Fantasy round: .357 Sig based on a 10mm


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HOV
March 4, 2010, 01:32 PM
Shouldn't the .357 Sig have been based on the 10mm case instead of the .40S&W? Seems like the 10mm-based round could be a better translation of .357 mag to an autoloader.

Heck, considering how fast a 10mm round goes, seems like loading a lighter .355" projectile in there w/bottleneck would exceed .357 Mag capabilities.

Thoughts?

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rcmodel
March 4, 2010, 01:37 PM
Same reason the 10mm was downsized to the .40 S&W.
It was never intended to be a sporting or civilian nitch round, although that is what it has become.

The police market the .357 SIG was aimed at has to fit in 9mm/40 S&W size framed guns due to the co-ed police officers so prevelent today.

A lot of cops didn't have big enough hands to reach the trigger on the larger .45/10mm guns, or handle full-power 10mm loads either!

rc

figment
March 4, 2010, 01:53 PM
sabots?:evil:

ny32182
March 4, 2010, 01:53 PM
What you are asking for exists... 9x25 Dillon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x25_Dillon

Doubletap makes loaded ammo and claims 125gr @ 1700fps. I don't know exactly where .357mag tops out, but I'm guessing it is below that.

berettashotgun
March 4, 2010, 01:55 PM
I was amazed at the lack of recoil from the 357sig in the Cougar I bought.
The wife couldn't believe it - way less than her duty G17 - and other than the ammo cost really like the platform and round.
Published ballistics have nothing to do with the skill set required to effectively hit the target when it counts.
That stated, heck yeah, I want one made by the factory for my 1006. And a carbine from Beretta.

ny32182
March 4, 2010, 02:00 PM
Shooting 9mm and 357sig back to back in similar platforms (G19 and G32 for instance) the difference in recoil is... substantial. I've never fired a 9x25 but would expect the recoil to be more than that of 10mm.

A G20 is on my wish list, and I may eventually get a 9x25 barrel for it. I have a 1006, and have not looked hard, but have never seen a 9x25 barrel out there for that gun.

HOV
March 4, 2010, 03:06 PM
What you are asking for exists... 9x25 Dillon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x25_Dillon

Doubletap makes loaded ammo and claims 125gr @ 1700fps. I don't know exactly where .357mag tops out, but I'm guessing it is below that.

Sweet! I had heard mention of 9x25 Dillon before but never checked it out. Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about.

I have a G20, it's a great pistol. Got a .40S&W conversion coming to practice on the cheap, and for my mental health. I've never before been so paranoid about losing brass!

ArmedBear
March 4, 2010, 04:27 PM
125 grains isn't much in a .357. The whole point of .357 as a sporting round is to shoot real bullets, and it's the smallest and weakest of the serious revolver rounds.

Regular book loads of 125 grain bullets in .357 are listed at close to 2000 fps, but I wouldn't do that anyway. 180 grains @ 1400 fps is more to the point.:)

I mean, I understand that people like to play with all sorts of loads. But .357 isn't a particularly powerful round, so shooting your perfectly good autoloader apart to try to meet .357's hottest spec's seems like a waste of a perfectly good gun, to me.

ny32182
March 4, 2010, 04:34 PM
A .357mag revolver can run a 125gr to 2000fps?

rcmodel
March 4, 2010, 04:36 PM
Out of a lever-action rifle maybe.

Certainly not out of a handgun.

rc

ArmedBear
March 4, 2010, 04:50 PM
22 grains of H110 or 296. 125 @1966

I haven't tried it, since I can't think of a reason to load 125 grain .357 rounds, but the data set hasn't seemed way off on other stuff. Could be Contender spec.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

However, Buffalo Bore is claiming a measured 1707 fps out of a 6" GP 100 for their 125 grain load. So for those who figure that 1700 fps with a 125 grain bullet is better than .357, think again.

A lot of defensive .357 is downloaded by a lot. The real thing is a different animal, but it's readily accessible to anyone with a press.

Still, who really cares? Like I said, even hot .357 is the weakest serious Magnum. It's not the highest bar to set, if you're beating the crap out of an autoloader to try to shoot the hottest stuff you can come up with.

MachIVshooter
March 4, 2010, 05:03 PM
22 grains of H110 or 296. 125 @1966

I haven't tried it, since I can't think of a reason to load 125 grain .357 rounds, but the data set hasn't seemed way off on other stuff. Could be Contender spec

I expect so. Even if the wheelgun could take the beating, the cylinder gap and shorter barrel isn't gonna get those numbers. Just below 1,700 is the most I could muster from my 6" 686.

The problem with the 9x25 Dillon is the same that plagued the 9mm winchester mag. That is, there really aren't any 9mm bullets up to the task of 1,700+ FPS velocities. It's like using .32 ACP bullets in a .327 federal mag. They just blow up when they hit things. Perhaps 147 gr. XTP's or Golden Sabres, but they're still not designed for the 1,500-1,600 FPS the 9x25 will push them at.

rcmodel
March 4, 2010, 05:06 PM
22 grains of H110 or 296. 125 @1966That is out of a 10" pressure test barrel.
Not a revolver.

According to Lyman #49, the same load gives 1,506 FPS out of a 4" pressure test barrel.
Again, not a revolver.

Revolvers have a barrel / cylinder gap.
Pressure test barrels don't.

rc

ArmedBear
March 4, 2010, 05:09 PM
Revolvers have a barrel / cylinder gap.
Pressure test barrels don't.


