Finally asked for my CHP


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halfded
March 6, 2010, 08:06 AM
I was finally asked for my CHP yesterday by the local county mounties.

We had gone to a friend's funeral and my wife and I were going to have lunch before she had to head to work. I was wearing my Taurus 856 in a Don Hume J.I.T. strongside about 4 oclock. I had my shirt tucked into khakis with a sport coat (I usually wear tshirt/sweatshirt and jeans, so I thought I looked pretty good), but can't wear the coat while I"m driving so I had it draped across the passenger seat.

I pulled up at the Wendy's, noticing the deputy standing by his cruiser finishing what appeared to be a milkshake. I, without thinking of my change in attire for the day, hopped out of the car and turned to lean across the seat and grab my jacket. I stood up again and donned my jacket, going from open to concealed carry. During this short process, I became aware that I was being watched by the officer, but couldn't really figure out why until I got my jacket on and realized what I had just done (nothing illegal, just really obvious to the deputy).

He waits for his partner to come out of the restaurant and starts across the parking lot.

"Good afternoon young man. You got a permit for that weapon you got stuck in your belt?" He is standing in a defensive posture and his partner is to my right at enough of an angle that he'd be able to shoot me before I could make the turn from his partner to him if I happened to be a BG, I suppose. Kinda funny actually, you could see the 3 of us analyzing the situation as it progressed.

I'm thinking to myself that it's not stuck in my belt, it's properly holstered on my person. I said "Yes sir, sure do. I'm going to reach for my wallet in my back left pocket to get it."

He agrees and I EVER SO SLOWLY pull out my wallet. "Here's my DL and here's my CHP."

He stands for a second scrutinizing my permit so I tell him "it expires 10/28 of this year". He looks at it for a moment longer, hands it back with a gruff "Thanks" and walked away abruptly.

For some reason I can't help but think that this is one of the anti-gun LEOs that are brought up here now and then. I think he thought that he was going to catch me on a technicality as far as going from open to concealed. Maybe he thought I didn't have a permit and didn't know that I needed one (which I'm sure he would have been happy to inform me of after relieving me of my property) or something along those lines.

Please bear in mind that I'm not bashing LEOs and know they have a job to do and have to maintain their safety first. Like I said, I just got the feeling that this guy was fishing for something to hassle me about. Slow day on the highway maybe?

Edit:
I'm sure someone will chime in and ask the necessity of carrying at a funeral. It's not the funeral I'm worried about, it's all the time between here and there that concerns me.

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mbt2001
March 6, 2010, 08:11 AM
Every time someone sees a speeder they say "WHERE ARE THE COPS???" when they ARE the speed they say "GO ARREST SOME REAL CRIMINALS!!!!"

Point is, he was doing his job, was polite for the most part didn't ask to handle your weapon and go nutty when a bullet was "chambered" and then unload it and tell you to keep it that way or anything. Just examined the your "papers" and left. Maybe he was irritated about having to ask if your "papers were in order".

You handled it well. If only ALL meeting went so smoothly! Sorry to hear about your recent loss... Did you at least get a frosty?

luigi
March 6, 2010, 08:20 AM
Maybe he was irritated about having to ask if your "papers were in order".

The OP wasn't doing anything illegal there was no reason for his papers to be asked for.

mbt2001
March 6, 2010, 08:24 AM
The OP wasn't doing anything illegal there was no reason for his papers to be asked for.

The LEO would have been bad at his job if he DIDN'T ask. If you were the LEO you would have asked. I would have. There are a LOT of criminals that get picked up for no tail lights or something and the cop then discovers a body in the back seat or likewise. His experience is telling him to check it out. Can't hate on that.

halfded
March 6, 2010, 08:29 AM
Just to clarify, in Virginia a CHP holder is not required to present "paperwork" at a traffic stop or any other time voluntarily, but must be able to present it on demand at any time a firearm is concealed.

I decided to take the High Road when he asked if I had one and volunteered to show it; rather than waste more of my time and tax money by being a jerk and saying something like "yes I do, would you like to see it?" or something smart alecky like that.

As for him being irritated about having to do his job; too bad, that's why my tax dollars just bought his biggie sized #3.

I think that if I hadn't put on my jacket and gone with open carry, this exchange wouldn't have occurred. It's when I put my jacket on and went to concealed carry that I really got his attention. Like I said, maybe he was trying to catch me on a technicality, maybe he was just going to politely inform me that I needed a permit if I didn't have one. The body language of these two officers insinuates that if I hadn't of been able to produce my permit, I'd have been cuffed and stuffed; maybe with a bit of prejudice.

Bottom line, I appreciate them doing their job (especially with the influx of wannabe gangbangers around here), but professional courtesy goes a long way. If I was really up to no good, would I really be dumb enough to open carry a shiny revolver in a shiny leather holster in broad daylight right in front of 2 LEOs? In my opinion, there was no need to speak to me in a condescending fashion, nor to approach me in such an aggressive fashion. The officer I spoke to directly was ready for a gunfight. See OP for details.

