Shooting a container of "non-Newtonian fluid"


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Snowdog
March 3, 2010, 09:33 PM
My Play-doh has gone bad and needs to be replaced. I used this same 50+ pounds of play-dough (store bought) for around 10 years kept in a 5 gallon bucket. It didn't dry, but it did suddenly get moldy.

I'm planning on making the next batch of play-doh myself and perhaps 20 pounds this time since I will only be testing handguns from now on.

While looking up various recipes, I found something called non-Newtonian fluids (specifically a rheopectic non-Newtonian fluid). I remember playing with similar stuff as a kid called crazy slime or something along those lines. It was kept in a ziplock bag and had the consistancy of a very thick ketchup when held, but if hit, it felt like a solid.
I wondered even back then how it would react if shot with something of high velocity. Would it act upon the bullet as a solid and shatter, or would it behave like something closer to play-doh?

Though I plan on sticking with play-doh since it behaves similar to 10% ballistic gelatin and provides picture perfect expansion of both SP and JHP bullets, I would like to see if how a JHP would react to this stuff.
I must know if it will expand as designed against a liquid or flatten as if hitting a solid.

Before trying, has anyone done this before? I understand Silly Putty is also a non-Newtonian fluid and will shatter if shot with a bullet. Has anyone seen this happen?

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MrCleanOK
March 3, 2010, 10:18 PM
You can make your own non-newtonian fluid with corn starch and water, I don't remember the ratio. A little google-fu can find it for you. I would expect it to shatter upon impact (a la cinder block), and of course then revert back to a liquid state.

alexpkeaton529
March 3, 2010, 10:20 PM
If I remember correctly someone has experimented with different variations of non-newtonian fluid for body armor. In an attempt to develop a layer that is malleable but will get extremely hard when pressure is exerted on it.

Sadly, I have never attempted to shoot it.

Texas Gun Person
March 3, 2010, 10:22 PM
If I remember correctly someone has experimented with different variations of non-newtonian fluid for body armor. In an attempt to develop a layer that is malleable but will get extremely hard when pressure is exerted on it.



Mythbusters did on their show. :D


Based on what they came up with... if you want a non-newtonian fluid to stop a bullet. You're going to end up with a gun shot wound, or dead.

They were using thin sheets of it, but if you had a thick enough amount... I'm sure it would stop one... probably... maybe.

MrCleanOK
March 3, 2010, 10:27 PM
V-Tac supposedly has a new non-newtonian fluid glove, but information on it has proved hard to find. Non-newtonian fluid body armor would probably be prohibitively heavy.

mljdeckard
March 3, 2010, 10:34 PM
You guys beat me to it, it's corn starch and water. In cub scouts we called it 'genius gel'.

MrCleanOK
March 3, 2010, 10:36 PM
Not all non-newtonian fluids are cornstarch and water, but that's just the easiest one to make with common household materials ;)

halfded
March 3, 2010, 11:22 PM
Just made a little batch, this stuff is AWESOME!! Gonna make another little batch next time I go out shooting and see what happens. Should be interesting!

Snowdog
March 4, 2010, 12:11 AM
Gonna make another little batch next time I go out shooting and see what happens.

Yes, please do!

Geneseo1911
March 4, 2010, 12:33 AM
PICTURES!! Please!!

Did MB do NN fluids specifically to stop bullets? I haven't seen that one. I must admit to being amazed when they made a huge batch in the "walking on water" episode and Adam walked across it. Very cool.

bob.a
March 4, 2010, 01:39 AM
There was talk a few years ago about using the cornstarch solution as hip protectors for the elderly. (So often a broken hip leads to the grave in a few months' time). I don't know if it ever went anywhere, but the idea seemed sound. Still, getting Grandma to wear bags of slime under her skirts might not fly.

Dravur
March 4, 2010, 11:47 AM
What is the corn starch ratio to water?

Navy_Guns
March 4, 2010, 12:28 PM
Be careful, you might make the non-Newtonian fluid angry, and then it'll come after you in your sleep! Check out the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU

bob.a
March 4, 2010, 12:57 PM
I can't tell you the ratio, but make a thickish solution, and you'll know it's right when you can stir it slowly with your spoon, but speed up and the solution seems to thicken and resist your efforts.

JuryRig
March 4, 2010, 06:13 PM
My daughter told me about silly putty having that property when she was 10. So, of course, I had to take it to the next level. I placed it on the concrete floor of our shop and hit it with a sledge hammer. It shattered and flew everywhere, including my wife's open mouth. Never found most of it, and no piece larger than the fingernail of my little finger. Had to buy some new silly putty.

