Newbie question - close slide by racking or by pressing slide stop


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duns
February 28, 2010, 09:14 PM
The first time I held a gun was only a little over a month ago. I have a very elementary question relating to the two autoloaders I have bought - Beretta 92FS and Walther P99C. The instruction booklets for both say that after inserting a new magazine with the slide open you should press down on the slide stop to close the slide. When I had a shooting lesson, my instructor told me that this was bad practice and I should rack the slide to close it -- but I forgot to ask him why. Is there a best way to do it? And what is the reason?

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LeontheProfessional
February 28, 2010, 09:24 PM
I have heard instructors reasoning on it and it is all tactical. They say you should do it because under stress you may not be able to find the release with your thumb.

Mad Magyar
February 28, 2010, 09:42 PM
you should press down on the slide stop to close the slide.
I prefer this way for a quicker edge if you're in a spot...If not in a hurry, a sling-shot rack is equally fine...BTW, there is no evidence that using the slide or stop release (whatever you want to call it) in anyway causes undue wear.

Tilos
February 28, 2010, 10:38 PM
Or both.
Or one or the other, depending in which gun we are talking about.
What does the manufacturer call it in the manual?

Tilos

NG VI
February 28, 2010, 10:42 PM
Either way, I am tending towards the slingshot method more now, but either works.

duns
February 28, 2010, 10:45 PM
Thanks Leon for pointing out my instructor's probable reasoning. Thanks Magyar for advising that it makes no difference to the wear on the weapon. I'll just do what seems more natural for me: at the moment that's pushing the slide stop/release but maybe that will change later. Seems it's no big deal either way.

LeontheProfessional
February 28, 2010, 10:50 PM
Thanks Leon for pointing out my instructor's probable reasoning. Thanks Magyar for advising that it makes no difference to the wear on the weapon. I'll just do what seems more natural for me: at the moment that's pushing the slide stop/release but maybe that will change later. Seems it's no big deal either way.
Right on. The best thing to do is practice and learn to be efficient with it.

gc70
February 28, 2010, 10:53 PM
Sometimes I do it one way and sometimes the other.

With my HK P7, I don't do either. :eek:

Redneck with a 40
February 28, 2010, 10:57 PM
I'm in the habit of just pressing the slide release.

SOCO
February 28, 2010, 11:27 PM
I have heard instructors reasoning on it and it is all tactical. They say you should do it because under stress you may not be able to find the release with your thumb.
My CHL instructor said the same thing. Before the class, I'd always used the slide release. On the range that day, I tried his method and I found it much easier/faster. I now practice this way exclusively.

Blind Bat
February 28, 2010, 11:38 PM
Racking the slide is the "tactically" correct way to release the slide. I prefer to slam the mag into the bottom of the gun and let physics drop the slide. ;)

huntsman
February 28, 2010, 11:48 PM
The instruction booklets for both say that after inserting a new magazine with the slide open you should press down on the slide stop to close the slide.

This seems to be the answer but If I were you I'd practice both ways.

Gunfighter123
February 28, 2010, 11:51 PM
If I shoot the gun dry , then I ALWAYS use the slide stop. It IS QUICKER --- don't think so , show me where any experienced Action/Combat competitor will rack the slide instead of useing the slide stop.

I have heard instructors reasoning on it and it is all tactical. They say you should do it because under stress you may not be able to find the release with your thumb.

Sillyness ---- tactical smackical --- some of the same "instructors" will tell you to practice "tactical" reloads where you retain the empty/low mags in case you need to fill it later !!!! And if you can't find your slide stop "under stress" how in Gods Name are you finding your extra mag and finding the "hole" in your gun to put it into ???

gwlammers
February 28, 2010, 11:56 PM
I have been told that using the slide release can cause wear (since it is metal on metal) to a point where the slide stop may stop working. If you pull back on the slide after inserting a full mag, the slide stop will move down and out of the way so when you let go there will be no metal wear.

Drail
March 1, 2010, 12:05 AM
Be aware that pulling the slide back to release the stop MAY work on SOME guns but will not release it on many guns. The slide stop will release it on every gun. It was put there for that reason and that purpose. As far as professional combat competitors goes, they will never shoot the gun until empty. That is a beginners mistake. A lot of instructors seem to be teaching the slingshot release these days. Don't pay any attention to them. They think they are being tactical and they are misinformed. As far as wear on the slide stop goes, that is ridiculous. If that happens it's because the parts have bad heat treatment, not because you used them as designed.

David E
March 1, 2010, 12:36 AM
There are 3 ways to intentionally cause the slide to go forward following a reload:

1) Slingshot - pinching the rear of the slide between thumb and forefinger, palm down, pulling it fully to the rear and releasing the slide, to go forward on its own power.

2) Overhand - palm of support hand on top rear of slide, thumb pointing to chest. Grasp the slide, pulling it fully to the rear and release the slide.

3) Slide stop activation - upon seating the loaded mag, a right handed shooter uses the left thumb to activate the slide stop while you are pushing the gun back out to the shooting position.

Many people say "slingshot" when they mean "over hand." Or maybe they don't. Regardless, the sling shot method is the least reliable. As far as serious use, the "slingshot" method doesn't belong in your tool set.

The Overhand method is reliable and nearly duplicates the actions used in clearing some jams. Learning one basic move to cover two different areas of gunhandling saves time to teach and learn while being easier to remember under stress.

The slide stop method is NOT difficult to do. Those that say you can't hit the slide stop under stress conveniently forget that you managed to find the mag release just fine, so it's really a non-issue as far as that argument goes.

The negatives for the slingshot and overhand method is two fold: 1) It does not take into account that if the gun has a Shok-buff installed, the slide may not be able to be pulled back far enough to disengage the slide stop. 2) It's slower for the first shot following the reload.

You can make sure that your guns don't have a Shok-Buff, but not one you may have to pick up that doesn't belong to to (say, a fallen cop's gun) that you have to end the fight with. Yes, that's a far-fetched scenario, so that leaves #2

The problem with the slide stop activation is that some guns don't have one. (Like a Walther PPK) or are so miniscule as to be pointless. (Most Glocks) For me, I won't be packing a PPK and my Glocks have the factory extended slide stop installed. Chances of having to do a "battlefield pickup" in real life is moot. The slide stop activation remains the faster way to do it.

That said, the wise learn BOTH the Overhand and Slidestop method. Sometimes, one works better than the other.

tack
March 1, 2010, 01:02 AM
Rack-
If you get a failure to feed, you will rack the slide with your weak side hand by grabbing the top rear of the slide. Releasing the slide this way means you are using the same motion with slide release for a new magazine and for clearing a failure to feed. This keeps it simple.

Release-
After a magazine change, I find using the slide release with my weak side thumb is faster. This method keeps both hands on the grip as I extend my arms.

Practice-
Practicing the motion will make both methods smooth and fast. Do your dry fire and jam/clearance homework with snap caps. You will come to enjoy it and the motions become automatic with practice.

Most Important-
Have fun!
Tack

9mmepiphany
March 1, 2010, 01:43 AM
my usual answer is to rack the slide using the overhand method and that it is a slide stop, not a slide release...however there are always exceptions

1. the obvious one is when the manufacturer advises otherwise. during classes we always teach the overhand method except for Berettas, because the overhand method actives the de-cocker/safety...not a good thing
2. when attachments on the pistol prevent it's use...as in IPSC pistols with their mounted optics

i have proven to myself that the overhand release of the slide is not slower to the next shot than using a slide stop...it's not faster, but it isn't slower. it's much like the old belief that certain trigger actions were faster to the first shot, they proved, back in the 70's, that all actions were of equal speed to a aimed first shot...the exception were fast draw practitioners fanning their wax bullet firing aluminum barreled guns.

the advantage of the overhand method is that it is usable over all styles of semi-auto pistols...even without a working thumb.

side bar: the original Glocks were not designed to have their slides released with the slide stop and the metal of the slide was not hardened for that kind of abuse. they changed their metal treatment and offered elongated slide stops in the american market because they were getting accelerated wear of their slides from users insisting on releasing the slide using the stop

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 01:57 AM
i have proven to myself that the overhand release of the slide is not slower to the next shot than using a slide stop...it's not faster, but it isn't slower. it's much like the old belief that certain trigger actions were faster to the first shot, they proved, back in the 70's, that all actions were of equal speed to a aimed first shot...the exception were fast draw practitioners fanning their wax bullet firing aluminum barreled guns.


I am not trying to be a "wise acre" but may I ask ; did you use a electronic timer to prove this ?? Your reloading hand has to travel farther with the "overhand" release then if you are useing most slide stops/releases with your reloading hand. If you are useing your "strong hand" thumb for the slide stop , it is even faster, IHMO.

Fremmer
March 1, 2010, 02:08 AM
The sling shot is fun and looks cool. (And fun and looking cool are very important.)

sidheshooter
March 1, 2010, 02:12 AM
As an aside, Kahr manuals specifically state to use the slide lock lever to release the slide (evidently, the opposite of Glocks).

Again, this is a big fat "FWIW"...

9mmepiphany
March 1, 2010, 02:14 AM
we timed it during a class. it was taught by a USPSA Grand Master who demonstrated the correct technique. it was timed from last shot, through the reload to the next shot...both shots were "A" zone hits at about 15 yards

the time to your next shot isn't determined by how fast you close the slide, it is determined by how fast you can extend you gun and reacquire your front sight...your strong hand doesn't stop driving forward, the support hand has to catch up

9mmepiphany
March 1, 2010, 02:20 AM
Kahr manuals specifically state to use the slide lock lever to release the slide
this is true, i recently proved it to myself with my new Kahr CW9

it has to do with the short grip and that many users can not keep from letting the gun rock backward while racking the slide. the Kahr needs all the slide travel/spring pressure to chamber the round of the magazine when new...it loosens up after a couple of hundred rounds.

