[shockwave]

This is a response to a comment in one of the SG for HD threads going on. In it, the writer says that he doesn't like shotguns for home defense because if it's dark, he wants one hand holding a pistol and the other hand holding a flashlight. The thinking is that having to use both hands for the shotgun is a demerit.

Well, we know that there are a variety of tactical flashlights and lasers that can mount to a shotgun barrel or forend or picatinny rail (http://store.a51tactical.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=66_67_79). But as a purist, a sidesaddle and sling are the only modifications I can live with. The 500 is a basic gun and doesn't need to be any heavier.

And, a light mounted to a shotgun gives the other fellow a lot of information about you and your weapon. So from a tactical perspective, I'm not sold on the concept (no disrespect to those who disagree). My thinking is that the Browning Tactical Hunter Flashlight (http://www.tactical-store.com/ts-bg-fl-3711235-ffcfa.html) is in itself a weapon as the 210 lumens are in the blinding range.

So my thinking is to grab the shotgun, rack a shell, then use the light in the left hand also supporting the forend, and if I acquire a target, fire - drop light - fire and use the muzzle flash for lighting in addition to the light on the ground. Thoughts?

[Al LaVodka]

Thoughts? Not clear or complete thinking if I may say -- old at best and inexperienced at least.

Of course it is silly for someone to generally argue that a pistol is better for home defense as a shotgun is probably preferable at closer ranges for darned-near most foreseeable applications. But, of course, as a home defense arm one must admit that there is a strong possibility if not a liklihood that you'll be responding to something that goes bump in the night. Accordingly, you'll want a light.

In this regard, as you've traded one-handed shooting for whatever superiorities a shotgun may offer, and it takes two committed hands to handle (and please don't argue this -- it is a given), it is ideal to attach a light to your shotgun. One with a pressure switch so you can turn it on and off at will, tactically. And we are lucky that there are some decent products out there to help us in this. I think the micro-sized, extra-bright, super-overpriced LED's are a fad, but, again, there are options.

Al

[BK]

Use the muzzle flash for lighting? Can you fire a shotgun without blinking? If so, don't you think the muzzle flash might be a bit blinding itself?

I think there is more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for you might not work for others, and what works for me will certainly not work for everyone else. You might want to train after dark with a few different methods. It'll be easier to pick a method that way.

[Mossberg88]

I agree with both opinions. However, in the police academy it is taught that (provided the officer's discretion) when clearing a house/room/whathaveyou, to put the hand with the flashlight under and out to the side of the hand holding the weapon. The thought is, an assailant in the dark will shoot at the light which, if done properly will be far enough to the side from one's own critical mass.

[Fred Fuller]

Thoughts? No one I know of teaches or suggests that technique.

Get some good defensive shotgun training which includes a night shoot. Any good instructor will teach several practical alternatives in using both shotgun and flashlight effectively in low light, to include weaponlights attached to the shotgun.

Failing that, try something like Clint Smith's defensive shotgun video- http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html . Then you can work on some of the alternatives on your own. Use what works for you, once you have a sufficient database of experience to draw from.

fwiw,

lpl

[arizona98tj]

Shockwave.....Lee nailed it very well and his advice is very good.

I've taken about 60 hours of shotgun training that have included two night shoots. As Lee said, no one teaches dropping your light.....if you did that at the courses I attend, they would call a cease fire and ask that you pick it up. :D Dropping your light on purpose is in so many ways so wrong. How do you ascertain your target? Did you hit the bad guy.....is he leveling a gun at you to shoot back? What about multiple threats? Bad guys are known to bring a friend. Assuming you are using a light that has a click on/click off switch (you must be if you are relying on it to continue putting out light once it is down), what happens when the light drops on the floor and is now pointing at you? :banghead:

As for the 210 lumen light being a weapon unto itself.....I believe that if you do a little research, you might very well find that 80~120 lumens, inside of a room, is about all you want to use. Levels higher than that can cause so much splash back from windows, walls, ceilings, reflective objects, etc. that you will be working against yourself and the ability to see well. Keep those high lumen lights for outdoor use or larger buildings.