If you shot it, I would assume it would disintegrate into tiny pieces. A nice big plastic bag of corn starch and water would be interesting to try.

Cosmik de Bris
March 4, 2010, 06:35 PM
I saw a program on TV where they filled a swimming pool with that corn starch stuff and people ran across it. The slow ones went down.

RyanM
March 4, 2010, 06:38 PM
I'm guessing it would shatter like a solid, but then the small pieces would melt back into goo, possibly while midair. It would mainly be fun to see in slow motion, with a high-speed camera.

You can also try hitting some of the stuff with a hammer, for a similar and easier to see effect. It hardens and gets all kinds of cracks in it, then melts again.

rcmodel
March 4, 2010, 06:46 PM
My Play-doh has gone bad and needs to be replaced.
Ahhhh! Thats SO sad! I Hate when that happens! :(

Seriously though:
You might check out DuxSeal putty as used to seal sheet metal ductwork by the HVAC guys.

Works great, and is available in big containers.
And I have never heard of it getting moldy.

Many years ago, before ballistics gel became common, all the big boys used it for bullet testing.

rc

Geneseo1911
March 4, 2010, 08:25 PM
I'm guessing it would shatter like a solid, but then the small pieces would melt back into goo, possibly while midair. It would mainly be fun to see in slow motion, with a high-speed camera.

This make anyone else think of T-1000?
http://images2e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp537%3C%3B%3Enu%3D333%3A%3E%3A53%3E648%3EWSNRCG%3D3448%3C%3B96%3C8336nu0mrj

Equestrian
March 5, 2010, 06:08 PM
i've used plumbers putty, it's like play-doh but never dries out or molds and can be had cheaply and in quantity. stopped a 22 in about 1 1/2"

halfded
March 6, 2010, 09:41 AM
Gonna make up a batch today to shoot at.

Just gonna use the .22, but I was thinking I'd fill a plastic water bottle with, well, water; then fill another bottle with the cornstarch mixture.

My train of thought (usually a runaway) is this:

When I shoot bottles of water with a round nose bullet, it leaves a clean entry and exit with maybe a small amount of splitting of the plastic.

Since the NN fluid should turn to solid as the bullet impacts and makes it shockwave through the material, the bottle should experience a lot more "traumatic injury" as a result.

I'll be heading outside in a couple hours, so if you guys have a better idea that won't take all day to set up, I'm all ears.

Unfortunately, I don't have a video camera, but pictures will definitely be taken of the results.

edSky
March 6, 2010, 10:55 AM
cool, halfded, I like your theory. Since air can compress quite well you might want to fill the bottle to the top. Have fun!

In the meantime, we can watch the following video of some folks playing will a pool filled with oobleck (as the girls in 5th grade call it down here).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2XQ97XHjVw

halfded
March 6, 2010, 11:00 AM
Yup. My plan is to fill the bottles all the way to the rim and screw the caps on tight. If I can find it, I'm gonna tape the lids on; they're those little tiny eco-friendly caps that pop off if you look at them funny.

I'm torn between whether I should use a really fast solid, CCI's SGB; or a copper hollowpoint, another of CCI's offerings with the cavity enlarged.

I'd start a poll, but I'm too impatient for that. I wonder if I have enough cornstarch to do one of each?

More importantly, I wonder if the wife will notice I wasted all the cornstarch?

Mt Shooter
March 6, 2010, 11:09 AM
More importantly, I wonder if the wife will notice I wasted all the cornstarch?


Tell her its in the name of science. :D

halfded
March 6, 2010, 11:12 AM
Well, I just used the rest of the cornstarch.. and botched the mix. :banghead:

Too much water. So now I"m on my way to the store to get another can. Be back soon!!

Tommygunn
March 6, 2010, 12:13 PM
Be careful, you might make the non-Newtonian fluid angry, and then it'll come after you in your sleep! Check out the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU

Ha ha! That was clever.
When I first read the title to this thread, my first reaction was; "what the ____ is non newtonian fluid??!!" Reading it, I recall learning about the cornstarch & water trick decades ago when I was in Jr. High School. We didn't call it "non newtonian fluid" but we did have some fun with it....:D:)

Snowdog
March 6, 2010, 12:25 PM
Try to capture the bullet if possible. If the mixture turns into a solid, there should be some evidence of this on the soft lead .22 slug.

I'm going to purchase some plumbers putty as suggested here. I'll pick up some cornstarch while I'm out.

halfded
March 6, 2010, 12:34 PM
Any quick final votes on solid vs. hollow point?

I only have one bottle of NN fluid at the ready.

