I Tried the 9mm and Liked It...Feeling Guilty :)


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rockhound758
February 28, 2010, 10:33 PM
Folks:

Okay, I'm a long-time .45, .357, .44 and .40 guy...never had much use for the 9mm and will STILL keep my XDM .40 as my home defense gun (with Ranger ammo)...BUT I recently got my CCW and have been thinking through weapons. Was planning on carrying a 4" SS Champion (shoots straight as anything) but it's kind of heavy, so I rented the G19 and G23 today. Years ago I owned a G22 but traded it in for another weapon.

So, long story short, I shot the G23 just fine today, but the G19 was like magic. Very fast follow up shots, VERY accurate rapid fire, and while I don't mind the G23's recoil, the 9 is noticeably less and seems quicker for follow up. I'm sure with training the G23 would be equally great, but seeing as how I don't yet have a 9mm, AND thinking I might want to have one since ammo is readily available, I'm probably gonna pick one up.

That said, I'm feeling a bit guilty about liking the 9mm...is there some place here on THR I can go for absolution? :)

Have a good night all!

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wgp
February 28, 2010, 10:40 PM
None needed. Go with it. I usually carry a .45 but have no issues with a 9, .38+P or even .380 when that fits better. No question that I shoot the 9 better than the .45 (could be my customized HiPower is just that much more accurate). Pick good ammo and enjoy the 9.

duns
February 28, 2010, 10:57 PM
OP, if you mean the 9mm is considered puny, then my view on it is there is no clear winner in the caliber wars. Although i don't have much hands on experience with guns as yet, I've done a lot of reading on the subject. I think the increased shootability of the 9mm may more than compensate for any lack of ballistic efficiency compared with a caliber that begins with a 4 (or the 357 caliber). And you get to pack more rounds and the ammo is cheaper.

Boats
February 28, 2010, 11:24 PM
I'm primarily a .45ACP and .357 Magnum shooter myself, but I love the 9mm on its own terms too.

I'd never voluntarily rely upon it in FMJ, but with modern construction hollow points it holds its own.

W.E.G.
February 28, 2010, 11:25 PM
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/Glock/kool_aidGlock.jpg

rha600
February 28, 2010, 11:26 PM
Try shooting a PX4. I shot a rented G19 and the recoil from my PX4 is slightly less. At least it seems like it.

bds
February 28, 2010, 11:29 PM
I have Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels in my G22/G27 to shoot 9mm for practice and I love it!

Cheaper to shoot and I can load them fairly hot to give me a good comparable light 40S&W load for practice.

If it puts a grin/smile on your face, keep on shooting! :D

Tilos
February 28, 2010, 11:30 PM
This is the 2nd time today for me.
This is hard but I'm gonna do it:o

My name is Tilos.. and I have, shoot, and like a 9mm gun:o
I feel better already:uhoh:

I bought a 9mm drop in barrel and G19 Mag for my Glock 23.
I have shot more than 3000 rounds through it and it would take me at least 30 minutes to even FIND the stock 40 barrel for it!

Buy the G23 and for the price of a barrel and mag ($130+/-) have a G19 to shoot.
You can't beat two guns in one.

Tilos

NG VI
March 1, 2010, 12:12 AM
My next couple of pistols will be 9mm, having been a longtime .40 fanboy I am beginning to switch tracks a bit, I don't believe the 9mm is weak, or worse as a defense cartridge than .40 or .45, because as cool as it is to have a cartridge that begins in .4. it's cooler to have significantly cheaper ammunition, lower recoil, higher capacity in the same size frame, all of those are great things.

And it works fine on people provided you don't load it like a jackass or according to NJ state law.

JohnKSa
March 1, 2010, 12:16 AM
...while I don't mind the G23's recoil, the 9 is noticeably less and seems quicker for follow up.Yup, if shooting a 9mm weren't an advantage there wouldn't be power factor limits or penalties for lower power factors in practical shooting disciplines.I'm sure with training the G23 would be equally great...Can you train with the G23 until one day you're as good with the G21 as you are with the G19 today? Yes. But when you've reached that level of proficiency the G19 will still recoil less and let you follow up faster. You can't beat physics.

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 12:23 AM
according to NJ state law.



Sorry but I don't understand --- no hollow points in NJ ???

