

Old Shooter
February 26, 2010, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE][I need to find it, it sounds hearsay without the link, but in utah this past year a guy dropped his p11 while sitting in a booth in chilis or applebees (can't remember) and it fired.
/QUOTE]

I carry a P11 daily and I don't believe this statement for a second. If a P11 discharged in a chilis or applebees in Utah it was because somebody was playing with it and pulled the trigger. They then told all the excited patrons that "Oh my God! I dropped it and it went off all by itself!" No way, not from seated in a booth position.

Nico Testosteros
February 26, 2010, 03:56 PM
It appears there were 2 AD/ND incidents in Utah involving concealed carry.
The first involved a guy who "dropped" his Kahr while in the bathroom. Probably pulled the trigger while pulling his pants up or something is the speculation.


The 2nd, most likely involving a P11 (in an Olive Garden), according to the discussion on UtahConcealedCarry.com is summarized by a TV station below. Note it does NOT involve the P11 being dropped.
Here's an actual link: http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4937&st=0&sk=t&sd=a


PROVO -- The sound of gunfire disrupted a quiet lunch at a popular restaurant in Provo. No one was hurt Wednesday afternoon when the gun fired at the Olive Garden restaurant on 504 W. 2230 North, but it rattled several customers who were shocked to hear a gunshot while eating lunch.

It's another case of a gun that belonged to a concealed-carry permit holder going off in public. No one missed out on their lunch except the man with the gun. He was taken into custody by police until they determined what happened was an accident.


It's the second time in just a couple of months that a concealed weapon permit holder's gun has misfired in a public restaurant.

Talia Hudson and her mother had looked forward to meeting for lunch at the Olive Garden for a month. While they were enjoying their meals, they heard the loud bang. Hudson said, "We were just sitting there and we heard this bang, and my mom said, ‘Is that a gunshot?' And I said, ‘That's a gunshot.' And she said, ‘No way.' And I said, ‘I think that was a gunshot,'"

Other customers heard the shot and also believed it was a gun.

Customer Barbara Kunzler said, "Our server to our table said it must have been something that just dropped, and we said, ‘No, it was a gun.' And she went and investigated and said, ‘Yes, it was a gun.'"

The gun is a 9 mm handgun.

Lt. John Geyerman, with the Provo Police Department, said, "An individual had a concealed weapons permit. The gun was in its holster on its side. He was sitting down in a chair and reached down to do something to the gun, and it went off and discharged one round into the chair."

Police took the gun's owner into custody, and he was questioned at the police station until officers decided the gun was accidentally discharged.

Less than two months ago, on Jan. 13 at a Carl's Jr. in Centerville, a 26-year-old man's gun fell out of the holster and fired while he was in the bathroom. The bullet blew the toilet apart, but no one was seriously hurt.

The state agency that issues concealed-carry permits calls cases like these unacceptable.

Jeff Dunn, an investigator with the Utah Department of Public Safety, said, "You do have negligent discharge. I wish I could say there wasn't. Some people do make mistakes, but I wish I could say there wasn't because firearm safety should be No. 1."

Provo police released the man Wednesday afternoon and cited him for discharging a weapon within city limits, a misdemeanor. They kept his gun, however. The state will investigate and decide if the man will get to keep his permit or if it will be suspended or revoked.

wild cat mccane
February 26, 2010, 04:12 PM
if you look again there was one yesterday at the SLC international airport. Gun dropped, bang.

Last year a gun fell out of car of a couple returning from shooting. It was a .22. Killed the young wife. Shot in the stomach. Provo, Utah I believe.

You are playing the odds. Your choice. Since I move the gun on and off my body everyday, the chances of dropping it are higher than my chances of ever needing it for protection.

Therefore, without a drop safety, I see that a non drop safety gun is more dangerous to those around me than not carrying a gun at all.

Ever used your gun vs. ever dropped your gun. If you dropped your gun you put others in danger man than you have ever saved with that gun.

I understand wanting such a small and weightless gun. I do. Just remember you wont hear this stuff at KTOG.

wild cat mccane
February 26, 2010, 04:14 PM
thank you for that story.

http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptest.htm

this still stands however. dropped from 3 feet.

"I decided to try my own drop test to see how my P-11 would do. It did not due so well" (his mistake, not mine)

This is the KTOG member locki? famous for about everything Kel Tec related.

