[WonderNine]

To me the .45 seems loaded pretty anemically for the cartridge size. I know with liability and older 1911's out there though this is an issue. But the strongest point of the .45 other than the large hole seems to be the energy produced while still remaining subsonic. Soooooo, that said, I was wondering if there are any good +P or +P+ 230gr. .45 loads out there at about 1050? This would come to about 563ft/lbs of energy. Penetration worries me alot with this round in its standard loading and as we all know two holes leak better than one.

I believe the Winchester +P Law Enforcement load is about 950 fps according to their 2002 LEO catalog. I know it wouldn't be the best on even modern 1911's, but I wish they would update the cartridge a little or something.

[Preacherman]

I'm not aware of any factory load that would duplicate what you're looking for - at least, not in .45 ACP. .45 Super will do it, plus a bit more. .460 Rowland will considerably exceed it - it's no problem to get a 230gr. JHP up to 1,300 fps in the Rowland (a 185gr. JHP clocks over 1,500 fps from a 5" barrel!)

[BluesBear]

as we all know two holes leak better than one :rolleyes:
ALL of us don't know that.
Some of US even doubt that.

[Carbonator]

Running quickly towards your opponent should gain another 15 fps or so.

:scrutiny:

[Justin]

Sounds like you're asking for the .450 SMC (that's Short Magnum Cartridge.) The round has the same outer dimensions as a .45 ACP, but has been internally strengthened to allow the round to be loaded hotter. According to Triton's info on the round, you shouldn't shoot it through a conventional .45 until a proper conversion has been done. (I would assume this means a heckuva stout recoil spring.)

Velocity with a 230 grain bullet is 1150 fps. (According to their website, anyway.)

More info here:
http://www.tritonammo.com/products/450SMC.shtml

[BluesBear]

Justin,
Is Triton still in business?
:confused:
I haven't seen any for sale in quite a while and their website hasn't been updated in over a year.

[WonderNine]

It seems in another thread I read that the .45ACP brass is stronger than the .40S&W blah blah blah, don't know from personal experience as I don't reload, but the .40 operates at a higher pressure, why can't the .45 brass take a little higher pressure in an updated gun especially with a supported chamber?

[BluesBear]

You can take -06 brass, trim it to .45acp length, expand it, ream the neck, light load it and fireform.

Then you can load it a LOT hotter than standard ACP brass. And yeah you'll need a heavier recoil spring alright. And you'll have to watch your barrel link and slide stop cause they're gonna take a pounding.

My advice also would be to load one, drop the mag and then test fire. Load another, drop the mag and repeat. The less throating on the feed ramp the better.

Don't ask me why I know to reccomend this. :what:

[45King]

Carbonator wrote:Running quickly towards your opponent should gain another 15 fps or so.

:D Let us not forget that you can probably also add another 50fps by "whipping" the muzzle down towards the target.... :p

[zahc]

Running quickly towards your opponent should gain another 15 fps or so

...:D :Dlol


Everyone in the computer lab is looking at me now.

[HSMITH]

Why push the limits with a gun when there are other guns (or modification kits) that do what you want and are well within their design limits?

If you want a magnum buy a magnum.

The only production 1911's out there with a supported barrel are the guns from Para-Ordnance. Fooling with high pressure 45's without a supported barrel will KB and it will do it in a hurry. BB makes a very good recommendation about dropping the mag before shooting the high pressure loads, otherwise that is just more ejecta to harm you.

What a lot of people forget is that low pressures are a good thing.

[HankB]

Velocity with a 230 grain bullet is 1150 fps. The gun they picture appears to have a barrel and slide substantially longer than that on a standard 1911. So that's more velocity from the barrel, and more inertial mass from the slide. I'd really be reluctant to shoot these out of, say, my Les Baer Premier II no matter WHAT kind of recoil spring I put in.

For crying out loud, they needed to switch to a RIFLE primer on these things - what kind of pressures are they producing, and do you REALLY want to work into the gun's safety margin to this degree?

Even if your gun doesn't blow up, shooting these will beat the $%!@ out of it.