As an aside, I'm one of the few people with the intergrity to tell the truth when I get pulled over (not very often).

Cop: "Why were you speeding?"

Me: "Honestly, I didn't see you sitting there running radar sir."

huntsman
March 6, 2010, 08:37 AM
The OP wasn't doing anything illegal there was no reason for his papers to be asked for.

We live in America there shouldn’t be any PAPERS.

AirForceShooter
March 6, 2010, 08:41 AM
He did his job and did it well.
Reminding you it's ready to expire isn't a bad thing

AFS

Zach S
March 6, 2010, 08:42 AM
If I was really up to no good, would I really be dumb enough to open carry a shiny revolver in a shiny leather holster in broad daylight right in front of 2 LEOs?

You'd be surprised. The LEOs I know have more "dumb criminal" stories than you've seen on TV...

halfded
March 6, 2010, 08:43 AM
He didn't remind me, I reminded him. My permit is from a neighboring county so I think he had trouble finding the exp. date. Fortunately for him, I have all the information on my permit memorized. :cool:

wishin
March 6, 2010, 08:44 AM
I think it went well. The LEO may have thought you were trying to hide the handgun after spotting them, not really knowing you had a CCW. I guess he could have been friendlier, but in my experience, many of them take themselves much more seriously than their job; displaying the "I'm the man" mentality.

halfded
March 6, 2010, 08:52 AM
Another note:

In my area, the LEOs seem to lean to one extreme or the other. I've dealt with some that have seen my "man purse" on the seat next to me and never said a word. I've had my CC gun on the seat next to me, half covered by a hat, again nothing. Got stopped for a tail light out and the officer gave me the third degree about where I got my gun, how long have I had it, would I be opposed to him running the serial #, etc.

Guess it just depends on the officer's knowledge of the law and personal discretion.

jimmyraythomason
March 6, 2010, 09:20 AM
The OP wasn't doing anything illegal there was no reason for his papers to be asked for. He is required to have a permit to carry concealled. It was known to the officer that the OP was carrying concealled. The same if he was driving and was asked for his DL,or asked for a fishing license while fishing ,same thing. The officer was doing his job that we pay for with our taxes. Big difference than being radomly stopped and asked for "your papers".

Bhamrichard
March 6, 2010, 09:32 AM
Got stopped for a tail light out and the officer gave me the third degree about where I got my gun, how long have I had it, would I be opposed to him running the serial #, etc.

None of your business, also none of your business and if you think you have probable cause to do so, knock yourself out.

Alex23
March 6, 2010, 03:07 PM
Round here if you display your 'concealed' weapon you have broken the law. You would be highly unlikely to be charged with anything but this is all on you.

The officer had every right to check you out.

Try to keep it concealed next time, eh?

jimmyraythomason
March 6, 2010, 03:15 PM
Round here if you display your 'concealed' weapon you have broken the law But not here. Open carry is legal and no permit needed. Virginia may be different but since he wasn't arrested or charged he was likely okay there too.

halfded
March 6, 2010, 04:04 PM
Open carry is legal here, and depending on the area it's fairly common. No permit is required. As far as I know, transitioning from open to concealed isn't illegal either.

Try to keep it concealed next time, eh?

1. Why? I didn't do anything wrong.
2. This wasn't an attempt to display my status of being armed. I can't drive with the sport coat on. I parked between 2 other cars in an attempt not to draw attention to myself. It was either do it my way, leave the gun home or in the car (not an option), or rip the coat trying to drive in it. How would you have done it? Leave the jacket in the car and cause a stir in the Wendys? Consider the ripped jacket a fashion statement?

Not trying to jump on you but consider the circumstances before you make condescending remarks, eh? ;)

NavyLCDR
March 6, 2010, 04:13 PM
The same if he was driving and was asked for his DL,or asked for a fishing license while fishing ,same thing. The officer was doing his job that we pay for with our taxes. Big difference than being radomly stopped and asked for "your papers".

So, if a cop sees you driving, according to this rationale, it's OK for the cop to stop you and ask to see your driver's license, just because he sees you driving?

THE_POPE
March 6, 2010, 04:22 PM
You handled it the way any mature, intelligent gent would have, or should have, kudos to ya.....I have never been pulled over, but I also would be polite, not condenscending in the least, why poke a " bear" in the face without due cause ? ?

Even though I will agree that we really shouldn't need "papers", we live in the real world, where L/E's need to be cautious to live another day....

Half of the L/E's in my neck-o-the-woods have no problemo with citizen carry, half do, so it's a toss as to whether I would get hassled or not....I legally carry, yes, with papers, so it really doesn't matter to me if they see my pistol(s) as I can carry conceal, or not , in Indiana...

The more we, as a group, eleviate the irrational fears of the local constabulary , or the ordinary citizenry , the farther we go in our pursuit of true carry happiness.