FWIW: the overhand slide release works with the Kahr if the shooting hand is driving the gun forward as you grab the slide. it just doesn't work when the gun is static

Boats
March 1, 2010, 02:21 AM
"The overhand method works with every semiautomatic gun."

What other pistol than yours will you be fighting a running gun battle with that requires a reload?

I use the slide release on pistols that offer up a useable one and overhand where the designer has forced me into it by providing some administrative handling nubbins. I got turned off of overhand after seeing a few people training at speed with it pinch their pinkies in the ejection port for forgetting to let go. So much for "easier under stress."

In my travels, people who vapor lock under stress cannot really be helped. Some people are the "deer in the headlights" no matter what you do to try and alleviate it. Saw it at firefighting and flooding schools in the Navy. Saw it stress training with cops not shooting at a video threat. Some people are destined to cock it up regardless of training.

The slide release is faster and if you do your part in changing your recoil spring every so often, will likely never have a feed problem using it.

David E
March 1, 2010, 02:26 AM
i have proven to myself that the overhand release of the slide is not slower to the next shot than using a slide stop...it's not faster, but it isn't slower.

we timed it during a class. it was taught by a USPSA Grand Master who demonstrated the correct technique. it was timed from last shot, through the reload to the next shot...both shots were "A" zone hits at about 15 yards

I don't know who the GM was, but perhaps you could describe his "correct" technique. MY technique has you starting to push the gun out as soon as the fresh mag is seated. Since both hands are moving together at the same speed, it is stable, smoother and more consistent than making the weak hand catch up.

9mmepiphany
March 1, 2010, 02:50 AM
i'm sure it is much the same technique, it is just that the loading hand continues over the top, grabs the slide and circles back under to re-establish it's grip.

i'm not arguing that the use of the slide stop isn't easier...i'm just saying that the overhand doesn't give up speed between aimed shots

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 11:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVGQQhkjzec

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 11:35 AM
show me where any experienced Action/Combat competitor will rack the slide instead of useing the slide stop.
Show me where any guy that gets paid to kill people uses the slide stop.
Sillyness ---- tactical smackical --- some of the same "instructors" will tell you to practice "tactical" reloads where you retain the empty/low mags in case you need to fill it later !!!! And if you can't find your slide stop "under stress" how in Gods Name are you finding your extra mag and finding the "hole" in your gun to put it into ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbUgANV_yL4

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 11:36 AM
Be aware that pulling the slide back to release the stop MAY work on SOME guns but will not release it on many guns. The slide stop will release it on every gun.
Wrong.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 11:42 AM
What other pistol than yours will you be fighting a running gun battle with that requires a reload?
Believing the fight is going to go the way you want it to is a losers mindset. There are many situations where you could be using a different/captured handgun.

Topspeed
March 1, 2010, 11:50 AM
I use the slide stop. It has always worked well for me.

Ben86
March 1, 2010, 11:51 AM
Done properly they both work fine. However if you use the slingshot method you must be sure to pull the slide back ALL the way and then release it. Don't help it forward. It took so long to get my wife to stop that I almost told her to just use the slide release instead.

I prefer the slingshot method, it just feels more positive to me. It also doesn't increase wear on the slide release.

mgmorden
March 1, 2010, 12:02 PM
When I can, I'll use the slide release lever. Works fine. That said, My CZ-52's lever has no handle on it, so you have to pull back the slide. I once had an 1911 whose slide stop locked back so tight that you couldn't release the slide with your thumb - the pressure had to come off of that thing for it to work. Had to rack slide for that one too.

There might be some merit in learning to just always rack the slide since some guns need it and it always works, but just personally I've gotten pretty used to which of mine will work which ways.

duns
March 1, 2010, 12:03 PM
I thought my question was going to have a simple answer. I didn't realize there were so many factors to consider in deciding which method to use. From all the tips, I am now thinking as follows:


I need to practice with both the slide release and with the overhand method so that I'm comfortable with both methods.
Since the makers of both my pistols recommend using the slide release, that should be my preferred method in a gun fight if I'm using my own gun.
In the unlikely event I was using someone else's gun in a fight, I should use the overhand method rather than hunting around for a slide release that might not exist or be too small to be useful.

shockwave
March 1, 2010, 12:11 PM
The Overhand method is reliable and nearly duplicates the actions used in clearing some jams. Learning one basic move to cover two different areas of gunhandling saves time to teach and learn while being easier to remember under stress.

The Israelis favor a kind of overhand method where you push the pistol toward the target while pulling the slide back (or holding it in place until racked). By the time the muzzle is on target you're ready to fire. Because this action would be identical to the situation where you had to rack the slide to feed an empty chamber, it's one movement that applies to two cases. If you add in jam clearing, that's three. I was practicing this with a Glock and found it very smooth and natural.

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 12:26 PM
Reaper stated;
Show me where any guy that gets paid to kill people uses the slide stop.

Watch or talk with most anyone in the Military {guys who get paid to kill} and ask if they used the slide/BOLT stop or pulled the "slide"/chargeing handle after inserting a new mag into a EMPTY rifle/pistol. I can post video after video showing most use the bolt/slide release.

And BTW , LEOs and civillians DO NOT "get paid to kill" .


Reaper --- I DID watch the vid you posted a link to ---- at around 3:55 , Clint states that , more or less -- " the rounds in the gun are more important then those on the ground or in your pocket" -------- MY POINT EXACTLY

The FASTER you get the gun back to fully loaded , the better. I see/like where Clint "scans" looking for more threats before doing ANY reload ---- but I ask this ;
I do a "ipsc/non-tactical" reload and dump the empty/low mag on the ground ---- if the threat is truely over --- there is PLENTY OF TIME to pick up the mag I speed dumped on the ground. Again , and Clint does agree ---- The FASTER you get the gun back to fully loaded , the better.

Shawn Dodson
March 1, 2010, 12:28 PM
Kahr manuals specifically state to use the slide lock lever to release the slide I have a PM9. I never touch the slide lock except to lock open the slide. I operate the slide (retract and release) using the overhand method to load, unload, and when clearing stoppages. Yes, there are times when the slide doesn't go all the way into battery. A simple strike to the rear of the slide, with the heel of the support hand, drives it into battery.

The Kahr manual recommendation is Kahr management's inexpensive documentation "fix" to a hardware design flaw. If the slide doesn't reliably go into battery except when the slide lock is released then the slide cannot be relied upon to go into battery when Tap, Roll & Rack is performed, or when a new magazine is installed after clearing a doublefeed stoppage. Kahr's recommendation to release the slide lock on an open slide is not a gunfight oriented technique. It is flawed advice that can get the operator killed during a gunfight if he/she has to work the slide to clear a stoppage.

As I previously said, I NEVER manually release the slide lock. I grasp the slide using the overhand method and retract and release. I operate the slide lock ONLY to lock the slide open, either to unload or to clear a doublefeed stoppage. That's it.

I load my weapons with the slide/bolt closed to condition myself to the extra effort required to fully seat a magazine while performing a combat reload during a gunfight if the slide/bolt is not locked open. I forcefully seat the magazine and then roll & rack to chamber.

By always retracting and releasing the slide I exercise and reinforce common movements I use to clear stoppages. Tap, Roll & Rack is an ingrained conditioned reaction. It minimizes decision-making I have to do (Am I performing tap, roll & rack to clear a defective cartridge, seat an unseated magazine, clear a stovepipe? Am I performing a combat reload? Am I clearing a doublefeed? Do I release the slide lock or do I retract and release the slide?). The practice minimizes my mental load so my brain is free to monitor my external environment and work tactical problems instead of focusing internally on diagnosing my weapon.

If the slide goes into battery during a combat reload, I still Tap, Roll & Rack, and drive on. I just do it without thought as a conditioned response. There's no mental pause as I orient to an unexpected situation, I just move with a purpose.

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 12:44 PM
it is just that the loading hand continues over the top, grabs the slide and circles back under to re-establish it's grip.


And again I state --- there is more distance to that method then useing the reloading hand to hit the slide stop or strong hand thumb ---- if the gun if kept{and should be} at AROUND eye level dureing the reload , when my reloading hand is done inserting the new mag , there is less then 2 INCHES of distance for that hands thumb to push the slide stop down. With the "overhand" method , after the reloading hand inserts the new mag , it must then go over the top of slide , pull back rear of slide , and then go back around to the "grip" area ---- I have just tried this a few times --- I get around 8 INCHES of movement time after time. More movement equals more time -- Newtons Law etc.

Useing the slide stop/release is faster ---- by how much ??? Maybe as little as 1/10 or 1/100th of a second. MANY IPSC Matches and Gunfights are won in that micro-second.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 12:46 PM
Reaper --- I DID watch the vid you posted a link to ---- at around 3:55 , Clint states that , more or less -- " the rounds in the gun are more important then those on the ground or in your pocket" -------- MY POINT EXACTLY
I was agreeing with you on the tac load.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 12:52 PM
Watch or talk with most anyone in the Military {guys who get paid to kill} and ask if they used the slide/BOLT stop or pulled the "slide"/chargeing handle after inserting a new mag into a EMPTY rifle/pistol. I can post video after video showing most use the bolt/slide release.
1)We are not discussing rifles. However, running the charging handle is the preferred/only method used on many rifles/carbines/SMG's/PDW's.

2)Most people in the military get little to no handgun training. I was mainly referring to SF/PMC.

cottonmouth
March 1, 2010, 12:57 PM
I use the slide release, on a pistol with a slide mounted safety like a Beretta 92 couldn't you run the risk of placing the weapon on safe/decock?

J.B.

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 01:18 PM
I was agreeing with you on the tac load.

Reaper ---- My bad , I'm sorry for mis-understanding you on that point.
And Thank You for keeping this discussion civil ---- I find it "fun" to debate with others here on THR and always am thankfull when it stays "civil".

Take care --GF123

rcmodel
March 1, 2010, 01:33 PM
To be perfectly "Tactical" in every situation, you should learn to use the slide stop or slide release with one hand.