950 is pretty much the limit with a 230 - today's "+P" loads will do it, and many decades ago, Winchester had a "Super-X" load - metal piercing, IIRC - that did the same.

[Wil Terry]

The traditional 230gr hardball bullet all but never, EVER, stays in a human body but gives through and through penetration. This has been known for 80+ years. Please read up on your gun history!

[WonderNine]

You might want to read this thread through and through

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50821&highlight=.45+penetration

[Sean Smith]

.45 Super will give you 230gr @ 1,100 ft/sec. Probably want a heavier recoil spring, but it will shoot out of a .45 ACP handgun with no further modifications.

[care-less]

1050 fps with a 230g bullet from 45ACP? Wow, getting into the +P++range aren't we? Talk about accelerated wear on the weapon! OH Well, anything can be done if you're a mind to.

[BluesBear]

The traditional 230gr hardball bullet all but never, EVER, stays in a human body but gives through and through penetration. OK, PROVE IT! :scrutiny:

And don't give me that "read your history" baloney.
You might want to think this through and through since you brought that statement to the hoedown, you'd better be prepared to dance with it.

[WonderNine]

1050 fps with a 230g bullet from 45ACP? Wow, getting into the +P++range aren't we? Talk about accelerated wear on the weapon! OH Well, anything can be done if you're a mind to.

Yea, as I mentioned, I'm sure it's not a great idea in a standard 1911.

[Nero Steptoe]

.450SMC never got off the ground. Triton is belly-up. I've shot both .450 SMC and .45 Super through a Glock 21, changing only the recoil spring, with no problem.

[agtman]

Let's get serious ...


Nonexistent .45 Franken-mutant rounds like the 450SnotStomper never got off the ground, much less hit the shelves of your corner gunshop.

.45/230gn @ 1050? Well, the .45Super from Texas Ammo gives you something more than the BigSlo in .45acp, but why bother?

In 10mm AUTO, you can get a 220gn Poly-FP @ 1125fps/618fpe, or a 200gn FMJ-FP @ 1270fps/715fpe, or a 200gn XTP-HP @ 1250fps/694fpe - all without blowing up your 1911. ;)

'Course, you do need to get a 10mm pistol, :D but hey ...

See: http://www.doubletapammo.com/main_site/index.html

[JohnKSa]

Would 220 grains @ 1200fps satisfy you? It's called the 10mm...

[WonderNine]

No, it's not subsonic. But 10mm does interest me.

[zeke]

Check the Ramshot web site, although ain't tried Enforcer yet. Maybe another myth goes down the tubes, slow powders may work.

[5pins]

I have tried the Ramshot Enforcer load and get 1030fps with a 230gr bullet.

[Cal4D4]

"You can take -06 brass, trim it to .45acp length, expand it, ream the neck, light load it and fireform."

That would be the .451 Detonics from about 20 years+ ago.

[JohnKSa]

Just out of curiousity, why the subsonic requirement?

[Gun Runners Alaska]

Hello, just for trivias sake may I mention that the FBI once used a 230 hardball load manufactured by Super-Vel that chronographed an actual 1005fps from several 5" 1911s in testing.
BTW, you young bucks ought to realize that Wil Terry is the load development engineer for Corbon. Need I type that HE knows his way around performance ammunition?

[azrael]

230 at 1050??? hmmm I would go with a 10mm..

The corbon load for the 230 goes what 925-950 fps?? that should be enough for anyone in a regular .45

If you have to go with a bigger hammer and dont want to step up to the 10mm go with the .45super

Is the .45winmag still being loaded?? It did about 1050 or better..right? or am I sniffing to much glue?

the above thoughts are my own and are not to be interpreted as being endorsed by Azrael's Custom Leather and House of Chicken

[1911Tuner]

Pressures and Buffers and Springs...Oh My!

Let's not forget that increasing pressures enough to increase velocity 25% would be well ABOVE a 25% increase in pressure, which is a proof-level loading. It normally takes a 10% increase in pressure to realize a 5% increase in velocity. That means that your old 1911 would be absorbing pressures and thrust forces in .357 Magnum territory...a neighborhood that it was never intended to visit, not with the recoil impulse generated by a 230-grain bullet. 130 grains is pushing it, and the 10mm/200/1200 is stressing key areas of the gun at about 3 times the rate of the Hardball-spec load. The 1911 is over-engineered for that loading, but not for
a steady diet of a 50% overload.