NG VI
March 1, 2010, 12:42 AM
Not for carry, I don't know, their laws about it are all screwy, hollow points are ok for range use, and possibly home defense, it's a gray area, but not out and about I think.

I don't know, someone who knows more about it will come along. All I know is that it's all mixed up.

Gunfighter123
March 1, 2010, 01:05 AM
And I thought we had it bad in Illinois !!!!

Colton White
March 1, 2010, 01:55 AM
Some lady in NJ was fined 1000 per hollow point she had in her gun...
good thing it was only a J frame haha

nwilliams
March 1, 2010, 02:17 AM
I'm a huge fan of the 9mm, always have been.

I don't care what anyone says, the 9mm has proved its worth many times over. I love the round for target shooting because it's relatively cheap and plentiful and I'm not afraid to carry 9mm as a defensive round. My primary ccw is a 9mm S&W 3914.

Fremmer
March 1, 2010, 02:55 AM
I'm glad you feel guilty. Now go buy a Smith & Wesson 952 so that I'll feel less guilty about wanting one of 'em. :D

Jed Carter
March 1, 2010, 05:59 AM
I started with a S&W 39-2, then .357 revolvers and then .40 S&W SIG , finally the M1911 in .45 acp. Now I shoot in IDPA and IPSC matches, Glock G34 soft shooting, and laser straight is my choice. My former carry weapon was a SIG P232 .380, now I use a CZ 75D PCR 9mm ( traded a S&W 59 for it). I have rekindled the old friendship with the 9mm, so much in fact I'm now looking at a 1911 chambered for 9mm. Get the G19, I almost did, would have if the PCR had not jumped into my hand, but I am done buying CZ, (have the best), not finished buying Glock.

dom1104
March 1, 2010, 08:30 AM
I think this typifies the .45 guys, the .45 is such a part of their persona they feel guilty if they switch :)

Like a guy who works at Ford who cant admit he enjoyed driving his buddies Toyota.

Either way, welcome to the world of cheap WWB ammo. :)

19-3Ben
March 1, 2010, 08:30 AM
Sorry but I don't understand --- no hollow points in NJ ???

Exactly. They're illegal there.

lilidiot
March 1, 2010, 08:39 AM
Just another stupid Liberal Gun Grabbing Mindset State. Please don't tell them that we won a few wars and now are still using FMJ in our military to kill people!

Jim PHL
March 1, 2010, 08:47 AM
For quite a while the only autos I owned/shot other than .22's were 1911-style .45's. I picked up a S+W 3913 a while ago just because it was a gun I always liked the looks and feel of. So it was originally the gun, not the caliber, that rekindled my interest in 9mm, but now that interest is going strong. Since getting that 3913 I have added two more 9mm's and another is on its way. When I used to fret over carrying a "small caliber" I reminded myself how many so-called "experts" relied heavily on .38 snubs and .380's in their pockets. The main reason I went to one of my nines for carry is that I was enjoying, handling and shooting them the most when I got to the range. Makes sense to me to carry what I am most comfortable and familiar with.

SOUTHPAW
March 1, 2010, 11:52 AM
My 1911 is a hair-trigger tac-driver, my .357 is a giggle-inducing hand cannon...

My xD-M 9... I like it because ammo is cheaper than the above mentioned, it is a piece of cake to take down, it's been dead nuts reliable with over 3000 rounds and ZERO malfunctions, it hits what I aim at every time, and holds 20 rounds to boot.

The one thing I hate about it... Takes too long to reload a magazine! :D

Ben86
March 1, 2010, 12:12 PM
Don't feel guilty at all, welcome to the club. If I could only pick one handgun caliber it would be 9mm. I really don't get the NJ state law prohibiting hollow points. Wouldn't the public be safer if people didn't use over penetrating fmj and attackers of innocent civilians were stopped more quickly?

AJChenMPH
March 1, 2010, 01:10 PM
I decided long ago that 9mm was perfectly acceptable for carry (heck, if an NYPD officer can take down a guy in Times Square with 9mm...works for me!) and never looked back. G19, S&W 6906 and a Taurus PT-709 Slim get rotated for carry on a regular basis (I might start leaving the 6906 in the safe, though -- I point and aim the G19 much more naturally than the 6906).

Sorry but I don't understand --- no hollow points in NJ ???

Exactly. They're illegal there.

