I need a spicier large pistol primer


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R.W.Dale
March 3, 2010, 02:38 PM
After today's first outing with the 45 win mag bolt gun it's become rather obvious that win LP primers aren't up to the task of igniting 28grs + of ww296-h110

What I need is the hottest, hardest, meanest large rifle primer made. Pretty much a LR primer in a LP cup.

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bogus mcall
March 3, 2010, 05:05 PM
So now what are u gonna do? I'veI read that Federal primers are the hotest but that's still not LR mag primer. Maybe you can modify the pocket so you can use LR mag primers.

Walkalong
March 3, 2010, 05:17 PM
I'm confused. The .458 Mag cases can take LR Mag primers, so why the LP cup reference. Ignition problems? Do you want the hottest LP or LR primer?

JimKirk
March 3, 2010, 05:18 PM
How cold is it there kroch?

I've used 28 grs of W296 under a 44 mag bullet with WLP with no problems.

I have used CCI 350 Magnums too, it may be hotter than the WLP.

Most of the time it is much warmer here, I would think. If it is too cold I stay in the house, my bones don't work good with cold.

Here's a link for Rifle primers, got to look fro the Pistol link...

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

Jimmy K

R.W.Dale
March 3, 2010, 05:26 PM
Today was a nice day in the 50's. But in spite of this I was getting 100fps + velocity spreads and was reduced to swabbing out the unburnt powder from the bore between shots.


Walkalong you're not the first to assume 45 and 458 win mag are the same. Which of course they're not.

rcmodel
March 3, 2010, 05:30 PM
Are we talking about a bolt-action chambered for the .45 WinMag Wildey Pistol cartridge?

Or the .458 WinMag elephant rifle cartridge??

If it's the auto pistol cartridge headspaced on the mouth, it just might be the lack of a firm roll crimp holding on to the bullet until the powder lights off.

At any rate, a Mag Pistol primer should light off 28 grains of H110/WW296 just fine.
That's about the going rate in a lot of .44 Mag loads with a firm roll crimp.

I'd try sizing but not expanding at all to up the neck tension to the max and see what happens.

rc

Walkalong
March 3, 2010, 05:32 PM
Well dang. I'll blame it on old eyes, and the bolt gun reference. :o

Walkalong
March 3, 2010, 05:35 PM
But in spite of this I was getting 100fps + velocity spreadsAA #9 & N110 are much easier to ignite, and have given me some good numbers. Just a thought.

rc's right. That is not much more H-110 than a .44 Mag load with 240's, and about the same with 200's.

JimKirk
March 3, 2010, 05:58 PM
Walk and Rc I had to read it twice myself, I think kroch was messing with us!

I shoot that load in my 44 mag, with a 200 gr Speer, it is stiff!

What kind of gun do you have in 45 Win mag?

Jimmy K

R.W.Dale
March 3, 2010, 06:39 PM
Are we talking about a bolt-action chambered for the .45 WinMag Wildey Pistol cartridge?

this


It's a Stevens 200 wearing a 1/28" twist 17" mcgowan bbl

dakotasin
March 3, 2010, 07:30 PM
i use cci lp mag primers for igniting heavy doses of h-110 in 50 ae, 480, and 41.

JimKirk
March 3, 2010, 07:33 PM
That would make a neet hog gun for the GA swamps! Photos?

Jimmy K

billybob44
March 3, 2010, 07:41 PM
After today's first outing with the 45 win mag bolt gun it's become rather obvious that win LP primers aren't up to the task of igniting 28grs + of ww296-h110

What I need is the hottest, hardest, meanest large rifle primer made. Pretty much a LR primer in a LP cup.
I light off 30gr. of H-110 under a Hornady 180gr. XTP with Wolf Large Pistol Mag., with great success. Just put together some of those .44's this AM.

R.W.Dale
March 3, 2010, 07:45 PM
That would make a neet hog gun for the GA swamps! Photos?

Jimmy K
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/c00d77f6.jpg


I snagged a couple packages of cci mag lp primers on the way to work just now (what the shop had)

A lot of comparisons to 44mag are being made but after some thought I'm not so sure they're valid. At similar charge, bullet weights and case capacities the pressure curve is going to drop off much more rapidly with a bore of .452 vs .430 just as a simple function of the greater surface area on the base of the bullet.

Walkalong
March 3, 2010, 07:59 PM
4227? Sr4759?

Jesse Heywood
March 3, 2010, 08:11 PM
I believe the CCI #35 is the hottest primer out there. Enlarging the pocket might be a problem! :banghead:

R.W.Dale
March 4, 2010, 11:31 AM
I believe the CCI #35 is the hottest primer out there. Enlarging the pocket might be a problem! :banghead:
I don't think we'll have to go to that extreme yet.

I fully expect my results to improve with more suitable lp primer. That said I'd still like to find the toughest ones, because as it stands with a fully supported case, in an action capable of 65k psi my limiting factor is going to be what a LP primer can take.

rcmodel
March 4, 2010, 11:36 AM
I still think it has more to do with not being able to roll-crimp like you do in a magnum revolver caliber.

Try it without neck expanding to get more case neck tension and I bet you get better results.

rc

R.W.Dale
March 4, 2010, 11:51 AM
Try it without neck expanding to get more case neck tension and I bet you get better results.

rc


I've already tried that (albeit on accident) without belling the case mouth you cannot get a bullet to even attempt to seat. But aside from slightly expanding the case mouth my Lee expander die is not expanding the "neck" to any measurable extent at all.

