intimidated by getting into ak's.


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AcceptableUserName
February 25, 2010, 11:34 AM
I'm looking to get into quality ak's. I've heard horror stories about Century Arms/WASR stuff but I don't know if that's elitism or what. I realize the AK isn't the most match grade accurate firearm in the world. It can have trigger slap, that's okay too. I just want a gun that'll do what it's supposed to, i.e. put lead downrange reliably and durably for as long as I'm alive and not blow up on me or develop headspace issues, etc. I guess at this point I'm more of an AK guy than an AR guy. I'd also like a weapon that has the warranty...but at the same time probably won't need it.

This being said, what would you recommend? I want something cheap-moderately priced, durable and reliable with minimal guesswork. I am not one for patience or troubleshooting. Mag goes here, bolt pulls back, gun shoots. Repeat. I'd like something I can slightly modify, maybe witha folder, but I like the standard wood stocks too. I'm also open to the Saiga conversion idea, as long as YOU think it'll be reliable and PERMANENT modifications.

Go!

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D Boone
February 25, 2010, 12:05 PM
Seems like you want an AK. Any type will do what you ask of it. Wasr's finish can be rough, but its ok. Goes bang every time, but if you choose one, just look for canted sights (both front and rear) and bull the bolt to see if the gas piston is on straight. If none of the above are present and the price is good, then buy! You can do anything to one of those that you could to any other ak with reguards to furniture etc. If you are intent on a folding stock, you might want to look at an underfolder (polish being my personal fav), or an AMD 65, maybe a Polish Tantal. Underfolder and or AMD will be stuck with the stock they have, no changing those. The AMD you won't be able to do much with the front end furniture unless you want a railed front. Saiga coversion is simple and fun if you have some technical ability and a little patience. In the end you will have a russian ak which is about as nice as it gets right now. The downside is the parts to really ak it up can be more expensive with regards to the front end furniture and front sight block/threaded bbl. If you are content with stock and pistol grip, high cap mags then you can convert for under $100. Don't forget the compliance trigger group parts. Finally some of the nicest AK's came in the early 90's but are pricey, again my personal favorite which I one day hope to own is a nice polytech underfolder/spike bayo. Look around, handle a lot, but with an AK your really with the furniture that comes on them, look at ironwood designs for a lot of wood furniture possibilities.

Good Luck, lets see some pics when you decide.

atlanticfire
February 25, 2010, 12:14 PM
First off, I don't like the idea of chopping up a Saiga to make an "AK" out of it. After owning many of them would not go back that road. I'm sure that comment is going to get all kinds of flack but take it or leave it. I would by the best AK that you can afford. There are many different types of receivers. Milled is best, the M70s also have a heavy receiver. Some AKs are labeled as 1mm and 1.6mm thick steel. Buy from a company that will allow you to buy and shoot the weapon and send it back if you have a problem with it or even simply don't like it. Also many dealers will provide warrant service if you do have an issue down the road, or at least contact the manufacture for you if there is an issue thatís not being taken care of.

desidog
February 25, 2010, 12:15 PM
Saiga.

atlanticfire
February 25, 2010, 12:19 PM
Saiga
Sigh.......typical

lions
February 25, 2010, 12:34 PM
Nothing wrong with the WASR. It is ugly and has a poor finish but those things are in my definition of an AK.
I want something cheap-moderately priced, durable and reliable with minimal guesswork.
Yep, you want a WASR.

AcceptableUserName
February 25, 2010, 12:38 PM
WASR's are pretty plentiful locally at around 350 -400 in my area used. Probably not the BEST price, but it isn't terrible, is it?


I'm not worried about cosmetics are fancy raile this and that, to each their own but that isn't me. I want a gun that's gonna live up to the durability, relianility, simplicity and firepower the AK is known for...


if that's a WASR...fine by me....

unit91
February 25, 2010, 12:42 PM
If you're on a budget, I'd recommend the Inter-Ordnance (commonly called "I.O. Inc") Liberty model. I've purchased two, paid $500 each, and love them both. They're accurate, use new barrels made by Mossberg, and I haven't had any problems with them. I will say both of mine have some machining marks on the receiver, but it doesn't affect the function.

The biggest thing is to avoid canted sights / gas tubes (like atlanticfire said), and worn out barrels. IO Inc will fit the bill. There are better models out there, but I've found that the IO is a good middle-ground between a WASR and an Arsenal.

AcceptableUserName
February 25, 2010, 12:53 PM
what is an AK-47c?


not to divert the thread or offend anyone here, but I'm probably going to end up selling a Doublestar M4gery I have to fund the AK project. So far the AR just isn't for me. I've shot and experienced a few now and to me it just requires too much guess work for my tastes. The entire feel is different to me and call me an ogre, I'm just needing an Ak, please. haha

AcceptableUserName
February 25, 2010, 12:55 PM
can someone recommend a good online site to purchase from? My local gunstore will do the FFL transfer.

ByAnyMeans
February 25, 2010, 12:56 PM
Getting into AK's is not hard at all. Just Google an AK website and read it all. It will give you all the info you need on it's history, operation, breakdown of parts as well as cleaning, and also how to sight it in and use the sight markings.

Personally I have two AK's.
One is a converted Saiga and the other is a cheap Romanian WASR which I stripped the furniture and restained it.
They both function 100% percent and shoot about 3 MOA with Barnaul or Wolf Military Classic and recently I have been using PRIVPATZI. They open up with Golden Tiger to about 4 or so. This is from a bench of course, not offhand.
They both look great especially after redoing the WASR's furniture but the Saiga's fit and finish is a bit nicer. WASR was $350 and Saiga ran around $400 but I did those before prices went crazy and the conversion was done by me.

