Junk? Kind of a rant/discusion of todays imports.


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DasFriek
February 26, 2010, 02:59 AM
Ive had a thread or 2 here lately and slowly learning about the rifles the current market has to offer. From what ive seen if you don't want an AR you better be darn smart and know what your looking at and buying.

Ill be speaking in general here, So don't jump to conclusions unless i specifically call something a turd.
AR's seem reasonably standard of decent too high quality and price isn't always a determining factor. I mean you can buy a good one for a relatively low price.

But step outside the USA made AR's and man its a crap shoot with loaded dice unless your willing to pay way more than AR prices.
Ak reviews ive been reading seem to be put together in Pakistan and built from old Ford body panels that barely match and as accurate as a slingshot.

People passing off PSL's as Draganovs is one i find just wrong. And AK's are even a mix mash of parts left over from 3rd world countries shipped here and put on a new cheaply stamped receiver and hopefully fits together from all 7 guns the parts came from.

Cetme- Boy would i love one, Too scared to buy one tho.

Now ive been told in my other threads about how most AK's accuracy is hit or miss at 100 yards and mostly miss and i can believe it from what ive been reading and seeing.
20 years ago i bought my first AK and i know i was at the 100 yard range hitting decent shots from a standing position with iron sights. I know my eyes were better then, But id bet $100 so was the gun.

Saiga- Now they do seem to be the ONLY bright spot in this mess of duct taped guns that surround them on the shelf. Of course ive read the bad, But at least its a gun thats new and is all original. A+ Ruskies!

Im in the Battle rifle market, Yes. But i swear i need a darn expert with me if i look at anything thats not an AR or an upper class gun like an FAL,PT91 you get the pic.

I know it would be hard, But it would be great to see USA makers start lines of their own designs of M&P weapons for the civi's that may give us a better low cost option.
Mabey im way off here, But when the Cold war ended so did the quality of the AK as a whole, And the AR took off like a rocket. Its amazing what you can do and build with an AR these days, even on a budget.

BTW for anyone who followed my other threads i did visit a few shops yesterday. I held a MN 91/30 and a PSL both.
Gander Mtn wanted $900 for the PSL wich is....well expected from them, It did have the scope and mount on it to be fair tho. But as i was holding the gun talking to the salesman i noticed just how bad my arms was hurting after only holding it 2 minutes.
The MN was lighter than i thought it would be just like you guys stated, But one look at that metal butt pad against the wood made me cringe.

Did i take too much pain meds tonight?

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SHvar
February 26, 2010, 03:14 AM
You know, years ago my nephew bought a Russian made AK47 still in the crate, soaked in cosmoline, the seller cleaned most of it off for him that day. That gun was definitely better quality than most AKs Ive ever seen, it cost him $150.
About a year before he bought a very new looking SKS (Russian made) for $65 if I remember right.
Good luck in your decision of what you buy, and enjoy it, post up some pictures also.

DasFriek
February 26, 2010, 03:19 AM
Yup, I to remember cleaning that god awful stuff off mine. It was used alot more back then they use now, Quantity wise.
I think I paid alot more close too $350 due to being in a small town and being over priced. I also bought an SKS around the same time for like $125.
OH the good Ole days :)

Im sure ill keep everyone posted on what i end up with, But until then ill shoot a few bajillion rounds of .22lr and save up for the exact rifle i want and not settle on just anything.

Balog
February 26, 2010, 03:50 AM
Sounds like you're paying too much attention to what people on the internet think. Just cause someone is posting it online doesn't make their opinion anymore worthwhile than if they were BSing at a gun counter.

elmerfudd
February 26, 2010, 04:44 AM
Seems to me there's lots of good imports out there. CZ, Saiga, Sako, Tikka, Sig-sauer, IMI, FN, HK etc... What you won't find are a lot of good foreign military style semi-autos. That's because they were largely banned back in 1990 and to get them into the country requires that they be neutered. They are then often reassembled by monkeys as monkeys are naturally good with hammers, saws, torches and other gunsmithing tools.