The potential for damage isn't in the frame and slide impact sufraces. It's
not in the barrel link and slidestop pin either. Your main concern is the locking lugs on the barrel and in the slide. The thrust faces are where the
metal meets the metal.

Your locking lugs need to be at 100% engagement and all bearing evenly.
Good steel and heat treatment in the slide and barrel lugs/recesses too.
If you don't have this, the locking lugs will shear off pretty quickly. If one
is bearing most of the brunt, it will fail, and the others will follow suit pretty quickly in a sort of "Domino Effect."

Yes...it's important in the 10mm too...and even the .38 Super. The pistol
was designed to stand up to the .45 ACP STANDARD pressures. That the
gun will take a 50% overload of Bullseye or Unique without doing the
Fragmentation Shuffle, doesn't mean that it will take it very many times.
It won't blow up, but it won't endure for very long, either...and not even a
40-pound recoil spring will make any difference.

Remember:
(Amended to fit the question)

The pressures required to accelerate a 230-grain bullet to 1,000 fps
in 3.8 inches of rifling are more than sufficient to blow your eyeballs through the back of your head.

Just my nickel's worth...

Tuner

[Sean Smith]

By the way, Winchester Ranger-T RA45TP 230gr +P is 990 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. That's probably as close as you'll get.

[1911Tuner]

Sean said:

By the way, Winchester Ranger-T RA45TP 230gr +P is 990 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. That's probably as close as you'll get.

Bingo! The advice with a K-frame Smith & Wesson once was to practice
with .38s and carry .357s. There was a very good reason for that.
Even the L and N frames will shoot loose given enough full-pressure ammo,
and a M-57 will stand up to 210/1250 fps much better than a M-29 and
240/1250 fps. About twice as long, as it turns out...Ask me how I know:rolleyes: OH! The fine revolvers that I've shot apart...Wish I had'em
back.

Cheers!

Tuner

[natedog]

.45 Super and .45 SCM...I know the USP 45 can fire the .45 Super without modification, but can it fire the .45 Short Cased Magnum without modification, too? Which is more powerful?

[WonderNine]

By the way, Winchester Ranger-T RA45TP 230gr +P is 990 ft/sec from a 5" barrel.

In the 2002 Winchester LEO catalog the specs say 950fps.

[Vern Humphrey]

There's a simple solution to the problem. Buy some Starline .45 Super brass. This is identical to .45 ACP brass, but has a thicker web (head).

The key to hot loads in the M1911 (and some other pistols) is to undertand that the throat (the rounded out back end of the chamber which forms part of the "ramp") is the weak spot. The case wall is not supported there, and too much pressure will blow the case out. The thicker base of the .45 Super comes up past that point, so you have no thin case wall there, just solid brass.

Buy a 28-lb Wolff recoil spring (the correspoinding firing pin return spring comes in the same package, and MUST be used with the heavier recoil spring.) If your gun will function reliably with a buffer, install one.

Now you can load your .45 to rival a .41 Magnum, and it will still shoot ordinary full-charge .45 ACP loads.

But be careful -- do NOT fire one of these loads in a .45 with the standard 16 lb recoil spring and DEFINITELY do not make a mistake and load an ordinary .45 ACP case to these levels.

[happyguy]

OK, PROVE IT!

Prove that it doesn't. To my knowledge, which is more limited than I like to admit, the only statistics that have been published have been with 9 mm FMJ by the NYPD. I don't believe I've ever seen any statistical data on the .45 acp FMJ, one way or the other.

So I guess we're stuck with history, personal experience, war stories and anecdotal evidence.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[Preacherman]

If you want really hot performance out of the 1911 platform in .45 caliber, IMHO there's one safe way to go - fit a .460 Rowland top end (see here (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm) for details). The kit includes a compensator, stronger springs, etc. As I posted last year, 1,300+ fps with 230gr. bullets is routinely achieved. However, the recoil is interesting... definitely up in the Magnum class. I regard this as a hunting round rather than a SD load.


http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/images/clk165_460.jpeg

[Tactical]

Running quickly towards your opponent should gain another 15 fps or so.