I nowadays would buy a WASR and redo the furniture. I never found the more expensive ones to give me anything more than a bit nicer finish which if was a real problem could be handled with a can of Duracote. It also has a side mount rail which makes mounting optics very easy. The milled receivers are said to be more accurate but I have never seen this to be true YMMV, I have only found them to be heavier and more money.

I have always had good luck with Classicarms and you can get a Romanian Military version with shooters package delivered for about $440. They also have great customer service and would help if any problem arose with the rifle. When I ordered I asked about the cant and mag issues and was told that they give them a once over before shipping but she would make sure they took care of my rifle. It arrived with everything in line and no magazine wobble, at least no more than my Saiga has which comes from the original factory.



http://www.classicarms.us/



Information site to start at, they have a column on the right that will bring you to a ton of information and links from their that will bring you to others.

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/

http://www.ak-47.us/



Edited to Add:
If you can get a WASR for 350-400 locally then you can chech it out to ensure their is no problems to begin with which is good. I would see if they are the Military version which comes with the slant cut instead of the nut screwed on and also a bayonet lug. The online people I sent you to for $440 plus your FFL fee give you the Military version with sling, 4 mags, mag pouch, bayonet, sling and case plus other small crap like oil bottle. If these extras don't matter then definitely look at your local shops, if having one with the extra little features that make Anit's scream matters then you may have to go online.

ny32182
February 25, 2010, 12:56 PM
Arsenal SGL-21... it is a factory FULL Saiga conversion (front and back). The major components are a high quality build straight out of Russia, and the conversion bits are done by the best mainstream AK company in the US. Personally I'd take one over a WASR every time, but either should be reliable.

Girodin
February 25, 2010, 01:22 PM
A WASR will do everything you stated in your first post, and do it at the lowest. A Saiga conversion will too. A converted Saiga is the best bang for the buck in terms of quality provided you get one at a decent price in the first place, do the work your self and pay a fair price for any parts.

If you want a project then get the saiga if you want out of the box ready to go get the wasr. The "high end" AKs really don't justify their price IMO, and certainly not in terms of function.

AcceptableUserName
February 25, 2010, 01:32 PM
I agree Girodin. An Ak, by nature is supposed to be cheap, or at least affordable, relatively, for the buyer...


Basically, I want a lot of firepower, that I can put on target REASONABLY, thats the keyword..

not worried about mag wobble, noise, trigger slap...all these things to me seem like luxuries. I'm not in the market for luxuries. If I can bypass them great, but theyre not hundreds of dollar type differences to me.

what is NOT negotiable is that the round goes bang like a mutha, will go through hell if need be, minimal jams, won't break, give me fits, etc...I'm honestly ok with 5-10" MOA, you know, CM sized groupings


so upon further eval, you guys still think im ok with a WASR?



if I was a rich guy I'd probably want to stick with the AR, but im on a pretty tight budget and I want something I don'
t want to worry about fouling up, the gas block shooting loose, etc...not too worried about that wuith the AK whereas my m4gery...yeah, a little concerned

ByAnyMeans
February 25, 2010, 01:36 PM
You would be perfect for a WASR. Enjoy

ny32182
February 25, 2010, 01:39 PM
There is nothig magical about the gas blocks on AKs.

If you don't care about the potential issues you mentioned, and are just looking for reliability at the lowest price, the WASR is your gun.

AcceptableUserName
February 25, 2010, 01:44 PM
thanks for all the input. now, lets talk prices. what should I pay reasonably? I'm no tightwad, so I'm ok paying little more than a true bargain, but I don't want to get taken.

What's a good price on a transfer fee?


I'm considering these two :

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct752.aspx
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct765.aspx

nalioth
February 25, 2010, 01:46 PM
not worried about mag wobble, noise, trigger slap...all these things to me seem like luxuries. I'm not in the market for luxuries. If I can bypass them great, but theyre not hundreds of dollar type differences to me.

what is NOT negotiable is that the round goes bang like a mutha, will go through hell if need be, minimal jams, won't break, give me fits, etc...I'm honestly ok with 5-10" MOA, you know, CM sized groupings


so upon further eval, you guys still think im ok with a WASR? You'll get far more for your money with a Saiga.

The WASRs are built from recycled and rejected military parts, and you just don't know what you're gonna end up with.

The Saiga is brand new production, using many 1st quality military parts (it is a "sporting rifle"). No "seconds" or "rejected for military use" parts in it. The Saiga is also cheaper.

ByAnyMeans
February 25, 2010, 01:58 PM
Found the Romanian specific website, great to review no matter what AK you choose.

http://www.novarata.net/Linx310/model.htm



The two you are looking at are good. The AK47c I don't have any experience with but Atlantic Firearms is good so with the lifetime warranty any issues would be covered.
The second one you posted is the same as the one from ClassicArms. It's about a hundred dollars more than Classic and fifty bucks less if you get the shooters package with free shipping.

unit91
February 25, 2010, 02:06 PM
what is an AK-47c?




Yeah, I'm not sure why IO adds the "C" to all their model names. I also own an AUSA / RPG Arms AK and all the IO parts are interchangeable with the it. Maybe their own versioning nomenclature on the furniture configuration? The steel is all the same as what you and I would think of as an AK-47 (which is actually an AKM).

briansmithwins
February 25, 2010, 02:34 PM
The Arsenal SGLs seem to have a good reputation.

If you may want to have a folder you pretty much need to go that route from the first Both the underfolders and left side folders require a different receiver. Of the various types of folders I'd only want the left side folder or the solid stock. The left side folder doesn't adversely effect cheekweld and locks up solid.