Just in case your "non-tactical" opponent has already shot you in the left arm and rendered it useless to do the two-hand, over-hand, tackycool reload.

rc

Shawn Dodson
March 1, 2010, 02:09 PM
Just in case your "non-tactical" opponent has already shot you in the left arm and rendered it useless to do the two-hand, over-hand, tackycool reload. When forced to use one hand, it doesn't matter strong or weak hand, I snag the rear sight on my belt (or other suitable object) and press forward on the slide to retract and release the slide. I still operate the slide lock to lock open the slide only.

mljdeckard
March 1, 2010, 02:31 PM
The slide stop isn't 'incorrect', but it's better to pull the slide. The idea is consistency, that you will always do it the same way, rather than have various processes you will use in different situations. To clear malfunctions, you rack the slide. You don't need to split your processes, for malfs I'll rack the slide, but for reloads I'll use the slide stop. It's all about keeping plans for emergencies simple.

I find myself using the slide stop when I manually opened the action with the slide stop. For example, my .22 conversion slide does not automatically lock open when it's empty. So if I lock it open before reloading, I use the slide stop to drop it. Just an idiosyncracy.

Strahley
March 1, 2010, 02:54 PM
I use the lever on all of mine. Most factory Glocks suck for this (save for the 34/35), but with the Glock extended lever it's very easy to use

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 03:02 PM
I agree with MJ about "consistency" and thats why in my very first post I stated " when I shoot my gun empty , I ALWAYS use the slide stop" etc.

While on the subject {sorta -- LOL} , the Tap,Rack ,Dump Drill for malfunctions is very good to know but it IS NOT a absolute as some Instructors will tell you. Example;
your shooting, Bang,Bang,nothing --- you give the rear of the slide a hard Tap to seat the slide all the way to full battery -- Great in Theory but I've had it happen many times {usually with reloaded ammo} the hard Tap just drives the swollen/over size base of the round DEEPER into the chamber and now you need two hands and a mule to get the slide back !!!

My point being ---- there really are few Absolute / Every Time / My Way or No Way rules for many things in shooting and a good Instructor will tell/show you other "ways" besides just their own or because "someone famous" said so --- one should try to keep a open mind to new or different ideas.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 03:07 PM
While on the subject {sorta -- LOL} , the Tap,Rack ,Dump Drill for malfunctions is very good to know but it IS NOT a absolute as some Instructors will tell you. Example;
your shooting, Bang,Bang,nothing --- you give the rear of the slide a hard Tap to seat the slide all the way to full battery -- Great in Theory but I've had it happen many times {usually with reloaded ammo} the hard Tap just drives the swollen/over size base of the round DEEPER into the chamber and now you need two hands and a mule to get the slide back !!!
You're doing it wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

Boats
March 1, 2010, 03:10 PM
Believing the fight is going to go the way you want it to is a losers mindset. There are many situations where you could be using a different/captured handgun.

Oh please detail the "winner's mindset" and provide the many examples where one might use a "different/captured handgun."

My bet is that it will be indistinguishable from common paranoia.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 03:17 PM
Oh please detail the "winner's mindset" and provide the many examples where one might use a "different/captured handgun."

My bet is that it will be indistinguishable from common paranoia.
http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_thinking.gif

Shawn Dodson
March 1, 2010, 03:23 PM
Tap:
Briskly strike magazine baseplate with heel of support hand.

Roll & Rack:
Grasp slide using overhand method. Roll pistol in direction of ejection port and simultaneously retract and release slide.

The purpose of rolling the pistol is to use centrifugal force and gravity to help clear the action.

Retract the slide forcefully, like you’re trying to rip it off the frame. (You can also push forward with your firing hand at the same time.) When the slide reaches its rear most travel it will slip out the grasp of your support hand and go into battery.

BluesDancer
March 1, 2010, 03:29 PM
I use the slide release, on a pistol with a slide mounted safety like a Beretta 92 couldn't you run the risk of placing the weapon on safe/decock?

I slingshot my Beretta M9, but I do understand what you're saying. I just try to make it work, and it does.

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 03:32 PM
You're doing it wrong. Same thing my wife said about sex !!!!

I agree with ya Reaper --- that is a good drill to learn -- not EXACTLLY the same way we were taught in the 1970s --- gun craft will always be evolveing and improveing -- some "big name" instructors did in fact tell people to "hard tap" a slide that does not go completely into battery just a few years ago.

I just posted a {not quite correct} example of something --- my main point being to keep a open mind and not be a drone/slave --- I think you would agree with that.

Dimis
March 1, 2010, 03:35 PM
i may be talking out my rear here but why not learn both... i mean shouldnt you know your weapon better than anyone and be able to instinctivly do any of these motions when called upon?

i agree with RC about slide stops and injured support arms/hands

same goes for the belt technique shawn described

personaly i practice as much of these as possable so when one idea fails i have a backup plan or two maybe even three

in an ideal world i would just simply use the slide release but not every guns slide release is "easy" to operate ive handled alot of guns that took alot of pressure to force it down but instead of doing that i have the choise of "racking" the slide (i personaly dont care which method you use for that slingshot,overhand whatever works for you) or i can pull the slide back enough to operate the stop as long as ive drilled these motions in my head i can get the gun back up and running

as for tactical reloads ive never heard an instructer tell anyone to reload anything unless it was safe for them to do so which means the imediate threat is gone or your behind cover and can reload
it really is best in a "tactical"(and i hate useing that word) situation to be at full or as close to full capacity as you can be its just the smart thing to do

Boats
March 1, 2010, 03:36 PM
Reaper responds in crayon

C'mon REAPER, give us the goods. There may even be some treatment concepts for a Hollywood blockbuster in there.

Detail coming into sudden possession of another pistol, different from your own, or those of your own force, and its spare magazines, in the middle of a gun fight, where you absolutely must overhand it RFN.

Better yet, detail for the readers the capturing of such a weapon and its magazines from the enemy in the heat of battle Mr. Bauer.

JohnKSa
March 1, 2010, 03:43 PM
Be aware that pulling the slide back to release the stop MAY work on SOME guns but will not release it on many guns. The slide stop will release it on every gun.Which guns will not go into battery if a locked back slide is racked on a full magazine?

Can you explain how the slide stop/release will release the slide on a Walther PPK, a Kel-Tec P32 or a CZ-52?

For what it's worth, sling-shotting the slide seems to be a slightly more reliable technique than using the slide stop/release. You get a tiny bit more slide travel and therefore more spring compression and more forward force to strip the round from the magazine and put the gun into battery.

9mmepiphany
March 1, 2010, 03:46 PM
posted by Gunfighter123:
you give the rear of the slide a hard Tap to seat the slide all the way to full battery
you're Tapping the wrong part, you should be tapping the bottom of the mag. if you are actively engaged, any round that doesn't go off when you pull the trigger is useless. although there is a school of thought that most modern ammo is of such high quality that a 2nd hammer fall will ignite it...it has been my experience that most folks who don't get idnition when they drop the hammer will pull the trigger again before going to tap & rack anyway

posted by Gunfighter123:
More movement equals more time -- Newtons Law etc.
i'll repeat...it isn't the distance the reloading hand travels that determines the "quickness" of the next shot

posted byShawn Dodson:
When forced to use one hand, it doesn't matter strong or weak hand, I snag the rear sight on my belt (or other suitable object) and press forward on the slide to retract and release the slide. I still operate the slide lock to lock open the slide only.
this is something i also do and it is a good skill to practice. it puts you at a disadvantage when you choose to put Novak style rear sights on a fighting gun

posted by mijdeckard:
I find myself using the slide stop when I manually opened the action with the slide stop. For example, my .22 conversion slide does not automatically lock open when it's empty. So if I lock it open before reloading, I use the slide stop to drop it. Just an idiosyncracy.
i have the same idiosyncracy with my .22 conversion unit, i figure it was because of the adjustable rear sight

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 03:47 PM
my main point being to keep a open mind and not be a drone/slave --- I think you would agree with that.
Yep.

Shawn Dodson
March 1, 2010, 03:52 PM
Clearing stoppages (failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to extract, failure to eject):

1. Misfire
2. Finger off trigger
3. Tap, roll & rack
4. Recover/Assess: Reengage?
5. Misfire
6. Finger off trigger
7. Obtain fresh magazine from carrier
8. Jettison “depleted” magazine
a. If “depleted” magazine is stuck
b. Put fresh magazine between ring and pinky fingers
c. Retract and lock slide
d. Forcibly remove and discard “depleted” magazine
e. Roll & rack, rack, rack
f. Retrieve fresh magazine from ring & pinky fingers
9. Install & seat magazine
10. Roll & rack
11. Recover/Assess: Reengage?

Steps 1-4 clear failure to feed, failure to fire and failure to eject (in most cases)

If steps 1-4 fail to get the gun running then you immediately perform a Combat Reload, steps 5-8 and 9-11.

If you cannot insert the fresh magazine because the "depleted" magazine did not jettison, steps 8a-8f clear a doublefeed, which jams the magazine in place. When the doublefeed is cleared, you simply continue and complete your Combat Reload (steps 9-11).

You simply progress through the procedure until you get the gun back up and running.

This is why I "retract and release." Manually releasing the slide lock would add complexity to my routine.

EddieNFL
March 1, 2010, 04:34 PM
Has it been a month already?

Drail
March 1, 2010, 05:15 PM
I think there is some confusion here, some of you are talking about reloading an empty gun with the slide forward and some of you are talking about releasing the slide to go forward on a gun that is locked back. I was talking about releasing a locked back slide. I have 2 SA 1911s in front of me right now and neither of them will release from slide lock by pulling the slide back a little more. JohnKSa, I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. I didn't mean they "would not go into battery", rather they would remain locked back if the slide stop was not depressed and a "slingshot release" method was employed because that action will not cause the slide stop to release the slide.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 05:17 PM
I have 2 SA 1911s in front of me right now and neither of them will release from slide lock by pulling the slide back a little more.
Have you removed the depleted magazine?