True enough, though there are also gapped test barrels.

Nevertheless, my point was that all this "fantasy round" stuff was about rounds with middling ballistics. Auto pistols, other than exotics, are made for compact defense, not Elmer Keith experiments.

Zeke Markham
March 5, 2010, 07:13 AM
I enjoy my 9X25 a lot. It started off as a Kimber 10mm, I picked up a Nowlin barrel for it and threaded it for a compensator. Ballistics are impressive, not by super hot 357, or 44 Mag standards, but it's not either of those. However the muzzle flash and noise are, especially out of a comp gun. Recoil? Almost none. Sorry I don't know how to make the picture smaller.
http://zekemarkham.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Photo132.jpg

gordy
March 5, 2010, 11:49 AM
The 9x25 was made to meet major factor. More power on a smaller scale. Big long mags sticking out of the bottem of a 9mm sized gun. It does what the 38 super does but is shorter, The 357sig is a pd round ment to give 357magnum preformance in a auto and it does just that.
and as for the 357 being weakest of the magnums. It may have to due with it being the smallest of the bunch, As for one shot stops the 357 mag. comes in first place, with the 45acp second.
And as for the op's ?- the 40 is a down sized 10mm, the 357 sig is a necked down 40. So the 357sig is a child of the 10mm.:)

JTQ
March 5, 2010, 12:37 PM
gordy wrote,
The 9x25 was made to meet major factor. More power on a smaller scale.Big long mags sticking out of the bottem of a 9mm sized gun. It does what the 38 super does but is shorter

The .357 Sig is the round that fits in a 9 MM sized gun. The 9x25 Dillon is a longer round, based on the 10 MM, and requires a gun sized for a 10 MM/.45 ACP/.38 Super. 9x25 will not fit in pistols designed for a 9 MM (9x19) sized pistol.

Mastiff
March 5, 2010, 12:57 PM
The 9x23 Winchester is already the ballistic duplicate of the .357 Magnum, FWIW.
I don't know if the following is true, but it is worth thinking about. I'd like to know if it is true.

Performance and usage

The 9x25mm Dillon was a success in that there was a noticeable reduction in felt recoil, especially compared with comparable 38 Super IPSC Open guns. When fired the gun recoiled almost straight back into the shooter's hand rather than up and back. This resulted in competitors being able to fire their second shot more accurately in less time which increased their score. Another advantage was that when loaded to the old USPSA 175 Major power factor, the 9x25mm Dillon case didn't show any signs of excess pressure, as the internal volume of the donor 10mm case could easily handle pressures that were generated, whereas some 38 Super rounds loaded for the 175 Major power factor showed excessive pressure signs.

There were, however, some drawbacks to the cartridge. First was that since it was based on the 10 mm case, magazine capacity in a double-column 1911 magazine (such as a Strayer-Voigt or STI) was reduced by 2-4 rounds compared to a similar gun chambered in 38 Super or 9x21mm. Second was that some users of the 9x25mm Dillon were experiencing parts breakage on their guns at a much higher rate than a similar 38 Super - cracks in the compensator and slide and broken scopes.

But the biggest drawback to the cartridge, and the one that largely contributed to it falling out of favor was the enormous shock wave that was produced when the cartridge was fired. When firing the gun, the shooter could actually feel the impulse hit their face and travel up their arm. After a while, some people began to experience tendinitis in their wrists and other soreness in their wrists and arms. For a lot of people the trade-off from reduced felt recoil and a quicker second shot wasn't worth the potential damage that could be caused to their hearing and wrists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x25_Dillon

Occam's Razor
March 5, 2010, 01:10 PM
The 9x25 was made to meet major factor. More power on a smaller scale. Big long mags sticking out of the bottem of a 9mm sized gun. It does what the 38 super does but is shorter, ...........I believe you are thinking of the 9x21.

Will-Seattle
March 5, 2010, 02:28 PM
FWIW- A friend of mine did obtain a 9x25 barrel for his Glock 20. He ran into problems with cartridge length restrictions from the glock mag. I don't recall the specifics, but he was overall not especially happy with the velocities and ended up getting rid of the barrel.

Will

ny32182
March 5, 2010, 02:50 PM
I was wondering that myself. I believe the RN bullets I typically load for 9mm would probably not work; there are likely going to be a more narrow profile of bullet selection that will work; mostly the TC variety I bet. This issue definitely has to be considered with 357sig.

DWFan
March 5, 2010, 04:27 PM
Courtesy of www.handloads.com for .357 Magnum:
125gr jhp......15.3gr Blue Dot......1850 fps from 8" Colt Python

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
March 5, 2010, 05:04 PM
I know a guy who's trying to get the wildcat he developed adopted by law enforcement and the world at large, but it's just "similar" not the same - it's a 10mm case necked to .357 and using actual .357 mag bullets in an autoloader, not .355 9mm pistol bullets. His idea is to have the expansion that comes with the semi-jacketed .357 bullets, and all the power (or more) of the .357 mag round, but in a semi-auto. Problems of course, are feeding semi-jacketed bullets up the feed ramp, and finding barrel makers for a .357 auto pistol barrel, not .355.

And oh yeah, the 9x23 Win/Dillon is better than either, since it's gives you all the oomph and yet more mag capacity (and no feeding nosedives due to stacking necked rounds in a mag).

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