Armalite AR-10 Vs. M1a NM "Its On!" now what?


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mshootnit
February 26, 2010, 05:31 PM
My boss told me that now that I have a M1a we are going to have a shoot out between his Ar10 and my M1a National Match. He has a free float tube on the Armalite, heavy stainless barrel. What do you guys think, do I have a shot? What should I stipulate as part of the competition and what ammo should I use?

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mljdeckard
February 26, 2010, 05:34 PM
Federal gold match 168 gr BTHP. (If you can get any.) Without handloading, that is as good as you can get.

Both of these rifles are good enough that it's going to come down to the shooters. You would have to tweak a lot of things to squeeze out the quality difference between them. Then should both be sub-MOA with match grade ammo. Some guys say that they single-load the M1A without a magazine, the weight and flex of the magazine in the frame affects accuracy.

PGNHAWK
February 26, 2010, 05:42 PM
If it's a tough call on paper, the M1A is a much better weapon to club him to death with.

1KPerDay
February 26, 2010, 05:43 PM
Are optics allowed?

CoRoMo
February 26, 2010, 05:43 PM
...it's going to come down to the shooters.

That's it. This will be a competition between shooters, not rifles. The two of you could probably trade rifles and end up with the same results. Maybe not, I don't know either of you.

Zerodefect
February 26, 2010, 05:50 PM
What options do you have at your range?


Usually I like to start with ready-ups. Gun low, bring it up, turn safety off, BOOM 100yd head shot, safety on, down. 10 times.

Then I like to set up a course. 25 yard run, drop to prone, 3 100yd headshots, 25 yards forward, drop to kneeling, 5 COM hits, 25 yd run forward, drop to squat or shoot offhanded from cover or something, 5 COM hits, approach target and shoot 10 more rounds while walking COM at any range your comfortable as long as you keep moving, safety on, transition to pistol and 5 to the head, 5 COM in any fashion you like.

Safety has to be on while moving, throw in at least one mag change or two, when you get bored have your competitor load your mags for you and sneak two snap caps or dummy rounds in. I love the added surprize of failure drills when you have no idea when its coming.

Time it. 5 seconds added for each miss. It's not as easy as it looks if you play fair. (As keeping your form neat, not just flailing about out there.)


My moneys on the AR10, especially if he has a good Aimpoint, Eotech, or Acog.

hillbillydelux
February 26, 2010, 05:52 PM
Sorry dude. Unless he is a lousy shot your goin down. Just my experience between the two.

R.W.Dale
February 26, 2010, 05:54 PM
IMO the ar10's design lends itself to more accuracy than the m1a

There's just too much stuff hanging off a m1a's bbl

RobMoore
February 26, 2010, 05:55 PM
Unless the two rifles are to be set up in rests and fired by machines, I'd say it is going to come down to which of you is the better shot, regardless of any comparison between the two guns people will try to make.

I say this because the difference only matters when the two competitors are of a high enough level that the limitations of the gun comes into play.......and truthfully you wouldn't be asking if you were at that level.

Zerodefect
February 26, 2010, 06:00 PM
depending on the type of comp, it can be easy to see that certain rifles have an advantage.

An AR15 would stomp both at the course I listed above. Changing mags is easier for me on the Ar10, better optic options, easier for me to hold steady, better ergos. And for some reason i keep breaking every M1 I get to try.

mshootnit
February 26, 2010, 06:07 PM
mljdeckard, thanks for the ammo suggestion

zero, that course of fire sounds fun! I am sure we won't be able to do it that way because of both of our physical limitations. Sounds like he is wanting a bench duel. I don't have the optics setup for it yet. Might just require him to do open sights!
I have shot some sub 2 inch groups open sights at 100 yds before, but I don't know how good he is...

nwilliams
February 26, 2010, 06:49 PM
Depends, who's a better shot, you or him?

skipbo32
February 26, 2010, 07:04 PM
yeah, i agree with PGNHAWK. i hate these "shoot-out" competitions because it leaves out all the other variables of combat. so the AR10 is more accurate....big deal. the question is: what gun do you take with you in the rough vast terrain of snow, sand or jungle - while climbing muddy hills and sleeping in the rain? i will take the M1A/M14 with open sights and gun down my oponent at 300 yds who is trying to de-ice his AR which has a dinged optic and a carbon encrusted bullet extractor. and if neither of us gets a kill shot and we both run out of ammo....i will wield my M14 with both hands at the foregrip and "club him to death" as PGNHAWK said. there is a reason the AR10 is no longer considered a weapon by the U.S. military.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/m149.jpg

Juice Boxes
February 26, 2010, 07:29 PM
there is a reason the AR10 is no longer considered a weapon by the U.S. military

Hmmm? When the military wanted their next gen SASS they went with an AR10 design even though they have stock piles of m14's sitting around.

skipbo32
February 26, 2010, 07:44 PM
well, all i know is...troops in the middle east and marines with DMR setups are using the M14. the navy seals love them as well. i guess it all depends on the POU, but i have always been told that the AR10 was a failure and was never used by the U.S. military. didnt we sell the surplus to Portugal or something? well, at least it is good to hear that some american civilians are having fun target shooting with them.

and yes, the M14 was discarded in NAM because it had the wrong POU and was sitting around collecting dust for many years before it was re-discovered. just because Clinton destroyed most of them becasue it was no longer the standard service riffle didnt mean that is wasnt one of the greatest "jack of all trades" rifles ever made.

General Geoff
February 26, 2010, 08:03 PM
but i have always been told that the AR10 was a failure and was never used by the U.S. military.

