Gatling gun....NFA?


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RDCL
March 1, 2010, 10:42 PM
Would a US Civil War type hand-crank operated Gatling gun be considered an NFA weapon?

I'm talking either original or re-pro.

(No....I do not want one:).....just curious)


Russ

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Diamondback6
March 1, 2010, 10:49 PM
IIRC, because you have to be manually turning the crank to keep it firing, it's not.

Put an electric motor on it, though, and you got NFA for sure...

nbkky71
March 1, 2010, 11:01 PM
quoted from an ATF ruling...

"ATF and its predecessor agency, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), have historically held that the original, crank-operated Gatling Gun, and replicas thereof, are not automatic firearms or machineguns as defined. See Rev. Rul. 55-528, 1955-2 C.B. 482. The original Gatling Gun is a rapid-firing, hand-operated weapon. The rate of fire is regulated by the rapidity of the hand cranking movement, manually controlled by the operator. It is not a "machinegun" as that term is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) because it is not a weapon that fires automatically"

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2004-5.html

lions
March 1, 2010, 11:29 PM
If I'm not mistaken someone makes a gatling gun crank that can be fitted on a Ruger 10/22. It is called a BMF activator or something like that. With the crank there is an action that causes each manipulation of the "trigger" and therefore each shot to be fired individually. That is not within the current definition of a NFA firearm.

John Wayne
March 1, 2010, 11:55 PM
Wouldn't anything made before 1899 be exempt anyway?

sv51macross
March 1, 2010, 11:58 PM
^ Only if it was registered with ATF.

You know, .223/5.56 doesn't have much recoil either...a firm grip on the handguard (or a Magpul AFG) putting pressure into your shoulder...hand crank and a C-Mag...

JWF III
March 2, 2010, 08:47 AM
Wouldn't anything made before 1899 be exempt anyway?

No, you still have to pay the $200 tax. Same goes wit C&R guns. There is a large list of FA's that will qualify for C&R. They can be shipped directly to your house (C&R FFL holders). But you still have to fill out the forms and pay the taxes.

Wyman

Lee Roder
March 2, 2010, 09:41 AM
Really? Is an antique machine gun a "firearm"? Did it need to be registered?

jmorris
March 2, 2010, 09:46 AM
A crank is ok, AW Sim is on hold and the Akins accelerator is a no go. The only thing they all have in common is that they work on semiautos.

Here's a crank I built for a semi 1919.
http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/?action=view&current=jM1919.flv

There is a real good thread on uzitalk.com step by step build of a 45 acp gatling gun.

Ditch-Tiger
March 2, 2010, 07:14 PM
Technically, an old style Gatling gun is just a bunch of single shot rifles...I'm just say'n.

RDCL
March 2, 2010, 07:27 PM
I'm suprised it's not a restricted item. Don't get me wrong.....I'm glad it's permissible with ATF to own for those whom so desire owning.....but in my mind it IS a machine gun. Hand-cranked or not. I'm guessing it'd spit out shots as fast as one could crank.

.......I realize the same could be said for the average semi-auto rifle, yet an m3 grease gun is slower still on full auto......an that is definetly a machine gun and strictly controlled.


Russ

7.62 Nato
March 2, 2010, 07:55 PM
It's not how fast it can be fired, it's how it fires.

WardenWolf
March 2, 2010, 08:16 PM
The difference, in the ATF's eyes, is that you still must perform a complex action that requires constant movement of the hand in order to keep the gun firing. Thus it is more akin to multiple trigger pulls than a single trigger pull where you simply hold down the trigger. Gattling guns and other hand-crank-fired guns are thus not machine guns. Note that some states have laws restricting or barring "trigger actuators", the technical term used for those 10/22 cranks. You should check local laws before ordering or installing one.

spartywrx
March 2, 2010, 09:50 PM
There's a guy who makes a gatling trigger mechanism for the 1919a4. It can get around 400 rounds/minute.

MattTheHat
March 2, 2010, 09:55 PM
quoted from an ATF ruling...