Underfolders have poor cheekweld and a tendency to go wobbly. The right side wire folders are pretty miserable in the cheekweld department too.

My Arsenal SLR107FR. BSW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1585.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1586.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1002Medium.jpg

Hizzie
February 25, 2010, 02:43 PM
Get a WASR. Not that GP1975. Check for:
Front Sight Cant
Gas Block Cant
Rear Sight Block Cant
Magazine Fit (try several mags-they should lock up tight and not droop in the rear)

This is the most bang for the buck. You can customize at will. Pretty much ANY furniture or flash hider (14mm LH) will work as long as you keep 922r parts count in mind.

Steel surplus mags work just fine. US Palm makes a USA made AK mag that is getting good reviews. In regards to ammo. Try severals brands/bullet weights/styles to find out what your gun likes. Get an AK sight tool.

unit91
February 25, 2010, 02:43 PM
That's a beautiful rifle, BSW. I didn't see much of the typical silver arc under your safety. Do they put in extra clearance between the arm and the receiver, or was that a pre-abuse photo? Again, though, congrats on the awesome-looking rifle.

C-grunt
February 25, 2010, 03:06 PM
Ive had 2 WASR rifles. The first one I bought iwhen I was senior in high school had a problem. The mag well was reall rough and didnt like to release mags. A little TLC with a file solved this.

My second one a couple years ago was great right out of the box.

Both were very reliable weapons and were accurate enough out to say 2-300 yards.

briansmithwins
February 25, 2010, 03:23 PM
Those pics are post Duracoating. I really should take some more of how it looks now after a few hundred rounds and a couple rifle matches.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1587.jpg

BSW

GPWASR10
February 25, 2010, 04:12 PM
My first Evil Rifle was a WASR10, hence the name. I traded it for a Numbers Matching non import marked KAR98k w/ original sling. It was easy to let go of with a trade like that ;-).

Anyways, it served me well for about 3 years going up with my pretty regulerly for range day. Never gave me a bit of trouble. Just don't buy one sight unseen, pick the best from a lot of them as they are a little quirky.

I now have a Yugoslavian M-70 in it's place wich I consider to be one of the best buys in the world of commercial AKM's, and a Hungarian AMD-65, which is just a neat little rifle.

An WASR-10 is a great buy as a starter AK, it's cheap and will let you know if you wanna persue a "better" version.

Gunfighter123
February 25, 2010, 04:18 PM
I've owned 4 WASRs --- two underfolders and two fixed stocked --- ALL OF THEM shot "chest size" groups at 100 yards with the iron sights --- for around $400 they are fine.

Personally --- I just LOVE my AMD-65 , it has the least amt. of recoil from any of the other AKs that I've shot.

goon
February 25, 2010, 05:31 PM
Personally, I like the romanian style side folding stock. They're cheap, easy to install, don't require permanent modification to the rifle, and give a decent cheek weld for a folder. Not as good as a traditional stock but for a guy who doesn't want to spend everything he has they're a decent compromise. When I get another AK it won't be long before it wears one.

LeontheProfessional
February 25, 2010, 05:37 PM
I have a Bulgarian AK. They can still be found here and there for around $600. They are by far the best bang for the buck, IMO. They are more accurate and have a better finish than the your average AK.

Gelgoog
February 25, 2010, 05:51 PM
There are plenty of cheap AKs on the market without having to resort to the "WASR". You can get decent AKs in the same price range as the WASR that do not look like they were put together by a monkey.

You can always go with TCI an their AK74 build. Has the wood furniture that you wanted and is built on a Bulgarian parts kit with a bulargaian chromed lines barrel and is priced in line with a WASR. You can pickup AK74 mags right now for a $10 a pop and 5.45x39 is dirt cheap.

http://www.tnguns.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1014

Or you can go with a Bulgarian AKSSR-85 for $549

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/bulgarianakssr-85cpartakagun-ssr-1.aspx

I have had 8 AK rifles, and the only one I would never consider buying again if given the chance would be the WASR. Sure the WASR will go bang, but that is about all you can count on it doing. It is a poor constructed rifle, using worn out or rejected surplus parts. Unlike alot of guns like Arsenals and Saigas....WASRs are not new and of the AKs that I have seen that have had functioning problems they have all been WASRs.

Simply put the WASR is the Hi-point of AKs, it will probably shoot most of the time but it really is not worth the money. WASRs used to be a good buy when they were in the $150-250 range, that is why so many people bought them. Now when they hover around $450-550 they are just a plain rip off. When you can pay $650 and get a top of the line Arsenal or converted Saiga...why the hell would you ever buy a WASR. Hell even the AKs in Somalia are probably better made then the WASR that did not even exist 15 years ago.

unit91
February 25, 2010, 06:58 PM
@BSW: What color Duracoat is that? Sorry, I know it's off topic.

nalioth
February 25, 2010, 07:35 PM
@BSW: What color Duracoat is that? Sorry, I know it's off topic. CLick on "briansmithwins" next to any of his posts, and then click "Send private message to briansmithwins"

That is one purpose for the private message feature.

Quentin
February 25, 2010, 07:54 PM
My WASR has served me well for over three years, never gives me any trouble and my buddies like it too. So I've never bothered to upgrade to another AK and probably never will. I can't see how a "quality" AK can function any better though it may look better.

A lot of people who knock the WASR are just repeating things they've heard and never spent much time with one first hand. And its human nature to knock something that's cheaper than what you bought. But I will say I bought mine at a gun show so was able to pick one out that looked ok, had straight sights and a decent looking magwell. Still, others I've handled seemed all right as well.

Too bad you're getting rid of your M4, every rifle lover should have at least one AR and AK in the collection!