Get some training, training, and training......and then practice what you learned, often.....and then get some refresher training....and keep practicing. Gun handling skills are perishable.

[Al LaVodka]

I know, in fact, that some training not too far off is not unheard of...

NYPD, largest police force in the country and larger than almost any nation's army, certainly taught the cross-handed/backwards-held flashlight pistol hold as well as flashlights held to the side, using Maglights to "flash" a picture to then move it to other locations as well as to use them offensively to focus blinding light as well as to beat a target with the supplemental brass-weighted endcap of their main long flashlight! They often proposed carrying two lights -- I know one officer who captured a group singlehandedly by shining a light that he'd placed on the ground, announcing himself and warning the criminals to freeze or he'd shoot, and then quickly coming up BEHIND the unsuspecting perps, gun and main flashlight in hand...

Just one story. I certainly wouldn't recommend dropping one's (I-refuse-to-call-them-tactical) light as part of a strategy -- lol.

Al

[shockwave]

Thank you for the replies, gentlemen. I really wanted to hear some expert thinking on this, as there are many variables and strategies - taking a course will probably resolve a lot of open questions.

[Army of Don]

Unless you live alone and have no friends or family, the first priority in any nighttime home defense situation should be identification. Flashlights are far more effective at identification than shotguns. It is your moral, ethical, and often legal responsibility to identify your target before shooting (or at least to identify what it's not, i.e. friendlies).

If you hear something go bump/crash in the night, my recommendation is to grab your flashlight first, activate it, then grab a firearm. Keep the flashlight up and the firearm down until you have identified a hostile target. Turn on room lights as you progress thru the house until every light is on and the source of the noise has been identified; a flashlight should not be your primary means of illumination unless there are no other lights in the room.

If a shotgun is too unwieldy for you in this situation, you should probably consider a pistol. No one would argue that a pistol is a MORE effective weapon, but a pistol is still an effective weapon. The larger issue is that your choice of weapon is only one part of the equation, and not even the most important part at that: you MUST be able to identify your target first. A pistol in one hand with flashlight in the other is probably more effective at this than a shotgun for most people. Your mileage may vary. Weapon-mounted lights would also work as long as you keep in mind that you may end up pointing a loaded weapon at something you aren't willing to destroy, violating NRA Rule #1.

Obviously during the day time identification is much easier, so a shotgun would seem prudent as it is the most effective weapon should you encounter a hostile person.

My 2 cents.

[RDCL]

No home should be so dark at night that you'd need a flashlight to see. Even while sleeping. Just my opinion because that's how I live personally. All my flashlights are strictly for power outs. It's not JUST a security measure either. I just don't want to have to fumble my way to a light switch if I need a snack in the middle of the night.:D

That being said.....a shotgun is hard to beat as home defense.


Russ

[Fred Fuller]

Want to hear some real expert thinking? Then listen to Louis Awerbuck, Randy Cain, Clint Smith, John Farnam, Tom Givens, Mas Ayoob or any of the many genuine experts out there teaching the defensive shotgun. See http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396584 for an (in progress) list of trainers and schools, there are other lists in other places if you want to look. :D

hth,

lpl

[MCgunner]

I live next door to a well lit car wash. I don't worry about light, but there's plenty enough for a shotgun. I'd need to point shoot my handguns, but I'm well practiced at it and ranges are short in my little house. I have both next to the bed. If I have to leave the room, I usually take the .38 because it's easier to stash in a pocket if it turns out to be a cop at the door, which it was, once. So, he wakes me up to tell me to keep the doors locked. :rolleyes: Heck, I'm cocked and locked. :D

[FLNT4EVR]

scrap the light, it only gives the intruder something to shoot at. You know your own home like no one else .That gives you the advantage.I never have my house completely dark .Ther is always a night light on somewhere, usualy in the kitchen, but it is enough.A short handy shotgun is just what you need . who's going to stay and fight after the first person goes down? No one I can think of.