"ATF and its predecessor agency, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), have historically held that the original, crank-operated Gatling Gun, and replicas thereof, are not automatic firearms or machineguns as defined. See Rev. Rul. 55-528, 1955-2 C.B. 482. The original Gatling Gun is a rapid-firing, hand-operated weapon. The rate of fire is regulated by the rapidity of the hand cranking movement, manually controlled by the operator. It is not a "machinegun" as that term is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) because it is not a weapon that fires automatically"

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ng-2004-5.html

Dear GOD, I didn't need to read that!


-Matt

Ronsch
March 3, 2010, 01:45 PM
Several Civil War reenactor/Old West groups have Gatling Guns.

John Wayne
March 3, 2010, 03:36 PM
I know machine guns can be C&R but still regulated, but I thought there was an exemption for guns manufactured before a certain date...same reason why you can buy a replica 1851 Colt with no paperwork. IIRC, the exemption does not apply to working firearms which fire, or can be made to fire, current metallic cartridges (which is why a .45 LC SAA requires paperwork).

I don't know what cartridge the Gatling gun fires, or what cartridges are considered exempt from the list, but it seems like some of those provisions would apply in combination with the hand-crank exemption such that you could legally own an unregistered Gatling gun.

Were there any reliable machine guns chambered in obsolete cartridges manufactured before 1899 (?) that would be exempt?

davswn1986
June 4, 2010, 01:27 AM
If interested here is a review of the BMF activator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntBkwc-cBnc

Ian
June 4, 2010, 09:04 AM
Guns made before 1899 are legally antiques, and not regulated by the GCA. They can be mailed interstate to individuals, don't need to be logged by FFLs, etc. However, this does not apply to the NFA except where the ATF specifically says it does. For example, there are recoil-operated artillery pieces out there made prior to 1899 which still must be registered as DDs. Same with, say, original 1895 manufacture Colt potato digger machine guns.

bigfatdave
June 4, 2010, 10:49 AM
So, why isn't anyone making a .22lr chambered miniature Gatling gun?

Because if it doesn't have multiple barrels or it is just a crank on a semi-auto's trigger, I'm not interested. Designs that simply bolt onto existing guns/actions aren't Gatling guns, the Gatling will extract a dud round and load a new one,
I'd pay quite a lot for a little bitty Gatling though, I've seen videos online of one, but it appeared to be a one-off ... can I have one about the size of a good spotting scope, please?

Sam1911
June 4, 2010, 11:00 AM
So, why isn't anyone making a .22lr chambered miniature Gatling gun?


I see them from time to time at gun shows. There is usually a shovel next to the price tag for scraping folks' jaws off the floor. ...

Jim Watson
June 4, 2010, 11:41 AM
Furr Arms is said to have made about 500 Gatling Guns in calibers up to .357 Magnum.
The most popular seems to have been the 1/3 scale .22 Short.
The company is out of business, a nice one of their guns will cost $10,000+.

bigfatdave
June 4, 2010, 01:36 PM
Maybe someone can put a bug in Kahr's ear ... they are making new production M1 Carbines and (semiauto) Thompson Submachine Guns there days, aren't they?

I don't want a collector's item, I want a way to burn $100 of cheap bulk-pack .22 ammo in minutes.

JWF III
June 5, 2010, 05:34 PM
but I thought there was an exemption for guns manufactured before a certain date...same reason why you can buy a replica 1851 Colt with no paperwork. IIRC, the exemption does not apply to working firearms which fire, or can be made to fire, current metallic cartridges (which is why a .45 LC SAA requires paperwork).


The date you may be thinking of is 1899. Any gun (with the exception of NFA items), made prior to 1899, can be bought without paper work.

A replica 1851 Colt can be bought, with out paperwork, because it is not a cartridge firinng gun. Being a percussion revolver negates the need for paperwork. But make that a 1873 Colt SAA, any gun made post 1898 requires a 4473, but pre 1899 is an antique.

Someone may know better, but to my knowledge, there is no exception for which cartridge the gun fires. A cartridge firing gun made in 1900, that fires a cartridge that is (absolutely) impossible to acquire, is still a modern firearm requiring a 4473.