JohnKSa
March 1, 2010, 05:19 PM
I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. I didn't mean they "would not go into battery", rather they would remain locked back if the slide stop was not depressed and a "slingshot release" method was employed because that action will not cause the slide stop to release the slide.No, I understand what you mean. Semi-auto centerfire pistols can be taken out of slide lock by pulling back on the slide and releasing it as long as the slide stop/release is not being pressed upward and as long as an empty magazine is not in place. I have 2 SA 1911s in front of me right now and neither of them will release from slide lock by pulling the slide back a little more.Assuming that there is no magazine inplace or there is a full magazine in place then the guns are defective if the slide won't release from slide lock by pulling the slide all the way back and releasing it.

9mmepiphany
March 1, 2010, 05:58 PM
Assuming that there is no magazine inplace or there is a full magazine in place then the guns are defective if the slide won't release from slide lock by pulling the slide all the way back and releasing it.
that's my first thought too

you need to have that looked at and corrected

The Lone Haranguer
March 1, 2010, 07:23 PM
I prefer to press the slide stop. There is no guarantee that you will have both hands available.

JohnKSa
March 1, 2010, 07:57 PM
If you need to operate the gun one handed you can still do it one of two ways. You can rack it one-handed by hooking the rear sight on your belt or another convenient edge or you can drop the slide using the slide stop/release.

The advantage to practicing the one-handed slide rack is that the technique also allows you to clear stoppages one-handed too.

The fact that I advocate using the slide rack technique for charging/reloading doesn't mean I take the slide stops/releases off my guns. It just means that I only use them to lock the slide open or as a contingency solution for dropping the slide when other methods don't make sense or aren't possible.

bad4dr
March 1, 2010, 08:06 PM
Sounds like there's points aplenty for both methods, but I'll add mine.

I was taught to use the overhand method when reloading because it doesn't rely on fine motor skills like using the thumb to depress the slide release does. And in a panic situation, fine motor skills go right out the window.

That being said, I still sometimes use the slide release at the range. However, I'm trying to break myself of that habit.

RobMoore
March 1, 2010, 08:09 PM
Any task you perform with your fingers is a fine motor skill, to include grabbing a slide.

I see more people screw up the slingshot than anything else.
Next would be the release with the weak thumb, then overhand, and finally the release with the strong hand thumb. This is the most consistent I see because the thumb is already there. Unless the gun is new, and the release stiff, thumbing it doesn't take any thought.

Its something I do automatically the moment the magazine is seated, before the heel of my weak hand even comes off the basepad.

People who have trouble with it are the ones who are trying to look for it after they've seated the mag, when they should have already had their thumb on it.

bad4dr
March 1, 2010, 09:17 PM
"Any task you perform with your fingers is a fine motor skill, to include grabbing a slide."

Not necessarily. If this was the case, the act of merely holding a gun would be a fine motor skill. If done properly, the overhand method uses mostly your arm and your grip. These are not fine motor skills, as anyone who has handled an infant can attest to. "Reach and grab" motions differ greatly from dexterous maneuvers with individual digits.

If the slide release works for you, by all means use it. To the OP, use the method you're comfortable with.

Drail
March 1, 2010, 09:20 PM
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your opinion of the gun being defective by not releasing the slide stop by simply pulling the slide back a little when it is locked open. I built this gun many years ago and shot IPSC for 10 years with this gun and it functions perfectly. I have seen other 1911s exhibit the same behavior. When the slide on this gun is fully locked back there is no remaining travel left but the slide stop works perfectly. How is this a defect? Yes, I am running a shok buff and the slide stop has been modified to NEVER lock open on an empty magazine(we won't go into that subject) but even if I remove it and the slide is now free to be pulled back a little more the slide stop remains up (with no magazine in place). Normal pressure on the slide stop will release the slide. So what is the defect? I think whether a gun does this or not is dependent on the amount of slide travel and the angles on the stop engagement surfaces and whether or not the stop has dimples for the plunger to hold it (up or down). My stop has been dimpled to hold the stop in the up and the down position. In other words. it will only lock or release the slide with manual thumb pressure. I understand that some may think this is odd but I hardly consider it "defective". It was set up this way for competition but I can't see how any of these mods would be disadvantagous or defective. Given all of the slide stop malfunctions I have seen in matches I don't want my slide stop moving up or down unless I move it. I suppose most people are of the mindset that a 1911 MUST lock open on the last shot. I don't see any advantage and I have seen disadvantages to it.

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 09:55 PM
Putting a "dimple" on the face of the slide stop was SOP with guns I had built by Jim Clark Sr. , Bill Wilson , and Steve Nastoff in the early/mid-80s. I say SOP because I DID NOT request it but they all were "top shelf" guns back then. { still are to me }


Ps ---- I also use Shok-Buffs in ALL my 1911s be they .45acp , 10mm , or .38 Super --- never had problems because of them and I change them out { $1 } every 5000 rds.

JohnKSa
March 1, 2010, 10:20 PM
I am running a shok buff and the slide stop has been modified to NEVER lock open on an empty magazine... My stop has been dimpled to hold the stop in the up and the down position.If you had just said up front that your guns were intentionally modified to NOT release the slide when the slide is pulled back that would have saved some pointless verbiage, wouldn't it?

People can modify a gun to work any way they want it to.

Let's say in a thread about Ruger P95 pistols I made the claim that I had three of them that wouldn't chamber 9mm ammunition and then sat by for awhile continuing to make the assertion in the face of claims that the pistols should chamber 9mm and that if they didn't they must be defective. Then after awhile I finally admitted that I had modified them so they wouldn't chamber 9mm ammunition.

What would be the point of my doing something like that? Besides trolling, I mean.

As far as your opinion of whether the gun is defective or not, let me ask you this. Mr. John Browning designed the 1911. If you simply handed him your gun to test, what would his assessment of its performance be? You and I both know that he would tell you that on a 1911 the slide is supposed to lock open on empty and that pulling the slide back should allow the slide to drop. You and I both know that he would tell you that it needed some remedial service to operate the way he intended it. He would tell you that it was defective and that it didn't work as it should.

It's your gun, you can set it up any way you want it to. That's purely up to you and nobody else and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But throwing the operation of your specially modified guns into a general discussion on how to operate guns WITHOUT explaining that they are specially modified until you get pushed into a corner is pure trolling as far as I'm concerned.

1SOW
March 1, 2010, 10:30 PM
Newbie question - close slide by racking or by pressing slide stop

I believe your instructor was correct----mostly.

Your gun is designed to shoot and cycle reliably with your slide being cycled all the way to maximum recoil spring tension. In most guns, using the slide release does not give full recoil spring force, so the "most reliable" method is to pull it to the rear and release the slide.

Having said that, I'm a hypocrite; because when I slam a mag in on a combat reload, the top round will lift the slide enough to release it and be ready to shoot on a typical CZ. I really like that feature for speed. This is the same as using the slide release.

Now the downside: I know no one ever shoots a dirty gun except me; but after a long match or on a day where I shoot twice, this slide release method can fail to feed. The rails are dirty or sooty or need oil and the light recoil spring I use may not feed with 100% reliability.

You make your choices and understand/deal with the possible results.

bds
March 1, 2010, 10:34 PM
Wow, talk about setting off a charge ... 3 pages in one day???:D Let's all take a deeeeeeep breath.

You know, there's more than one way to skin a cat:

Of course, there's the "ideal" way to chamber a round - Plan A.
But, there are other ways to chamber a round too - Plan B/C, etc.


I think more time should be spent on how quickly and accurately send the bullet down range than argue about how to chamber ... Kinda like arguing about positions vs happy ending.

CHEVELLE427
March 1, 2010, 10:37 PM
don't use the slid release for the baby eagles or any step child of the same model,
it will wear out the plastic notch in the mag's and the gun will stop staying open on last round sooner then later :uhoh:

Drail
March 1, 2010, 10:42 PM
John, I humbly apologize for getting you all riled up. I was merely responding to the comments that any gun must somehow be "defective" if it won't slingshot release and the statement that all semi auto pistols will release from slide lock by pulling back and letting go. I did not modify my guns to not release when pulling back on the slide, I modified them so that they would not lock open on empty. They would not slingshot release when they were new. I have seen a number of 1911s (in stock form) that would not release this way. Like I said, it's just a matter of how much slide travel and the angles on the stop. I don't believe John Browning designed the pistol to slingshot release or that any of the current manufacturers give much thought to being able to slingshot release the slide when locked. Some will, some won't. That is the reason I question the wisdom of teaching students to always assume that they will. As I said before I have not found any that will not work by simply pressing the slide stop to release it. I have to believe the reason the slide stop has checkering or serrations on it is so it can be released by just thumbing it down. If your guns will pull back and release and you want to do that it's perfectly OK. I don't see any advantage to the method though. Maybe I'm just weird. Anyway, all due respect to you sir.

JohnKSa
March 1, 2010, 11:06 PM
John, I humbly apologize for getting you all riled up.You're a good man. You're probably entitled to at least one or two sharp retorts after my diatribe. :oI don't believe John Browning designed the pistol to slingshot release or that any of the current manufacturers give much thought to being able to slingshot release the slide when locked.Basically you're saying that being able to slingshot the slide might be a more or less unintended side effect of the fact that to prevent the slide from locking open early the slide stop/release has to have positive spring pressure to keep it in the "unlocked" position.

I've got to be honest and admit that I've never even considered such a thing.

I appreciate the input, it's a very interesting thing to think about.

