[natedog]

Would it even be concievable to carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked, with a round chambered, and only using the grip safety for safety? To me (limited experience) it would seem a whole lot like carrying a Glock, when all the Glock has is it's trigger safety.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Done all the time. You must simultaneously depress the grip safety and the trigger - and trip the manual safety - not likely duing holster carry.

[Preacherman]

Can be done, but I'd hate to think of what a good lawyer could do to you in court in a suit for damages... "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this person wilfully and knowingly did not apply a safety catch that has been built into this design of weapon for almost 100 years! The FBI's Hostage Rescue Team carries this type of weapon - and even these highly trained specialists apply the safety catch! Isn't this the most grotesquely irresponsible act anyone could think of? I demand that you award my client $99 million in reparation for this man's gross negligence!"

:rolleyes: :scrutiny:

[BluesBear]

Well it could be done, but why would you want to?

Do you think Rob Latham would be faster if he didn't use it?


And it's not exactly the same as a Glock. There are more things going on inside a Glock when you pull the trigger that there are in a 1911.

[MJRW]

Preacherman, how would they know the safety was not on? And is that really a "good" lawyer?

[SirVette]

FYI
The normal recommended SA carry is chamber empty.
Court view of pointing a cocked firearm at someone - wanton disregard for human life. Accidental discharge ...
If you are going to carry cocked, then safety on.

[Dave T]

The normal recommended SA carry is chamber empty.

You want to explain that?

The only people I've heard recommend that are people who don't know what they are talking about - like politicians, police administrators, lawyers, etc.

[fourdeuce82d]

"Court view of pointing a cocked firearm at someone - wanton disregard for human life. Accidental discharge ..."

true- that's why I was taught, and teach others, to follow the 2d & 3rd rules:

"Never aim your weapon at anything(one) you haven't decided to shoot (use a low ready while "discussing" the issue with the goblin)

and

"Keep your finger off the trigger until you've decided to shoot."

I have to agree with the previous poster- standard 1911 carry is Condition One..

[sm]

See
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=50758

Additonal personal thoughts:
1911 style was designed for C&L.

In learning a platform learn to use as was intended. Be it SA, DA/SA, DAO , including revolvers ( which way cyl turns, learn to load in dark only 3 rds for instance, close cyl...do you have a round that will fire...knowing the revolver you will go bang, instead of click - for instance).

Learning, training,practice with any platform, in this case a 1911 style is critical, it also becomes a "natural" reflex.

I use a 1911 style, have used for many many years. Out of "habit" if one watches me shoot a Revolver I will "snick" off the non-existent safety. My thumb just naturally does this, my trigger finger is along frame.

Aside: I learned on Revolvers and 1911 style. I CCW only SA, revolvers, or and occasional DAO polymer gun. Why? Simple , the manual of arms (MOA) are so ingrained I will "snick " off a safety by habit. My fingers are off trigger by habit. With my 3 chosen platforms when I snick off a safety I only "actually" snick off the 1911...does not matter on the other two.

In a serious situation I don't have to nor do I want have to "think" which way a safety , decocker ,anything is supposed to go. I have no problem with DA/SA guns, there are some very nice quality examples...I don't want to confuse myself, I don't own, therefore I don't train with DA/SA. Notheing wrong with them, I know whom prefer, or req'd to use as a service weapon.

I never argue, bash, or critique anothers choice on CCW. I have and will stress the importance of gun fit to shooter, in a platform/MOA in a large enough caliber to allow shooter using reliable ammo everytime in that gun to aquire quick accurate hits. I stress training with the firearm in the manner designed. It is easier to learn correct from get-go and establish correct habits and muscle memory. IN my case I can BETTER transition to Revolver, and DAO because in a sense I'm going from C&L to a "more simple, less mechanical" platform. Follow me?

I believe more persons should learn basics with basic guns that fit ( grips) to instill proper use. THEN if need change sights or whatever.

IF one does not learn with a crutch , so to speak, they are not dependent if said crutch is not available.

