Yet another howdah pistol thread


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RyanM
March 4, 2010, 06:28 PM
Just got my Pedersoli Howdah pistol! I'll take some pics soon. For now, I'm getting familiar with it. And also looking for a nipple pick. I stupidly decided to try dry firing by putting several layers of cloth over the nipples. Cut right through and now they're packed with cloth! I tend to make the dumbest mistakes with muzzleloaders. If I had a nickel for every stuck ball I've had...

Anyway, one of the first things I've noticed is that the left barrel is actually a 17 gauge! My caliper says it's 0.6495", which is just about exactly 17 bore. The right barrel, however, is .633", or 18.4 bore. You can actually see the difference with the naked eye. Using some .630" copper tubing as a feeler, it seems that there's no choke on the tighter bore. I guess that will result in the same effect, though? Not really sure if it's intentional. Maybe I should e-mail Pedersoli and ask.

Edit: I e-mailed 'em. We'll see what they say. I also learned that putting a muzzleloader nipple in your mouth and blowing is a bad idea, and won't get stuff out of them. Thppppbt! Whatever oil they used on these tastes a little bit like bergamot oil, the stuff that's in Earl Grey tea.

And here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/syldssuf/SANY0653.jpg) is a link to what the barrels look like. Hopefully I won't get yelled at for taking a photo looking down the barrels. :rolleyes:

The difference in thickness isn't too hard to see. If it were the right barrel that was looser, I would assume it's intentional, since that's the more normal arrangement.

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BHP FAN
March 4, 2010, 08:59 PM
it almost looks like one barrel is rifled?

RyanM
March 4, 2010, 09:20 PM
No, they're definitely both smoothbore. The right barrel has some scratches, it looks like. I checked with a flashlight, and the scratches go too far down to be from me and my caliper (not my fault, whew!). Might be from the proof firing or factory cleaning afterward, since I really doubt a copper tube would scratch a steel barrel.

Hm, I think I figured out how this happened, if it's not supposed to be like that. Pedersoli's longer shotguns are chrome-lined, so they get bored out to a larger diameter, then the chrome plating makes it smaller. They don't say the Howdah is chrome-lined, so it probably isn't. So the right barrel got the normal Howdah-sized bore, while the left one got a chrome 20 bore, but no chrome.

Or if it is supposed to be like that, then that's probably how they do the two different sizes. But if it is, why's the left bigger instead of the right? Do birds in Italy fly towards the sound of gunfire, or do Italians pull the back trigger first? I've never owned an Italian cartridge double, I just know the American ones have the right barrel linked to the forward trigger, and a more open choke on that one.

It is a little worrying, since the barrel is thinner. I know it passed the proof house, but a patched .61 caliber ball won't fit in a nearly .65 caliber bore very tightly! And that's probably the projectile used to proof it, since it's marked 20 gauge.

BHP FAN
March 4, 2010, 09:23 PM
use that one as the shot barrel?

AdmiralB
March 4, 2010, 09:55 PM
Interesting. Mine are both .630.

On the topic of nipples...I noticed that the factory nipples are way too tall - the hammers smack them pretty hard.

They're the same thread as Uberti Walker/Dragoon nipples, and I had several sets lying around after swapping Tresos into my revolvers.

I put a pair of the Ubertis in the Howdah, and they're perfect - they're *just* below the hammers surface at rest, and the inertial carryover reliably ignites caps on them.

RyanM
March 4, 2010, 10:00 PM
On the topic of nipples...I noticed that the factory nipples are way too tall - the hammers smack them pretty hard.

They're the same thread as Uberti Walker/Dragoon nipples, and I had several sets lying around after swapping Tresos into my revolvers.

Sounds like a good idea for after I get this barrel issue sorted out. Since it sounds like you've got more than 2, would you take a few bucks for 2, or even 4 nipples? The hammers on this gun already have dents from the nipples on them, just from shipping.

azyogi
March 4, 2010, 10:15 PM
Instead of cloth, use a rubber faucet washer. I like the cone shaped ones the center hole is the size of a #11 work just fine for dry fire. Found in most plumbing depts.

higene
March 4, 2010, 10:24 PM
Interesting. Mine are both .620. higene

On the topic of nipples I replaced mine right away.

Incidentally, I have the model with the attached cleaning rod which I believe was a later version.

:scrutiny:

AdmiralB
March 4, 2010, 10:27 PM
You can have a pair. Just PM me your address!

The only caveat is, they really only like Remington #10s. Bigger caps need pinched to stay on.

RyanM
March 4, 2010, 10:40 PM
The only caveat is, they really only like Remington #10s. Bigger caps need pinched to stay on.

Shouldn't be a problem. PA is probably one of the best states to get BP supplies, since we've got a couple dedicated muzzleloader seasons, including one just for flintlocks.

Thanks a ton, I appreciate it!