Good one.:)

I can do atlease 20FPS. I use to be in track.:)

[ThreadKiller]

Since when isn't 230@900FPS enough?

Tim

[cratz2]

BTW, you young bucks ought to realize that Wil Terry is the load development engineer for Corbon. Need I type that HE knows his way around performance ammunition? Yeah... that's one of the funny things about internet forums. One guy with a proven background in the field can make a near universally known statement, then someone that has probably never seen a gunshot wound, has probably never done load development and has probably never done much penetration or chrono work comes along with a flip remark such as 'PROVE IT!' and thinks that everyone will now think that he's a big man instead of... what we know he has just proven himself to be. ;)

No offense, Blues. :p

On topic, is there a reason the +P Rangers won't fill the bill? Another thing to keep in mind is that if 'most rounds' are just barely subsonic, a couple might sneak through that aren't... A modern 230 Gr HP going close to 1,000 fps is gonna hurt whatever soft tissue it comes in contact with.

[Sean Smith]

In the 2002 Winchester LEO catalog the specs say 950fps.

I quoted the 2004 Winchester LEO catalog. ;)

http://winchester.com/lawenforcement/pdf/LE2004_ProductGuide.pdf

[BluesBear]

No offense taken cratz2.

One the really funny things about internet forums is that someone can disagree with someone and then be accused of being an inpompetent nimcompoop by someone who knows nothing of the person he is attempting to personally insult. Just or the record... it's damn near impossible to insult me.

I have the utmost resprct for Wil Terry. I do know who he is. But I am allowed to once or twice in my lifetime to disagree with him. That doesn't mean I don't respect him and his opinions, merely that I disagreed with that one statement. Even though I may disagree with him, I will never insult him.

As for me proving myself... What I will prove myself to be is a gentleman because I will not enter in your little urinals at 20 paces game. Since you don't have any idea about who I am, my background or what I have seen and participated in in my lifetime.


A thinly veiled ad hominum attack says more about your character than mine sir.

[clubsoda22]

The advertised velocity for winchester ranger talon 230gr .45+P is 980fps....that's getting pretty close.

[Frohickey]

Sounds like a weak 45Super load to me.

45Super is a trademark of Ace Custom Guns and is not out in the public domain. To use this, you are supposed to pay Ace Custom Guns something. Technically, its a 45ACP external dimension with thicker web area/case head, so the cases are not identical. It also uses a large primer.

45SMC is Triton's attempt to circumvent the 45Super trademark. Its a 45ACP external dimension with thicker web area/case head, plus it uses a small primer.

If Ace Custom Guns just allows the 45Super to get into the public domain, you might have more manufacturers go and try to qualify their pistols with 45Super loads. And who knows, the market for 45Super might actually go up from where its at now, which is at the bottom basement.

[1911Tuner]

First....BluesBear...You're a class act.:cool:

Second...At handgun velocities, terminal effect is detremined more by
bullet placement than impact energy until the velocity gets above the
1300-1350 fps range, at which point the bullet STARTS to create a large
enough temporary wound channel to become a factor. Below that
point, the target really won't be able to tell a lot of difference between
850 fps and a thousand. In other words, the immediate terminal effect
will be so close as to be a non-issue, even if the bullet expands.

While it's true that expansion has some effect, at velocities below
a certain level, the effect still hasn't gotten into enough hydrostatic
shock to be a real player. A bullet that heavy is still going to overpenetrate in most cases...even expanded...and energy will be
wasted, even though its slower passage/dwell time dumped more
energy into the target.

When I was busy with my part-time smithing business, I found myself
engaged in conversations with several local doctors from two large
area hospitals. These guys were dead into guns and shooting, and
one of the surgeons who did regular duty at the trauma center even
had a 4-lane indooor range in his basement. He saw dozens of gunshot
wounds a year, and he often spoke of what he had experienced.