Nico Testosteros
February 26, 2010, 04:23 PM
I'm not saying the P11 won't or will drop if fired.
I'm just pointing out the incident in Utah wasn't due to a P11 being dropped.
I agree with you that it would be better if it did have a drop safety.
If this is a big issue for someone, the PF9 is an alternative.
My buddy has one and though the trigger pull is long, it's lighter than my P11s.

And as an alternative to the OPs preference for a G26, I'd venture the possibility of "glocking" someone or something while pulling the gun is greater than the possibility of a drop fire with the P11. Just my belief. I have no data to back it up.
I wouldn't want either situation to occur.

And it appears the situation yesterday in SLC was not due to a gun being dropped. The news stories I can find say the weapon was "either mishandled or dropped" and that the owner thought it was unloaded. Sounds like mishandled to me. It definitely wasn't unloaded.

w_houle
February 26, 2010, 04:24 PM
Ever used your gun vs. ever dropped your gun. If you dropped your gun you put others in danger man than you have ever saved with that gun.
Is there a point to your rant beside a grudge?

wild cat mccane
February 26, 2010, 05:08 PM
I have a P3AT in my pocket. Can't be a grudge.

Did the original poster know there wasn't a drop safety? He asked for things to be aware of.

So far I have provided his request. You came in and said otherwise...So where does that put you in this 'grudge?'

Are you upholding the sacred virginity of the kel tec p11?

And even to this post, the P11 still doesn't have a drop safety mechanism...It is a mechanical device. I have already said i want this mechanical device. I said a concern you don't hear about often because some KT fans over shout the positives while purposefully neglecting the negatives.

natman
February 27, 2010, 02:47 AM
So the firing pin spring is nothing? The hammer has to overcome that spring to make the gun fire. Or do you think all 1911s without the Schwartz Safety are inherently unsafe?



If you had read my entire post you would have seen the following:

"Now the firing pin is extremely lightweight and the theory is that there is no way the firing pin could develop enough momentum by being dropped to overpower the return spring and fire a primer."

And no, the firing pin spring does not physically stop the firing pin from contacting the primer. If it did the gun could not fire.

I'm not making any judgments one way or the other. The poster asked why and I tried to explain it. You want to argue, respond to wild cat mccane. He's the one that said it was not safe.

CajunBass
February 27, 2010, 08:08 AM
The only complaint I had with mine was it does have a rather "snappy" recoil. Not bad for a box of ammo, but I once went to 70 rounds and my arm tingled for a day or two afterwards.

Other than that, great little gun.

atomd
February 27, 2010, 08:09 AM
And even to this post, the P11 still doesn't have a drop safety mechanism...It is a mechanical device. I have already said i want this mechanical device.

Why? Tons of us carry 1911s without such a device. It's perfectly safe. If you drop it, it's not going to fire (unless maybe you launch it into a wall at 120mph muzzle first or something). There's bigger and better things to worry about.

wild cat mccane
February 27, 2010, 02:33 PM
I said I want the P11. That is what I meant.

I also linked to you a test of the p11 being dropped from pocket height that caused the hammer to jar from your "overcoming the trigger spring" remark, those denting a primer. Thus leading to a fire if dropped.

First you said it wouldn't fire if dropped.

Wrong.

Now you have switched your argument that it is not needed because other guns don't have it.

atomd
February 27, 2010, 05:51 PM
First you said it wouldn't fire if dropped.

Wrong.

Well, it wasn't me who said that initially but I'll respond anyways. With all of those thousands upon thousands of guns (no idea how many hundreds of thousands total) out there that would fit in this scenario, where is just one documented example of just one pistol discharging from being dropped (say from under 10ft or so)? If you're that worried about something silly like this, I don't see how you could leave your house....after all, you could be struck by lightning or hit by a meteorite. Give me one proven, documented example and I'll be happy to stand corrected.

BK
February 27, 2010, 08:25 PM
Can the 12 round mags be found anywhere other than KT?

Shadow 7D
February 27, 2010, 11:03 PM
Yes, you can use S&W, or you can buy keltec from most online distribiters, or you can find one of the other brands, don't know if Mecgar still makes them. It takes some time, and even if it's not drop safe, still a good gun. Very managable and easy to conceal.

clone
February 28, 2010, 12:35 AM
I have the Wolff spring referred to on this site (http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptestresults.htm). I have only dropped it once from a height about 3feet on a hardwood floor and did not have a discharge, thankfully.

Va Shooter
February 28, 2010, 11:36 AM
I've had my P-11 for 15 years now, only problem I've had with it was S&W 15rd mags (made it choke) factory mags 0 issues. Never dropped mine or 70 series 1911:scrutiny:

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