I apologize for the harsh words,

Best

John

P.S. I do want to make it clear that my irritation had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you prefer to release the slide using the slide release/stop instead of the slingshot method. It's true that I think the slingshot method offers some advantages but there's no way I would get upset because someone chose to use the slide release/stop.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 11:37 PM
I don't believe John Browning designed the pistol to slingshot release or that any of the current manufacturers give much thought to being able to slingshot release the slide when locked.
*facepalm*

bigiron1
March 2, 2010, 12:44 AM
It seems I may be a bit late to the party but I always figured that I should practice grabbing the slide to release it because I carry different semi-autos at different times and they all will chamber a round with that method. I never really could reach the majority of slide stops/releases with my short fat thumb anyhow.

lwknight
March 2, 2010, 12:56 AM
Its good to be in practice of racking the slide. It will help overcome the mitten hand syndrome when under stress. Unless you have a really easy big fat slide release you would be better off using the rack method.
It just might save your life someday.

9mmepiphany
March 2, 2010, 01:02 AM
I don't believe John Browning designed the pistol to slingshot release or that any of the current manufacturers give much thought to being able to slingshot release the slide when locked.

i'll gather you missed my post of user induced excessive wear because they used the slide stop to release the slide on the GLock ...as opposed to how it was originally intended

i also don't really care how you've modified you gun to operate, but i find it disingenuous to enter a general discussion about the operation of stock guns with a contrary statement based on a personal modification. it would being like saying that you can't depend on a pull of a trigger releasing the hammer/striker, because you've had yours modified to fire on the release of pressure on the trigger

bds
March 2, 2010, 01:21 AM
Using slide lock will give you faster magazine change. Todd Jarrett covers both on Second Season Lesson 7:

Click the "Tactical Reloads" video that covers speed reload, slide lock reload, back of the slide reload with gloves, reload with retention, tactical reload:

Video link: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid61264484001


Text/photo link: http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JARRETT2-7/jarrett2-7.html

The next reload will be the slide lock. Key thing about this is understanding where the slide lock position is when you break the shot. You’ll find this will be hard to get to at times. Let me demonstrate this one more time. On a slide lock reload, once the magazine is inserted properly put your thumb on slide stop releasing it to allow the slide to go forward to pick up the round.

The second version of the slide lock reload will be not using the slide stop, but from the back of the gun. Grab the slide with a firm grip, pull and release, allowing the slide to strip a round from the magazine and load it into the chamber. The reason why I’m doing this is because it’s difficult to master the slide lock on some of the guns on the market out there, and also wearing a set of gloves will also help you enhance your stripping the rounds off. So let’s give it a try with a set of gloves on.


Good link for other Todd Jarrett defensive shooting/match lessons (Enjoy! :D): http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/TODD_JARRETT/todd_jarrett.html

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JARRETT2-7/Todd2-7-1.jpg http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JARRETT2-7/Todd2-7-2.jpg http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JARRETT2-7/Todd2-7-3.jpg

Gunfighter123
March 2, 2010, 01:28 AM
I have had the good luck to shoot on the same squad as Todd Jarrett once ---- he had just turned GrandMaster {top of the food chain} ---- he would give "tips" on how to shoot the stage to anyone who asked and he patched targets and plucked brass just like the rest of us "mortals" .

He is a first class act and a true Southern Gentleman ----- and a HELLL of a shooter !!!

lwknight
March 2, 2010, 01:54 AM
Using slide lock will give you faster magazine change. Todd Jarrett covers both on Second Season Lesson 7:
Even Todd Jarret could end up being clumsy if the targets were shooting back at him.

Gunfighter123
March 2, 2010, 02:47 AM
Even Todd Jarret could end up being clumsy if the targets were shooting back at him.

Sorry LW , I don't understand your statement --- are you saying if Todd Jarret was being shot at , he would not be "as clumsy" useing the "other" method to reload ???

RobMoore
March 2, 2010, 05:55 AM
I think you'll find more issues getting the magazine into the gun than you will figuring out how to get the slide forward.

Drail
March 2, 2010, 08:25 AM
JohnKSa, absolutely no need to apologize, I didn't see anything I would consider "harsh" in your post. And while I could have mentioned that my gun was not stock I had absolutely to intention of "trolling" or "baiting" anyone here, I honestly didn't think it was germaine to the discussion. The whole wear issue from tripping the slide stop is amusing to me as I have been doing this for many years with several guns and all have the original slide stops and there is no wear on them or the notch. That said I am sure it has happened with some guns but I believe the problem is one of incorrect heat treat of the two parts or improper angles and not because the stop was thumbed off. I find that an great many people read or hear something like this and repeat without ever having actually seen it happen. In all the years of competition I never saw anyone NOT use the slide stop to release their slide. But it's your choice and if it works for you there's no problem. Some of these "experts" have more hot air than knowledge in my opinion.

bds
March 2, 2010, 10:17 AM
* deleted mis-quote *

As Todd Jarrett explained in the video, racking the slide to chamber a round is another option that is available to you (he was demonstrating gloved hand situation). Many shooters compete with gloves.

They use the slide stop because it is faster, period.

Shawn Dodson
March 2, 2010, 11:26 AM
Notice where Jarrett's visual focus is - inward on the pistol and not outward on a threat.

Jarrett's videos present a specific technique for a specific problem - slide lock reload. Put a blindfold on him and hand him a pistol with any given (nonspecific) stoppage inserted and see how he performs when the gun doesn't fire at the press of the trigger.

Competition techniques emphasize speed and are performed in a controlled environment.

Combative techniques emphasize reliability in an uncontrolled environment and quickness.

RobMoore
March 2, 2010, 11:47 AM
I think he'd put money down on your challenge.

When teaching a skill, there is a tendancy to observe yourself doing it more than you would under live conditions. I only take a split second "courtesy glance" when I do a reload, but when I'm teaching it to others, and performing it at a slower speed, I watch myself perform the drill.

Guns and more
March 2, 2010, 01:47 PM
It depends on the firearm. Anyone telling you any different is telling you wrong.
My Kahr PM-9 manual says to use the slide release. I do. The recoil spring in the Kahr is so stout that racking the slide can result in limp wristing. Other pistols I have may have the slide racked.
I'm not aware of any problem caused by using the slide release on a loaded magazine. Some manufacturers put the slide release in an inconvenient spot (too short) and cause you to rotate your grip to reach the slide release with your thumb. Using your support hand to release the slide is a good idea. (But I don't, I should practice)

lwknight
March 2, 2010, 02:13 PM
What I was trying to point out in my previous posts was that a person should be in practice of racking the slide to release it. I say this because by virtue of being a firefighter for 12 years I have learned that simple tasks that normally present no challenge can at times of stress and dire circumstances be nearly impossible.
The boby just will not do exactly what you want. You may be able to leap buildings in a single bound but could not even put the cap back on your pen.

The thumb release is is great and all but, I can imagine someone not being able to operate it when under fire. The LEO's call it mitten hands. Thats why I think that it is good to at least practice using the racking method rather than relying solely on the thumb release.

If a person has never practiced racking the slide , they will probably not think of it in a dire situation.

REAPER4206969
March 2, 2010, 02:58 PM
They use the slide stop because it is faster, period.
Defensive shooters use the overhand tug because it is more reliable, period.

Drail
March 2, 2010, 03:12 PM
Once again I am misunderstood. Bds, I was referring to the instructors who teach NEVER using the slide stop, I was NOT referring to Todd Jarrett. I think I will go away now since every time I open my mouth someone manages to turn what I said around 180 degrees. Maybe my English sucks. Y'all have a good day.

EddieNFL
March 2, 2010, 03:16 PM
OPPS

EddieNFL
March 2, 2010, 03:19 PM
Next would be the release with the weak thumb, then overhand, and finally the release with the strong hand thumb. This is the most consistent I see because the thumb is already there.

My strong-side thumb isn't long enough to reach the SS on a 1911. For me the weak hand thumb is fastest.

Nick5182
March 2, 2010, 03:33 PM
My dad is a retired ATF firearms instructor, and racking the slide is what he was taught, and that's how he told me to do it. However, I always use the slide release because after loading a fresh mag, I don't have to reach over the weapon, and reposition my support hand, once the weapon is ready to fire again. It's easier for me to load a new mag, re-grip the frame with my support hand, and drop the slide with my firing hand. It's just easier for me to do it that way.

Boats
March 2, 2010, 04:11 PM
This has been an informative thread. Level headed folks on one side, hyper opinionated ninjas on the other.

LawofThirds
March 2, 2010, 04:14 PM
You're all doing it wrong. The correct way to get a firearm back into the fight after reloading is to close the cylinder.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to say that it's possible to learn to reload, shoot accurately and slingshot a slide but it's impossible to use/learn multiple ways of closing the slide. Usually this is coming from the same mouths that advocate learning how to use a fence post, belt, shoe, curb, coke can & hamburger to get your gun back running one handed.

As a lefty, I can get a gun back on the target far faster by index finger wiping the slide stop as both hands re-grasp the gun. Especially with a 1911 or S&W M&P, I'm usually shooting again with the slide stop method before I would have been done giving the gun a handjob. For stopages, yes, I use the slingshot since I've had an ejection port or two eat a finger using the overhand method.

lwknight
March 2, 2010, 04:25 PM
This has been an informative thread. Level headed folks on one side, hyper opinionated ninjas on the other

Which one was I ?

NMGonzo
March 2, 2010, 04:46 PM
My 380 will release the slide by simply inserting the magazine.

Zerodefect
March 2, 2010, 05:40 PM
"Tap, Rack, bang." Deosn't mention a slide stop. LOLz. I have found that useing the slide stop lever is slightly more likely to jam the gun than the overhand racking of the slide.

David E
March 2, 2010, 07:53 PM
i'm not arguing that the use of the slide stop isn't easier...i'm just saying that the overhand doesn't give up speed between aimed shots

I am arguing that the speed IS affected doing one way vs the other way.

This presumes we're after the fastest shot-to-shot time requiring a good hit. (One could just shoot one handed as the gun is punched out, if the target was close enough)

gc70
March 2, 2010, 07:54 PM
The recoil spring in the Kahr is so stout that racking the slide can result in limp wristing.

I don't understand this; could you provide more explanation?

David E
March 2, 2010, 07:54 PM
I have found that useing the slide stop lever is slightly more likely to jam the gun than the overhand racking of the slide.