Gonna put the bottle in front of my bullet box to see if I can catch the bullet without the box deforming it a whole lot. WE never seem to have any old phone books laying around.

halfded
March 6, 2010, 01:39 PM
and while interesting, are also kind of disappointing.

On to the pics:

Test subjects "A" and "B". Your average deer park water bottles. One filled with NN fluid, the other filled with tap water; both to the same level.
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt332/halfdedsphoto/009.jpg

Subjects were set at a distance of 25 yards. In an attempt to catch the bullet I placed a rather thick stump behind the water bottle. The bullet passed directly through and was lost.

The NN fluid bottle was set in front of my DO-ALL bullet trap box, which stopped the bullet and also disintegrated it enough where it wasn't valid in the "experiment" anymore.

The round used was CCI's Small Game Bullet, or SGB. These little buggers zip along fast enough to put a nice dimple in my swinger targets from 50 yards.
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt332/halfdedsphoto/011.jpg

The rifle used was my new Savage Mark II BTV:
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt332/halfdedsphoto/019-1.jpg

The results were less than spectacular, but interesting nonetheless.

While the "exit wounds" were the same on both test subjects, as seen here:
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt332/halfdedsphoto/015-1.jpg

The entry wounds were quite different. The water filled bottle had split in the front similarly to the rear in a lateral direction from the bullet hole. The NN filled bottle had a clean hole with no splitting of the bottle occurring, as seen here:
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt332/halfdedsphoto/012.jpg

My theory is when the bullet first struck the bottle, the fluid changed to a rubbery solid which supported the plastic of the bottle but wasn't solid enough to stop the bullet or transmit enough energy to break apart. After the bullet strike, the NN fluid just leaked from the bottle like paint.

Silly putty might be a little more visually entertaining since it is already fairly solid and, from hearing about the sledgehammer incident, gets pretty hard pretty fast.

The only problem would be getting enough silly putty to fill a water bottle. Could get expensive..

Snowdog
March 6, 2010, 02:21 PM
Great report, Halfded! Too bad the bullet collected didn't yield much info on the fluid properties.
I'll try something similar but perhaps a slightly larger diameter bottle shot lengthwise with a JSP 9mm (S&B) or JSP .380 (Santa Barbara), something that likely won't expand in a liquid but might display some "smashing" effect if it encounters something that reacts as a solid.

I'll likely get the materials today. I'm looking at my wife's camera (Elph SD780 IS) and though tiny, I think it will take sufficient pictures. I'll take some pictures with my phone (HTC Eris) if I have to.

Again, good job on the test and photos!

halfded
March 6, 2010, 03:11 PM
I was thinking shooting the bottle lengthwise, aiming at the cap, might get a better result. I don't think it turns "solid, solid" more of a "rubbery solid" which might be enough to smash a soft point. Another point to ponder might be a LACK of expansion on a hollow point; maybe due either to the hollow becoming clogged with oobleck or the oobleck splitting allowing the bullet to "slip through".

The same effect is kind of demonstrated in the world of body piercing. An earlobe, nostril, etc. the flesh is cut along the path of the needle. A tongue, on the other hand, is a muscle; when the needle passes through, the fibers separate. The result is a wound that heals faster and is actually less painful. Hopefully that makes sense pertaining to the discussion at hand. Basically, I'm thinking the oobleck might split, never allowing the material to enter the hollow point and expand it.

I'll be curious to see the results on a larger scale though. I'm starting to think I should have used a hollow point. Be sure to set up some phone books or something to try and catch the bullet!

BTW, good luck filling a larger container. I used about 10oz of a 16 oz container to fill those 16oz (I think) bottles. It had to be mixed in 3 batches to ensure consistency.

Shadow 7D
March 6, 2010, 09:31 PM
um, cheap silly putty can be made from borax soap (20 mules, or just boric acid from a pharmacy (eyewash, maybe ear)) and plain old elmers white glue, but I don't know if it is non newtonian or not, just that after you mix it and wash it, it behaves like silly putty.

Navy_Guns
March 7, 2010, 05:27 PM
The borax + glue trick is the classic "slime" recipe. First, you mix white glue and water 50/50. Then take some borax and make a saturated solution (dissolve it in water until no more will dissolve). Then start adding your saturated borax solution to the thinned glue and mix it. Add a bit at a time until you get the desired consistency.

Equestrian
March 12, 2010, 12:55 AM
Silly putty can be had in bulk lots try these links
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000581.php
http://www.vern.com/putty/ordering/dow.html minimum order 100 lbs
it can be had en masse but you have to dig
might be cheap to order it in eggs or you could just make some of the knock off at home

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