Well, sort of. They're illegal for personal CCW there -- but since NJ is practically a non-issue state, it doesn't really matter. You can legally own them and shoot them at the range, though. If you happen to be one of the few people issued a CCW permit in NJ, you can only carry FMJ.

http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html

From my understanding, only NJ LEO's are allowed to carry HP ammo, and I'm not even sure that they're allowed to carry them off-duty. (Gotta ask a retired NJ cop that I work with.) Even if you're a non-NJ LEO or a retired NJ LEO carrying in NJ under LEOSA, you're supposed to carry FMJ ammo only. So glad I moved out of the state recently.

Usual disclaimers: I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, nor do I sleep with one...

ForumSurfer
March 1, 2010, 01:22 PM
Takes too long to reload a magazine!

I just bought my first high capacity uber nine. I was shocked at how long it takes me to load up four mags compared to my 1911's. I was also equally shocked at the size of my brass pile when I unloaded those same 4 mags for storage.

RobMoore
March 1, 2010, 01:32 PM
Buy the maglula pistol mag loader and you won't take so long.

Water-Man
March 1, 2010, 01:45 PM
The 9mm gets the job done. Not as good as the .45 though! :neener:

easyg
March 1, 2010, 03:08 PM
So, long story short, I shot the G23 just fine today, but the G19 was like magic. Very fast follow up shots, VERY accurate rapid fire, and while I don't mind the G23's recoil, the 9 is noticeably less and seems quicker for follow up.
I'm sure the 9mm was easier to shoot....it's a weaker caliber.
A .22 is even easier to shoot well.

Nothing's for free....
When you shoot a more powerful caliber you're going to pay in greater recoil

Yeah, the 9mm is a serious round, and it has put many a man six feet under.
But from all that I have ever seen, read, or heard, in real world shootings, it just doesn't perform as well a the .40S&W or the .45ACP, or even the .357Sig.

..., but seeing as how I don't yet have a 9mm, AND thinking I might want to have one since ammo is readily available, I'm probably gonna pick one up.
You might want to check around first.
Around here I'm still seeing .40 and .357Sig, but I haven't seen .380, 9mm, or .45 ammo on the shelves in a quite a while.

Strahley
March 1, 2010, 03:35 PM
Ah, the magic of the Glock 19. Should be one in every collection :)

Quadkid
March 1, 2010, 03:44 PM
I don't feel guilty when I spend $11 on a box of 9mm when my buddy spends $27 on a box of .45. I love shooting my 9mm P01 as much as my .45 1911.

Motownfire
March 1, 2010, 04:27 PM
Don't feel guilty. For the last 7+ years have shot nothing but .40S&W (G22,G23 & my G27). I have a lonewolf 40-9 barrel that I used for range time before I started re loading .40S&W.

My fiance carries a G26 and loves it. It's a lot of fun shooting her G26, and it shoots well.

SOUTHPAW
March 1, 2010, 11:04 PM
You might want to check around first.
Around here I'm still seeing .40 and .357Sig, but I haven't seen .380, 9mm, or .45 ammo on the shelves in a quite a while.


Good point. Here in CT, .40 is the most common... 9mm and .45 tend to be scarce at the big-box stores like WalMart and Dicks, with .380 being the most elusive.

1SOW
March 1, 2010, 11:39 PM
Southpaw: Get an uplula reloader. You won't believe how fast it can pump 18 rds into a mag with a little practice--and no sore fingers.

SOUTHPAW
March 1, 2010, 11:42 PM
Southpaw: Get an uplula reloader. You won't believe how fast it can pump 18 rds into a mag with a little practice--and no sore fingers.
Thanks, how much faster is it than the stocker...?

lwknight
March 2, 2010, 02:17 AM
You are not undergunned with a 9mm. Unless you have 20+ year old ammo or handloaded ammo, you probably have some watered down lawyer loads even for .357 magnum. It is downright shameful that the once mighty 357 magnum is now very little more than a +P+ 9mm.
Just read the side of the box. 357 magnum 125 JHP 1250 fps. They used to be 1600 or so. 9mm +P+ 124 grain JHP 1300 fps. What gives?
You have to buy buffalo bore ammo or roll yer own to get full power.