Curious.....

How so ?

Make and model would be appreicated.

bds
March 2, 2010, 09:00 PM
I was referring to the instructors who teach NEVER using the slide stop, I was NOT referring to Todd Jarrett. I think I will go away now since every time I open my mouth someone manages to turn what I said around 180 degrees. Maybe my English sucks. Y'all have a good day.

Drail, I am so sorry that I misread your post.:banghead: It was early in the morning and I was still waking up. Sincere apology ... PM sent.

I deleted the mis-quoted post.

bds
March 2, 2010, 09:07 PM
"Tap, Rack, bang." Doesn't mention a slide stop.

This applies to malfunctions with slide already forward or partially recoiled back and actuating the slide stop/lock would have no affect - you would have to pull the slide back with your non-shooting hand.

Drail
March 2, 2010, 09:41 PM
bds, no problem. You should see me in the morning. For what it's worth, I am a BIG fan of Todd Jarrett. I remember seeing him at the USPSA National matches back in the Dark Ages before he got "famous". I was sure he was going to make it big and he's a hell of a nice guy also. Almost all of the top competitors I have had the pleasure to meet were first class guys who were more than willing to answer questions and help the new guys. Good luck to you.

orionengnr
March 2, 2010, 10:11 PM
Well, I read the first page, but I'm not going to read five pages. :rolleyes:

I use the slide release on all of my semi-autos. Works on my Ruger MkIIs, works on my Kahrs, works on my 1911s.

Works on my GF's XD, worked on my Glocks (when I had them).

Old dogs/new tricks, leopards and their spots, etc...I'll stick with what has worked for me for aboy 40 years.

You may do what you like.

lilidiot
March 2, 2010, 10:25 PM
Here take a look at this please, it might help to explain a lot of things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

JohnKSa
March 2, 2010, 11:45 PM
Quote:
I have found that useing the slide stop lever is slightly more likely to jam the gun than the overhand racking of the slide.

Curious.....

How so ?

Make and model would be appreicated. It's been my experience that the slide has noticeably less force coming forward when released by the slide stop/release compared to the slingshot/racking technique. It's a result of the fact that pulling the slide back to clear the slide stop compresses the spring a bit more which results in more force pushing the slide forward when it's released.

This is most apparent on the first round of a fully loaded magazine and gets worse as the gun gets dirtier.

In one case I shot a very large number of rounds through a Ruger P95 in a single session. It finally started jamming on the first round out of a full magazine when the slide was dropped with the lever but was still 100% reliable if the slingshot/racking technique was used to drop the slide.

bigiron1
March 2, 2010, 11:53 PM
agreed

Gunfighter123
March 2, 2010, 11:55 PM
Shawn Dodson
Member



Join Date: December 28, 2002
Location: Titusville, FL
Posts: 555
Notice where Jarrett's visual focus is - inward on the pistol and not outward on a threat.

Jarrett's videos present a specific technique for a specific problem - slide lock reload. Put a blindfold on him and hand him a pistol with any given (nonspecific) stoppage inserted and see how he performs when the gun doesn't fire at the press of the trigger.

Competition techniques emphasize speed and are performed in a controlled environment.

Combative techniques emphasize reliability in an uncontrolled environment and quickness.
__________________


Shawn ---- I THINK you must be jokeing !!!!!

Todd is doing a demo for one thing. In the video link posted by Reaper , it shows Clint Smith TALKING/LOOKING at the camera !!!! Where is his Tactical visual focus at that time ???????

Put a "blindfold" on Todd and I will place my money on him against most anybody else WHO ARE ALSO BLINDFOLDED at anything shooting related.

As to your statement " Combative techniques emphasize reliability in an uncontrolled environment and quickness." Are these Techniques learned ONLY in Combat or are they learned/TAUGHT in a CONTROLLED environment ???


___

The Lone Haranguer
March 3, 2010, 12:08 AM
Yes, "fine motor skills" do degrade under stress, but if you can't depress a slide stop, how do you manage to wipe off safeties, let alone pull triggers?

bds
March 3, 2010, 12:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

Nice. I follow Gunsite and Thunder Ranch training methods.

They are very good source for combat tactical training.

REAPER4206969
March 3, 2010, 12:52 AM
how do you manage to wipe off safeties,
There is a reason why most modern handguns don't have manual safeties.
let alone pull triggers?
Most won't do that well either.

Shawn Dodson
March 3, 2010, 12:27 PM
Todd is doing a demo for one thing. Exactly! He’s demonstrating a specific, preplanned corrective action for a known, inserted stoppage. In his shooting regimen he has the luxury of shifting his focus to his gun, to decrease the amount of time needed to manipulate it (speed), because he has no uncontrolled danger to continuously monitor and react to.

In the video link posted by Reaper , it shows Clint Smith TALKING/LOOKING at the camera !!!! Where is his Tactical visual focus at that time ??????? As I didn’t address the Clint Smith video I don’t know what your point is?

Put a "blindfold" on Todd and I will place my money on him against most anybody else WHO ARE ALSO BLINDFOLDED at anything shooting related. The point is, the situation is different when one encounters a spontaneous, unknown stoppage.

As to your statement " Combative techniques emphasize reliability in an uncontrolled environment and quickness." Are these Techniques learned ONLY in Combat or are they learned/TAUGHT in a CONTROLLED environment ??? They are positive actions that can be performed on demand, quickly with reliable results.

RobMoore
March 3, 2010, 12:35 PM
In his shooting regimen he has the luxury of shifting his focus to his gun, to decrease the amount of time needed to manipulate it (speed), because he has no uncontrolled danger to continuously monitor and react to.

Speed is a tactic. Better to get the reload done in short order and be able to fight again, than to have your eyes focused in the threat area as you fumble to complete the reload by feel with your decreased dexterity. You can't hurt the threat with your eyes. You need to get your gun back up.

eddism
March 3, 2010, 12:43 PM
Expensive pistols for a first time purchaser. 9X19mm is cheap and available. I'd get the instruction from a qualified instructor. There you will get first-hand advise and real-time experience. It is well worth the small price to have a few lessons and learn correct use of a pistol. Then to make a simple mistake that could cost you dearly.

I perfer overhand racking. The later will cause problems line jamming.

Shawn Dodson
March 3, 2010, 02:50 PM
Speed is a tactic. Better to get the reload done in short order and be able to fight again, than to have your eyes focused in the threat area as you fumble to complete the reload by feel You're in darkness. You're under attack. You press the trigger and your gun doesn't fire. You reflexively Tap, Roll & Rack. You experience a serial misfire. Do you have to move NOW or do you have time to clear the stoppage? Can you visually diagnose whether you’ve fired your gun to slide lock or whether you’ve experienced a failure to extract? Do you perform a Combat Reload or do you clear a doublefeed? LOOK OUT! TACTICAL INTERRUPT! You have to move NOW to keep the bad guy from outmaneuvering you. Can you perform your manipulations on the move, in the dark? Do you release the slide lock or do you retract and release the slide? Which technique promotes the illusion of “speed” but adds to your mental load? Which technique can quickly get the gun running with less conscious effort while you’re on the move without the need to look at the gun?

RobMoore
March 3, 2010, 04:12 PM
Cool story.

The slide-catch requires less of my mental focus to activate than either the slingshot or the overhand.

The Lone Haranguer
March 3, 2010, 06:20 PM
It is possible under stress to fumble a slide rack, too - i.e., insufficient grasp and tug to pull it to the rear, inadvertently "riding" it forward, etc.

Shawn Dodson
March 3, 2010, 06:58 PM
The slide-catch requires less of my mental focus to activate than either the slingshot or the overhand. Exactly! Releasing the slide lock after seating the magazine requires less decision-making and works equally well for quickly clearing a failure to extract (when the slide is in battery) as it does for quickly performing a Combat Reload (when the slide is probably locked open).

1SOW
March 3, 2010, 10:24 PM
"The fight will not be the way you want it to be. The fight will be the way it is. You must to be flexible enough to adapt." -- Unknown

Untue statement. Many of us knew 'them'. Their names were preceded by "A"SGT, Firearms Instructor, U.S."Mil Org", Many different names.

What you practice consistently is what you'll tend to revert to under stress.
Make your own choices.
Do what's best for you and your gun in your situation.
Learn to do everything more than one way.
Smooth is fast.

The OP ought to be rewarded. :D

Redhat
March 3, 2010, 11:20 PM
It's nice to be sure "your" way is "the way".

OP has a Beretta which I would not recommend over-handing due to the location of the safety...which has already been mentioned but apparently ignored by some here. IN any event, he can try both ways under simulated stress such as a timer and see how that works out for him.

Point two that remains conveniently unanswered is how one can be expected to have the dexterity to operate the magazine release...under stress and all.

Fact is there are many "gurus" out there who promote different methods.

REAPER4206969
March 3, 2010, 11:45 PM
Fact is there are many "gurus" out there who promote different methods.
Which one promotes the use of the slide stop?

Redhat
March 3, 2010, 11:55 PM
If you don't know then you could do some research...but would it matter?

REAPER4206969
March 3, 2010, 11:58 PM
Name names.

John Wayne
March 4, 2010, 12:05 AM
Whichever feels more comfortable to you. The slingshot method is more universal, and has few drawbacks, IMO. A lot of people seem to pinch their fingers when they do it on my Ruger Mk. II (reinforcing not to ride it forward :D ) A lot of guns have small slide stops, because the manufacturer did not intend for it to be used as a slide release (Glocks, for example). The advantage to using the slide stop is that it allows you to have a firing grip on the gun as you close the slide.

gc70
March 4, 2010, 12:21 AM
There are too many variables for there to be an absolute answer to the question. Use the method that works well for you.

Shawn Dodson
March 4, 2010, 11:42 AM
You’ll fall back on your training and experience.