Izzy77
February 26, 2010, 07:41 AM
Exactly thank your government, dont blame the poor paki's.;)

Shear_stress
February 26, 2010, 09:05 AM
There is no mystery to the current situation. In 1989, it became illegal to import semi-automatic rifles in a "non-sporting" configuration for non-LEO sale. This gave birth to the numerous "thumbhole" stocked rifles sans bayonet lugs and other deadly features. Importation of all Chinese guns except shotguns was banned in 1994. Importation of centerfire rifles capable of accepting a "high capacity magazine" was banned in 1998. Importation of parts kits with intact barrels was banned in 2005. There you have it. Lots of stupid laws over three presidential administrations and numerous sessions of congress.

The AK-style rifle is more popular than ever, despite the idiotic laws. There are many, many available from many, many sources. Lots of guns means lots of variability, especially in terms of quality.

AK-style rifles available now need to be brought into the country in an importable configuration and than modified (sometimes completely remanufactured) stateside. Others, as the OP mentions, are built up domestically from parts kits of variable condition. Bear in mind that the AK was and is essentially the only thing some countries made well, as these rifles were considered essential to national security. The majority of these rifles--as originally issued--were of decent quality.

Gone are the days when you could simply stroll into the local Woolworth's and buy that Norinco double underfolder sitting on the shelf. You have to take the bad with the good and use message boards such as this one to educate yourself as a consumer. Focussing on the quality of "imported" rifles is a total waste of bandwidth as most quality issues with current AK-style rifles are squarely the result of sloppy U.S."manufacturing" (and I use that term losely).

kanook
February 26, 2010, 09:33 AM
So I guess the current manufactured M1 carbine isn't a battle rifle?

You can get one for inbetween the price of a AK and AR

Zerodefect
February 26, 2010, 09:45 AM
Atlantic Arms imports the recievers, then builds the gun in the US with enough US parts to count......I think?

Anyone have any experience/opinions with the Atlantic arms Ak47's???

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct444.aspx
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/default.aspx

Birddog1911
February 26, 2010, 09:51 AM
The GP1975 Ak design from Century is actually a good AK, particularly for the price. Dan Coonan Industries receiver (one of the finest), comes with Tapco trigger and furniture, and if I recall, it is also an American barrel. J&G sales has them for around $440, I think.

As far as the PSL being too heavy, well...work out more! It's lighter than a scoped FAL or M14!

Balog
February 26, 2010, 10:25 AM
Were I in the market for an AK at the moment, I'd go for either an Arsenal or home converted Saiga.

Sam1911
February 26, 2010, 10:55 AM
So I guess the current manufactured M1 carbine isn't a battle rifle?

No. Not by any either of the two (hotly debated) definitions. At the very least it needs to fire a full-power round. It could be also confidently held that if "carbine" appears in the name, it shouldn't be considered a battle rifle, either, as anther primary characteristic is the full-sized stature of the gun.

There are designs that blur the lines, but an M1 Carbine is "right out."

-Sam

Hatterasguy
February 26, 2010, 10:58 AM
Well thats why I tend to say away from surplus ex Soviet crap, because its usualy junk.

http://www.arsenalinc.com/about.htm

If I was going to buy an AK, I'd get one of these. They seem to be made pretty well.

The battle rifle market is pretty small so their shouldn't be a problem. If you want a Fal buy a DSA, if you want a G3 either get an HK or PTR. Thats really about it. I guess you could get an FN49 they are nice and you can find them in good shape.

DasFriek
February 26, 2010, 12:55 PM
I didnt mean to come off like i was so negative, Just frustrated at how hard it can be to find a good low cost battle rifle. That includes others outside the AK realm.

The Government, I 100% agree thats where it went bad. I believe when i bought mine 20 years ago the ban had just been enacted but many were still sitting in crates but prices were jumping threw the roof.

From what the market has to offer im only gonna be happy with a $1000 rifle and one i know is of good quality. But it sure would be nice to find an AK on the shelf look at the price tag and say "This should do well" without doing many hours of research and forums discussions.