[ARperson]

I would never carry the 1911 chambered, cocked, and unlocked, unless it happened by mistake. My holster has a strap that keeps the hammer from falling on the firing pin while it's holstered; in the inadvertent chance that the safety does get flicked to off, there's one more physical thing to keep the hammer from connecting with the firing pin.

[Sean Smith]

The normal recommended SA carry is chamber empty.

Recommended by idiots, maybe.

To me (limited experience) it would seem a whole lot like carrying a Glock, when all the Glock has is it's trigger safety.

If the 1911 had a firing pin block (like most newer ones do), they'd be identical as a practical matter, though of course the details of the designs are very different.

[borodin]

It was not recommended by idiots. It was the Israeli Military that made that a standard way of carry. And they are not exactly a bunch of wimps.

I never carry any gun with a round in the chamber. If you carry a gun long enough, you will find that it CAN be taken away from you. I would rather know that it has an empty chamber for that reason. And its just plain SAFE!

[Brian Williams]

The 1911 history show that good OL' JMB wanted the 1911 with out a thumb safety
shown here is a 1905
http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/historic/1905%20Colt%20.45%20ACP.gif

Here is the prototype 1910
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1910.gif

[DMK]

I think the biggest risk with thumb safety off is not when drawing it, but when holstering it. Your hand will be pushing on the grip safety and you will be pushing the pistol into the holster. If anything such as a piece of your clothing or the holster, gets inside that trigger guard, it's not going to take much force to fire the weapon.

Personally, I don't favor DA only guns for just that reason, but at least with a DAO gun there is usually more travel and a bit more tension to overcome than on an SA. Unless you're talking about a DA Para, but they have a .... thumb safety.

[45auto]

The Glock is not fully cocked at 'rest' and has a much longer trigger throw than the 1911.

[10-Ring]

It could be done, but I would make sure that my gun was always in TOP MECHANICAL ORDER & I'd get the right holster to make sure the beavertail couldn't be activated accidentally.

[N3rday]

Personally I think a DA/SA would be better for use because if for some reason there is a failure to fire you can pull the trigger again as opposed to DAO and SA where you have to either rack teh slide or recock the hammer

However, 1911s rule, period.
pain in the ars to clean tho :(

[Zundfolge]

Chamber Empty

It was not recommended by idiots. It was the Israeli Military that made that a standard way of carry. And they are not exactly a bunch of wimps.

The purpose of a handgun to the military is nothing like the purpose of a handgun to Civilian CCW.

A soldier is usually carrying a rifle and has a bunch of armed buddies (unlike a civilian on the street). A soldier's pistol is his absolute last resort weapon ... after his rifle has failed or run dry. So I'm not all that impressed with what the Israeli Military tells its grunts to do (and I bet your average Israeli SpecOps guy carries full mag +1).

I'm not going to say carrying with an empty chamber is "stupid" but I seriously doubt the wisdom of CCWing that way.

When you need a gun, you'll need a gun RIGHT NOW ... in a SD situation you probably won't have time to get into a proper shooting stance and align your sights properly, so the extra time to rack the slide just won't be there (plus, try doing it under the pressure a life-or-death situation will put you under).

In addition, if you have enough time to draw and rack the slide, it might be argued that you have enough time to flee (for those of you who are paranoid about archaic legal issues).

[Lone_Gunman]

Borodin,

You are giving credit for chamber empty carry to the Israelis?

I was under the impression the US Army had been doing it that way the whole time the 1911 was in service.

[nemesis]

I never carry any gun with a round in the chamber. If you carry a gun long enough, you will find that it CAN be taken away from you. I would rather know that it has an empty chamber for that reason. And its just plain SAFE!

Leave it at home. It's safer and nobody can take it away from you.

I carry with a round chambered and the 1911 safety on. Molon labe.

[borodin]

Boy the standards on this place have sure gone down. You guys are just interested in getting into a pissing contest with the other posters here.

