Blackpowder cartridges in modern revolver


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mesinge2
February 28, 2010, 02:00 PM
Is it safe to load black powder cartridges in a modern revolver?

Specifically, 235 Grain Goex Black Dawge Black Powder Ammunition in 45 Colt LRN loaded into a Taurus Judge.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=244344

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rcmodel
February 28, 2010, 02:03 PM
Perfecty safe.

However, you are not going to like cleaning up after it in a modern DA revolver.

rc

mesinge2
February 28, 2010, 02:11 PM
I just bought the Judge Public Defender and now the 4" Judge I have is going to become a fun gun, so I am going to loads all kinds of rounds in it just for fun.

I am not a Taurus fan, but the Judge I like and the public defender is small enough to fit in my pocket.
Great BUG for my Colt 1911.

rcmodel
February 28, 2010, 04:09 PM
Just be sure you understand all the implications of shooting black powder.

Gun cleaning takes on a whole nother meaning when black powder fouling is left to set and ruin your gun.

Scroll down to the "Cleaning Revolving Pistols" section of this:

http://www.civilwarguns.com/9502.html

rc

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
February 28, 2010, 05:05 PM
I shoot the Goex Black Dawge in my Ruger Blackhawk, and all I can say is WOW!!! Power, Recoil, Smoke.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
February 28, 2010, 05:12 PM
Here is the Goex 235 gr Black Dawge in my Ruger 4 3/4 barrel 45 Colt
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/RugerBP452shots.gif

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
February 28, 2010, 05:21 PM
Goex 235 gr Black Dawge in wife's 45 Colt Ubertie 4 3/4 barrel.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/anigif-1.gif

RyanM
February 28, 2010, 05:29 PM
Tweety Bird!

Anyway, I've shot homemade BP .38s in a Ruger SP-101 before. I had to wipe off the front of the cylinder with a damp cloth after every 5 shots, because it would start to bind!

For more fun, you should load some .410 shotshells with BP.

Clean it well, and you'll have no problems. Also, remember to clean the brass if you're going to reload! I cleaned my gun, but forgot to clean the shells. They were bright green and crumbly a week later.

The Lone Haranguer
February 28, 2010, 05:30 PM
The pressure will not harm the revolver in the slightest. Even a fully compressed load has lower pressure, over a longer duration, than smokeless powder with its fast pressure "spike." The cleanup afterwards will be messy. But WHY?

PRM
February 28, 2010, 07:34 PM
But WHY? - The Lone Haranguer

Odd question for a BP forum???

Why? - Its fun...!!!

BHP FAN
February 28, 2010, 07:41 PM
I've loaded up 16 gr. of Triple Seven in a .38 S&W for my ''war finish'' Webley and Scott revolver. Jolly good fun, that.

mesinge2
February 28, 2010, 09:10 PM
rcmodel, I read the link.

Thanks

Will I have to remove the judge's cylinder and detail strip it in order to clean it?
Or should I purchase a dunk kit and remove the grips and soak the gun?


BTW, the shotgun shells are already pretty nasty in the Judge. I have the stainless steel model and after about 80 shells the gun looks like its blued from mid-cylinder to muzzle forget using the fiber optic sight.

Oyeboten
March 1, 2010, 03:34 AM
For BP Metallic Cartridge in a modern Revolver, Home-Made 'Lube Wafer' under the Bullet, makes fouling a lot less, and, clean up, easier...should be able to do quite a few dozen shots without any binding.

BCRider
March 1, 2010, 03:40 AM
Cleaning a cartridge gun after black powder would be easy peasy compared to my cap and ball revolvers with their dead ended cylinder bores. Just hose the cylinder and barrel with hot water and then patch out the chambers and barrel with windex instead of smokeless powder solvent. For occasional use I can't see it getting into the action enough to worry about.

One thing to keep in mind if you've read the BP fundementals sticky is that black and petroleum based oils do not go together well. You'll need to clean the gun with solvent and re-lube with vegtable or animal based oil. Or something that isn't petro based such as Ballistol.