I am OuT......peace, and safe shooting to all....:cool:

jimmyraythomason
March 6, 2010, 04:53 PM
No he can't NavyLT BUT he CAN and does ask for your license once he has you stopped. They DO have road blocks simply for the purpose of checking licenses and other required registration and equipment.

Bovice
March 6, 2010, 05:00 PM
^^that's true. I've been through a couple of them. They just look at your license, look at your insurance documents (make sure they're current and apply to that vehicle) then on your way you go. If you've got a light out or something, they can give you a "fix it" ticket, but that's about all.

ATBackPackin
March 6, 2010, 05:06 PM
Could have gone better (or not at all), but certainly could have gone a lot worse. From what you said I wouldn't necessarily say he is against ccw, but he didn't have to be patronizing either. I have a lot of respect for LE, but there are a few out there with such power trips that it makes even law abiding citizens wary of them. Very unfortunate.

The other example you gave though would have me absolutely livid. Some LEO's really think we live in a police state.

You sir however did handle it exactly perfect. Very professional and then came here to rant and let off some steam.

I applaud your tactfulness.

Shawn

chris in va
March 6, 2010, 05:07 PM
That's awesome. He was all revved up to bust you on a concealed weapon, and you popped his balloon.

jimmyraythomason
March 6, 2010, 05:14 PM
you popped his balloon.It just don't get any better than that!

Alex23
March 6, 2010, 05:26 PM
Open carry is legal here, and depending on the area it's fairly common. No permit is required. As far as I know, transitioning from open to concealed isn't illegal either.
It may be legal but you can't really be surprised about this can you? Open carry raises eyebrows as it is - and you were not open carrying you were failing, for a moment, to properly concealed carry. See the difference and why it might interest a cop?

Quote:
Try to keep it concealed next time, eh?
1. Why? I didn't do anything wrong.
2. This wasn't an attempt to display my status of being armed. I can't drive with the sport coat on. I parked between 2 other cars in an attempt not to draw attention to myself. It was either do it my way, leave the gun home or in the car (not an option), or rip the coat trying to drive in it. How would you have done it? Leave the jacket in the car and cause a stir in the Wendys? Consider the ripped jacket a fashion statement?

Not having a pop at you but I'd find a way to carry so as not to raise suspicion. You can complain about the cops all you like but what you did was highly likely to raise an eyebrow.
Not trying to jump on you but consider the circumstances before you make condescending remarks, eh?
Thank you, I have considered them. And I know that one thing that *definitely* gets cops attention is this.

I'm just suggesting you dress around your gun more effectively so that you don't have to make another post like this.

labhound
March 6, 2010, 07:11 PM
I think you handled it correctly. Keep in mind the LEO sees someone get out of a car and then conceals his handgun. Like you said, here in Virginia open carry is legal and concealed requires a permit. I think he did right by checking with you. No harm no foul. Keep in mind two security officers at the Pentagon were shot yesterday by someone walking up to them with two concealed handguns. This may have had them and a lot of other LEO's a little more on the "alert" side.

stickhauler
March 6, 2010, 07:16 PM
He didn't remind me, I reminded him. My permit is from a neighboring county so I think he had trouble finding the exp. date. Fortunately for him, I have all the information on my permit memorized.

Aren't Virginia permits a standardized form? I know Ohio's are.

luigi
March 6, 2010, 07:40 PM
If you were the LEO you would have asked.

No, I wouldn't

halfded
March 6, 2010, 07:43 PM
Thanks for all the responses guys. Not really talking about them questioning my legality to carry so much as the attitude in which the situation was handled.

Luckily this won't be happening again in the near future as I don't dress up like that but once in a blue moon. I know I probably should have found something better to wear, but I'm not gonna spend good money on a suit that I'm never gonna wear. The one I had was fine, just a little small in the shoulders, warranting the extra caution hen driving. Maybe this whole thing was a result of my cheapness! On any normal day when I wear what I want, there's no chance this guy would have spotted me.

Virginia permits are a standardized form but are still issued by the applicant's resident county. Can't say if they're different or not, or how much. Never seen anyone' permit but my own.

model of 1905
March 6, 2010, 09:20 PM
Every time someone sees a speeder they say "WHERE ARE THE COPS???" when they ARE the speed they say "GO ARREST SOME REAL CRIMINALS!!!!"

Point is, he was doing his job, was polite for the most part didn't ask to handle your weapon and go nutty when a bullet was "chambered" and then unload it and tell you to keep it that way or anything. Just examined the your "papers" and left. Maybe he was irritated about having to ask if your "papers were in order".

You handled it well. If only ALL meeting went so smoothly! Sorry to hear about your recent loss... Did you at least get a frosty?


Ze papers, I need to see ze papers.

I guess you are OK with the government stealing your rights and liberties?

shockwave
March 6, 2010, 09:24 PM
I guess you are OK with the government stealing your rights and liberties?

Where did the OP say any such thing? Seems like there's a gang of people on this board who are one-trick ponies. Anybody says they get a permit, that means they are endorsing full-on totalitarian fascism. I think comments like the one above need to get toned down a little.