[RUT]

>>scrap the light, it only gives the intruder something to shoot at<<

My thoughts exactly!! ;)

[Zerodefect]

Use what works for you. My Ar or shotty never has a light on it. I don't plan on shooting anyone in the dark that isn't an obvious threat. Err towards NOT shooting.

My Surefire E2D is allways nearby or a G2. I just flash the room and move on. Never flash more than a split second. Your brain will "see" the whole room. Don't wander around with your light on when you have plenty of nightlights or moon.

Play woods paintball at night. You'll learn alot.

A friend of mine has flood lights on the outside of his house that he can control with a remote. Bright blinding flood lights. He also has them aiming down his stairs. Everyone sleeps upstairs.

If your at the bottom of the stairs and look up, you can't tell that your in the sights of a 590a1. You can't see anything but blinding light. LOLz. An interesting tactic of useing your house to your advantage. If a bit.....paranoid.


When your prepared and properly trained, any gun you grab should be OK for defense. My shotgun is too heavy and slow. it's a bit overkill as well. I'd only go for my Ar or shotty if I have time to grab them, threat is outside.

Otherwise my 1911 or glock23 are more practical and allready in the nightstand. My FN PS90 has a Surefire G2 mounted on it thats quick for clearing rooms.

[MCgunner]

Paintball? I'm old. If I'm going to do any shooting sports at night, it'll be sitting in my stand waiting on the hogs to come out. :D

[DougW]

Night lights on the Glock 17, Mossberg Maverick, M4'gery. I had to clear the house one night two handed (light in one hand, pistol in the other) and I determined that having both hands full sucks, unless they are both on a long gun.

[Moose23]

Lots of good info in these posts, especially ones about IDENTIFYING your target before you shoot anything, also keeping some sort of nightlight on all the time.

Something else to consider: If you're "protecting" your family, maybe consider using that shotgun with #8's instead of buck or slugs. If you're shooting inside your house, ranges will be less than 20 feet. 8's make a big messy hole in someone at that range, but lose kinetic energy quickly when going through something substantial. Something, say like a perp or a wall.

What's on the other side of that perp or that wall? The rest of your family. I don't want my family member injured by a miss or thru & thru.

[Shawn Dodson]

there is a strong possibility if not a liklihood that you'll be responding to something that goes bump in the night. Accordingly, you'll want a light. If I have reason to believe the noise is caused by human activity then my threat indentification process includes verbal commands, from a position of advantage.

WHO'S THERE! WHAT ARE YOU DOING!
(no response?)
WHO'S THERE! I HAVE A GUN! I'VE CALLED POLICE! LEAVE NOW!

I have a Remington 870 fitted with a Surefire WeaponLight. My plan is to use it for static defense of my bedroom, but I also train to use it for clearing. If I feel the need to investigate the house I have a weapon mounted Streamlight on my Glock 19.

There are no light switches near the master bedroom door that control any lights out in the common areas of the home. We have undercabinet LED lighting in the kitchen, which we turn on for a night light. I also have a couple of night lights placed strategically around the house.

I have a dog, which, when she's awake, doesn't take too kindly to strangers. But as she's aged she falls into a deep, snoring sleep. My car was burgled one night and she didn't stir, despite sleeping by a front window.

[JShirley]

If you're "protecting" your family, maybe consider using that shotgun with #8's instead of buck or slugs.

Horrible advice. Any firearm may do the job, but handicapping yourself deliberately is just silly.

I prefer a carbine for HD, but a good shotgun you're familiar with works fine, too. The big advantage, IMO, is for those who shoot lots of shotgun hunting or in other shooting sports. If it's what you instinctively use best, use it in good health.

Birdshot is for birds. Birdshot is for birds. Birdshot is for birds. Sheetrock is NOT "substantial", and if you're shooting something you expect to be stopped by sheetrock, it's not likely to do a lot of good when it hits an attacker.