BullRunBear
March 1, 2010, 06:49 AM
It's certainly safe. I have a stainless New Vaquero in 45 Colt I use for BP cartridge handloads. They are comfortable to shoot, quite accurate, and boy howdy, do they noticed on the firing line. (If possible, I try to stay down wind as a courtesy to other shooters.)

Cleaning is the same as for C&B revolvers and easier as you don't have to remove and clean the nipples. Haven't tried this with a double action. The idea of cleaning crane hinges, the star extractor and shaft and the other nooks and crannies on a DA doesn't appeal.

I keep a hundred 45 Colt cases separated for BP loading. When I get back from the range, I decap the empties and let them soak in hot soapy water while I clean the gun. I scrub them out with a nylon bristle brush, rinse, and let them air dry. A little extra work but worth it for the extra fun and novelty.

Jeff

madcratebuilder
March 1, 2010, 07:12 AM
I've loaded up 16 gr. of Triple Seven in a .38 S&W for my ''war finish'' Webley and Scott revolver. Jolly good fun, that.

Love shooting BP from my Webley, it's been cut for .45acp but I'm going to repair the cylinder and shoot .455. I shot this yesterday and had a blast.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/PICT0022.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/PICT0020-1.jpg

mesinge2
March 1, 2010, 11:52 PM
One thing to keep in mind if you've read the BP fundementals sticky is that black and petroleum based oils do not go together well. You'll need to clean the gun with solvent and re-lube with vegtable or animal based oil. Or something that isn't petro based such as Ballistol.

BCRider, Thanks for the tip.

What gun oil would you suggest?

BCRider
March 2, 2010, 01:10 PM
The other pundits around here are all about the Ballistol. And now that I've found a source for it I also use it for after cleaning to lube and protect.

But before I found a supplier locally for Ballistol I used good old Canola cooking oil for the whole season on my cap and ball revolvers. I even ran a rust test on it with raw steel, Breakfree CLP and Canola test subjects. The canola actually turned out to be the BEST at rust proofing the steel. However after sitting in the sun it dried to a varnish like clear coat so that may have been why it won. Because I know that it'll eventually get sticky from drying even away from the sun I won't use it for serious long term storage. But for a month or so at a time it works superbly. And if you're just going to clean the gun from smokeless, take it out for a day of black powder and then clean and lube it again for smokeless then the far, far cheaper Canola cooking oil will do you just dandy. And the BP munge when mixed with Canola just cleans right away with the typical hot and soapy water.

At our noon lunch break at a cowboy action day I can remember pulling my cylinders out and looking down the barrel. IT WAS SCARY LOOKING IN THERE! :D Loose gooey strands of black corruption were spiderwebbed back and forth along the barrel. It was a soft combination of the Canola and BP residue because I was using a drop of Canola over the balls to seal them from chainfire and to help lube the barrel. As it turned out there was nothing at all to worry about and I could have carried on shooting just fine. But on this occasion I chose to wash it out with a spritz of Windex. The mess just hosed away and out onto the ground from the two squirts I gave it and the drying swab that I pushed through with a bit of dowel came out with hardly a mark. So again the Canola worked well at keeping the fouling soft to aid with avoiding any jams.

Assuming that you're loading your own cartridges another source of bad lube that may produce tar like deposits would be the bullet lube on cast bullets. This should be boiled out of the grooves and replaced with a vegtable shortening and beeswax mix to again be sure to stay away from petroleum products. Although I seem to remember something about parrafin wax as used for sealing canning jars as being OK with black powder. But only when mixed with some vegtable shortening such as Crisco. Mind you I may be worrying about nothing on this count. I'll have to ask the guys that shoot black from their 1873 replicas to see what their cleaning issues are like.

mesinge2
March 2, 2010, 05:14 PM
At our noon lunch break at a cowboy action day I can remember pulling my cylinders out and looking down the barrel. IT WAS SCARY LOOKING IN THERE! :D Loose gooey strands of black corruption were spiderwebbed back and forth along the barrel.