Maverick223
February 25, 2010, 08:51 PM
You'll get far more for your money with a Saiga.

The WASRs are built from recycled and rejected military parts, and you just don't know what you're gonna end up with.

The Saiga is brand new production, using many 1st quality military parts (it is a "sporting rifle"). No "seconds" or "rejected for military use" parts in it. The Saiga is also cheaper.Well said, the Saiga is a much better all-around rifle, but needs a conversions for ergonomics IMO. If I were after an AK, that is the route I would take. If you want something ready to go out of the box (despite the inferior quality, it is good enough for most folks), the WASR is a decent deal.

:)

tiger rag
February 25, 2010, 10:28 PM
Bought a wasr3 in 5.56 about a year ago for under 300 bucks. straight sights refinished the furniture . It runs great . one of my favorites.

OrangePwrx9
February 25, 2010, 10:33 PM
If you're used to the ergonomics of a hunting rifle, then there's nothing wrong with a Saiga as it comes out of the box...that is if you want a reliable shooter. Some fault its heavy trigger, but it's a consistent trigger so you can get used to it with practice.

Shoot the heck out of it stock. When it begins to bore or annoy you...or you decide you need the approval of the kewl kidz, then convert it.

Mine are staying stock.

I'd like to know whether AtlanticFire's objection to "chopped up" Saigas relates to the gun itself or to the modifications.
Bob

tenfiftyfour
February 25, 2010, 10:52 PM
I'll put in another vote for the WASR. I've had mine for four years now, and have put several thousand rounds through with zero problems. It is without a doubt one of my favorite guns. For my purposes, I couldn't see how a more expensive AK would do the job any better.

zhyla
February 25, 2010, 11:29 PM
I'd also like a weapon that has the warranty

LOL. A warranty? I wouldn't buy a new AK, there's plenty of used ones around and they last forever.

I'd grab an old Norinco off of Gunbroker. MAK90 or one of its variants. Solidly built weapon. Most of them have thumbhole stocks that need to be replaced but otherwise I don't think you'll find a better AK outside of Russia. Note that the receiver is the thicker variety so it will take a bit of filing to make a new stock fit it.

I'm not a fan of these new AK's with their all-black synthetic furniture. AK's are supposed to have cheap wood poorly finished by communist labor.

sarduy
February 25, 2010, 11:49 PM
http://www.classicarms.us/

http://www.classicarms.us/images/ROMAKMV2MAG.jpg
IN ADDITION TO HAVING A BAYONET LUG AND COMPENSATOR EACH ROMANIAN 7.62X39 CALIBER AK MV RIFLE COMES COMPLETE WITH 2 - 30 RD MAGS,
( THIS WEEK WE ARE THROWING IN A STEEL MAG ), A SLING, CLEANING KIT, OIL BOTTLE, BAYONET WITH SHEATH, MAG POUCH, MANUAL, AND OIL BOTTLE.
THAT IS THE MOST BANG FOR THE BUCK OF ANY AK RIFLE WE CARRY AND I BELIEVE THE BEST RIFLE VALUE IN THE COUNTRY
ASK FOR THE ROM-AK MV....... ONLY...... $389.95


i hope you like it.

AcceptableUserName
February 26, 2010, 12:05 AM
a warranty, definitely wishful thinking. but at least some solid back up from the distributor.

Kman
February 26, 2010, 12:26 AM
yugo M70 is possibly the best value available,

Cosmoline
February 26, 2010, 12:31 AM
I had great luck with my old SAR-1. It only cost $250 but that was ten years ago. If you can find one used for a reasonable price grab it.

zhyla
February 26, 2010, 01:27 AM
That Romanian job looks like fun.

Girodin
February 26, 2010, 04:20 AM
If you're used to the ergonomics of a hunting rifle, then there's nothing wrong with a Saiga as it comes out of the box...that is if you want a reliable shooter. Some fault its heavy trigger, but it's a consistent trigger so you can get used to it with practice.

The following is "broken" with the stock saiga:

Ergos: ergonomics is much much more than just the shape of the stock. How that stock interfaces with the rest of the controls is important. A "sporter" stock gives poor ergos for reloads and other weapon manipulations as well as reaching the safety

Balance: stock saigas are horrible out of balance

Trigger: The stock trigger is just horrible. It doesn't take shooting too many rifles to realize the saiga wishbone trigger linkage does not allow for a very good trigger. the problems go fare beyond it being heavy. In fact I'm not sure that is even really one of my complaints about it. I still have a stock saiga rifle and when I shoot it along side my conversions the difference never fails to make an impression on me.

One can not run 10+ round magazines:The major element to this problem is 922r. If that is otherwise resolved you are either stuck paying for propriatary mags (which cost much more than surplus mags) or you need to "fix" the gun by installing a bullet guide and filing the mag catch.

you decide you need the approval of the kewl kidz, then convert it.


If the rifle meets your needs stock then leave it stock but for most converting their rifle has nothing to do with getting anyone's approval (or even being bored) it has everything to do with getting a more functional rifle that better suits their needs.

Izzy77
February 26, 2010, 06:36 AM
If you can inspect the wasr, and it has a triangle on the front trunion,and it has a triangle ( earlier ones had a triangle and an arrow) and the barrel has numbers ( usually a couple of 2's in a line) stamped on it, the major parts ( bolt , carrier trunion match...then it''s ex-military and not reject parts.

MOST Wasr's right now are either ex-military or Ex-contract guns. They used to make new parts, and century is known for buying really low to sell high ( eg the cheapest)... but the word on the street from huggy bear is that they are just using up AK's that cant be imported as parts kits w/ the barrel...and factory production of new parts has switched to other arms.

Much of what Romanian rifle experts believe comes from a single poster called DSTROM1911 who posted/ moderated on AK files.