Quentin
February 26, 2010, 02:03 PM
I'd say there are lots of off the shelf AKs and other milsurp that will do the job well. Of course it's best to do lots of research on any model but if you know how to inspect a firearm for problems or deal with reputable folks online, odds are you can find good examples of what you're looking for. It's not a piece of cake but then it's not grim either...

Also you can get into a lot of trouble buying an AR, too! :)

zhyla
February 26, 2010, 02:50 PM
I rarely see complaints of an AK not working. What's the problem? It may appear to be pieced together by monkeys, but it was also designed to be pieced together by monkeys and still function.

DasFriek
February 26, 2010, 05:02 PM
I rarely see complaints of an AK not working. What's the problem? It may appear to be pieced together by monkeys, but it was also designed to be pieced together by monkeys and still function.
But its gotten worse, Alot worse over time due to the Gov. regulations.
Im not saying they aren't gonna work, Im saying they seem to be lesser quality, Mis fitting and very inaccurate.
I hate to live in the old days of 20 years ago, But at that time there wasn't much difference in accuracy between a an average AK and AR, Now its night and day difference.

I do have a good local store that will take the time to go over a gun and get you the right one you need and call a badly made rifle a badly made rifle. Just depends on which salesman i get but i know who to go to.
Seems a few online dealers have noticed this also and try and be as straight forward about make,quality and fit of what they are selling.

I dont know if ill buy an AK, But if i do i think with the help here i could get a decent made one rather easily. But at this point if money allows it would be an AR,FAL,PT91 or similar. Seeing my funds i may have to build my own, But thats a plus in my book.
There is nothing like building and working on your own guns. Ive never built one, But regularly work on my 1911 and will continue to do so until a smith is needed for milling or something i cant do.

Tirod
February 26, 2010, 05:04 PM
I've seen lots of complaints about AK's, here and elsewhere. Mostly from buyers who paid little and got their money's worth, just like AR buyers. In particular, I started a thread asking which ones to avoid, and Century seemed to top the list of junk. There were consistent complaints about poor assembly quality and problems getting the first rounds to shoot. Apparently monkeys can put together a durable firearm, but that doesn't make them a reliable firearm. Two different things.

You get what you pay for. Cheap guns from foreign countries based on 50 year old designs certainly don't constitute a battle rifle to me. I could do as well with a lever action, which has many superior qualities - if you really look at it feature for feature.

Frankly, the import foreign rifle market hasn't changed at all. The low priced items are third world relics and curios, the expensive stuff first line western nation issue. It's been like that for decades, nothing has changed at all. FN, CETME, HK, and others command a higher price because they have better reliability - that concept again. You can depend on them. You can't depend on a third world gun up front, too many bad ones out there.

It is a matter of perception - exactly why Toyota is getting beat on. They have had less issues than Audi - who left the US completely for years until the market got old enough to forget (or die off.) For third world vendors, their only reliable quality is an overinflated reputation and cheap price.

DasFriek
February 26, 2010, 05:39 PM
The only thing id dissagree on what you said is about CETME rifles, Ive read many bad reviews of these due to the same monkeys who do the AK's are working on these too with mismatched parts due to import regs also just like the AK.
Mabey i was reading older reviews and things have changed pls correct me.
I do know the PTR91 is a Top grade weapon and basically the same as a Cetme but a night and day differance.
The FN FNAR are amazing looking rifles id be proud to own also.

geojap
February 27, 2010, 02:15 PM
DasFriek, there really isn't a low-cost, good battle rifle made today. I went through the same process as you about 10 years ago. I had just finished college and wanted to buy a few rifles over time. I had to go through a few turds to find the good ones. But the good ones normally cost good money.

I bought a few good ones and a few bad ones. The bad ones were a Century FAL and Century CETME. Neither one would cycle properly. Both cost me $400 about 7 years ago.