Ha, that made me laugh.

Thanks, for the info I am going to put some canola in my range bag.
Now with the windex, did you spray a patch and run it through the barrel or spray directly into the barrel?

BTW, I love cleaning tricks like this.

I use a three-headed tooth brush to clean the small parts of my 1911:

http://dencare.en.alibaba.com/product/244746381-209330719/Dencare_three_sided_toothbrush.html

351 WINCHESTER
March 2, 2010, 06:02 PM
As I recall ballistol is petroleum based. I could be wrong.

hildo
March 2, 2010, 07:12 PM
http://www.twolefthands.nl/Zwart%20Kruit/Page14/BFR_zwartkruitB.jpg
I don't use anything anymore but Black in my BFR in 45-70 and it works fine, smokeless is a little hard on the wrist.
No problem in cleaning at all.

Since the lands & grooves in the barrels of smokeless guns are cut less deep then those of BP weapons. I'm not sure if this has an actual effect on accuracy.
I seeme not to get a grouping as small as with my true BP revolvers.

Anyone know something about this?

Hildo

BCRider
March 2, 2010, 11:53 PM
Mesinge2, Just put the nozzle on stream and shot it down the barrel from the forcing cone end with the barrel pointed downwards. It went in blue and rolled out the other end black as a moonless overcast night in a thick forest. The "patch" following the Windex was just a wadded up blob of paper towel pushed through with a stick of hardwood dowel to swab out any remaining boogers. Following that I pushed through another one wetted with canola to lube it. This WAS a field cleaning job after all... :D

351Win' I'm not sure what Ballistol is based on but it's had any bad issues refined out of it if it is petroleum based. As I said, all the pundits here say it's as good as a proper vegtable oil or shortening (Crisco). So who am I to argue? But I'll likely continue to rely on Canola for short term use as before since it's about 1/4 the price and works just fine for during the active use shooting season where at most a month will go by before the guns are used again.

madcratebuilder
March 3, 2010, 07:29 AM
As I recall ballistol is petroleum based. I could be wrong.
It's primarily mineral oil, which is a petroleum by-product. Ballistol does not form the hard carbon deposits that you may get from regular gun oils.

oldpuppymax
March 3, 2010, 10:20 AM
I much prefer BP (cowboy load) cartridges to smokeless. My 1858 New Army Uberti will handle smokeless quite easily (long as it isn't "high velocity"), but at a maximum 75' range or so, why invite the stronger recoil? And cleaning a cartridge BP pistol is a JOY compared to a cap and ball.

BHP FAN
March 4, 2010, 10:38 PM
Madcratebuilder!I love that gun! Why ''repair'' anything? You have the best of all things,ammo is cheap and easy to make with black powder and easily available .45 acp cases...

BCRider
March 5, 2010, 12:41 AM
MCB, any thoughts on what's in Ballistol that gives it that eye watering smell to go with the benign mineral oil? Are there any recipes around for a home brew Ballistol clone?

Also on that Webley of yours what is that funky looking wedge ahead of the cylinder used for? I've seen other Webleys but don't recall seeing anything like that on them. And yeah, if it's working well with easily attainable .45ACP then why switch? But how do you get it to eject the empties? Or is that why you'd like to switch?

arcticap
March 5, 2010, 12:31 PM
From:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4450.0

It is a form of mineral oil extracted from coal. Most likely lignite coal.

About ten years ago or so when I first learned about this stuff I called a distributor, I believe out of Colorado, and talked with him about it. He passed on the story that it was a coal oil product developed in Germany as an all in one lube that would help to preserve metal, oil, wood, and even serve as an antiseptic aid for minor cuts.