XxWINxX94
February 26, 2010, 08:34 AM
The Romanian WASR-10 is a great rifle. It's not perfect, but it is an AK. I own one and its a very cheap alternative to other more expensive ones. Great shooters!

HGUNHNTR
February 26, 2010, 08:38 AM
Why 'fix' what ain't broken?


To prevent future headaches. Have you ever changed your oil?

Zerodefect
February 26, 2010, 08:50 AM
What about these AK's form Atlantic arms??? Any good?
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/default.aspx

unit91
February 26, 2010, 10:52 AM
What about these AK's form Atlantic arms??? Any good?
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/default.aspx
It depends on which one you're talking about. The Dragunov style and the rifle combo are both WASRs (you can tell because there's no dimple on the receiver, just above the magazine). I think they're asking too much for a WASR right now. The pistol is a Romanian but not a WASR, but I'm not sure if you're looking for a pistol. The AK 74 "Rifle Classic" is a Bulgarian and probably the best of the four, but then you're switching from 7.62x39 mm to 5.45x39 mm. That's a personal choice, and LOTS of people love the 5.45, but 7.62 is cheaper / more plentiful. Bottom line, the Bulgarian isn't a bad price if you want 5.45; if you want 7.62, I'd look somewhere else.

Maverick223
February 26, 2010, 10:55 AM
...LOTS of people love the 5.45, but 7.62 is cheaper...No it's not; the 5.45 is significantly cheaper, but not made domestically and difficult to find locally. It is also mostly corrosive IIRC. I would stay away from it until it (or at least brass) is made in the US.

:)

unit91
February 26, 2010, 11:04 AM
No it's not; the 5.45 is significantly cheaper, but not made domestically and difficult to find locally. It is also mostly corrosive IIRC. I would stay away from it until it (or at least brass) is made in the US.

:)
Good point about the corrosive ammo. To be honest, I don't have a great deal of knowledge about 5.45 price trends, because all mine are in 7.62. My comment about price was based on a visit to MidwayUSA, but I didn't notice at the time of posting that the similarly-priced box of 5.45 has 25 rounds, not 20. Good catch.

Quentin
February 26, 2010, 12:46 PM
Wow, that WASR setup you're selling for $400 looks pretty hard to beat, sarduy!

OP, definitely give that one some thought...

Edit:
I also would not stray from 7.62x39 unless you're sure you want 5.45.

Maverick223
February 26, 2010, 01:05 PM
Wow, that WASR setup you're selling for $400 looks pretty hard to beat, sarduy!Additionally it is from a reputable retailer. I have seen him at local gun shows and have friends that have bought his kits and had good service.

:)

axeman_g
February 26, 2010, 01:30 PM
You are getting alot of info here... and alot of noise. You want a WASR, you are just having a hard time settling for something "everyone" has told is a POS. If you want to feel more secure then do the following...

I would personally suggest the WASR package from classicarms

or

I recently purchased a used Henderson Defense Rom G Ak47. I did alot of looking around and really like was these guys are doing. They offer a "certified" WASR package for $420. They go over the gun thoroughly, checking for Century Value Added Features like canted sites, or bad bolts.
http://shop.hendersondefense.biz/product.sc?productId=78&categoryId=4
My good shooting buddy just got one of these in the fall and he really likes it. It is a fun little shooter. It is nicer then WASR10 I have seen at gun shows. They also have a great selection of higher quality built guns.

Just a suggestion, if you want a good autloader for a good price go with a WASR from one of these two places. If you want something a little nicer... I would still buy from these two places.

Hizzie
February 26, 2010, 03:57 PM
I've owned 4 WASRs --- two underfolders and two fixed stocked --- ALL OF THEM shot "chest size" groups at 100 yards with the iron sights --- for around $400 they are fine.

Personally --- I just LOVE my AMD-65 , it has the least amt. of recoil from any of the other AKs that I've shot.
The AMD-65 rocks. True that is has the least amount of recoil compared to any other AK variant. It is also the loudest. I pretty much shut down the range for a couple of minutes everytime I break out the AMD. Everybody just stops and stares.

AcceptableUserName
February 26, 2010, 04:21 PM
ok, heres my plan of action. going to try and get a local retailer to match classic arms 389 per WASR. i offered a local retailer 800 plus bg fees and tax for two WASR's. we'll see what they say.

if not, there is a LIGHTLY used VZ 58 for sale and a Vector underfolder. both are around 6. good, price, good rifles?


if these local options dont pan out, im biting the bullet on FFL transfer and doing the classic arms deal. they seem like good people.


im an AK noob, but i dont think paying over 425 at the MOST for a new stock WASR is a good idea. agree?

Gunfighter123
February 26, 2010, 04:41 PM
if not, there is a LIGHTLY used VZ 58
There has been reported problems with VZs made up in the US --- the best info is here;
http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?board=67.0



EDIT --- Agree that at this point in time , $425 or so is the most for a basic WASR.

Mossberg88
February 26, 2010, 04:49 PM
WASR. 10 bucks at your local hardware store to redo the wood and give it a personal touch. as for mine, the only time it has never fired when it was supposed to was due to a bad primer on an Egyptian 7.62.

my762buzz
February 26, 2010, 10:39 PM
I'm also open to the Saiga conversion idea, as long as YOU think it'll be reliable and PERMANENT modifications.



For less than the average price of a WASR (Pinto) you can get a Saiga (Cadillac). Pintos are for those that don't mind relative lack of overall quality
for about the same price.