There are some who release the slide lock after seating a magazine out of fear they’ll short stroke the slide and produce a stoppage. This fear apparently doesn’t apply to Tap, Rack, in which the slide is also retracted and released. The practice of manually releasing the slide lock doesn’t provide training and experience in racking the slide, so when the slide must be racked to clear a stoppage, the shooter has less training and experience to fall back on to properly perform the task. The fear can be a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The practice of releasing the slide lock after seating the magazine reinforces the two actions as an ingrained response: seat the magazine AND reflexively release the slide lock. This can create a dilemma when clearing a doublefeed stoppage as the slide is usually in battery when the magazine is seated. A shooter who has ingrained the habit of automatically releasing the slide lock after seating a magazine is going to seat the magazine and then most likely attempt to manually release the slide lock instead of racking the slide to chamber a round. Releasing the slide lock is a more familiar movement after seating the magazine than racking the slide.

Cheers!

grimjaw
March 4, 2010, 03:02 PM
I used to use the slide stop/release more often, but since I started practicing tap-rack-bang, I switched over to using the slide to chamber a round.

RobMoore
March 4, 2010, 04:20 PM
Shawn, I lock the slide to the rear on a secondary malfunction clearance (such as a doublefeed), and the slide release remains a viable method for that as well. Doing this makes magazine removal easier, and the obstruction usually falls free, whereas slides that are forward retain the obstruction until the shooter cycles the gun. Cycling the gun is tougher with a magazine in your hand, so most people are taught to strip it free to the ground. Now they have one less magazine (which may have been their last).

I use, have used, and teach to lock it open, pull the mag, observe that the gun is clear, fix it if it isn't, reseat the mag, slide forward. Whereas the key words for the immediate action are "Tap Rack Bang", the key words here would be "Lock, Pull, Look, Load".

I don't find that using the slide release for reloads causes any hesitation to clear a malfunction with tap-rack. Drilling tap-rack with random dummy rounds makes the clearance a reaction to the failure.

Perhaps the self-fulfilling prophesy is those who think using the slide release won't work for them under stress, so they always train to tug on the slide. When they do decide one day to try the slide release, maybe with a little induced stress, they fail and attribute it to the technique being poor instead of their lack of practice at it.

HexHead
March 4, 2010, 04:29 PM
Nighthawk recommends only using the slide stop to release the slide. Their reasoning is that over time, unequal pressure can cause uneven wear on the slide rails. Sounds logical to me, though I doubt I'd ever put enough rounds through mine in this lifetime to cause that problem. But I'm sure for some shooters it's a possibility.

But what do they know compared to some high speed, low drag instructor? :D

EddieNFL
March 4, 2010, 04:35 PM
There are too many variables for there to be an absolute answer to the question. Use the method that works well for you.
Logical answers have no place on the internet.

RobMoore
March 4, 2010, 04:37 PM
Hmmm, I'd like to see a gun with that problem, as we're only talking about the force exerted by manually cycling the gun rearward less than one quarter of an inch, once out of every 7-8 rounds fired.

Redhat
March 4, 2010, 07:49 PM
There are some who release the slide lock after seating a magazine out of fear they’ll short stroke the slide and produce a stoppage.

There also might be some who do it because they can and realize it's faster.

REAPER4206969
March 4, 2010, 08:21 PM
But what do they know compared to some high speed, low drag instructor?
They know much more about making range toys.

EddieNFL
March 4, 2010, 08:40 PM
They know much more about making range toys.

...and selling DVDs.

LRS_Ranger
March 4, 2010, 08:57 PM
This just in, using your gun will cause parts wear... best leave it in the safe...

bds
March 5, 2010, 12:36 AM
Wow, page 6 and we are still at it! :D


How about this?


Both methods will chamber a round from the magazine.

Whichever method we choose to use to practice, we practice enough to master it with our eyes closed.


However ....


This is what our range master did with every new SWAT student:

"Now hold your gun with your weak hand and do the same (chamber a round) - Bang, you are dead (he was holding the dominant hand of the new student with a smile)."

We fight like we train.

He said to master releasing the slide with the weak hand also - which would make racking the slide with the non-shooting hand the obvious choice, unless your shooting hand was injured. He said the worst time to fumble releasing the slide with your weak hand was when the bullets were flying. He said use whatever method we preferred, as long as we could consistently, reliably and quickly release the slide after it was locked from the last round fired and new magazine inserted.


What if you mastered both methods?


For this reason, I am welcoming new gun models with ambi-slide release features. Of course, M&P already has it. :D

9mmepiphany
March 5, 2010, 12:50 AM
What if you mastered both methods?
after you have both methods ingrained, it's time to move to advanced techniques...like one handed chambering. i highly recommend you practice this...a lot...with snap caps, to begin with

RobMoore
March 5, 2010, 10:57 AM
Now hold your gun with your weak hand and do the same

Not a problem. I shoot an M&P. :)

shockwave
March 5, 2010, 11:18 AM
Here's a video showing Israeli point-shooting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRq-G39Grv0) classes, and you can see in several places that they rack the slide while pushing the gun back forward on target. Just because it's a video doesn't mean it's "correct," but it's a good illustration of the technique under discussion.

bds
March 5, 2010, 12:35 PM
"Now hold your gun with your weak hand and do the same"

Not a problem. I shoot an M&P.

Exactly. :) I have a feeling that more and more gun manufacturers will add this feature in their future line up. Taurus G2 and 822 models already have the ambi-slide lock too. I think Gen5 Glocks will have ambi-slide lock also.

Shawn Dodson
March 5, 2010, 12:46 PM
RobMoore writes: Shawn, I lock the slide to the rear on a secondary malfunction clearance (such as a doublefeed), and the slide release remains a viable method for that as well. Doing this makes magazine removal easier, and the obstruction usually falls free, whereas slides that are forward retain the obstruction until the shooter cycles the gun. Cycling the gun is tougher with a magazine in your hand, so most people are taught to strip it free to the ground. Now they have one less magazine (which may have been their last).

I use, have used, and teach to lock it open, pull the mag, observe that the gun is clear, fix it if it isn't, reseat the mag, slide forward. Whereas the key words for the immediate action are "Tap Rack Bang", the key words here would be "Lock, Pull, Look, Load".

In post #59 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6320179&postcount=59), I presented the progressive, nondiagnostic techniques that I use for clearing stoppages.

I don’t have to look at the gun to successfully clear any stoppage. (Indeed, lighting conditions or my eyes not being adapted to the dark or my night vision being ruined by a flashlight beam to the eyes, may prevent me from seeing my gun clearly.) I don’t even try to figure out what’s causing the problem. I just perform a series of actions that will eventually clear the stoppage. If one series of actions fail to get the gun running I immediate progress to the next series of actions. I can perform these actions on the move, and I can perform them with very little mental effort so my mind is free to sense and react to the danger I’m facing.

In short, if the gun doesn’t fire when I press the trigger, I immediately perform Tap, Roll & Rack. This will clear any stoppage except a depleted magazine or a doublefeed.

If Tap, Roll & Rack fail, I immediately progress to performing a Combat Reload because I’m more likely to have shot the gun to slide lock than to have experienced a doublefeed, and I can get the gun running quicker if all that’s needed is a simple Combat Reload.

If, while performing the Combat Reload, I can’t install the fresh magazine because the “depleted” magazine is stuck in the magazine well, I just put the fresh magazine between the ring and pinky fingers of my firing hand, to quickly and smoothly clear my support hand for operating the slide. I lock the slide to the rear to remove recoil spring tension on the jammed cartridge, just like you, to make it easier to remove the stuck magazine. (It can either be discarded or, if it’s your only magazine, put between your ring and pinky fingers.) When I have the magazine removed, I cycle the slide three times to clear the action, and then complete the Combat Reload (Seat, Roll & Rack).

Whenever I seat a magazine, either loading or Combat Reload, I exploit the action as a training opportunity to replicate and reinforce the actions I use to clear stoppages. I always administratively load my gun with the slide in battery so I train to overcome the resistance of magazine spring that I’ll have to do when I seat the magazine after clearing a doublefeed or if I inadvertently touch release the slide lock while performing a Combat Reload. I’m doing everything I can to ingrain the movements I need to do to help me be successful if I ever have to perform these actions while I’m being attacked. I can successfully perform everything I need to do, quickly and reliably, without manually releasing the slide lock. The only time I touch the slide lock is to lock the slide open.

I use the overhand method to operate the slide, which David E describes very well in post #16 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6318632&postcount=16)

I describe the mechanics of Tap, Roll & Rack in post #51 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6320097&postcount=51).

RobMoore
March 5, 2010, 03:47 PM
I don't HAVE to look at the gun to clear it, but why not use the information if it IS available?

Shawn Dodson
March 5, 2010, 04:31 PM
but why not use the information if it IS available? The technique I use doesn't require the information - it's entirely non-diagnostic. I just do it. Attempting to diagnose the problem and then choosing the best remedy reduces quickness.

Tap, Roll & Rack takes about 1 second to perform.
Combat Reload - less than 5 seconds to get the gun running from time of initial stoppage.
Clearing a doublefeed - about 8 seconds to get the gun running from time of initial stoppage.

If Tap, Roll & Rack doesn't get the gun running then my primary concern at the moment is not the gun but in making sure the attacker doesn't hurt me. (This is why I don't try to diagnose a problem if I detect that the slide is out of battery when I work it - the information just slows me down and can cause me to become preoccupied with my gun instead of avoiding danger.) If I'm behind cover then I probably have the opportunity to immediately perform Combat Reload or clear a doublefeed. If I'm not behind cover then I'm exposed and vulnerable and I probably have to move to keep from getting hurt or I have to immediately use alternative force.

RobMoore
March 5, 2010, 04:38 PM
The glance isn't a "stop and observe". Tap-Rack begins to happen, but if I see that an out of battery has occurred (whether failure to extract or failure to chamber), I have eliminated the need to finish a procedure that I know probably won't work, and can begin a more useful process.

If a double feed takes you 8 seconds to clear, perhaps a reevaluation of how you're clearing it is in order.