Manufacturing
Ballistol USA now manufactures Ballistol-Lube in the United States with certain very important ingredients still being imported from Germany.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sister Companies
In 1874, Friedrich Wilhelm Klever, an attorney with interest in economy, founded the "Klever Company" in Cologne, Germany. He began producing oils and greases from coal and eventually bought a coal mine, so he would not run out of raw materials. Freidrich's son, Dr. Helmut Klever, had become a professor of chemistry at the Technical University of Karlsruhe. He set out to develop an all-around oil for the Army. In 1904 Dr. Helmut Klever succeeded in producing an oil, which he named "BALLISTOL, from the word 'ballistic' and the Latin word for oil 'oleum'. BALLISTOL has been around in Europe for over 90 years. Originally invented for military use it became a household word in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Millions of users have experimented with BALLISTOL and found new surprising applications for it, some of which reach into field of veterinary and even human medicine.

http://www.ballistol.com/dealer_Becomewtc.htm

rcmodel
March 5, 2010, 12:40 PM
what is that funky looking wedge ahead of the cylinder used for?Standard equipment on Webleys.
And a pretty good idea too.

It is there to make re-holstering easier/smoother/faster without the cylinder face hanging up on the edge of the holster like our revolvers are prone to do.

I suppose it could be used to deflect a frontal attack on the gun hand from a knife or bayonet too????

rc

arcticap
March 21, 2010, 07:59 PM
I don't use anything anymore but Black in my BFR in 45-70 and it works fine, smokeless is a little hard on the wrist.
No problem in cleaning at all.

Since the lands & grooves in the barrels of smokeless guns are cut less deep then those of BP weapons. I'm not sure if this has an actual effect on accuracy.
I seeme not to get a grouping as small as with my true BP revolvers.

Anyone know something about this?

I'll bet that the rifling depth does have something to do with it.

Most of the black powder rifles that shoot conicals the best seem to have deeper rifling grooves.
Maybe the deeper rifling can hold more black powder fouling so once it fouling begions, it doesn't lose as much of its ability to impart spin unto the projectile. This may help to produce more consistent spin, velocity and performance.

I think that an analogy might be like driving a car through wet snow, and how when the tire treads start to get all clogged up with it, they lose their ability to gain much traction. Then the car can't move forward as well, steering becomes less precise and predictable and its performance suffers.
If you've ever driven through snow then you know what I mean. :)

andrewstorm
March 21, 2010, 11:44 PM
iffin u wanna clean it after every shoot,its is allright with sammi,black powder or subs,generate far lower pressure curvs than smokless powder loads enjoy ur smoke:cool:

mesinge2
March 22, 2010, 12:13 AM
I Shot the black powder! 150 rounds out of a Judge with a 3" barrel. This was the first round through it:

118220



Just finshed cleaning, in a word WOW!

Pre cleaning pic, after wiping at the range:

118221

I Practically soaked it in Breakfree; It came out looking pretty good though, post cleaning image:

118167


I looks like it is a matte blueing over half of the gun. I was supprised by the accuracy of the blackpowder rounds, I don't know why but they seemed more accurate that the Hornady LEVERevolution I have been using. However, accuracy started suffering after about 100 rds. I just tried BCRider's trick a "spritz of Windex" down the barrel, works great!

Thanks for the tip BCRider.

Anyways I fired another 50 rds or so and finished up with the Judge for the day and started on my Security Six's work out.

BP rounds are too much fun, I need to make some more!


P.S. Funny side note my Fiber optic sight disappeared after 10 rounds.

BCRider
March 22, 2010, 12:51 PM
My own indoor range won't let me shoot black powder. I assumed it was because of all the smoke but he said that it was the often longer lived glowing embers. The smokeless guns puke out a lot of unburnt powder and it's all laying on the floor in the first 20 feet of the firing line. One glowing grain of black into that and we'd be in for quite the show.

He's right too. I've stayed around to chat on many occasions until closing time and helped the guys sweep up the brass and generally clean. There's a HEAP of powder in with the brass. Much of it comes from the Winclean ammo apparently.

Mesinge, if you're going to be shooting a mix or switch to all black you'll want to swing away from petroleum oil products in your Judge and go with either Ballistol or some vegtable oil. That will also aid in clearing the fouling by keeping it softer.

And as much as I'd like to take credit for the Windex trick it was something that I read here at THR or one of the other black powder "how-to" websites when I was doing my initial homework. I just passed it along.