JohnhenrySTL
March 2, 2010, 04:23 AM
I think a 9mm would be fine to put somebody down. I have had enough experience hunting, to know that big powerfull bullets mean more here on the internet than they do in the process of killing. I carry a Sig p229, it shoots 40's. At the time I bought it, 40's were available and 9's werent. I also just recently purchased a cz82 which shoots 9x18, which is very similar to a 9mm. Don't ever want to shoot somebody, but if I did, and was willing to deal with the consequences, I would feel fine using my 9x18. I was told in my original hunter's safety class, that .22s kill more people in America than any other round year after year. Thanks all for keeping it enertaining. If anybody has owned and knows their way around Polish Tokorev's please let me know.

Autolycus
March 2, 2010, 05:24 AM
I love the 9mm. I was a diehard .40 S&W guy for a long while. But after doing a little research and seeing how much money I would save by switching to 9mm it became my round of choice. I am planning on standardizing on 9mm and .45 ACP guns. Of course the revolvers will be in different calibers.

FenderTK421
March 2, 2010, 05:39 AM
I'm a pretty die-hard .45 guy. Nothing against the 9mm really, in fact, I got one for my girlfriend as a 'starter gun'. I found our perceptions of recoil odd though - I will gladly (If I can afford it anymore) shoot 500 rounds through any of my .45's and have a huge grin on my face when done. The girl HATES all of my .45's but finds the 9mm quite comfortable. After 100 rounds through the 9mm my wrists hurt, and I am used to shooting some pretty big calibers, up to .454. For me the .45 has a very pleasant push to it, the 9mm has a small but sharp crack or snap to it. Yes, there is less perceived recoil w/ the 9mm, but I personally find it more punishing than the push recoil associated w/ the .45's. That being said, I find myself shooting her 9mm more and more often as the ammunition is now far more affordable than the .45. I have actually been thinking of adding a couple of new 9mm's to the collection just because of ammo price/availability. And yes, I do feel like a dirty traitor... :o

SOUTHPAW
March 2, 2010, 09:23 AM
As far as feeling "under gunned", with my xDm, I feel quite confident with my 19+1 rounds of Federal HP's. I love my .45 and .357 but with the firepower that my 9mm can put out from only one magazine, I feel pretty darn good if I need to grab it in a pinch. ;)

easyg
March 2, 2010, 09:37 AM
As far as feeling "under gunned", with my xDm, I feel quite confident with my 19+1 rounds of Federal HP's. I love my .45 and .357 but with the firepower that my 9mm can put out from only one magazine, I feel pretty darn good if I need to grab it in a pinch.
But here's the problem....

When using a semi, with a round in the chamber, you're about 99.99% likely to get off at least the first shot without any type of malfunction.

But you might experience a failure-to-eject or failure-to-load or some other malfunction on the second loading/shot.

Personally, I would rather that all important first shot be a .40, .45, or .357Sig than a 9mm.

Just something to think about.

Kingofthehill
March 2, 2010, 09:53 AM
well you fell for a heck of a gun.

The glock 19 is a fantastic pistol. the glock 19 and 23 are the only glock's i like and can shoot well.

JOe

SOUTHPAW
March 2, 2010, 10:35 AM
But here's the problem....

When using a semi, with a round in the chamber, you're about 99.99% likely to get off at least the first shot without any type of malfunction.

But you might experience a failure-to-eject or failure-to-load or some other malfunction on the second loading/shot.

Personally, I would rather that all important first shot be a .40, .45, or .357Sig than a 9mm.

Just something to think about.
Valid points, but my xD has over 3000 rounds with ZERO malfunctions. My 1911 has had about 4-5 FTE's out of 650. Now like you said, if only one shot gets out of the barrel it might as well be a big one... But the chances of my 9mm failing given it's track record, is minimal at best. Either way, I use a .357 wheelgun as my CC and bedside gun. Reliability with capacity as a trade off... ;)

BlayGlock
March 2, 2010, 12:24 PM
I personally think that the G19 is the best of the Glock line. 124 gr +p speer gold dot is a great self defense round and I carry it all the time without feeling under-gunned.

nitetrane98
March 2, 2010, 12:48 PM
LOL!! Heck, I'm a "If it goes bang diehard" Never shot a handgun I didn't like, I have shot some I wouldn't buy. Of course we all have preferences re: caliber.

searcher451
March 2, 2010, 12:59 PM
I'm not sure why the OP would feel guilty. Some of my best friends -- and most frequent range companions -- are 9mm. It has been a worthy, proven round for a long, long time.