Wyman

ShadyScott999
June 5, 2010, 06:57 PM
A crank is ok, AW Sim is on hold and the Akins accelerator is a no go. The only thing they all have in common is that they work on semiautos.


My brother is buddies with Steve, the maker of the AW SIM. Last I heard it is no longer BATF okay.

Last story I heard the ATF was giving Steve and anyone who bought one a really hard time. I defiantly wouldn't buy one.

Sunray
June 6, 2010, 12:06 AM
"...BMF activator or something like that..." Those are evil according to the ATF's laws by regulation.
"...gatling trigger mechanism for the 1919a4..." No place to put one.

Sam1911
June 6, 2010, 07:01 AM
"...BMF activator or something like that..." Those are evil according to the ATF's laws by regulation.
No they aren't. They still activate the trigger once for each shot and are quite legal. You can buy them through Cabelas! http://www.cabelas.com/p-0005765223017a.shtml

"...gatling trigger mechanism for the 1919a4..." No place to put one.
They are add-on units. Here's one:

http://www.crankfiresystems.com/images/2008crankfire/DCP_0013.JPG

They work pretty well from what I've seen. Here's a vid: http://www.crankfiresystems.com/video/1919crank.mov

jmorris
June 6, 2010, 12:40 PM
"...gatling trigger mechanism for the 1919a4..." No place to put one.

You missed my post on page one I guess. Below is one I built as close as I could to the one above from photos.


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/th_jM1919.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/?action=view&current=jM1919.flv)


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/crankrt.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/crankr.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/cranktop.jpg

bigfatdave
June 6, 2010, 04:26 PM
Those cranks are really cool, but they aren't Gatling guns.

Now, this beauty from Furr Arms (thanks for the name, Jim Watson!) is a Gatling gun:
http://www.lakesideguns.com/t1gallery/1874.jpg

7.62 Nato
June 6, 2010, 08:36 PM
Thanks bigfatdave. I had to save that one to my gunporn collection !

bigfatdave
June 6, 2010, 10:30 PM
Isn't it beautiful?

Apparently .22short is the chambering, the price is obscene.

Seriously, why aren't these being made in .22lr or 9mm?

jmorris
June 6, 2010, 11:18 PM
I have the RG-G plans (very complete) for a .22lr Gatling gun from here http://www.gatlingguns.net/. There is also some good info at www.practicalmachinist.com on a few builds. Over at Uzitalk.com there is a fellow that has built two, his first was a 12ga the 2nd 45 acp.


These are of the RG-G .22lr one.
http://www.gatlingguns.net/images/gat2.jpg
http://www.gatlingguns.net/images/gatling7.jpg

medalguy
June 7, 2010, 12:56 AM
The crankfire units work very well on the 1919A4 semi guns, I have one and it's pretty neat.

The wording on NFA weapons requiring registration is whether the weapon will fire more than one shot with a single function of the trigger. By definition, a Gatling gun fires only one time with a single function of the trigger (crank). This also applies to the Browning machine gun crank fire units. If I turn the crank very slowly, I can fire only one single shot at a time. A "real" machine gun, however, will fire once the trigger is pulled, and continue to fire, uintil it is out of ammunition, or the trigger is released.

thegreatwrzesinski
June 27, 2010, 05:37 AM
what if the crank was foot powered? aka what if you routed the hand crank to a bike pedal to free up your other hand to help aim? you would still need to manually crank, but you would be using your feet instead of your other hand, of course this would only be practical in a towed unit/trailer unit but if it's not nfa....I've got an old trailer... :evil:

Oyeboten
June 27, 2010, 06:43 AM
It'd be like an 'Exercise Bicycle'...Lol...

Foot Powered, I think you are still alright.

Windmill Powered, might be not okay with bofatf&e.

Harley Rider 55
July 11, 2010, 01:05 AM
A couple of Ruger 10/22s and this kit from Cabelas, you're good to go.
http://www.cabelas.com/p-0034775227757a.shtml

http://vpcblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/10-22gatling.jpg

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