[natedog]

Borodin, these people are just trying to show you (and anyone who might be reading) the most advised method of carrying a 1911. No one is interested in getting in "a pissing contest", just trying to have a diffferent (and much more widely regarded method) considered. Not only is carrying with a round not chambered the improper way to do things, but it can get you killed. And, when you advise others to carry without one chambered, you could get them killed. Here's reference to another thread on this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50809

[Zundfolge]

borodin, most of us here have been polite ... we just disagree that carrying any gun without "one in the pipe" is poor tactics for civilian self defense (granted there have been a couple of gruff posts).

The main reason I had never considered a 1911 type pistol for CCW carry is precicesly because I thought "Cocked & Locked" was unsafe. The more I've learned about the design of the 1911 the more I've realised that C&L is not only safe, it may actualy be safer then a "safe action" Glock (how many NDs have you heard about from 1911s vs. Glocks?).

Anyway, go read this article ... maybe you won't want to start carrying a round chambered yourself, but maybe you'll feel better about some of these other guys carrying their 1911s cocked & locked on a loaded chamber.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

[ExMachina]

First, the strikers in Glocks are NOT fully cocked in the holster, that only happens when you pull the trigger through its full stroke.

Second. in a 1911 (BHP, CZ75, etc), the thumb safety puts a nice *big chunk of metal* in front of the hammer so even if the sear breaks the gun won't fire.

For safest carry w/ a 1911, carry in either condition 1 or cond 3 (and not in cond2 or cond 0.5)
-ExM

[BluesBear]

Personally I think a DA/SA would be better for use because if for some reason there is a failure to fire you can pull the trigger again as opposed to DAO and SA where you have to either rack teh slide or recock the hammer :scrutiny:
If it doesn't go bang the first time what makes you think it will the second?
Tap, Rack, Bang. Every time. Train it, Do it, Live it.

And what makes you think a 1911 is a pain to clean? Unless it has a full length guide rod, you can field strip it in about 30 seconds or less.

[James Bondrock]

Would it even be concievable to carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked, with a round chambered, and only using the grip safety for safety?

:what: :eek:

[chrisinmo]

I can not imagine why someone would chose to carry cocked and unlocked. I have seen people extoll the virtues of actions with no manual safety by saying there is not manual safety to fumble with. The safety on the 1911 can be easily disengaged before the gun can be brought to target from the holster. If smeone is unable to consistently get the safety off in taht manner they have no business carrying a 1911 until they get significantly more practice with that gun! It is not that difficult to master taking the safety off during the draw.

[Edward429451]

The only reason I can think of of why some one would consider carrying a 1911 cocked & unlocked, is that they are unfamilier with the design and scared that they'd forget to release it on the draw.

natedog, if you train with the 1911 as you should, drawing and shooting/dryfireing, it will become 2nd nature to release the safety and will not slow you down one whit.

My safety gets released at about a 45 deg angle as it comes up from the draw and I have never 'missed' the smallish safety or forgot to release it. It takes no conscious effort to do it, it just happens. (It's guarenteed to annoy your wife or GF going around the house drawing down / practicing, but thats what it takes to ingrain it to muscle memory!!)

Practice practice practice...:cool:

[happyguy]

All this fear of carrying "cocked and unlocked" yet that's how folks carry their Glocks every day. And no, a modern 1911 won't discharge if the hammer slips off the sear, that's one of the unintendid benefits of the firing pin safety.

BTW, I carry "cocked and locked".

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[Edward429451]

Yeah but carrying a glock chambered is carrying it unlocked and uncocked.

[James Bondrock]

All this fear of carrying "cocked and unlocked" yet that's how folks carry their Glocks every day. And no, a modern 1911 won't discharge if the hammer slips off the sear, that's one of the unintendid benefits of the firing pin safety.


This comparison was inevitable. I know the Glock has a light trigger with no manual safety (more on this later), and I know you should never put your finger on the trigger until the sights are on target. Carrying the 1911 in Condition Zero is not an accident waiting to happen, thanks to the grip and firing pin safeties (if a Series 80). The problem is from quick manipulation under stress. The 1911 has little or no takeup in the trigger, followed by a crisp light release. It is going to be easy to touch the trigger when drawing the gun quickly, and once that happens, even the firing pin safety will not stop the gun from firing. The Glock has a lot of takeup in its trigger, followed by a spongy release that requires even more movement. It gives you a hedge against such an unintentional discharge. Training to never put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on the target is well and good, but it may not stay with you under the stress of mortal combat. I have never heard of any combat trainer that advocates carrying a 1911 in Condition Zero.