Ben86
March 2, 2010, 03:47 PM
When using a semi, with a round in the chamber, you're about 99.99% likely to get off at least the first shot without any type of malfunction.

But you might experience a failure-to-eject or failure-to-load or some other malfunction on the second loading/shot.


Yes and I might get struck by lightning or hit by a stray bullet. The odds of an automatic, that has proven itself extremely reliable, malfunctioning at the exact moment I need it are so slim that its worth disregarding that fear in order to reap the benefits of the technology.

easyg
March 2, 2010, 04:24 PM
Yes and I might get struck by lightning or hit by a stray bullet. The odds of an automatic, that has proven itself extremely reliable, malfunctioning at the exact moment I need it are so slim that its worth disregarding that fear in order to reap the benefits of the technology.
Actually, I don't think the odds of an auto malfunctioning are all that slim at all.

There's a very good reason that those who use autos to seek and eliminate the bad guys also routinely, and frequently, practice malfunction drills.

Take 20 guys with semi's to the range on any given day and I'll bet that at least one of them will have at least one malfunction when shooting, be it ammo related, magazine related, weapon related, or user related.

SOUTHPAW
March 2, 2010, 05:06 PM
Actually, I don't think the odds of an auto malfunctioning are all that slim at all.

There's a very good reason that those who use autos to seek and eliminate the bad guys also routinely, and frequently, practice malfunction drills.

Take 20 guys with semi's to the range on any given day and I'll bet that at least one of them will have at least one malfunction when shooting, be it ammo related, magazine related, weapon related, or user related.
Honestly, I have to side with Ben. The benefits of an automatic firearm (especially a reliable one) greatly outnumber the risk of a malfunction. Life is all about playing the odds, and the odds of the above mentioned indefinitely in your favor of it going bang when you pull the trigger.

Otherwise LE and Military would be using revolvers and bolt-action rifles... Exclusively.

Geno
March 2, 2010, 05:07 PM
rockhound758:

This is my G19C, with a 2.5 pound trigger. The trigger “re-sets” in 1/8th inch! This pistol has such ease of control that I can fire 3, double-taps per second with it. This is my most recent point-shoot session. This target is 50 rounds, fired at 10 yards, 3-double-taps per second. Others who fire this pistol, with this trigger, are astonished. It will spoil you forever. This is the pistol I take to my Advanced Tactical Shooting courses. It always makes an impression.

Geno

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx63/Geno20101960/Point%20Shooting%20G19C/100_0215.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx63/Geno20101960/Point%20Shooting%20G19C/100_0219.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx63/Geno20101960/Point%20Shooting%20G19C/100_0220.jpg

duns
March 2, 2010, 05:30 PM
The benefits of an automatic firearm (especially a reliable one) greatly outnumber the risk of a malfunction. Life is all about playing the odds, and the odds of the above mentioned indefinitely in your favor of it going bang when you pull the trigger. Otherwise LE and Military would be using revolvers and bolt-action rifles... Exclusively.
The LE/military argument is fallacious for a number of reasons. For one thing, LE/military personnel often have more than one weapon on them and they often also have other personnel to cover them. (You said "automatic" but I am sure you meant "semi-automatic".)

Geno
March 2, 2010, 05:35 PM
The instructor for our Advanced Tactical Shooting course has had 3 autoload pistols fail, and 3 revolvers fail in his career. He argues that both platforms are equally liable to failures. That handguns can and will eventually fail, is why we should carry at least 1 back-up. He carries up to 5 pistols (a primary, a back-up, and up to 3 bugs).

Geno

duns
March 2, 2010, 05:54 PM
The instructor for our Advanced Tactical Shooting course has had 3 autoload pistols fail, and 3 revolvers fail in his career. He argues that both platforms are equally liable to failures.
Both can fail but surely no one would argue that it is equally likely on a per shot basis?
That handguns can and will eventually fail, is why we should carry at least 1 back-up.
I agree with that.
He carries up to 5 pistols (a primary, a back-up, and up to 3 bugs).
That's over the top. No harm done if he can carry them, but the chances of two weapons of different designs failing in the same gun fight is low enough for me especially if one of them is a revolver.