RyanM
March 22, 2010, 05:17 PM
Being paranoid explosions is usually good, but I sort of doubt that a spark would do much to set off the powder. If it wasn't ignited by the muzzle blast, it's not likely to go off from a spark. I know 100% that Alliant Power Pistol is so insensitive, a muzzleloading cap in a revolver won't ignite it without a BP booster (NAA Companion load). It also requires a lot of pressure to ignite from a centerfire primer. Trying to make a blank with some newspaper packed into a .40 case only gets you a pop no louder than the primer itself, and a newspaper "bullet" and all the powder flying out.

BCRider
March 22, 2010, 11:09 PM
It's more the flash fire they are worried about than an explosion. And they are right to worry. When I commented on all the powder "residue" they owner mentioned that it was unburnt. When I wasn't looking he scooped up a few tablespoons worth and when we were done with the cleaning we went out to the parking lot and puddled the powder in a little heap with a one foot "trail" leading away. He lit the end of the trail with one of thoe extension lighters while hugging the ground and the trail and pile went up with a nice big flash and a satisfying WOOSH sound and a nice rolling micro mushroom cloud of smoke. So yeah, I don't blame him for worrying about an errant ember of black making it to the floor and setting off the powder there. I've seen the guys in my cowboy action events shooting black and while it's rare to see an ember make it that far it has happened. I've likely thrown a few myself shooting my Remingtons last year. But being a tad focused on the sights I didn't really notice... :D

41 Colt
March 23, 2010, 11:33 AM
One thing to keep in mind if you've read the BP fundementals sticky is that black and petroleum based oils do not go together well. You'll need to clean the gun with solvent and re-lube with vegtable or animal based oil. Or something that isn't petro based such as Ballistol.

Is Olive Oil okay? I have been lubing my BP guns with modern Outer's Gun Oil.

BCRider
March 23, 2010, 01:18 PM
Much like my using Canola I suspect that you'll be fine. I know the extra virgin oils are supposed to have a little more solids in them which is where the color and flavour comes from. Not sure if this would be a good or bad thing for our guns. But it would definetly make them taste better in a salad along with a bit of balsamic and fresh herbs.... :D But for that reason I suspect the more cheaper and generic clear olive oil would be a better choice.

Try a long term corrosion test of the olive oil where you lay some scraps of raw and oiled steel out in the sun and rain. If it's really dry in your area mist it with water a few times a day when you remember. Also watch for signs of the olive oil hardening like a varnish. I found that the canola did this after about a week or two in the hot summer sun. So for that reason I'll use it for shooting days and between shoots if I know I'll be using it again, and cleaning as a result, for anything up to around 6 weeks to 2 months. I know that the canola stayed nice and "wet" for at least that long when kept in the dark in my gun cabinet. But for more than 2 months and I'd begin to worry about it hardening up and then it's time to clean it and store for long term with Ballistol. Or if you have to use a petroleum based oil because you can't find Ballistol then be sure to clean and relube with the olive oil before your first shoot.

mesinge2
March 24, 2010, 09:45 PM
This experience has got me wanting a BP only gun.
What Blackpowder only revolver do you guys recommend?

I would prefer a cartridge gun though.

Oyeboten
March 24, 2010, 10:32 PM
Any Centerfire Revolver of any age will gladly fire Black Powder Cartridges.


.38 S&W is a Natural of course...and, .38 Special is a definite charmer, as is .44 Special, as is .45 LC...


Use Pure Lead Bullets...


And...


FPS is as good or better than general off the shelf usual now-a-days 'saami' spec Rounds...too..!


A 'win-win'..!

mesinge2
March 24, 2010, 11:27 PM
I was looking at something like this:

a Cimarron US Cavalry Model 7.5 inch in .45 Colt

118372

I love the Charcoal Blue

pikid89
March 24, 2010, 11:52 PM
get you a ruger blackhawk

mesinge2
March 25, 2010, 12:00 AM
I just looked at ruger's site. The 45 colt/acp model is the best of both worlds.