AcceptableUserName
February 26, 2010, 10:42 PM
how much would I spend converting the Saiga to accept standard AK mags? and a stock with pistol grip, either fixed or folding...

my762buzz
February 26, 2010, 10:49 PM
Saiga 7.62x39 $299
Stock $25-$45 depends on which you want
Pistol grip $10-$25 depends on which you want
Trigger parts $25
Retainer plate $5
Recycled factory trigger guard Free
Drill bit + tap $5
______________________________
Total Sub $400 easily if need be

nalioth
February 26, 2010, 10:54 PM
how much would I spend converting the Saiga to accept standard AK mags? and a stock with pistol grip, either fixed or folding... To repeat the umpteen-dozen threads already out there answering this question . .

You'll spend as little or as much as you like.

I've done several conversions for less than $100 in conversion parts (including the bullet guide). You'll see some folks spend twice what the base gun cost them on the conversion.

hogshead
February 26, 2010, 10:58 PM
I want one of them Craftsmen Lifetime Warranty AKs like atlanticfire was talking about.

AcceptableUserName
February 26, 2010, 11:07 PM
what about a norinco mak 90? better than WASRs or the same? and can i change out that stock?

hogshead
February 26, 2010, 11:14 PM
Yea, but no lifetime warranty.

AcceptableUserName
February 26, 2010, 11:15 PM
i did hear REALLY good things about the vz 58. are people just having a lot of problems with them now? i could get one for about 575 used but in good shape with 2 mags, sling, box etc


nevermind different gun. shows how much i know, i thought it was an ak variant

Maverick223
February 26, 2010, 11:19 PM
Limited experience, but I was really impressed with the VZ-58, though I would stick to a Czechpoint or a CZ-USA version (Century has had a few turds IME).

:)

hogshead
February 26, 2010, 11:21 PM
Hard to beat a Norinco.

nalioth
February 26, 2010, 11:44 PM
i did hear REALLY good things about the vz 58. are people just having a lot of problems with them now?The "good things' you heard were referring to the Czech-made Vz58s. They are superior to the AK.


Avoid the Century jobs at all costs.

Seattle206
February 27, 2010, 02:28 AM
Yeah I think Norinco is over looked here. They are some of the best AK's we have. Fit/finish is much better than any wasr. its 100% true commie made like a real ak and not some wasr, or a hacked up saiga.

1.5mm thick receiver, chrome barrel. the whole rifle is based off an AK, except for the stamped receiver. Notice the fat ak barrel unlike the pencil barrels on the akm, wider fsb, 45 degree gas block.

I'd take a mak90 over anything century makes or a saiga that hasnt received a $400 make over.

Utah_Jay
February 27, 2010, 03:27 AM
My first choice would be Saiga since that is what I own. Just finished converting it. I paid $350 for the rifle and $110 in conversion parts including the bullet guide and extra magazine. They are very solid rifles.

2nd choice would be the Norinco Mak90. I am hoping to add one to my collection soon. They are nice rifles if you can get comfortable with the thumbhole stock.

my762buzz
February 27, 2010, 04:48 AM
Yeah I think Norinco is over looked here. They are some of the best AK's we have. Fit/finish is much better than any wasr. its 100% true commie made like a real ak and not some wasr, or a hacked up saiga.

1.5mm thick receiver, chrome barrel. the whole rifle is based off an AK, except for the stamped receiver. Notice the fat ak barrel unlike the pencil barrels on the akm, wider fsb, 45 degree gas block.

I'd take a mak90 over anything century makes or a saiga that hasnt received a $400 make over.

My formerly owned MAK 90 which I bought new in the box could not shoot as accurately as either my vepr or any of my saigas and it did not have a nice chrome lined gas block as the others did. They work well enough but sometimes they have odd flaws like a bullet guide that is not high enough on the front lip to allow proper feeding of hollow points or improperly heat treated bolts that crack and stop functioning. Not kidding.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178380

I have yet to see one reported manufacturing flaw like such with any Russian
AK. Its much rarer, and I would have to fairly account for the fact that only Saigas and Veprs were imported as complete
Russian AK products and only these two brands would serve as a basis of manufacturing quality comparison.
To be relative, the Russian sks rifles formerly imported are considered as the best sks among the sks owners community in America.
This is considering that Chinese, Romanian, Yugoslavian, and Albanian were also imported and closely compared.

Overall Chinese made AK weapons are good but not in the same league. And Romanian are the most problematic. I seen too many SAR's
and WASR's with canted sights, canted gas blocks, improper rivot hole positioning, or noticably uncentered axis (yep off center) and that's not even
Century Arms doing that is right from Romania. Century only has their hand in cutting the magwell crooked so the mags might not insert properly and they mess this up too often.

On a saiga there isn't anything to cut. The magwell comes from the factory in a double stack width and only a few holes are needed to be drilled.
No hacking required. I sold my only MAK 90 to buy another Saiga and
I have no regrets.

AcceptableUserName
February 27, 2010, 08:10 AM
can i change the stock quickly and easily on a mak90 like i can on a WASR or is that illegal due to compliance stuff?

my762buzz
February 27, 2010, 08:47 AM
Yes, it does require paying attention to compliance parts when
you change the stock to pistol grip. The MAK90s that are slanted in the rear
pretty much need an iron wood designs wood stock stock and are not compatible with most common AK stocks without some amount of modification.

atlanticfire
February 27, 2010, 09:40 AM
Saiga (Cadillac)
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sHa_rofl.gif

my762buzz
February 27, 2010, 10:26 AM
Ok let clearify. 2010 AK imports 101

Rolls Arsenal (Saiga) SGL / Arsenal Bulgarian

Cadillac Saiga

Pinto WASR10

AcceptableUserName
February 27, 2010, 10:37 AM
im looking at a mak 90 locally i think. gonna offer 425 for it. guys asking 5 but that wont happen. just like im reluctant to pay 450 for a WASR. theyre just not supposed to cost that much.