One of the things that he flatly stated was that he could see zero difference in tissue destruction between a hollowpoint bullet and a
soft point or even a FMJ, except for a few that resulted from the
.357/125 bullet...He said that at first, he didn't know why the difference
until he started talking to the cops about the shootings. Since most of
them were personal friends of his, they disclosed to him the weapons
and calibers that had been used in the shootings, when that information
was known. He understood how destructive the .357 load was 10 years
before Marshall and Sanow began compiling data.

The conclusions? Added velocity helps to insure expansion and nothing more. Expansion below a certain level marginally increases the energy dump in the target, but mainly increases the chances of hitting something vital. Below a certain velocity level, blood loss and resulting blood pressure
drop is what shuts an attacker down, besides the psychological effect
of being shot. It bothers some and doesn't phase others. Some will
drop like a stone when hit in the foot by a .22 short, and some will keep coming and/or shooting after being shot through the lungs with a .44 Magnum. He told the story of one guy who had been shot twice with
00 Buckshot...and the cops had to restrain him long enough to get him
knocked out and into surgery. Blood tests showed zero drug influence.

Food for thinkin'...

Tuner

[Kilroy]

Stout recoil in the Glock 21, firing 230 grain bonded brass jacket hollow points at around 1300 fps. Bullets went about 23 inches in gellatin and turned inside out during their travel.

[another okie]

IF you have a strong, modern gun, you can load the .45 Colt up pretty hot if a revolver will work for you. There's lots of room in there for more powder. IF, IF, IF, you have a strong, modern gun.

[Sean Smith]

The advertised velocity for winchester ranger talon 230gr .45+P is 980fps

Oh for crying out loud, folks, if you can't be bothered to read the Winchester 2004 catalog that I linked to above to read the correct ballistics, here is a picture for you: :p

[WheelMan]

Wondernine:

What is the sub-sonic restriction for?

[VG]

Prove that it doesn't. To my knowledge, which is more limited than I like to admit, the only statistics that have been published have been with 9 mm FMJ by the NYPD. I don't believe I've ever seen any statistical data on the .45 acp FMJ, one way or the other. Sir, the Army Medical Corps has published one or more books called "The Wound Book" or the like. It contains pictures of U.S. and enemy soldiers hit by different weaponry, and the medical circumstances that resulted.

In a very hard-core unit, few officers could stomache more than a couple of pages of this treatise, which was available in the Operations Center of my old Army unit, probably to prove that no one is quite as tough as he thinks he is.

My primary conclusion is that if you get hit by just about any centerfire pistol cartridge, you're going to die or wind up seriously injured in a large pool of blood - 5-6' feet in diameter.

My second conclusion is that people who doubt the "stopping power" of 9mmP are uninformed. This round killed or seriously wounded many soldiers in WWII. None were improved, that's for sure.

Finally, it did not appear that .45 ACP routinely goes all the way through human beings. They did sometimes, blowing a large hole out the back of the enemy soldier unlucky enough to be shot. But depending on when, where, and how, the bullet seemed most often to stay in the unlucky b@st@rd who got shot. He would still often die, surrounded by an immense amount of blood and gore that will make most normal people vomit at the sight.

All this pistol rounds deliver a small fraction of the energy of just about any rifle, but still kill or seriously wound more often than not. Not directly responsive to the question initially asked in this thread, but there you have it as one bit of anecdotal evidence.

[1911Tuner]

I've never seen any statistical data on the .45 acp FMJ, one way or the other.
-----------------------

I don't have any statistical data, or pictures or wound trauma analysis...
but I do have some first-hand experience of the up close and personal
variety, and I have to agree with VG's assessment. To wit: If you are
shot in the torso with a .45 hardball round, it's very likely that you're gonna die...and pretty quickly. I can't see how a 200 fps increase in
impact velocity is going to make you any deader. An expanded hollowpoint
might well let more blood leak out on the gound, but probably not much more.