See: Knights Armament Company SR-25 (http://www.knightarmco.com/images/sr25.html)

skipbo32
February 26, 2010, 08:55 PM
thanks gen. geoff for the link. does anyone know the differnce between the AR10 and the SR-25? what were the improvments on the SR-25? i know the AR10 had barrel issues. and i assume less parts (if any) are interchangalbe between the SR-25 and AR-15....unlike the AR10 to AR15. i dont know much about the SR-25, but i know before the vietnam war, both the FAL and AR10 lost out to the M14 as the standard service rifle. and yes, i understand a lot of it is based on politics, but so is everything i guess. i think the biggest debate between the M14 and AR types is that ARs are more modular. -though, i have always enjoyed the simpicity and reliablity of the M14/M1A though. i dont know how many times i was simultaneously blastin' a 1,000 rounds with my friends who had ARs and having to wait on them while they fix a jam or failure to feed.

RobMoore
February 26, 2010, 08:58 PM
$$$$

mljdeckard
February 26, 2010, 11:42 PM
That's funny. I shot an M-110 SASS this fall with the 19th Group. I guess they didn't get the memo. Silenced and sweet.

navajo
February 26, 2010, 11:44 PM
What RobMore said $$$$. Check out the mag price.

The original AR-10 and the current AR-10 ain't the same gun.
IIRC one of the test AR-10s had a composite barrel, Stoner told the board it was not ready to test, the board fired it and the barrel burst.
Another reason was the mag did not drop out of the well from its own weight, too light.

But some AR-10s are in the sand box. There are photos floating around the net.

Not picking the FN was probably politics.

Along comes RSM and the world changed.

Float Pilot
February 27, 2010, 12:06 AM
Clinton destroyed most of them becasue it was no longer the standard service riffle
He had everything destroyed that Hillary told him to destroy. We had to turn in brand new 22 target rifles and pistols for destruction. One of his missions in life was to help undermine the country, old M-14s was just a crumb of the whole pie.


does anyone know the differnce between the AR10 and the SR-25? w

NONE of the current 308 sized AR platform rifles are like the real AR-10 military variant from the late 1950s. To see a real AR-10 you need to look at the Sudanese, Guatemalan, Burmese, or Portuguese versions.
Fairchild Aircraft was the design holder via their employee Eugene Stoner. Armalite was a sub- unit within Fairchild Aircraft.

The original REAL AR-10 prototype had an experimental alloy and steel barrel which the guys at Springfield Armory (the real Govt one) torture tested until they managed to get the barrel to burst. Because they wanted to proceed with the M-14 (T-44) project which would be an updated M-1 Garand..
Fairchild / Stoner replaced the barrel with a solid steel barrel, but S.A. put out a memo that it would take years to fix the problem. So they got their way and got to go forward with the M-14 project. (Note that the 82nd Airborne did not get M-14s until 1960 or 1961)

Until Eugene Stoner's smaller design, the M-16 came along shortly there-after.

The current commercial AR-10 B came about after 1995 when Mark Westrom, owner of Eagle Arms, purchased the ArmaLite brand name and the company became ArmaLite Inc. It is basically an upscaled AR-15.

The Stoner SR-25 built by Knight Industries, was designed as a sniper type rifle from the start.



PS: I would love for the original poster to get his butt out to the range so this thread could stop being another exercise in mental masturbation.

Jaws
February 27, 2010, 12:57 AM
but i know before the vietnam war, both the FAL and AR10 lost out to the M14 as the standard service rifle.

Yeah...:rolleyes:

FN MAG also "lost" to M60, Leopard 2 "lost" to M1 Abrams, .280 british "lost" to the .308.....;)

ar10
February 27, 2010, 05:59 AM
I have both, AR10B and M1A. They both shoot hand loaded 168gn BTHP and Varget. Both have custom sights but the M1A has a match barrel. Both are excellent rifles and I've never had a problem with either one, but I'm also biased and believe the military should have never given up using the .308 round.

mrnkc130
February 27, 2010, 06:16 AM
there is a reason the AR10 is no longer considered a weapon by the U.S. military.



here is one my buddy used...they issue them...

hso
February 27, 2010, 06:47 AM
The only thing you can do is require equivalent optics and the same course of fire.

If you don't have optics on your's then he shouldn't, but you can call "foul" on that because his eyes may be worse than yours. Not much to do but mount the same optic on both and shoot 5 rounds to zero/familiarize and then shoot for score.

General Geoff
February 27, 2010, 08:13 AM
Ideally you want a third party who is dispassionate about the result of the contest, to shoot both rifles.

UnTainted
February 28, 2010, 09:01 PM
I'll volunteer to shoot as the third party!

mshootnit
February 28, 2010, 09:54 PM
hso and general geoff,
great posts.
I like the fairness principle.

mshootnit
March 1, 2010, 04:04 PM
Update to the thread: I was curious to evaluate this rifle for accuracy so I have ordered the previously suggested Federal Gold Medal 168gr. ammo and a Basset low rail scope mount. Suggestions on the scope? I read here awhile back that a good scope for the money is the Bushnell elite 3200 10 power variable with the mil dot. I have also been thinking about the new Redfield. Any thoughts on scope or rings?

RobMoore
March 1, 2010, 04:07 PM
nevermind, I read that wrong

Birddog1911
March 1, 2010, 05:24 PM
Bassett is a damned fine mount, but if you can change your order to the standard model, you might want to. No co-witness with the low mount.

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