Fact is, carrying a firearm around means that sooner or later you may have some interactions with law enforcement and I, for one, find details about these encounters to be informative and helpful. Yammer about "rights and liberties" that has zero bearing on the matter? Not so much.

wishin
March 6, 2010, 10:31 PM
^^ Amen.........

TexasBill
March 7, 2010, 12:05 AM
You noticed the deputy and the deputy probably noticed you. I would imagine in the process of getting your jacket, the deputy could see your gun. You at that time are carrying openly, which I believe is legal, but elect to put on a jacket, concealing the weapon, which requires a permit. The deputy makes the assumption that you, having seen him, are trying to conceal a weapon. Any cop with a moiety of his marbles is going to be made curious by your actions and investigate. Since you acted in what, to him, appeared to be in a suspicious manner, he acted appropriately. You presented your license, he examined your license, and took no further action. What's your beef?

I don't mean to be hard on you but as I read your narrative, I kept wondering why you took the actions that you did. I would certainly have asked you about it and I would certainly have been cautious in case you didn't have a good answer.

I agree we shouldn't have to have licenses, but they are currently a fact of life and there are jails and fines for people who don't believe that. You agreed to work with the system when you applied for your CHL and you did so in this instance.

model of 1905
March 7, 2010, 12:22 AM
Where did the OP say any such thing? Seems like there's a gang of people on this board who are one-trick ponies. Anybody says they get a permit, that means they are endorsing full-on totalitarian fascism. I think comments like the one above need to get toned down a little.

Fact is, carrying a firearm around means that sooner or later you may have some interactions with law enforcement and I, for one, find details about these encounters to be informative and helpful. Yammer about "rights and liberties" that has zero bearing on the matter? Not so much.



Look, Mr. 400 posts in two months, if you had read the quote in my post you would know I wasn't referring to the OP. I really could give a damn about what you are interested in. Learn a little respect.

JoeSlomo
March 7, 2010, 03:25 AM
No issue imo.

Police on the scene, see's a firearm being concealed, confirms it is legal to do so, and that is that. Individual in question presents his permit, and goes about his business. I'd rather that incident take place than if a criminal had concealed a weapon in front of an officer and gone inside and whacked his girlfriend or something...

I'm curious if the officer would have said anything had the OP just gone inside while simply open carrying.

ChaoSS
March 7, 2010, 03:42 AM
If you were the LEO you would have asked.

No, I think many of us would not have, if we were LEOs. I think the main difference between a guy like me and the wrong kind of LEO is that they see everyone as a potential criminal. They have no problems exercising and abusing their authority in the hopes of finding something amiss. They have no problems trying to coerce someone into submitting to a search in the hopes of finding something illegal.


No, they aren't doing anything illegal, but their attitude sure sucks. It may net more arrests, but at what cost?

Alex45ACP
March 7, 2010, 03:47 AM
Even though I will agree that we really shouldn't need "papers", we live in the real world, where L/E's need to be cautious to live another day....

I'm not cop-bashing here, but I'm tired of seeing this argument used to justify police militarization and other excesses.

First of all, police work really isn't that dangerous. Sure, it's more dangerous than being an accountant, but let's gain some perspective here. In the US in 2004, 57 law enforcement officers were killed in violent incidents in the line of work. That's out of about 700,000 officers (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/law_enforcement_personnel/index.html). Delivering pizzas is more dangerous than being a cop.

Secondly, police officers choose their occupation willingly. No one is forcing them into it. The risks are small, and they accept them when they take the job. If you can't stand the heat, you don't get to trample on my rights. Get a new job.

As to this incident, I'll just say I can think of many other more productive things the officer in question could have spent his time and the taxpayers' dollars doing instead.

rswartsell
March 7, 2010, 04:04 AM
Hmmm, references to "professional courtesy" and acting very "professional". Just curious guys, professional what?

Alex45acp, don't agree with you at all on behalf of the many good LEO's that put it on the line (I know they aren't all heros, but from the good ones), you are welcome.

No I'm not a LEO, but it doesn't damage my rights at all to respect the good ones. Many of the most respected members of THR are or were LEO. Your simplistic view of the dangers of the profession and the risks routinely faced explain a poor understanding of what they must do to mitigate these risks and get home at night.

P.S. and if more of them died in the line of duty each year you would probably call them incompetent.

Ed4032
March 7, 2010, 06:52 AM
I got stopped a few years ago. After running my drivers license the cop came back and asked me about my CHL. I told him it had expired and I did not carry any more. (the truth). He lectured me about how important it is to renew and carry. Handed me my drivers license back and told me to drive safe. But this Texas, a free state. I got my license renewed after that.

halfded
March 7, 2010, 09:22 AM
Double Tap..

halfded
March 7, 2010, 09:23 AM
Since you acted in what, to him, appeared to be in a suspicious manner, he acted appropriately. You presented your license, he examined your license, and took no further action. What's your beef?