Check, new item on list!

button
March 25, 2010, 09:57 PM
I have a .44 conversion to .45 colt and was planing reloading with BP. Then a thought came to mind since I also own the .44 Bufalo pistol with brass frame and it's made for BP in the first place, would it be safe to shoot the bp cartridge in the brass frame? Loading with 30 grains of BP (which is the same load for the revolver to begin with)
Thinking about it there should not be a problem shooting the BP cartridge in the Buffalo pistol. Also on cleaning I use really hot soapy water (at least 120 degrees) and swab out the loose stuff and use a clean cloth to remove BP from around the cyclinder, then take the air hose to it to dry. Oil up afterwards. Not a problem with rust or build up and does not take very long!
Also was looking into how the Buffalo hunters use to clean there Sharpes and found out they would soak there cartidges in vinager to dissolve the BP. Could not find a time period so i experimented with a .45 colt cart. and let it set overnight. came out clean and was impressed.

BHP FAN
March 25, 2010, 10:11 PM
20 grains of BP and a wonder wad are 20 grains of BP and a wonder wad, whether or not it's in a cartridge or a cylinder chamber.The whole deal with the conversion cylinders cautions is that they're written by battalions of lawyers to protect the manufactures.obviously they are afraid some dorf is going to load up 5.5 of HP38 behind a 250 grain slug,and ruin his gun and sue R&D or Kirst,or worse yet double charge it with Bullseye and kill himself or a spectator,and that's a reasonable concern.But if I load 20 grains of BP in my own gun,knowing I'm shooting the same load,with a comparable bullet weight to what I always do am I worried? No. but each guy has to make their own informed decisions on that,and realize that it voids the warranty,and that the company [or me,by the way]are not to blame for the decision that you made.

black_powder_Rob
March 25, 2010, 10:24 PM
Button I think a conversion cylinder would stretch your buffalo frame out and I do not believe that the conversion cylinders are for those frames.

RyanM
March 25, 2010, 10:37 PM
Easiest way to tell if a conversion cylinder will stretch the frame is see if it can move back and forth in the gun any. If not, it won't stretch anything any more than the exact same load in the original cylinder. That's with the cylinders that have a back piece thingie that makes it work without any modifications to the gun.

ClemBert
March 25, 2010, 11:13 PM
This experience has got me wanting a BP only gun.
What Blackpowder only revolver do you guys recommend?

I would prefer a cartridge gun though.

I bought a Ruger Old Army to shoot blackpowder cap-n-ball style but then decided I needed a conversion cylinder too so I could shoot cartridge style.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Ruger%20Old%20Army/ROARetainingPin021-1.jpg

Now I have the option of doing both and I can do it in the same shooting session just by swapping out the cylinder. I load my own 45 Colt cartridges with 40 grains of GOEX 3Fg blackpowder to shoot through the Ruger. I also own a Taurus Judge Magnum but for that I load my 45 Colt cartridges with smokeless powder.

arcticap
March 25, 2010, 11:38 PM
With brass frame Remingtons, the wear occurs around the 2 holes in the frame that support the cylinder pin. Since brass is softer than steel the holes can become out of round much easier. That's not the same as frame stretch but can still cause cylinder play and affect cylinder alignment and timing if it gets severe. Then steel bushings would need to be installed to fix it.

Firing the cartridge case in the conversion cylinder may develop more pressure and recoil forces than a cap & ball revolver chamber would, especially if shooting heavier 250 grain bullets compared to shooting lighter projectiles.
Then there's a hotter primer which burns powder more efficiently, and the crimped bullet inside of a better sealed containment that would be contributing to generating more pressure, recoil and in turn, additional wear on the cylinder pin holes than would otherwise occur.
The difference in the rate of wear on the supporting brass may not be immediately noticeable but could be cumulative over time.
IMO it's possible that some additional wear & tear could result due to firing .45 LC loads out of the brass buffalo revolver.