And it's sounding more and more like the left barrel got the chrome-lined reamer by mistake. Well, I also e-mailed the Pedersoli warranty rep in this state, so it should get taken care of. Hopefully there aren't too many like that floating around.

Edit: Here's some gun and knife porn.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/syldssuf/luparas.jpg

It does make a good companion piece to a Serbu Super Shorty. Incredibly different, yet exactly the same. A reminder that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Also, sounds like I definitely have a lemon. Come to think of it, a .640 bore (assuming my calipers measured both on the big side) is probably large enough that 20 gauge components would just slide right out! I don't have any to check right now, but a 12 gauge fiber wad I measured is .740, while plastic ones are .735. So only 0.011" and 0.006" larger than the gauge. That left barrel is a lot more oversize than that! If this were common or standard, there'd have to be a lot of people commenting that wads slide right in, on one side.

I think exchanging it to Cabelas would be the easiest and fastest way, I just hope they refund the return shipping on defective stuff, or send a shipping label.

BHP FAN
March 5, 2010, 02:54 AM
how many shots does that shorty hold?

AdmiralB
March 5, 2010, 07:40 AM
I just hope they refund the return shipping on defective stuff

In my experience (which is singular), they do. I returned a Pietta Remington New Model Pocket that was a complete POS, they refunded my shipping based upon a 'book rate' that was several dollars more than I actually spent. Good customer service, no question.

madcratebuilder
March 5, 2010, 08:41 AM
Anyway, one of the first things I've noticed is that the left barrel is actually a 17 gauge! My caliper says it's 0.6495", which is just about exactly 17 bore. The right barrel, however, is .633", or 18.4 bore. You can actually see the difference with the naked eye. Using some .630" copper tubing as a feeler, it seems that there's no choke on the tighter bore. I guess that will result in the same effect, though? Not really sure if it's intentional. Maybe I should e-mail Pedersoli and ask.

At one time DP offered the Howdah in .58calX20ga. If your Howdah has sold as a 20X20 you need to send it back, both barrels should be the same. Mine is .6245 on both barrels.

RyanM
March 5, 2010, 08:59 AM
how many shots does that shorty hold?

2 in the tube, 1 in the chamber, with most shells. I've got some ancient Remington 3" magnum slugs are about 1/16" too long each, but Brenneke 3"s are fine.

---

In my experience (which is singular), they do.

Yay. If I don't get instruction by Monday-ish from Pedersoli or Charles Erb to send the gun to them to look at, I'll return it to Cabelas. They'll probably tell Pedersoli about the problem when they do a chargeback, and it can be shipped back to the factory from there if necessary.

---

At one time DP offered the Howdah in .58calX20ga. If your Howdah has sold as a 20X20 you need to send it back, both barrels should be the same. Mine is .6245 on both barrels.

Are you sure they did a .58 x 20? I know they still make a .50 x 20, but never heard of a .58 x 20 combo. It's also the left barrel that's smaller and rifled on the combo guns, since that corresponds to the rear trigger.

Anyway, both barrels are smooth, and it's marked "CAL . 20 USE BLACK POWDER ONLY" or something, no dual caliber marks.

arcticap
March 5, 2010, 11:37 AM
Are you sure they did a .58 x 20?

Yep!

azyogi
March 12, 2010, 12:38 AM
RyanM any update on your Howdah

arcticap
March 12, 2010, 09:49 AM
I double checked and the Howdah picture that I posted in post #15 was of a 20 X .50 and not a 20 X .58.
Now I'm pretty sure that the .58 barrels were only available in a twin configuration.
Mea culpa. :o

RyanM
March 12, 2010, 03:11 PM
RyanM any update on your Howdah

Mr. Erb said to send it back and let Cabelas worry about it, so that's what I did. I had forgotten that Cabelas puts a pre-paid UPS shipping label with every order, so I just used that. Still waiting to hear from them, hopefully a replacement will ship out soon. Customer service said they still had some in stock and would reserve one for my replacement.

wittzo
March 12, 2010, 03:25 PM
RyanM: If that Super Shorty is 12 gauge, try using the Aguila MiniShells. They're 1.5" long. They come in #7 birdshot, #1/#4 buckshot duplex, and 3/4 oz slugs. They're loaded with 3/4 oz to reduce the recoil, too. I was able to fit 14 shots into my Mossberg 590 (8 shot tube) and they cycled fine. Lot's of guys with short barreled shotgun pistols are using them.

azyogi
March 12, 2010, 09:07 PM
Another howdah, at 83 Dad has decided he needs some protection around the house he choose the 20 gauge.

madcratebuilder
March 13, 2010, 07:10 AM
I double checked and the Howdah picture that I posted in post #15 was of a 20 X .50 and not a 20 X .58.
Now I'm pretty sure that the .58 barrels were only available in a twin configuration.
Mea culpa.

I agree, I confused the 20gaX.50 with the .58.
I'm shooting a patched .61 rb in the 20ga, I know the .50 is rifled, is the .58?