Some good ones that I bought were CMP M1 Garand ($400), Springfield M1A Loaded ($1600), various Arsenal, Global Trades AKMs and custom-built Saigas ($400-$1000), Imbel and DSA FALs ($900-1000). These prices are used and new over the past 10 years and may be different than today's market prices. Other good rifles are the PTR-91 and FNAR.

Good luck. If you want something of decent quality, you will probably need to be ready to pony up for it.

stubbicatt
February 27, 2010, 02:52 PM
The quality of firearms in general, especially us made ones, has definitely declined. I haven't purchased a US made firearm in the last 10 years which hasn't had to go back to the factory to remedy some QC issue. The only firearms I have purchased in the last 10 years which did not require a trip back were CZ rifles, pistols, HK pistols, and Glock pistols. I had some Russian firearms which worked right out of the box, including a TOZ35, and IZH pistol, and some others.

My Smith and Wesson had to go back, my Colts had to go back, my Ruger LCP had to go back, all of these had to be returned. Clones of HK rifles all had to go back.

I am unimpressed by domestic firearms manufacturers anymore.

It's so bad now that I am tempted to take the firearm from the dealer to the UPS store, and ship it back before even trying to shoot it, so confident am I that there will be a problem.

Sigh.

Used to be USA was a competitive source for manufactured products. Guess not anymore. Heck look at Harley Davidson products... zero competitive edge there. Sigh.

Izzy77
February 28, 2010, 07:53 AM
The GP1975 Ak design from Century is actually a good AK, particularly for the price. Dan Coonan Industries receiver (one of the finest), comes with Tapco trigger and furniture, and if I recall, it is also an American barrel. J&G sales has them for around $440, I think.


Back about 4 mo. ago, I saw a GP-75 with one of those wonderful barrels that was just CUT, ZERO crown....just slapping em out to meet demand...

I would take a HAND PICKED WASR over a GP-75 any day of the week...used parts for sure, but most are in good shape and will do what any WARSAW pact rifle will.

DC receivers are as good or better than most east block...that is one good American product....and I mean the NDS-1 not the NDS 3 that had TAPCO g2 fit issues. Stay away from any other US made receiver.

A big problem with about 1/2 of the new AK's out there is that they are not FACTORY arsenaled....just slapped together by century or whomever they subed to do it. Look for something made in Europe, and TOUCHED up as little as possible...that means NO WELDED bayonet lug that can flake your chrome off with heat...at maximum just let century open up the mag well....INspect, inspect, inspect!

Or on can shell out 1500 for the superior product by the Arsenal Of Bulgaria's US factory in NV where they imported the know how and 90% of the parts. :)

Another problem is old or poorly made new parts. One has to do RESEARCH before buying these days.

Birddog1911
February 28, 2010, 08:01 AM
Back about 4 mo. ago, I saw a GP-75 with one of those wonderful barrels that was just CUT, ZERO crown....just slapping em out to meet demand...

I would take a HAND PICKED WASR over a GP-75 any day of the week...used parts for sure, but most are in good shape and will do what any WARSAW pact rifle will.

DC receivers are as good or better than most east block...that is one good American product....and I mean the NDS-1 not the NDS 3 that had TAPCO g2 fit issues. Stay away from any other US made receiver.

A big problem with about 1/2 of the new AK's out there is that they are not FACTORY arsenaled....just slapped together by century or whomever they subed to do it. Look for something made in Europe, or by the Arsenal Of Bulgaria's US factory in NV where they imported the know how.

Another problem is old or poorly made new parts. One has to doe RESEARCH before buying these days.
Are you sure that it didn't just have the slant brake removed? That does seem a little odd. I bought mine a year ago, and it was crowned with a slant brake. Of course, it is a Century, so hard to say.

Believe me, after buying the GP (that I had), I'd gladly take that over any WASR. The fit and finish on that one were light years apart in quality to any WASR I've seen.

FMJMIKE
February 28, 2010, 09:07 AM
Get a Ruger Mini-14. They were $711 at Walmart.........:D
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/Miniscope.jpg

dom1104
February 28, 2010, 09:43 AM
so quit buyin jumk and get an ar or a quality ak. spend what you gotta.

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