SO a person getting out of their car in dress attire and then putting on a suit jacket is suspicious? I see suspicious people every day then. I know I wouldn't want to wrinkle a $600 jacket if I had one. Going from open to concealed carry is legal in my state (for the umpteenth time) so even if suspicious he had no justified reason to bother me.

My "beef" isn't so much that he stopped to talk to me (again previously stated) but the attitude and body language presented during our little meet and greet. The deputy (as stated in my OP) seemed as though he was sniffing around trying to catch something. I don't appreciate being approached as though I'm on a felony traffic stop while I'm having lunch with my wife.

I don't mean to be hard on you but as I read your narrative, I kept wondering why you took the actions that you did. I would certainly have asked you about it and I would certainly have been cautious in case you didn't have a good answer.

And who are you to be hard on me? No offense, but you weren't there. I posted this as an informative read for those (me included) that like to read about LEO encounters to get some ideas how to better handle the situation when/if it arises. No where did I ask for advice or say "how did I do" or "is there anything I could have done idfferently". The event can't be replayed, but if it could I wouldn't change it. I was in the right and handled myself properly as far as I'm concerned.

If you had read the other replies I had posted in the thread, you wouldn't be questioning why I took the actions I did. Let me recap them for you though just to make things easier.

I don't dress up but maybe once a year and as such, don't feel the need to buy a new suit jacket every time I gain or lose a little weight. The jacket I was wearing is a little small across the shoulders and I was afraid that it would rip if I tried to drive with it on. When I got to the restaurant, I found a spot where I was visibly isolated from others when I got out of the car so I could throw my jacket on real quick. I saw the patrol car sitting there, but paid it no mind since most of the LEOs around here aren't of the mindset of this particular deputy I spoke with. As I got out of the car, jacket in hand, I immediately spun 180 degrees so my handgun was facing the brick wall of a building, hidden by the A-pillar of my car. Then I put my jacket on. There was a span of time of maybe 2-3 seconds as I stood and turned, in which time the deputy must have seen my gun. Let me hazard a guess to say that he was doing his job and observing his surroundings and, noticing a newcomer to the parking lot, directed his attention toward me. He was in his car waiting for his partner and I was the only activity I could see in the parking lot at that time.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion as to what happened and the actions I took.

woad_yurt
March 7, 2010, 09:32 AM
If I was really up to no good, would I really be dumb enough to open carry a shiny revolver in a shiny leather holster in broad daylight right in front of 2 LEOs?

Maybe not you but some wrongdoers don't act so "prudently." Remember Joel Rifkin, the serial killer from Long Island? They caught him because he was driving without any license plate on his pickup. He had a very ripe cadaver under a tarp right in the bed of his truck.

NCSteveH
March 7, 2010, 09:34 AM
"Thanks for all the responses guys. Not really talking about them questioning my legality to carry so much as the attitude in which the situation was handled"



The attitude that they took with you is not to be construed as aggressive or rude, It is basic survival in law enforcement, 2vs1 is better than 1vs1, the officers being spread apart gives them a tactical advantage should things go bad, the fact that you said that they realized you were sizing up the situation as they were sizing up you would have put any LEO into very high situational awareness. Most of these guys have families and just want to go home at the end of their shifts instead of to the hospital or worse the morgue. Sometimes you just have to look at it through the other shoes eyes. It all ended well, just as it should have.

halfded
March 7, 2010, 10:18 AM
I'm familiar with the mindset trained in law enforcement as far as being the dominant body in a situation.

I'm also familiar with rude.

I'd hope his situational awareness was up before he even started to approach me as well. I understand that they don't know me or my intentions and as such I understand their perceived need to have the upper hand on me.

Also, this is the first time I"ve had an encounter like this with any police officer in the area. I'm not stopped very often, but I do keep my handgun on the passenger seat on longer trips so it doesn't dig into my back, and have never had an issue when stopped for registration or anything. I've even asked them if they want to see it (when I first got it) and was rather disappointed when they looked disinterested and said "No thanks".

I just think that:
"Afternoon young man, you got a permit for that weapon you got stuck in your belt?"

Could have been substituted by:
"Excuse me sir, can I see your CHP for the handgun that you're carrying?"

I didn't have baggy pants and a hoodie on mexican carrying; I was dressed in slacks and a dress shirt carrying a well cared for revolver in a proper holster.

As a side note on "things going bad" for the officers; cops don't get shot, or even shot at, around here very often at all. There has been one LEO death in recent history that I'm aware of. That officer (coincidentally the same guy I took my CCW class from) was looking for a suspect in an assault case (I believe), and was ambushed and shot in the back of the head.

Reason for caution? Yes. Anything about the above situation and mine relative? Nope. Relevance to this conversation? Probably close to zero, but it might provide some insight to the type of town I live in. They aren't exactly bombarded daily with gunfire and SWAT operations and the like.

Now that I think about it, I think that's the deputy that works the door at all the gun shows, which means he's surely seen me before not only in possession of firearms, but actively purchasing them as well (on the books, not private sales). He never looks too happy about being there though.

Oh well, maybe next time I'll get one of you guys and we can chat for a minute!