I wouldn't choose to use any shot size less than BB for defense under any circumstances, and even then, I'd expect a hell of a mess and probably a living home intruder that, depending on the state, might be able to sue me later. Thank god for the states that don't allow those injured in the commission of a felony to sue! :eek:

John

[Gideon]

small confined areas that you "have" to go into may be better handled with a pistol and light. If you have more room a shotgun excells. Muzzle blast doesn't do anything but give away a soldiers general postion to the enemy or ruin night vision.

In my house my kids (6) are spread out throughout the house, upstairs and down, therefore, I don't have the option to hole up in the master bedroom and call 911. Depending on the "noice" i HAVE to go check on them and I have small hallways and many corners so a pistol and light is good. For holding up in a safe room (the very best option if you can work it out) or in large roomy homes, a shotgun is excellent and a few LED night lights around the house in good locations provides sufficient light.

An On-board light is also viable on a longgun but depending on the mount, your arm length, the gun, etc. it may be you have to click it on and leave it on.

On my Shottie, I have to put it on and get my grip back where I need it. So my light is on and yes, a hiding bad guy sees you coming. But they see the light you hold with a pistol too and the idea of holding the light out to the side is valid for LEO's clearing buildings on a regular basis with training but you and me friend will be just "looking". That's why clearing a house is so dangerous because the person hiding in the dark while you look for them has all of the advantage.

best thing is to devise a plan that lets everyone stay in, or get to a safe room where you can cover the door with a shotgun and call 911.

Hard part about that is properly securing a shotgun or any gun, in that room in a way that keeps it safe but easily accessible.

I tend to put more effort into the gun than the plan which is all backwards. I'm trying to change that :o:o

Personally I think a simple light on a shotgun with a simple tailcap that can be lightly depressed (without clicking) for momentary on is perfect. You don't have to use it but can.

I've also seen an instructor use a technique carrying a light in his weak hand as he wielded his shotgun. I wouldn't be as effective with that technique because I need that hand to manage the recoil.


Gideon

[shockwave]

Digging in THR archives, I see some suggestions here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=348757). Of the various options, this one allows (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5819)the light to be detached.

[Pancho]

One of the benefits of taking the concealed carry course was the NRA produced movie on home defense. One of the most memberable points was that your bedroom and bed were your most defensible places. Instead of leaving that fortress to find the enemy one should make the enemy come to you by announcing loudly that you are armed and that you've called 911. If the response is "Sorry Mom,Dad
I'm late coming home."you can chew out your kid and tell the dispatcher that it's a false alarm. On top of that, I have enough night lights throughout the house and know my house well enough that I don't need a flashlight. My Judge with 3" 000 buck make up for the less than perfect lighting.

[Al LaVodka]

Gideon;
Why not just attach a pressure-swithch to the gun mounted light, or'd I miss something?
Al

[shockwave]

One of the most memberable points was that your bedroom and bed were your most defensible places.

Yep - I learned that in the NRA home defense course, too, live in my home. Take position behind the bed. All weapons trained on doorway. It's one of the best places to make a stand. On the other hand, I'd also like to keep intruders out, so that's a fall-back position if there's time to prevent unwanted entry.

[figment]

waiting for them to find you. thats an extreme advantage.

[Pancho]

figment, I'll admit that there are some holes in the NRA's strategy but a commander that can chose the battlefield is most often the victor. The movie also stresses that as one should have a family known plan for a fire one should also have a family known plan in case of an intruder.
This is not an accurate quote from anyone I know but on the other hand.....The best laid battle plans go to hell as soon as the first shot is fired.

[figment]

Poncho, agreed. I remember reading somewhere recently about a National training program for LE that has a clearing exercise. Each year they run it and for so many years no one has ever been able to survive except one and IIRC he was a supervisor for NASA security.

[Sheepdog1968]

I've taken some shotgun training classes. It's money well spent. In one of the classes we did night shooting. We tried some handheld flashlights. After that, it was up to us if we wanted to continue to use the handheld flashlight or to use the light mounted on our shotgun. I had a Surefire forearm on my shotgun. After shooting both ways, there is no doubt in my mind the better way is to use the light mounted onto the gun. Yes the Surefire forearm is expensive but IMO it is money well spent. I do practice both ways just in case. Shotgun plus Surefire foreend is still less than the backup pistol plus the mounted light on the pistol.