gun sales are very slow at least where i am so if worse comes to worst i am just going to wait. ill do my part to let the price gougers eat what they have until they really want to sell the stuff. the gun stores have been deader than dead lately. their sales arent good at all. 575 for polymer century arms ak last night and 479 BEFORE tax with NO bayonet for a WASR, i literally laughed out loud when he said the price. i dont want to go through the hassle of converting a saiga on my first ak. im open to it the next go around, but for my first i want something that works adequately right now. match grade accuracy and showroom quality dont matter to me. my impression is that all an AK is in ANY of its forms is a reliable bullet hose anyway. im ok with imperfection like on a WASR as long as A - it is going to blow up or stop shooting on me and b - i dont have to overpay for it.

my budget is around 650 tops and for that Id want a polish AK or warsaw pact good stuff type thing.


if i had the money obviously id buy an Arsenal. but even then id feel bad. An Ak by its nature just isnt supposed to be a thousand bucks. i dont see how the value is there all things considered. its just like sks's. cool gun and all, but no way would i pay 400 for one (ive seen them for that). try again on that one. i probably should have bought an AK 5 or 6 yrs ago but it is what it is. ill find one. i dont think im being that unreasonable. classic and atlantic are still considerations. the saiga is probably a great gun, but i wouldnt recommend anyone especially myself start out with a firearm type on a gun they need to heavily modify to reach their desired specifications. i need to familiarize myself with a good working model first to learn the ropes, so to speak.

my762buzz
February 27, 2010, 10:52 AM
Good luck

my762buzz
February 27, 2010, 11:38 AM
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sHa_rofl.gif

The funnier side to your humor is Atlantic Firearms selling a non-converted Saiga at cadillac prices. Just who in their right mind is going to pay $739 for a non-converted saiga when they can pick up a SGL 20 or 21 fully converted for less than that. Now thats hysterical.



http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct763.aspx

atlanticfire
February 27, 2010, 12:52 PM
The funnier side to your humor is Atlantic Firearms selling a non-converted Saiga at cadillac prices. Just who in their right mind is going to pay $739 for a non-converted saiga when they can pick up a SGL 20 or 21 fully converted for less than that. Now thats hysterical.



Who said anything about me being affiliated with Atlantic? I do not have any part in there business practice nor am I employed there. I was not referencing pricing. I was merely smirking at the fact that your associated Saiga with Cadillac.

AcceptableUserName
February 27, 2010, 01:07 PM
found a polish warsaw pact AK for 600...yay or nay

Maverick223
February 27, 2010, 01:08 PM
Nay, I personally wouldn't spend that much for an AK. I would go with either a Saiga, or out of the box, a WASR.

:)

AcceptableUserName
February 27, 2010, 02:16 PM
LOL! nevermind. i called to make sure, and sure enough, the fellow was mistaken. it was a polish TANTAL in 5.45 for 600+bg check and tax, ha ha ha. not a polish 1960 milled. glad i made the call to make sure before i drove 50 miles! ill let that one gather dust like the rest so far. id like to have a tantal as much as the next guy but not before a 7.62 and not for that price. they were also offering a 1975 for the measley sum of 700. i laughed uproariously.


and the hunt goes on!

gkdir
February 27, 2010, 05:24 PM
Own 3 of them. A MAK90 Norinco, a AK47 PolyTech, and a Mak90 PolyTech, all milled, all wood. None of them have any "Rambo" crap hanging off them, and all 3 of them will put a 30rd. clip in a man sized target all day at a 100yds. That being said I also have a few original Saigas (except for clip mods.) .223, 7.62 x39, and 12ga. They also have been very reliable. Personally I wouldn't own a WASR or Yugo, or Romanian. Just my $0.02.

AcceptableUserName
February 27, 2010, 05:29 PM
im sitting on my money for awhile. im definitely wanting a mak 90 used right now.

Crash_Test_Dhimmi
February 27, 2010, 06:36 PM
try a Micro Galil!
5.56 SBR
milled receiver, not some stamped folded flat.
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs202.snc1/6935_150717576363_630466363_3164261_2440672_n.jpg

http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs202.snc1/6935_150717561363_630466363_3164260_2594612_n.jpg

AcceptableUserName
February 27, 2010, 06:44 PM
sticking to the AK platform or very very close variant. ive went the 5.56 route and it wasnt for me.

atlanticfire
February 27, 2010, 07:16 PM
Like others have said I think the WASRs are good. Kinda like an old pickup truck. Sure they have imperfections and might not be as pretty as others, but you know they always work.

zhyla
February 27, 2010, 07:35 PM
I wouldn't mind having a Galil one of these days, that thing is pretty sweet.

I don't get why there's so much talk about stamped/milled receivers. Stamped is lighter and they both last forever.

THE DARK KNIGHT
February 27, 2010, 07:41 PM
I would say the Saiga Cadillac / WASR Pinto comparison is a little off. The WASR is $389.99 and the Saiga is $299 plus about $120 to convert. So that's only $30 and 2 hours for brand new Russian made parts vs. old military reject parts....

Maverick223
February 27, 2010, 08:03 PM
The auto analogies are getting tiresome...all AKs are somewhere between a Yugo and a Peugeot. :neener:

hoodfu
February 27, 2010, 08:59 PM
I haven't seen Lancaster mentioned in this thread. I just put in an order for one, blonde wood with milled receiver and chromed barrel. Anyone have bad experiences with Lancasters or just that others are better/easier to get...?