Webbj0219
March 7, 2010, 10:52 AM
CHP? California Highway Patrol? or CCW. Thats what that makes me think of. Sorry for my duh moment.

spaceCADETzoom
March 7, 2010, 11:10 AM
Now that I think about it, I think that's the deputy that works the door at all the gun shows, which means he's surely seen me before not only in possession of firearms, but actively purchasing them as well (on the books, not private sales). He never looks too happy about being there though.

Maybe that deputy is just naturally sour. Whether or not he intends to be, maybe he's just one of those guys that comes off as that way. Might have came off the same way if he were asking about your car or a broken tail light. Probably can't read too much into "gruffness." Maybe write him off as a jerk and be on your way.

Alex23
March 7, 2010, 11:54 AM
I just think that:
"Afternoon young man, you got a permit for that weapon you got stuck in your belt?"

Could have been substituted by:
"Excuse me sir, can I see your CHP for the handgun that you're carrying?"


I think you need to grow a thicker skin, honestly. You just wanted to be called Sir? LOL.

NavyLCDR
March 7, 2010, 12:12 PM
But this Texas, a free state.

Ed, I must vehemently disagree with you regarding that statement. In the state of Texas, in order for a person to have the means available to protect themselves in public, outside their home or car, that person must PAY to obtain a training certificate, PAY the state of Texas for PERMISSION to carry a firearm, and then is very limited as to what method they may use to carry that firearm. How can that possibly be viewed as FREE?

Personally, I think this demonstrates what part of our problem is today. We consider it "exercising our freedom" to carry a firearm that we have to pay to obtain a permit for. We consider it "perfectly acceptable" and "only doing his job" when a police officer, absent any hint - let alone reasonable and articulable suspicion - of a crime being committed, stops a perfectly law abiding citizen and asks if he is licensed. I am sorry, I don't consider any of that to be freedom.

Alex23
March 7, 2010, 12:30 PM
Ed, I must vehemently disagree with you regarding that statement. In the state of Texas, in order for a person to have the means available to protect themselves in public, outside their home or car, that person must PAY to obtain a training certificate, PAY the state of Texas for PERMISSION to carry a firearm, and then is very limited as to what method they may use to carry that firearm. How can that possibly be viewed as FREE?

Personally, I think this demonstrates what part of our problem is today. We consider it "exercising our freedom" to carry a firearm that we have to pay to obtain a permit for. We consider it "perfectly acceptable" and "only doing his job" when a police officer, absent any hint - let alone reasonable and articulable suspicion - of a crime being committed, stops a perfectly law abiding citizen and asks if he is licensed. I am sorry, I don't consider any of that to be freedom.

Agree with you about paying for the 'training' and license but still don't have any problem with an LEO asking to see my CHL if I effectively brandish a gun. Lots of crooks out there carrying who get caught like this all the time...as for the way he was dressed? Total red herring.

Bottom line is that they were polite and reasonable and it took maybe 1 minute out of his day.

I got pulled over a few times for suspected moving violations in LA at night. Both times the cops advanced from either side of the car with the pistols drawn and in the low position. Slightly intimidating sure, but I seem to recall traffic stops at night in the valley are not exactly low risk. Cut them some slack eh?

thorazine
March 7, 2010, 01:23 PM
The deputy makes the assumption that you, having seen him, are trying to conceal a weapon. Any cop with a moiety of his marbles is going to be made curious by your actions and investigate. Since you acted in what, to him, appeared to be in a suspicious manner, he acted appropriately.

Indeed.

Because owning and lawfully carrying firearms (open and or concealed) indicates -- bad person better investigate. :D

NavyLCDR
March 7, 2010, 01:41 PM
Cut them some slack eh?

And at what point should we stop "cutting them some slack?" Is it when they tell him to "assume the position" against the wall so they can disarm him and frisk him for further weapons before asking if he has a permit? If we are saying that it is OK for the officer to require the subject to answer the question "do you have a permit" or to produce that permit, then are we not saying that it would be OK for the officer to detain that person until it can be ascertained they do have a permit? And if that person is detained, lawfully, then the frisk and disarming "for officer safety" would also be legal. Maybe it is when they feel the need to handcuff him and retrieve his wallet themselves to see if he has a permit? Maybe it's when they face plant him on the ground with a gun pointed at him and a knee in the back? All of these types of incidents have happened in the past...

All I am saying is the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think we, as pro-2A people, many times are entirely too complacent to let those lines be drawn entirely too close to our side of the playing field.

coloradokevin
March 7, 2010, 01:46 PM
...The body language of these two officers insinuates that if I hadn't of been able to produce my permit, I'd have been cuffed and stuffed; maybe with a bit of prejudice.

Bottom line, I appreciate them doing their job (especially with the influx of wannabe gangbangers around here), but professional courtesy goes a long way. If I was really up to no good, would I really be dumb enough to open carry a shiny revolver in a shiny leather holster in broad daylight right in front of 2 LEOs? In my opinion, there was no need to speak to me in a condescending fashion, nor to approach me in such an aggressive fashion. The officer I spoke to directly was ready for a gunfight.