button
March 26, 2010, 09:01 PM
Thanks, This seems to be a common response to all ya'll out there! :) Clembert just want to say' "NICE PEICE OF HARDWARE!"
CLEMBERT, BHP FAN, BLACKPOWDER ROB, RYAN M and ARCTICAP, Great info like always! My plans were 30 grains of Goex 3fg BP (per cylinder load in the handbook that came with the gun) with a 250 gr flat Magtech bullet using a NO. 2 1/2 large pistol & revolver primer also from Magtech. Did not think that there would be a difference between the cylinder and cartridge. Glad i asked before i jumped in! Guess the steel frame revolver (conversion) will shoot the reloads and the Buffalo will be BP cylinder (the way it was made to be). BHP Fan, no worries no blame will be givin to ya! My decision my resposability! That is why i asked! Thanks again!

button
March 26, 2010, 09:14 PM
Another question for the experts!
Playing with this idea in my mind for a couple of weeks and just want to know what ya'll think? Reloading the .45 colt and .44 Mag with BP (Goex 3fg) and a 250 grain flat bullet with some Buck shot or BB's behind it for Hunting/Home defense loads! (of course OUTSIDE Home defense) You know for Coyotes, Hogs, Neighborhood Drug dealer who strays onto my property! Am I CRAZY or have I been watching too many Spaghetti Westerns? Sometimes I wish we still had western justice now a days! :)

EnsignJimmy
April 1, 2010, 02:48 PM
Another question for the experts!
Playing with this idea in my mind for a couple of weeks and just want to know what ya'll think? Reloading the .45 colt and .44 Mag with BP (Goex 3fg) and a 250 grain flat bullet with some Buck shot or BB's behind it for Hunting/Home defense loads! (of course OUTSIDE Home defense) You know for Coyotes, Hogs, Neighborhood Drug dealer who strays onto my property! Am I CRAZY or have I been watching too many Spaghetti Westerns? Sometimes I wish we still had western justice now a days! :)
A 250 grain bullet parked on top of 35 grains of black will produce something like 940 ft/sec out of a 5.25" barrel in the .45 Colt. The .44 Magnum will hold about five fewer grains, and will produce lower velocities as a result. You don't need to attempt anything screwy, like putting other projectiles behind the first bullet . . . as the bullet will already cleanly ventilate everything you've listed above.

Foto Joe
April 2, 2010, 11:04 AM
Since my wife got me hooked on this Christmas day by giving me a '51 Conf. Navy from Cabelas I've started to rethink my priorities in life. One of which is why other than cleanliness would a person wish to shoot smokeless out of a BP cartridge, i.e. 45LC.

30 years ago I bought a Dakota Colt Buntline Special with a 12" barrel for coyote hunting. Pretty gun, shoots well enough but haven't put more than 200 rounds through it after giving up on dog hunting 25 years ago. But now that I've gotten bit by the black, I'm given' serious thought to loading 45LC in black powder when I get back to Wyoming in a month or so.

My reasoning is that Colt didn't have smokeless when the 45LC was put into production and that cartridge just wouldn't be happy unless it spits a few feet of flame and smoke out the barrel.

My question is: 2f or 3f and what really was the powder charge in a 45LC? Can somebody point me to the load data? I'm sure it's posted here somewhere but when it comes to reloading black powder it seems like the manufacturers have basically written us off.

ClemBert
April 2, 2010, 11:15 AM
Blackpowder cartridge reloading generally depends on the caliber with which you plan to load. Smaller than .45 then 2Fg. Larger than .45 then 3Fg. Basically, you are on the fence. You could use either one and I've read some folks use 2Fg and some 3Fg. Personally, I use 3Fg since that is what I had on hand anyways for cap-n-ball shooting. Something tells me that most folk lean 3Fg but I'm not 100% positive on that. Anyhow, me likes both 35 grains and 40 grains of 3Fg BP, then a 0.30 fiber wad, then a 250 grain RNFP bullet with Crisco/Beeswas lube in the groove. Use a compression plug for sure with 40 grain loads but the plug is handy for 35 grains too but not mandatory.

p.s. With that longer 12" barrel you are probably gonna want to go with 3Fg. I shoot my .45 Colts out of a 7 1/2" barreled ROA.