Likewise for the 9mm hardball. Anybody who turns their nose up at either one as "ineffective" has never seen it happen. I carry hardball without reservation. If I do my part, it'll take care of business just fine, and there's no issue about the "Killer Hollowpoint Bullets" to have to address in the courtroom during the aftermath. Why hand the prosecutor or civil litigator
any more ammunition than he already has?

"Well, your honor...I just wanted a box of ammo and it was the cheapest thing in the store." (And it is...)

Cheers!

Tuner

[cratz2]

I do appologize Blues... I think I was having a bad day when I posted that. And I think I might have been taking out my agressions towards some other folks (posters claiming to disagree with basically known facts) on you and again, for that I appoligize here... in public.

[1911Tuner]

Cratz...You're a class act. I'll buy you AND the BluesBear a cold one.:cool:

[cratz2]

In my best Cartman voice... SWEEETTT!!!

As long as it's a Labats. :p

And I'll buy Blues two. :)

[Mannlicher]

I make them all the time, but I shoot them in my 25-5 Smith revolver. The HydroShock 230 at its factory velocity works fine for me in my semi autos.

[BluesBear]

cratz2, no worries.

We all have our moments.
Some days are diamonds and some days are coal.

Like I said, it's damn near impossible to insult me.

And I wasn't really worried about it. Having read a fair number of your posts on various topics, most of the time I agree with you too.

[1911Tuner]

Ahhh...BluesBear, you're a gentleman and a scholar. This High Road draws
some classy folks, don't it? I guess that's why it's called The High Road!

Jammin'..
Tuner:cool:

[Thegman]

WonderNine,

I've found that the relationship P1/V1^2 = P2/V2^2 is pretty good for estimating potential pressures and velocities (it also agrees, more or less, with Tuner's rule of thumb of 10% pressure increase for ~ 5% velocity increase).

Let's assume that Winchester has managed make the most efficient 45 ACP +p possible by squeezing out 990 FPS while exactly hitting, but not exceeding 23,000 psi.

If this were the case, the least pressure one could hope for @ 1050 would be ~ 25,900 psi. In actuality, it could probably done with somewhat lower pressures, as powder tends to burn more efficiently at higer pressures.

Anyway, as someone stated, the load would likely be somewhere between +p and Super pressures. Sounds like Enforcer a powder worth trying in this application (AA#7 might also work well, and will give low flash).

As to how this load will affect your 1911; I'm not going to get in a pissing match with Tuner.

BTW, Tuner. What's your take, in general, on putting a limited amount of 45 Super through 1911s? (Assume shock buffs, oversize FP stops, and all that good stuff). How do they hold up over time? I've got a nice, hard chromed MK IV, all nicely set up for 45 Super, and I'm itching rev it up and take it around the block next week.

My 10mm 1911 (and those of many others) will easily make 260 PF without falling apart. (Although I don't run many of those through it)

[1911Tuner]

gman asked:

BTW, Tuner. What's your take, in general, on putting a limited amount of 45 Super through 1911s? (Assume shock buffs, oversize FP stops, and all that good stuff). How do they hold up over time? I've got a nice, hard chromed MK IV, all nicely set up for 45 Super, and I'm itching rev it up and take it around the block next week.

Howdy gman,

The answer is....it depends on the gun, or, more specifically, the barrel fit. Generally accepted wisdom would dictate that higher pressures will accelerate wear and shorten service life of any gun. Just how MUCH .45 Super would shorten the life of your pistol depends to a great extent on how much locking lug engagement it has. 70% lug engagement would hold up better than 60% but not as long as 90%, etc.

Then, there's the question of...even with 95-100% lug engagement, are
the lugs all bearing an equal amount of the stress?

These mechanical factors will affect the life of the gun with standard
pressure, or even "Softball" target ammo too...it just won't show up as
early as with the higher intensity stuff.

The 1911 is plenty strong enough to withstand extremely high pressures without turning into a grenade with a pistol grip...even the older ones...
assuming that the barrel provides adequate case-head support. The
wild card is the locking lugs,and how much of their surface is available to
take the pounding. If your pistol has close to 100%, with all lugs bearing equally, a limited amount will be fine. If it has 70%, it will tolerate less.
If one lug is bearing most of the load, the lug could be damaged or even
sheared off pretty quickly.