[natedog]

How so edward? On a Glock if you pull the trigger it goes bang. It is cocked.

[BluesBear]

Because a Glock is termed a "safe action" pistol.

What Safe Action means is that the striker is NOT at full cock, it is, in essence, half-cocked or pre-tensioned.
The striker (firing pin) is blocked from forward movement.

The gun can't fire until the trigger is pulled, cocking the striker and removing the block.

[natedog]

I realize that Glocks are "half-cocked", but for the point of discussion, they are fuctinally cocked, in that if you pull the trigger, they will fire.

[BluesBear]

For the point of discussion, so will a Double Action Revolver.
And they are functionally uncocked and unlocked.


Would anyone advocate carrying a S&W Model 19 cocked?
How about a Ruger SP101? :uhoh:

After all if the hammer fell, the internal block would prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer.
:scrutiny: :rolleyes: :scrutiny:




So from what you are saying carrying a S&W revolver cocked, or carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked is just as safe as carrying a Glock? :what:

:banghead:

[Edward429451]

Yeah, what Bluesbear said.

For discussion it may be thought of as cocked, but for carry it is not cocked. I had some misgigivings about keeping one in the pipe until I learned how its set up inside and how it functions, now I keep it chambered with total confidence (in my ability to keep my finger off the trigger!).

I'm still looking to sell or trade mine for another 1911 type, but not for safety issues and thats another thread.

:)

[OF]

The gun can't fire until the trigger is pulledHow is this, functionally, different from what was proposed (1911, safety off)? The 1911 won't fire unless you pull the trigger in that condition either...and you have the grip safety, which the Glock does not have.

I think DMK has a good point about holstering, but that is also no different from the Glock's action...and that's a Safe Action! ;)

- Gabe

PS: Borodin, not everyone who disagrees with you is doing so just for the sake of argument. They just might actually think you're wrong. And they just might have shown how polite they are by ignoring your thinly veiled condescension, as well. See, some of us have been carrying guns 'for a long time' too, but have yet to come to your conclusions...but you never know, maybe we will after we finally get to your experience level.I never carry any gun with a round in the chamber. If you carry a gun long enough, you will find that it CAN be taken away from you. I would rather know that it has an empty chamber for that reason. And its just plain SAFE!I think your decision to carry, as a civilian, a weapon in an unready state is a major mistake. I would never advise a student to carry in that condition as it can most certainly get them dead. How adept are you at racking that slide with one hand? Not the easiest thing in the world...

[Sean Smith]

I never carry any gun with a round in the chamber. If you carry a gun long enough, you will find that it CAN be taken away from you. I would rather know that it has an empty chamber for that reason. And its just plain SAFE!

Using that logic, criminals should be very happy that your gun isn't loaded, too. ;)

IIRC, the U.S. Army field manual for the 1911 advised carrying with an empty chamber in rear areas, and cocked & locked when expecting action with the enemy.

[JohnKSa]

Like all of this hasn't been beaten to death 100 times.

How about something new to kick around?

The Glock trigger guard width is about 0.57". What's the typical width of a 1911 trigger guard?

Has anyone noticed that the trigger design of the Glock deflects a snagging object toward the top of the trigger where it can't operate the trigger safety? Where does the design of a 1911 trigger deflect a snagging object to?

There are two objects preventing a Glock striker from moving any time a round is chambered. How many objects prevent a 1911 firing pin from moving when ALL the safeties are engaged?

[Lone_Gunman]

Has anyone noticed that the trigger design of the Glock deflects a snagging object toward the top of the trigger where it can't operate the trigger safety? Where does the design of a 1911 trigger deflect a snagging object to?

I sure as heck wouldnt want to rely on that.