[bennadatto]

I agree that most "in-home" investigation will be as a result of something bumping in the NIGHT. I also agree that a flashlight in a dark room = awesome target for the bad guys!

So let's scrap all this tactical flashlight, 1.21 gigawatt lumen Tom Foolery. How about night lights...like the kind in the electrical outlet...the kind that stay on all night...the kind that don't add extra variables and weight to your home defense weapon.

For my buck, that's the easiest way to turn a no-light environment into a pretty-ok-light environment. Of course, YMMV.

[Al LaVodka]

Like the Kobayashi Maru exercise in Star Trek, the students are supposed to fail the house-clearing class to put the fear of God in them -- if you think they're a bunch of Rambo's AFTER they get out, you should see these idiots when they go INTO a police academy. A buddy of mine actually DID pass the test, but then someone stuck a gun over the wall although it was supposed to be in a house, after the test was over, and they "failed" him anyway...

BTW, what does a police officer smell when he's on duty!?

Al

[Balog]

My most persistent thought when house clearing in Iraq was how easy it would be for someone to kill me without me seeing them. Of course, if someone breaks into my house they're in the position I was in. The advantage is to the defender.

Oh, and I loved my weaponlight, but that was on a rifle I could use effectively one handed.

[Fred Fuller]

No bad guys are ever gonna yank your phone line out of the wall before they break in. Or take the receiver off the hook on the first phone extension they find. That just happens in the movies, right?

And no bad guys are ever gonna yank your electric meter base and kill the power to your house, either. That's just a Hollywood thing, everyone knows people who break into houses don't ever plan ahead.

So, how are those night lights working now that the power is off?

lpl

[figment]

the momentary transfer switch senses a loss of commercial power and battery backup kicks in.
or, you can have non-lethal flash lights deployed in every room. (A must for me as there are a lot of times I need one even with the lights on.)

or just go "silence of the lambs" on them with your NV goggles.

[Army of Don]

No bad guys are ever gonna yank your phone line out of the wall before they break in. Or take the receiver off the hook on the first phone extension they find. That just happens in the movies, right?

And no bad guys are ever gonna yank your electric meter base and kill the power to your house, either. That's just a Hollywood thing, everyone knows people who break into houses don't ever plan ahead.
Most won't. The biggest threat to the average homeowner is the smash-and-grab type of robbery, and typically those goons aren't going to plan that far ahead. They're going to break your window, ransack the place for stuff they can pawn, then get out as fast as they can. To your advantage, most of those happen when you're not home or when they think you're not home, so simply alerting them to your presence will usually be enough to scare them off. They don't want a confrontation any more than you do, in general.

On the other hand, the Hollywood-style home invasion DOES happen, just far less frequently, and with good reason. Bad guys that cut phone lines and disconnect power are after something more than just your big screen TV and your wife's diamonds; they know you're home, and they're specifically acting to neutralize your defenses. The question you should ask is "why?" Are you somebody important? What would such criminals want? I suppose a super tactical advanced army ranger infantry room clearing class would help, but your best weapon in that situation is a cell phone to call for backup from the local police.

[shockwave]

So let's scrap all this tactical flashlight, 1.21 gigawatt lumen Tom Foolery. How about night lights...like the kind in the electrical outlet

Oh, I wouldn't toss out the tactical flashlight so quickly. Let's look at this from the BG's perspective: house is dark, you're skulking around, fiddling with a window, whatever. Homeowner says "freeze" you turn and you are completely blinded. You can't see anything except a hot spotlight and are disoriented, and even if you have a gun you won't be able to aim it and will be turning your head away. After you turn your head away, the after-glare will still have you blinded for several seconds.

That's working better for me than nightlights. Just sayin'!