Don't read too much into the body language thing. Police officers are trained in tactics for "field interview" situations, with an emphasis on being able to do their jobs safely. It isn't about overtly aggressive behavior, but more about being able to survive if the situation goes sideways. If you were a police officer, would you rather put yourself in a tactically advantageous position as you approached an unknown armed person, or one in which you and your partner could be easily ambushed? It isn't like he drew his gun on you from behind cover and ordered you to the ground, or held his hand firmly on his gun while he spoke to you... From your description it sounds as if his partner merely stood off to the side, just as a "cover officer" is trained to do during a contact.

After doing this job for a while, I've found that it is almost second nature for me to adjust my stance while talking to people, or not stand in front of a door that I'm knocking on. I am polite to the people I deal with, and I don't try to make law-abiding citizens feel like criminals. But, I still approach each situation with due caution, especially if I already know that the subject of a contact is armed!

The officers didn't know who you were, or what you were doing, but they did know that you were armed. Based on your original post, it sounds as if they were polite enough in doing their jobs, and didn't detain you for an unreasonable amount of time.

As for the question of whether or not you would be "stupid enough" to do that in front of the police if you were a criminal, you might be surprised! A lot of criminals are really really stupid. I had someone shoplift in front of me at a 7-11 the other day, even after they turned around and saw me standing there in uniform. Some criminals are smart, but our jails and prisons are full of a whole lot of them who are not!


I don't appreciate being approached as though I'm on a felony traffic stop while I'm having lunch with my wife.

If that was the case, the officers would have called you out of your car at gun-point, handcuffed you and your wife (after possibly proning you out on the ground, depending on their method of performing a felony stop), and they would have done so as they pointed guns at you from a position of cover. I don't mean to seem critical of you here, but I think we should try to keep this in perspective! They clearly DID NOT treat you as if they were conducting a felny traffic stop!

halfded
March 7, 2010, 01:54 PM
Maybe write him off as a jerk and be on your way.

Done before my double stack and fries.

I think you need to grow a thicker skin, honestly. You just wanted to be called Sir? LOL.

No, that's not what I was referring to. Merely an example.

Agree with you about paying for the 'training' and license but still don't have any problem with an LEO asking to see my CHL if I effectively brandish a gun. Lots of crooks out there carrying who get caught like this all the time...as for the way he was dressed? Total red herring.

Let's get our facts straight here (and I'll cut you some slack since, in my personal opinion, you haven't been around long enough to be making such brass statements without doing your homework.) Going from open to concealed carry in VA is NOT A CRIME FOR THE LAST TIME!! Here's the definition of brandishing:

Main Entry: 1bran·dish
Pronunciation: \ˈbran-dish\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English braundisshen, from Anglo-French brandiss-, stem of brandir, from brant, braund sword, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English brand
Date: 14th century

1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner

As for the red herring comment, I don't follow. Maybe I"m missing the point but I don't see how I attempted to deceive the officer into thinking anything. Sorry if my style of dress doesn't fit with the elitist, upper crust mentality that only the wealthy should own firearms.

Sounds like you Texas guys are kinda sore that VA might actually have a little bit more lax laws than yours huh?

BTW, CHP is concealed handgun permit in VA.

Guess the traffic stop reference was a little extreme. Somehow in the course of this conversation it has gotten to be that I have some animosity toward these officers or LEOs in general. I DO NOT! I recognize they were doing their jobs, if not a bit overzealously. I just made comment that their interpersonal skills could be improved a little.

The main point of this thread was just to relate the experience I had for the education, information, and amusement of others. Looks like we've at least got the amusement part down huh?:D:D

Alex23
March 7, 2010, 01:58 PM
Lots of strawmen...

Deanimator
March 7, 2010, 02:21 PM
Not having a pop at you but I'd find a way to carry so as not to raise suspicion.
Neither he nor I live in Texas. We don't have the slightest duty to conform to Texas law. I certainly have no intention of doing so.

Nobody has to like the law, merely conform to it, nothing more nothing less.

The cop is free to dislike open carry. He's also free to keep those opinions to himself. If he can't do that, then it's "Am I free to leave, officer?" If not, it's "I have nothing further to say without my attorney present."

You're NOT going to lecture me against my will about something that's perfectly legal where I live. If you do, there will be negative consequences tailored to the magnitude of your contempt for the law. That's completely nonnegotiable.

USAav8r
March 7, 2010, 02:29 PM
From the op, it sounds like the only legitimate complaint is the LEO's attitude. Good enough, he has a crappy attitude. Those people are in every line of work. You really cant complain about posture or body language any more than you could complain that a LEO approached your car on a traffic stop with his gun hand free making you feel he might shoot you.
As far as the LEO "fishing for something", he is allowed to. It's called being a good cop. Sure, you think your tax dollars are better spent elsewhere. He pays taxes too. Fact is, it is very hard, if not impossible for there to be a happy medium between having a 100% free society and a 100% governed society.
I, having been a LEO can't stand the us vs. them mentality that some cops have and, I am by no means saying I agree with the way constitutional rights seem to be slipping away more and more each day.

wtfd661
March 7, 2010, 02:40 PM
I just made comment that their interpersonal skills could be improved a little.