I just don't think the win primers are hot enough. There's a post somewhere where 1858 had the exact same problem with 45 LC, win primers and 296-h110. Either way if the cci350's don't fix my problem I'll definitely post about it. I may turn out too that a 200grn bullet is just too light for h-110/296 to do it's thing.

243winxb
March 4, 2010, 02:30 PM
200grn bullet is just too light You need more powder. Is there room in the case? I guess no?? http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1

R.W.Dale
March 4, 2010, 02:35 PM
You need more powder. Is there room in the case? I guess no?? http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1
I figure there's a good reason only one of my (speer no11) manuals show this powder with 200grn bullets. You'll note hodgdon only goes as light as 230

243winxb
March 4, 2010, 02:39 PM
Yes, you need more pressure. Only way to get more pressure is more bullet weight or more powder. I dont think a primer change is going to do it, but i have been wrong before. This is the correct link. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1

R.W.Dale
March 4, 2010, 03:37 PM
I think I'm going to write off this powder and bullet combo in favor of ww231 loaded to 1K fps for when I get a can.

I just ordered 3 boxes of 250grn Nosler JHP's, I'm thinking this weight will better serve this cartridge and platform. I may really go out on a limb and see if I can get suitable performance (read accuracy) from N-120 of which I have almost 4 lbs left over from my 30ppc largo days. I also still have 1lb of LIL GUN of which I have no Idea what to do with.



FYI the primer shortage may be easing up but right now Jacketed handgun bullets are nonexistent

kludge
March 4, 2010, 04:22 PM
Tag.

Hornady 230gr or 250gr XTP's? 240gr XTP/M?

Maj Dad
March 4, 2010, 04:25 PM
Olin has always stated in their loading data (mirrored by the other manuals) that a heavy crimp is necessary for proper burning of 296 (and can give squid loads without it), as rc implied. If you can't get that with yours, I think you'll have to at least consider switching powders. AA#9 has always worked well for me in my 44s, but I have always used a heavy crimp in 44s (&357s) so I can't speak to not using it. I have not seen any language from AA indicating that a heavy crimp is required... :scrutiny:

JimKirk
March 4, 2010, 06:08 PM
Kroch

That gun with a open style Red dot sight would work wonders in the swamps for hogs.

Nice gun!

Jimmy K

R.W.Dale
March 8, 2010, 01:33 AM
UPDATE: with a revelation


Now I don't know if starline made a run of large rifle primed 45win mag cases or if my particular batch of brass is just all on the extreme big end of the SAAMI pistol primer pocket depth spec. But anyhow the WLP primers I were using were getting seated a whopping .007" below flush (I shoulda checked this sooner)

After some careful measurement on test cartridges it turns out my primer pockets are running deep enough to seat a WLR primer .001" below flush, 20 cases measured before and after priming with no change in OAL confirm this. For me this is good news as I now have a hot enough primer with a tough enough cup to take this wildcat (actually 450BFG PTG) where I want to go.http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Bn88PPtlcXEJ:www.bfgcartridges.com/450BFG.html+.450bfg&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a


I'm hoping that the overly deep .007" primer may be a contributing factor to the somewhat underwhelming accuracy I've thus far experienced, around 3moa for 5 @ 100 with WLP primed ww231 and the aforementioned WW296 loads.

More testing soon

ArchAngelCD
March 9, 2010, 03:58 AM
krochus,
I've also found WLP primers aren't as "hot" as magnum specific primers from other companies even though they're marker for both standard and magnum use. When I want a LPM primer I use CCI LP Magnum primers. I feel they have the thickest cups and they are a true magnum primer.

If the brass you have will accept a LR primer that might be the way to go. Did you test the CCI LPM primers yet? (or did I miss that post?) If you did were the results better?

I doubt you will achieve acceptable results using a fast powder like W231. You might want to give H4227 a try since it's not nearly as hard to ignite as W296 although you won't get the same velocity. HS-6 will give you good velocities in the 45 Win Mag and it's an accurate powder too. (although I'm not sure of it's accuracy in the 45 Win Mag)

Remo-99
March 9, 2010, 08:20 AM
Now I don't know if starline made a run of large rifle primed 45win mag cases

It wouldn't supprise one bit if they are made for LRP's, Starline have been know to cater for what reloaders seek, on occassion.

To me it seems that, with that light bullet weight, for the calibre. Theres gonna be some irradic ignition concerns when using slow ball powders, regardless of which primer ignites it.
Heavier bullets or a faster/easier to light powder may be options to explore, but since this is your project I only make the suggestion. ;)

R.W.Dale
March 9, 2010, 10:03 AM
I haven't tried either of the new primers yet. But I'm about to hit the range within the hour.

Stay tuned!

R.W.Dale
March 9, 2010, 01:41 PM
well the results are in

shooting the previously mentioned load of up to 29grs of ww296 with 200grn xtp's now with a LR primer yeilded almost 200 fps more, virtually 100% propellant burn and ES numbers less than a quarter of those numbers with a WLP primer.

So yes primer does matter!

The problem is though that throughout all this testing my groups get no better than 3" at 100 for 5 shots, EVERY TIME. It's frustrating for sure, I guess I'll have to start over with a new scope and see if that helps.

Walkalong
March 9, 2010, 02:57 PM
At least you have the powder burn issue resolved. Now you can concentrate on accuracy.

R.W.Dale
March 9, 2010, 10:57 PM
At least you have the powder burn issue resolved. Now you can concentrate on accuracy.
I hope it's an optic or rifle issue for sure. Because at this point I don't have any more handloading rabbits to pull out of my hat.

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