From the defender's perspective, you have a perp whose head is turning away from you and you have a well illuminated target. Far as I can tell, anything in the 200-300 lumens range is going to cause physical pain.

[Al LaVodka]

Oh, I wouldn't toss out the tactical flashlight so quickly... Far as I can tell, anything in the 200-300 lumens range is going to cause physical pain.
Yeah, mostly in your pocket.
I think I'll wait for it to come out on video...
Al

[Mr. T]

What do you do if you have children in the house....you can't very well leave them undefended against some perp coming into your house? I would be in the position of having to go out to meet the threat and you can be damn sure I wouldn't be carrying a freakin' flash light to give them something to aim at.

[Jack2427]

Been gone a while, had to go make a buck. After reading some of the above comments some of which are really good advice, and some not so good, I just have to kick in my .02-in a friendly like kind of way. Sooooooooo:

1. You had better identify your target before you shoot anything, unless you want to spend some time in close confines with a very lovable guy named Turk. Or in your own personal hell if you shoot/kill a loved one.

2. The operative word in home defense is DEFENSE. That means take a defensive position. There is no one, including myself, on this forum who is capable of safely clearing his own home alone, unless he lives in a one room cabin out in booneyland, and that may be iffy. If you go offensive, you risk life and limb, and possible legal problems. Between my wife and myself, we have 45 years of active military, and 40+ years of LE experience-all of it in high activity/ high speed areas. My wife is still on her big city SWAT team (she fits in spaces big guys won't), and we have probably have cleared thousands of buildings between us, and we have agreed on a static defensive position for defense of our homes, that keeps us and the kids/grandkids safe, and lessens the possibility of any gunfire. Remember, ANY gunfire in ANY home is dangerous to ALL in the dwelling, your mission is to prevent gunfire if at all possible.

3. The only thinghies on our defensive weapons are a weapon mounted light, handgun or long gun, and a butt cuff for the shotguns with ammo. The light will help much more than it hurts or hinders-remember-defense!

4. Birdshot is for birds, and sometimes it don't work on them! If you are going to shoot, shoot with something that will stop your enemy, not just hurt him. Our HD weapons consist of: 12 gauge, .38 special, and .45 ACP. The 12 gauge load is buckshot, (I like #4 or #1 for indoors).

5. Light is your friend: We have motion activated outdoor lights (the solar powered battery type, and regular hardwire). Inside I have installed numerous of those LED AAA powered motion lights, they are cheap, and fit almost anywhere, anyone walking through the house will trip them, letting us know where they are, they are also nice for when we enter before we turn on the lights. Had them for 9 months now and have yet to replace a battery.

6. I am prepared to defend my loved ones lives with my own, but I am not going out by being silly. If a BG wants me he is going to have to come and get me, and I am quite certain he will fail because I will know where he is, and he will not know where I am, and I will be well defended and the BG will be prowling around. I am NOT going to try to scare him by clanking a pump gun around, I will try to stop him dead in his tracks if he becomes a threat-even a little threat.

7. Speaking of threats, you are going to have to be able to articulate the threat you were defending yourself against, sometimes to not so sympathetic authorities. It will be more difficult if you have been aggressively prowling around looking to shoot the BG and not trying to stay away from him till the police get there.

8. Speaking of the police, you had better have called them(from a legalistic point of view), and when they are on the scene, and you are sure they are the police (by calling 911 back if need be). You want to notify them where you are and that you are armed. Then when you present yourself to the police be UNarmed, no sense in getting killed accidently after everything is all over.

I know someone will take exception to my viewpoint, and no doubt there are some folks out there who have a better idea, to each his own. However I plan to survive a HD event, and have no legal problems thereafter, and most importantly, have all my people come out safe and sound (and not too traumatized).

[Al LaVodka]

...and you can be damn sure I wouldn't be carrying a freakin' flash light to give them something to aim at.
T;
Fact: to see you need light in certain wavelengths. Fact: without a flashlight you have dangerously limited your capabilities and certain choices. With one, if configured correctly, you have the choice of if, when, and how to (with a little training) use it.
Al