RyanM
April 2, 2010, 11:17 AM
One of which is why other than cleanliness would a person wish to shoot smokeless out of a BP cartridge, i.e. 45LC.

If you're sticking to the same "power" as BP ammo, cleanliness is the only reason.

If you read up on Dick Casull, though, looks like "insanity" is another reason. :p

Goex has load data. They seem to recommend their "cartridge FFg" for all cartridges. Not sure what makes that any different from regular FFg.

http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html

In .45 Colt, a 247 gr bullet with 42 gr powder, or 255 gr bullet with 40 gr. From the velocities, it looks like they chronoed with a 4-5/8" barrel.

EnsignJimmy
April 2, 2010, 12:12 PM
If you're sticking to the same "power" as BP ammo, cleanliness is the only reason.

If you read up on Dick Casull, though, looks like "insanity" is another reason. :p

Goex has load data. They seem to recommend their "cartridge FFg" for all cartridges. Not sure what makes that any different from regular FFg.

http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html

In .45 Colt, a 247 gr bullet with 42 gr powder, or 255 gr bullet with 40 gr. From the velocities, it looks like they chronoed with a 4-5/8" barrel.
They're also using 2F powder, which uses larger (slower-burning) grains. Forty grains of 2F (measured by volume) has a lot of airspace between those grains. Their load data will give you a pleasant, low-recoil "Cowboy Action" style load. To get the thunder and lightning the .45 Colt is capable of, you need to use 3F powder, which has smaller grains. However, the full-house BP .45 Colt does have surprisingly brisk recoil, especially in a relatively (compared to, say, a Ruger) lightweight gun like a Colt SAA.

TheRodDoc
April 2, 2010, 12:48 PM
ClemBert,

You have that backwards.
45 and smaller use 3fg. 45 and larger use 2fg.

ClemBert
April 2, 2010, 12:53 PM
TheRodDoc...I always was kind of backwards....I suspect I'm dislectic when writing rather than reading.

RyanM
April 2, 2010, 12:53 PM
They're also using 2F powder, which uses larger (slower-burning) grains. Forty grains of 2F (measured by volume) has a lot of airspace between those grains.

Not necessarily. Actually, fancy schmancy scientists have determined that spheres of any size will pack about 62.5%. Meaning if you dump a bunch of BBs or something in a container and pack it down as best as you can, you'll end up with a container of about 62.5% bbs and 37.5% air, no matter what the size of the BB is. The only place where size comes into play is at the edges, where the BBs touch the sides and bottom and top of the container.

BP grains aren't even close to spherical, of course. But even so, the difference in weight of a given volume charge of BP is very small, especially if you use a very tall powder trickler. And that difference all occurs at the edges of the container, not in the middle where 99% of the powder is.

The main difference between grain sizes is the area-to-volume ratio. Smaller grains have a higher ratio, and thus burn faster. The square-cube law is a big pain, but at least it's the reason why we don't have 2 foot long cockroaches!

goon
April 2, 2010, 05:56 PM
Button - I don't know about cleaning with vinegar but just to be clear, it is weak acid. If you clean a gun with it make sure you get all the vinegar off really well.
I've used it to put an artificial patina on things before and it WILL cause rust, no question about it.

Savvy Jack
April 4, 2010, 12:46 PM
Cleaning is easy with BP once you get set. Clean a smokeless gun to completely remove any petroleum based oils. Then use Ballistal full or mixed with water. I use 50/50 with initial cleaning then full for last coat. After a shoot I rinse in the sink, when the wife ain't home, or with a water hose if she is home. The I clean the bore with 50/50 or even submerge in a container filled with 50/50 mix. Blow off with air hose, swab barrel and wipe clean. Spray on light coat of full mixture Ballitol...DONE. After a shoot I place empty shells in a container with water. When I get home I pure in dish washing soap, let sit for 10 minutes, rinse, dry, tumble and reload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx-biisbdIg

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