Shawn Dodson
March 5, 2010, 05:09 PM
I have eliminated the need to finish a procedure that I know probably won't work, and can begin a more useful process. While you stand there exposed and preoccupied with your gun. In the 1 second or so it takes to perform Tap, Roll & Rack I don't have time to glance at the gun, even if lighting conditions permit. My visual focus is on the threat. If a double feed takes you 8 seconds to clear, perhaps a reevaluation of how you're clearing it is in order. I've considered and tried other techniques but I've determined the one I currently use is the best technique to quickly clear any spontaneous, unknown stoppage. 8 seconds to clear a doublefeed is total manipulation time under controlled conditions. I expect total time to take longer in a fight as I'll probably have other tactical considerations to deal with that are more important.

RobMoore
March 5, 2010, 05:49 PM
Who says I'm standing there exposed?

You might not have so many incorrect assumptions if you stop picturing me as an unwashed amateur, instead of a (fellow?) professional, simply because I have a different point of view.

Shawn Dodson
March 5, 2010, 06:42 PM
You might not have so many incorrect assumptions if you stop picturing me as an unwashed amateur, instead of a (fellow?) professional, simply because I have a different point of view. I'm not judging you.

Tap, Roll & Rack is an intuitive, subconscious response (observe*, act). When you add to it (glancing to see what the problem might be) you increase the time it takes to cycle through your OODA loop because instead of just "observe, act" you're now including "orient" and "decide" to your response. Your mental load is now split between deciding what to do with your pistol and deciding what to do in reaction to the dangerous environment (if you have the presence of mind). You have two OODA loops competing for your attention.

I perform Tap, Roll & Rack so quickly whenever I encounter a misfire that there's no way I could reliably diagnose between an "inline stovepipe" or a doublefeed or between a doublefeed or an empty magazine.

*not to observe as in "see," but to observe as in "sense"

Lonestar49
March 5, 2010, 07:07 PM
...

Well said Rob..

To the OP:

Whichever method of slide release you choose, may I strongly suggest "when gun is disassembled for inspection, cleaning, reassembly", that you "never use the slide lock release lever" to close the slide after you have finished putting your gun back together.

I say this only because, after reading about a fellow forum member who "always used the slide lock lever and one time he forgot to put the dissasembly lever back into locked position and hit the slide lock release and watched, in horror as his slide went airborne, flew quite a ways and landed on hard ground putting some ugly (un-needed) scratches on his, otherwise, flawless gun/slide.

Me, I use the slide lock release lever at the range 90% of the time, as IMHO, as others have stated, it allows one a stronger, 2-hand grip, point to aim, ability for faster on target shot but, more importantly, it also will aid "tremendously (having a 2-hand grip) IF, for any reason one's firing pin sticks (out) gets stuck and once the slide is released, whether by hand, or by slide lock release lever, the 2-hand grip will afford far better control over a one handed full auto, thru 7, 8, 10, or more mag-full loads over a one handed grip.

As, with one hand grip, the gun "will" fly over the top or swing in a half circle if gun is semi sideways and that "uncontrolled travel" via one handed grip, can have dire effects on one's surroundings vs 2-hand grip and gun pointing downrange and can be held, at worst, shooting straight up, but not at any one behind you or to your side..

Last point, as I laughed about the guys forgetting to lock up his gun, knowing it would never happen to me because in all my years of disassembly, inspections, cleanings, and reassembles, I've always held the slide and then hitting the slide-lock release lever and let the slide down easy by hand.. (on an empty mag or chamber, only) not for loading live ammo, or even a snap cap FTR.

Not long ago, not thinking about his story, and somewhere in my nothing-box, after cleaning one of my Sig P229's, I just hit the slide lock release lever (for the first time, only time) and :eek: watched my slide go flying (I forgot to put the lock lever back up) and luckily, had the gun pointing semi- down at the carpeted floor of my home office, and not at a wall or the window, as they have enough force to put a nice dent in a wall or go thru a glass window..

When it happened, I heard that fellow forum member, and many others, looking down at me, laughing, as I looked up at that exact moment :eek: as if (in astonishment) to acknowledge "the warning" I read in his testimony and the one_time lapse in my, once-only, moment of change from the way I had always before, and since, using the "one time" hand-hold the slide down gently anytime I open up a gun and then put it back together for any total, break-down, inspections, and verify, locked, all is good to go..



Ls

RobMoore
March 5, 2010, 07:30 PM
Ls, you just reminded me of the time my P229 sheered off a dissassembly lever while firing a PPC match. The only thing that saved my slide from crashing onto the concrete was the loaded magazine.

Boats
March 6, 2010, 12:18 AM
Waiting on reaper and myles to show up and detail the capturing of an unfamiliar handgun and magazine, and need for a mid-shoot out reload. . . .

I can hear the strains of action music even now. . . ."Here buddy, take my unfamiliar to you BUG, replace your shot through the frame primary and avenge me, ugh, oh wait, before I die, here's a fresh mag too!"

AKElroy
March 6, 2010, 12:24 AM
Or one or the other, depending in which gun we are talking about.

It is gun specific for me. Stock Glock slide release is tiny, so I like the slingshot. For CZ's, the slide only partially extends above the frame & it is hard to get a good grasp on it. My 85 has a very wide release, so I use the button.

Practice with your specific gun(s) & develope some muscle memory for what works.

REAPER4206969
March 6, 2010, 12:40 AM
Waiting on reaper and myles to show up and detail the capturing of an unfamiliar handgun and magazine, and need for a mid-shoot out reload. . . .
You're being obtuse.

Boats
March 6, 2010, 12:57 AM
You're being obtuse.

Nah. I'm merely waiting on a discourse about some good old ninja how-to, combined with a warrior spirit, and a winning mindset. Oh, and a lecture. And don't leave out the name dropping. New acronyms would be nice, especially if lifted from jet dogfighting.

Certainly there must be some scenario made up by someone tactically famous who in turn created a drill or two we can all benefit from?

bds
March 6, 2010, 01:06 AM
Went to the range today. I took a coworker who has shot revolvers all of his life who wanted to try my Glocks. I handed him my Glock with mild reloads and he limp-wristed causing a stovepipe jam. Without any instruction, he locked the slide back and removed the magazine and cleared the chamber. After reinserting the magazine, he USED THE SLIDE LOCK and released the slide forward.

I asked why he didn't rack the slide back to release the slide forward. He said, "Why?" and continued shooting.

I was speechless...:eek:

EddieNFL
March 6, 2010, 07:26 AM
If we continue to sit behind keyboards arguing questions that cannot be answered, we'll be obese. :evil:

Redneck with a 40
March 6, 2010, 10:59 AM
I only use the slide release with a loaded magazine to chamber a round. If the gun is empty, such as when I'm done cleaning it, I press the slide release and the ride the slide closed with my hand, so it doesn't slam shut on an empty chamber. I've read more than a few places, that's hard on the gun.

Myles
March 6, 2010, 12:41 PM
Waiting on reaper and myles to show up and detail the capturing of an unfamiliar handgun and magazine, and need for a mid-shoot out reload. . . .

I can hear the strains of action music even now. . . ."Here buddy, take my unfamiliar to you BUG, replace your shot through the frame primary and avenge me, ugh, oh wait, before I die, here's a fresh mag too!"

Wow, real high road, there buddy. I simply believe that the nice folks at Front Sight, and GunSite know more about the topic than you do. I don't care whether you shear off your magazine release, or if you should ever be on vacation hunting with a family members' gun, it's all up to you. I am a firm believer in sticking to the advice of real world trainers, not internet "experts."

EDIT: In fact, I'm not sure what riles you up to make the ninja, tacticool comments. In fact, I do not own an M4gery, I am not a fan of rails, lights, lasers, doodads, and gizmos. I do not plan on the end of the world or zombie invasion, I do not have a BUG, a BOB, or a tactical wheelbarrow. I like polished wood, and blued steel, and am down to earth about defensive firearms. I simply believe in real world training over hypothetical situations. It's how I was taught, it works, I will stick with it.

Boats
March 6, 2010, 01:26 PM
They have something to sell to you anyways. I was trained by real world experts commonly called Marines.

March 1, 2010, the "real internet expert" chimed in with this gem:

Believing the fight is going to go the way you want it to is a losers mindset. There are many situations where you could be using a different/captured handgun.

Reaper has yet to detail one of these "situations" let alone "many."

Waiting. . . .

bds
March 6, 2010, 01:46 PM
I do not have a BUG, a BOB, or a tactical wheelbarrow.

Here in California, due to potential 8+ earth quakes and resulting lawlessness/looting that may follow (like hurricane Andrew/Katrina), I have SHTF bags and SHTF plan with my neighbors/friends - there's strong gang presence in all of California and I figure they will do whatever they like if LE/military cannot restore order quickly (been there and done that with LA riot).

Last year, my work (state of California), ran an 8+ earth quake drill and deemed that traffic alone into metropolitan cities may easily be delayed for days, possibly weeks. Can't imagine days/weeks with no 911/LE and what may happen to citizens who can't defend themselves.

Rexster
March 6, 2010, 02:40 PM
It depends on the pistol, and which hand I am using as the weapon hand. I use a couple of P229 SAS pistols for carry, and those slicked/rounded slides are difficult to slingshot or do an overhand/"power stroke" technique, especially when wearing gloves, or with perspiring bare hands. My hand has slipped off the rear of a P229 SAS slide, and I have sometimes responded by hitting the slide release, and sometimes going to overhand again. My P229s with sharper cocking serrations work well with the overhand technique. Either way, I am more likely to use the slide stop/release in right-hand mode, and overhand in lefty mode. This may sound schizophrenic, but I rarely get crossed-up; everything runs smoothly enough.

With a 1911, out of long habit, I often revert to using the slide stop/release, even though I have "trained" otherwise for years. I learned handgunning first with 1911s, in the early 1980's, and learned to release the slide with the slide stop/release. I didn't do otherwise until sometime in the late 1990's.

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