RyanM
March 13, 2010, 11:24 AM
I agree, I confused the 20gaX.50 with the .58.
I'm shooting a patched .61 rb in the 20ga, I know the .50 is rifled, is the .58?

The .58s are rifled.

Really, the chrome reamer theory is my best guess. About .65 caliber is about right to get it back down to .620-.630 after chrome plating is applied. And I tested my calipers on some other things. A 12 ga. cylinder bore was .729, my Serbu muzzle is a little overbore at .735 (so apparently all Mossberg barrels are backbored to a small degree). So I'm reasonably sure that that particular Howdah was .633 and .649.

----

RyanM: If that Super Shorty is 12 gauge, try using the Aguila MiniShells. They're 1.5" long. They come in #7 birdshot, #1/#4 buckshot duplex, and 3/4 oz slugs. They're loaded with 3/4 oz to reduce the recoil, too. I was able to fit 14 shots into my Mossberg 590 (8 shot tube) and they cycled fine. Lot's of guys with short barreled shotgun pistols are using them.

Only 3 will fit in the tube, which isn't too great of an improvement, given the loss of payload and velocity. Recoil isn't too much of a problem with normal shells, especially reduced recoil.

I should really do a detailed patterning comparison between a 24" barrel and 7" barrel, this year. The Serbu patterns pretty decently with most buckshot that has a plastic shot cup.

----

Another howdah, at 83 Dad has decided he needs some protection around the house he choose the 20 gauge.

I'd recommend a stiff charge of 777, fiber wads, non-crush base plastic shotcup wads over that, and 8 or 10 pellets of #1 or .31 cal RB (whichever fits best in the shotcup).

azyogi
March 13, 2010, 05:22 PM
How does 777 keep in a gun, I know BP will be good for as longer as each load will stay in this gun. Longest time will be while I'm up north for the summer.

RyanM
March 14, 2010, 12:07 AM
How does 777 keep in a gun, I know BP will be good for as longer as each load will stay in this gun. Longest time will be while I'm up north for the summer.

Hm, not completely sure, but I would imagine that it lasts as long as it does in the can, i.e., a very long time. If the can doesn't have an expiration date, I wouldn't worry about it ever going bad. The only difference is that 777 in the gun will be slightly compressed. Since I don't think the pellets will expire in our lifetimes, either, that shouldn't make much of a difference.

You could (and probably should) seal the base of the nipples with a small piece of rolling paper (a little bit of the glue part). That and the plastic wad should make it pretty well airtight. I've tried the rolling paper thing on a revolver, and it seemed to be enough to keep the powder dry even in near-sauna like humidity.

Not sure what to do about the caps, though. Definitely not safe to leave hammers down on capped nipples, and half-cock isn't good for the springs. Maybe some kind of pad in between the hammers and caps, but I would want to test that very thoroughly with caps on empty chambers, to be sure. If it's safe, you could then further seal the caps with nail polish.

RyanM
March 17, 2010, 05:34 PM
I was hoping it took so long to ship me a replacement because they were hand-picking a good one, but the factory seal on the box was unbroken. :(

I ended up getting a good one anyway.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/syldssuf/howdah1.jpg

The barrels are both .630 this time, yay. Also definitely a more attractive gun than the first, especially the wood!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/syldssuf/howdah2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/syldssuf/howdah3.jpg

My photography skills are pretty bad, but you can see that it has a very strong grain, and there's the slightest bit of a tiger stripe, barely visible on the forearm. It's easier to see in person.

arcticap
March 17, 2010, 10:31 PM
The replacement looks and sounds like it's excellent.
With the last Howdah I'm glad that you were more attentive to the fine details than the Pedersoli quality control inspectors were.
Mistakes are bound to happen and it's good that you caught it. They must have just let it pass through inspection for whatever reason.
Hey, maybe Cabela's should be paying you to inspect more of their guns. :p
You did what you had to do and complained, and at least Cabela's is pretty good about it.

andrewstorm
March 18, 2010, 11:08 AM
I was told that 777 should be thrown out in the yard as fertilizer,after one year,by the manufacturer,because the pellets loose power,and absorb moisture,one time i shot at a big buck after only 7 days loaded with 777 mag pellets,ang watched as the bullet landed in the mud 75 yrds in front of me the deer was about 125 yrds,I had previously shot a running deer at 150 yrds with that same load,same pellets,now i buy a new box every year for hunting,and use the rest for plinking. BUY AMERICAN YOUR FUTURE DEPENDS UPON IT!

RyanM
March 18, 2010, 04:33 PM
Hm, interesting. I don't have any 777 yet, but it sounds like there might be an expiration date on it, then. I just checked my Goex BP and smokeless powder cans. None of them have dates. Still, as long as you seal the stuff really well and don't use any grease, it should, theoretically, last as long as it does in the can.

So for long term storage, sounds like real BP is the best bet. Just keep in mind the muzzle blast will probably set the entire room on fire.

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