Geno
March 2, 2010, 06:26 PM
duns:

No doubt over the top! This particular instructor is hard-core to the max! I think he detailed that he was carrying the following:

G17 (primary)
G19 (back-up)
P3AT (right ankle)
P3AT (left ankle)
.22 Mag Mini-revolver (pocket)

By the way, I have to correct myself here. The target was 7 yards! Not 10 yards. See why I started writing the details on the targets?!

Sorry for the error!

Geno

NG VI
March 2, 2010, 07:20 PM
There's a very good reason that those who use autos to seek and eliminate the bad guys also routinely, and frequently, practice malfunction drills.

Take 20 guys with semi's to the range on any given day and I'll bet that at least one of them will have at least one malfunction when shooting, be it ammo related, magazine related, weapon related, or user related.

Sounds pretty reliable to me. Who knows what the dumb bastard did to his pistol to get it to malfunction. Kind of like the horror stories about ARs being jammomatics, yet all through Basic, AIT, qualifications, and practice with the State Marksmanship Team a few times, plus the Bargain Bin CMMG I owned, I have only experienced a single malfunction, and I can't remember what it was, only that it took me about three seconds to clear it.

I don't know, maybe I'm just too young to be traumatized by faulty designs that plagued all the older members of THR, but modern pistols are generally pretty flawless, just different flavors of it.

NG VI
March 2, 2010, 07:22 PM
Oh and Geno, I read your post before I spotted the name on it, at first I was reading it and thinking, this guy is almost certainly exaggerating, three pairs of shots per second into a group like that, even at seven yards? Ridiculous.

I somehow don't think you are exaggerating at all. Strong work on that target.

atomd
March 2, 2010, 07:37 PM
He carries up to 5 pistols (a primary, a back-up, and up to 3 bugs).

Does he wear suspenders and a belt just in case? Sounds like a real character to me.

stchman
March 2, 2010, 08:37 PM
Considering that the 40S&W is about 10% more powerful than a 9mm the 9mm makes more sense.

If you really need more power than a 9mm step up to a .45ACP.

JohnhenrySTL
March 3, 2010, 05:22 AM
I wonder what all these people are doing to there guns to where they have to be so concerned about them failing all the time? Perhaps it's a fear that no amount of pistols will solve. As far as automatic pistols, oops, I mean semi-automatic pistols (for the person who earlier was not sure which were being talked about) are concerned, if there made good, and cleaned atleast one fifth the suggested amount, I promise, you will be fine. It seems like it's when people attempt to make them better, they tend to start jamming and acting silly.

I also like to shoot revolvers. I was reminded this past weekend to what extent I enjoy shooting them. I was shooting reloaded 38's out of a six inch barreled .357 Taures. I also have equal confidence, if not more, that my Sig will protect my life, or the life of somebody in my party just as well as any revolver.

SEMI-automatic pistols, have less working parts than a revolver. They shoot faster, there much easier to carry, and used by the military. Something tells me there is a good reason, possibly several solid reasons that our military and police force converted to them. I like revolvers too.

I grew up around them, my dad told me automatics jammed, I believed him. Back in the first hundred years of massed produced ammo, those rounds were not yet subject to modern day quality contol. Thet might have caused autos to jam. I don't know. That was then this is now.

NWCP
March 3, 2010, 05:54 AM
I own numerous pistols in a variety of calibers. The 9mm is still my favorite range day pistol and often serves as my carry piece. I like both high capacity as well as single stack 9s. Besides shooting them well I find the price of ammo makes the 9mm that much more desirable. I still like my .40 and .45ACPs and practice with them monthly, but the 9mm is my go to gun for weekly range visits.

duns
March 3, 2010, 06:52 AM
I wonder what all these people are doing to there guns to where they have to be so concerned about them failing all the time? Perhaps it's a fear that no amount of pistols will solve. As far as automatic pistols, oops, I mean semi-automatic pistols (for the person who earlier was not sure which were being talked about) are concerned, if there made good, and cleaned atleast one fifth the suggested amount, I promise, you will be fine. It seems like it's when people attempt to make them better, they tend to start jamming and acting silly.

I also like to shoot revolvers. I was reminded this past weekend to what extent I enjoy shooting them. I was shooting reloaded 38's out of a six inch barreled .357 Taures. I also have equal confidence, if not more, that my Sig will protect my life, or the life of somebody in my party just as well as any revolver.