Luck!

Tuner

[Bopleo]

How about a .44 special at 1100 fps or more, with a 240 grain bullet, Elmer Kieth used to do this all the time.

[1911Tuner]

T'was said:

How about a .44 special at 1100 fps or more, with a 240 grain bullet, Elmer Kieth used to do this all the time.
----------------------------------

That was actually a 250 grain bullet at 1200 fps...and the load was 18
grains of 2400. Uncle Elmer also blew the loading gates off of more than
a couple of 1873 Colts with that load.

He also didn't have locking lugs and a reciprocating slide to contend with.
Apples to oranges...

Cheers!

Tuner

[Bopleo]

1911Tuner

I didnt know it was mentioned earlier, i didnt bother to read all the posts.

Elmer kieth was veryy succesful in hot rodding the .44 special which as you may know led to the .44 magnum. I was suggseting a similiar load and maybe a similiar weapon, not loading a .44 special in a automatic.

Why does one need to hot rod the .45 acp when we have the guns and rounds that deliver the same performance out of the box, this is of course if you dont have anything but a .45 auto, oh well.

[1911Tuner]

Bopleo said:

I was suggseting a similiar load and maybe a similiar weapon, not loading a .44 special in a automatic.

Ah! Okay. I thought it was a correlation between the .44 being overloaded safely and a souped-up .45 ACP in a 1911 or other autopistol.
We're on the same page now...

And while we're on it...Elmer was also the driving force behind the .41 Magnum. The .357 magnum came from the old 38-44 round, which was a
hotrodded .38 Special. So named because it was only meant to be fired in a large-framed revolver...a 38 on a 44 frame (N frame) and similar large Colts. Because, even though it was loaded to extreme pressures, it would still chamber in a K-frame-sized .38 Special revolver...with predictable results. The .357 was stretched out .100 inch to prevent this. When the
.44 magnum came along, the lessons learned from the 38-44 resulted in
a "stretched" .44 Special, and the rest is history.

Original .44 Magnum loading was a 240-grain swaged lead SWC with a gas check. This load turned in the highest velocities in the caliber for that weight bullet...I've chronographed some lots at 1450+fps from a 6-inch barrel. I still have some of that old ammunition, and it's apparent
that today's 240-grain loadings bring it down quite a bit. It didn't lead the
bores at all, due to the gas check, and I alwyas wondered why the original
158-grain swaged lead bullet of the .357 Magnum didn't get one too. Those .357s were hot, too, and they leaded the bores badly. I've seen
it coat the rifling so badly that after about 25 rounds, the riflling wasn't
visible. This is the load that was advertised at 1550 fps out of an 8 and
3/8ths inch barrel. Mostof it would hit very close to 1400 in a 6-inch tube,
but I never clocked any that would quite reach 1500 in a longer barrel.

FWIW, I've duplicated both loadings with 2400, and with only mild pressure
signs. I won't post the data here, though. You wheelgun hot rodders will
have to figure it out.
:p

Cheers!

Tuner

P.S. Who remembers the 38-44 Bain & Davis? WOWZER! (Nothing new under the sun it seems).:cool:

[1858rem]

maybe wondernine is looking to load accurate long range loads that might shoot flat, but unlikely i guess after reading the two holes leak better statement....... has he posted what he wants to load these for yet?

[longhorngunman]

Doubletap has a 230gr HP Gold Dot load that clocks 1014fps. Been using for carry ammo for awhile now. Supposedly it's not a +P loading either. It definetly feels warm but I always get good expansion out of that 230gr GD.

[Vern Humphrey]

Doubletap has a 230gr HP Gold Dot load that clocks 1014fps. Been using for carry ammo for awhile now.
What strength recoil spring are you using? Are you using a buffer?

[The Lone Haranguer]

This thread is over five years old. :confused: :p

As far as overpressure, overpowered ammunition is concerned, if you can control it in rapid fire and don't mind increased wear on the gun, go for it. I feel no need for it myself. :)

[longhorngunman]

Vern, ain't been shooting them out of a 1911, Glock, HK, and FN45 mainly.