Maverick223
February 27, 2010, 09:13 PM
Anyone have bad experiences with Lancasters or just that others are better/easier to get...?Should do just as good as a WASR...well almost, it is a bit heavier. :neener: It'll do just fine, just a little high for an AK IMO.

OrangePwrx9
February 28, 2010, 05:10 PM
Who said anything about me being affiliated with Atlantic? I do not have any part in there business practice nor am I employed there. I was not referencing pricing. I was merely smirking at the fact that your associated Saiga with Cadillac.
Ohhhh, Okaayyy. I made that mistake too. Guess there's no reason to take your opinions any more seriously than any others here.

I do agree that Saigas aren't Cadillacs.
Saiga = '80s F150
not that there's anything wrong with that.

my762buzz
February 28, 2010, 06:29 PM
Saiga is a modern AK103 base at its inner core. Nice new premium chrome lined 90 degree gas block. Nice new hammer forged chrome lined barrel with superior machining done on modern high tech machinery at Izmash. The steel quality is second to none. Generally well aligned and rivots are spaced correctly. Internal parts are machined very well and made to spec.


Wasr is an old AKM base at its inner core. Old worn outdated non-chrome lined 45 degree gas block. Old out of spec arsenal reject possibly worn out to the point about to start key holing bullets barrel made with gypsy quality control standards. Steel quality good luck. Alignment is certified by the primate special olympics. Internal parts are worn arsenal rejects.


I get a chuckle at how people worry about whether a Remington 870 express
is far less superior to an 870 police and whether they could trust their life to
a lesser 870 quality. As though the police version is the cadillac and the express version is relatively more like a pinto. Well, the comparison of manufacturing quality disparity between a Russian Izmash (Saiga) and a Romanian Wasr is 10 times greater than that of the express versus a police 870. I think people are looking at the exterior and have no idea what in spec literally means or the 30 plus years of design upgrades incorporated into a structurally reinforced AK103 type base gun. Final point: The Russians make a much higher quality product than a romanian WASR. The WASR seems to be the worst possible AK sporter on the planet with the highest rate of manufacturing defects besides the fact that its made of romanian arsenal rejected parts that they will not even trust on their real military select fire rifles. In RELATIVE COMPARISON, Izmash parts are of cadillac quality if you consider the Wasr parts as even entre level in the US market. Its not even as close as 870 express versus police models, but more like 870 police/wingmaster versus a pakistani 870 clone hammered out of 30 year old construction rebar. They might look fairly close in appearance from a distance but once you closely examine them you start to see the differences.

therickster
February 28, 2010, 06:46 PM
I like my WASR. Well worth the $380 I spent on it. With that said, my dad has one also that is not really on the same level. The parts seem a little scratched and the fit is a little off. Definitely still workable though.

We also just refinished both stocks. A little Tung oil and those things are as good as new. :)

goldie
February 28, 2010, 08:46 PM
My nephew put 5 shots into about a 1 1/2" circle at 25 yards with my wasr,he rarley shoots guns,its pretty accurate for what it is,& never jammed since ive had it. its really not bad for around 450 or so, & theres lots of surplus parts & wood that can be refinished nicely & added as well.romanian mags are plentiful,too.theres not much out there for the price,its still a pretty good bargain..

Gelgoog
February 28, 2010, 08:54 PM
well said my762buzz +1.

AcceptableUserName
February 28, 2010, 09:27 PM
the wasrs seem fine for occasional use. i would pick one up for the right price. unfortunately, the right price isnt what seems to the going rate. id want to pay 3-350. i want a mak 90 or tantal next, and after that ill look to convert my own Saiga. and if i did get a WASR id be through classic or atlantic.

Maverick223
February 28, 2010, 10:59 PM
My nephew put 5 shots into about a 1 1/2" circle at 25 yards with my wasr,he rarley shoots guns,its pretty accurate...Huh?...what do you consider inaccurate...10MOA? I don't care what it is 6MOA is pretty darn bad.

:)

LeontheProfessional
February 28, 2010, 11:02 PM
^He said it was his nephew who does not shoot much. If he is satisfied with it that is all that matters.

surplusfan
March 2, 2010, 01:50 PM
What is the basis for the oft-repeated claim that WASR's contain "military/arsenal reject" parts? It may be true but I've never seen any corroboration for the claim.

And I particularly doubt it's true of the WASR10/63s now sold.

nalioth
March 2, 2010, 03:28 PM
What is the basis for the oft-repeated claim that WASR's contain "military/arsenal reject" parts? It may be true but I've never seen any corroboration for the claim.

And I particularly doubt it's true of the WASR10/63s now sold. The factory itself has said that parts that were rejected for military guns were used in the WASRs. Parts that are plain dangerous are not used, just the ones not acceptable to the military inspectors.

The Romanians have pulled a page from our books, and taken to making today's WASRs from recycled Romanian military AKMs. Do you want to risk getting a "new gun" that was the basic infantry schools "test-to-destruction" rifle? Or has otherwise been used hard and put up wet?

WASRs are made of rejected/recycled/used parts.

Grantman
March 15, 2010, 04:46 AM
If you are going to get an AK get the genuine Russian Kalashnikov which is the Saiga. Manufactured at what is the source of true Kalashnikovs, Izhmash where Kalashnikov himself worked. You really can't get closer to a real AK than the real AK... Sure it has been mildly dressed up to comply with import issues but even if I didn't have time or couldn't afford to revert it back to standard I'd still rather have a sparkly new, real Russian quality Kalashnikov, than a mongrel AK even if the mongrel rattles along fine. I'd keep ahold of the Saiga till my circumstances allowed me the few moments to revert it back to standard.

my762buzz said it all.

Here is the first page of a long thread showing real Russian AKs, Saigas reverted to standard: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=13290

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