SEMI-automatic pistols, have less working parts than a revolver. They shoot faster, there much easier to carry, and used by the military. Something tells me there is a good reason, possibly several solid reasons that our military and police force converted to them. I like revolvers too.

I grew up around them, my dad told me automatics jammed, I believed him. Back in the first hundred years of massed produced ammo, those rounds were not yet subject to modern day quality contol. Thet might have caused autos to jam. I don't know. That was then this is now.
Hi JohnHenry,
I think your sarcastic remark regarding the difference between automatic and semi-automatic was aimed at me. I'm new to firearms but believe there is a distinction between automatic and semi-automatic. If people call them both "automatics" and nobody gets confused, I didn't know that.

You ask why people are fearful about their semi-automatic pistols failing and are more confident in their revolvers. Well, as I said I don't have much experience, but my Beretta 92FS had numerous failures to feed until it had about 140 rounds fired through it. So there is actual experience as a foundation for concern ("fear" is too emotive). Then, we can all look theoretically at the possible causes for failure to fire. A semi-auto has failure mechanisms that don't affect a revolver - magazine failures, limp wrist, ammo sensitivity, etc. You also indicate that a semi-auto needs to be reasonably clean to work and I think revolvers may be rather less sensitive to cleanliness.

You say that semi-autos have less working parts than a revolver. Please could you give an example as I find that surprising? But as I say I'm a newbie so I could well be wrong.

I wonder if you are forgetting how many little problems you had with your semi-auto at the range? Did you have to break it in before it became reliable? How about your revolvers - did they need the same breaking in or were they faultless from the start? Did you ever experience a revolver malfunction? What in your experience is the ratio of revolver malfunctions to semi-auto malfunctions? If you tell me, you've never had a failure from either, I won't believe you (unless you've hardly ever shot a gun).

Basically, your assertion that a semi-auto is as reliable as a revolver is just opinion unless you have some statistics or at least good armchair logic to back it up.

CajunBass
March 3, 2010, 08:05 AM
The one thing I hate about it... Takes too long to reload a magazine!

Somebody else has probably mentioned it, but yea, it takes a while to load those magazines, and the other down side is how quickly you can empty them. Man, a box of ammo don't last long when you're using 15 round mags.

Geno
March 3, 2010, 08:17 AM
Thanks NG VI.

For the past several months I have been working 90%+ with my G19C, and G17. Mostly, the G19C. I haven't carried by 1911s much at all. I had just had new Trijicon sights installed on this G19C, and wanted to assure that they weren't going to fly off...or if they did, to have it happen there. :D It wouldn't much matter as in point shooting, we usually apply tape over the sights (front and rear). I was more concerned that a screw might back-out and jam it up.

Every once in a while I get the fantasy going of buying a G17C with a 2.5 Lb, quick reset trigger! Stop me here, right?! Sheesh! What do I need another Glock for?! :o Regarding exaggerate, nope. I'm one of the few customers who Ray allows to shoot as rapidly as can be in controlled fashion. Last time "Owen" and I shot there, the worker walked in and said, "Oh, Geno! Okay...you guys can shoot as fast as you want!". :) My favorite to is load up 5, 33-round magazines, and shoot double-time to some hot-rockin' 1980s music...shooting to the beat. <<I know! I admit that I am slightly strange. Okay, pretty strange; well, maybe freaking weird!!>> We usually do warn the "next-door" lanes of shootists that we will be having a "blast-fest". "MikePGS" has gone to "Blast-Fest" with me too.

Maybe I should rent a G17C today. You know, just for fun of course...not to purchase it. :)

Geno

lilidiot
March 3, 2010, 08:34 AM
Considering that the 40S&W is about 10% more powerful than a 9mm the 9mm makes more sense.

If you really need more power than a 9mm step up to a .45ACP.
What?:scrutiny: When did the .40 become 10% more powerful than the 9 mm. They yielded about the same results in the box of truth bullet penetration and expansion tests.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Take a look for yourself please. When did the .45 become more powerful? It is slower with a lousy trajectory. A 9x17 is faster and straighter.

SOUTHPAW
March 3, 2010, 08:42 AM
My 1911 in .45ACP is my most accurate pistol. My xDm 9mm is almost as accurate and is the most reliable of my pistols...

lilidiot
March 3, 2010, 08:50 AM
If you really want to see accuracy try the Kel-Tec SUB-2000 9x19 Luger Carbine that has a 16 inch barrel. How about 2 inch groups at 100 yards!:D

SOUTHPAW
March 3, 2010, 09:47 AM
If you really want to see accuracy try the Kel-Tec SUB-2000 9x19 Luger Carbine that has a 16 inch barrel. How about 2 inch groups at 100 yards!:D
Yeah I bet, but you can't compare long guns to pistols... Apples and oranges! ;)

rockhound758
March 4, 2010, 01:38 AM
EasyG:

As I said in my original post, I've always been a .4x guy...been shooting my full house .44 mag reloads for 20+ years, so I'm not stranger to recoil and it doesn't bother me. But the 9 did intrigue me, and for concealed carry, with good ammo, I think it's a solid choice. As for practice ammo, a store here in Columbus has tons of 124g for $11 a box...maybe not QUITE as low as Wally World but not bad. :)

Justin
March 4, 2010, 02:39 AM
Considering that the 40S&W is about 10% more powerful than a 9mm the 9mm makes more sense.

If you really need more power than a 9mm step up to a .45ACP.

[Citation Needed] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_needed)

JohnhenrySTL
March 4, 2010, 03:03 AM
Hello Duns,

Thank you for taking the time to acknowledge me. I am new to THR, and not yet effective working it. I hope this goes through.

My remark about semi-autos versus autos was sacrcastic. I apoligize for that. I am a history major in school. I often put up with younger cocky people acting as if they don't know what I am talking about if I do not pronounce a word the way they think I should. I assumed you were correcting people as an attempt to one up them. I see now I was wrong.

As far as revolvers having more parts than automatics. I always assumed autos had more. I have seen revolvers taken completly apart on some occasions. They look about like a clock. One night I was bored and looked it up. I don't remember where. The diagram did show a revolver having way more parts. They are small and within the cocking assembly, the trigger housing, and the rotating of the cylinder.

I certainly have had guns jam. My guns that mean the most to me, like guns I shot first as a kid, and used to hunt, still jam. I have a .22 remighton model 556 that jams if firing shorts. I had a browing auto-5 that didn't like certain ammo. I used these for hunting animals, not people that could kill me. I bet if I focused on them, and was concerned enough to correct it, I could get them to stop jamming.

I just bought a Tokerev that jams often, I blame it on poor ammo and cosmoline. Im going to clean it up, after it fires a thousand rounds in a row without a malfunction I will consider it kind of safe. After I put several thousand more rounds through it, I will know it is safe. I have a sig model 229 that has never jammed one time. I have put thousands of rounds through it. I keep it cleaner than I need to. My point is this.

Any Gun will jam. However if there clean and you shoot it thousands of times without it jamming, I would feel safe trusting my life to it. Is it more reliable than a revolver? I don't know. Some of my revolvers I have shot so many times do seem to jam more. I don't clean them as often, and shoot cheap ammo through them because I dont think of them as conceal and carry guns. Its not something I concern myself with. If I was willing to wear a huge coat all the time, I would clean them very well, shoot them several hundred times, spend a bunch of money on quality ammo, if I had no problems after that I would feel safe trusting it.

I know several people, non gun people, who carry tiny revolvers claiming they are safer than autos. A tenth of one percent safer, OR NOT, isnt a huge concern of mine. These same people who can barely hit a target, while relaxing amongst friends at a range, with one of those tiny little double action only things, for some reason think there safe cause they have a revolver not an auto. I honestly don't think you can claim one is more likely to jam than another. I think there is more to consider. I think its needs to be a good enough Gun to not jam if properly maintained and operated, while able to be carried, and shot good enough to save somebodies life. I like those berretas. I've never owned one, but shot some of my buddies a couple of times. Ive herd they can have magizine proublems. Im sure if you find the right magizine that works, the gun will be reliable enough to trust your life to. Thanks for reading this. Have fun and be safe shooting.

LHshot
March 5, 2010, 07:41 AM
FYI, that xdm in 9mm is a beaut, too

SOUTHPAW
March 5, 2010, 09:36 AM
FYI, that xdm in 9mm is a beaut, too
I love mine! :)

Taurus_9mm
March 5, 2010, 08:23 PM
I try to spread the love equally between the 9mm, 40S&W and 45 ACP. :D

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