So the whole point of your rant is that he wasn't polite enough for you. WOW, thank God you have never had a day when, whatever job you do, you have spoke to every single person courteously. Don't even try to attempt to say that you have. Everyone is human, give it a rest and move on with your life. :rolleyes:

If nothing else though at least you gave the members here who are anti-cop some where were they could do some more LEO bashing and feel really good about themselves. :evil:

ChaoSS
March 7, 2010, 02:53 PM
ColoradoKevin and any other cops here, I have a question for you. Imagine that I and a friend are walking down the street one day and you decide to approach us for some reason. You begin to talk to me, and I face you, as my friend moves into position behind you, off to the side a bit. We politely ask you for your gun, for our own safety.

Sound good? Sound like something that you would be ok with? Of course not. So why do you think that when you do it to a civilian that you are just fishing with, that it is anything less than an intimidation tactic. Why should that be standard training?

orionengnr
March 7, 2010, 03:00 PM
He did his job and did it well.
Reminding you it's ready to expire isn't a bad thing
Since said expiration date is seven month out, I do not view that as a courtesy, but as an (ill-advised) attempt at intimidation.
How would you take it is you handed him your car's registration and he said "You do know this exires end of October, right?" I'd have laughed in his face.

halfded
March 7, 2010, 03:18 PM
Let me say this one last time. THIS WAS NOT A RANT!!! I've said that a number of times already. Just relating the experience and made COMMENT about the behavior of the officers.

Another thing I'd like to say: Please read ALL THE WAY THROUGH the ENTIRE THREAD before posting a reply. I keep repeating myself due people not reading follow up postings and making assumptions.

Like the post above; I told HIM that my permit expired in October, not the other way around. Yet there's been at least 3 posts about whether or not it was courteous of him or not to tell me.

I know I put this up for others to read and make comment/talk about, but READ IT FIRST!!

See!! Now I'm ranting.. Look what you guys started..:D

TO those that had something useful to say (regardless of whether you agree with my point of view or not), thank you.

To those that are flying through posts looking to make witty retorts and smart alecky, I'm better than you remarks, don't you have a caliber war to attend? :evil:

ChaoSS
March 7, 2010, 03:48 PM
Yeah, but I still don't think he should have reminded you that it was expiring soon.

:P

NavyLCDR
March 7, 2010, 04:04 PM
don't you have a caliber war to attend?

No, but there is an open vs. concealed carry thread just calling my name! :evil:

Ed4032
March 7, 2010, 04:53 PM
You should be carrying a 45 because everyone knows it is a fact that anything else will just bounce off bare skin. Caliber war started ...

Alex45ACP
March 7, 2010, 05:00 PM
Alex45acp, don't agree with you at all on behalf of the many good LEO's that put it on the line (I know they aren't all heros, but from the good ones), you are welcome.

No I'm not a LEO, but it doesn't damage my rights at all to respect the good ones. Many of the most respected members of THR are or were LEO. Your simplistic view of the dangers of the profession and the risks routinely faced explain a poor understanding of what they must do to mitigate these risks and get home at night.

P.S. and if more of them died in the line of duty each year you would probably call them incompetent.

Logical fallacy: ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).

Do you have a logically sound counter argument to my post?

simulatedjim
March 7, 2010, 07:26 PM
I think the whole situation could have been avoided by the OP carrying a glock or sig or hk but not a shiny revolver. I think they would have assumed some type of LEO with an auto.

X-Rap
March 7, 2010, 07:41 PM
A cop sees a gun IWB exposed then it gets covered up? I guess I can't blame them for asking for the permit, I've had it happen to me when I got out of my truck and was pulling on a jacket, cop drove around the corner and stopped, stood by his car and asked if I had a permit. I said yes and went to his car to give it to him and he said have a nice day. If the cop commenced to lecture me on how I was a danger to myself and others blah blah I would be pissed. Sounds like the OP's situation was much like mine so I don't see a big deal with it.
I would like to see VT.,AK. right to carry but until then it is a requirement to have a permit when in public and for a cop its part of his job.

Deanimator
March 7, 2010, 07:48 PM
A cop sees a gun IWB exposed then it gets covered up? I guess I can't blame them for asking for the permit, I've had it happen to me when I got out of my truck and was pulling on a jacket, cop drove around the corner and stopped, stood by his car and asked if I had a permit. I said yes and went to his car to give it to him and he said have a nice day. If the cop commenced to lecture me on how I was a danger to myself and others blah blah I would be pissed. Sounds like the OP's situation was much like mine so I don't see a big deal with it.
I had a similar situation in a Caribou Coffee. Things were reasonable until the cop started waxing ignorant about "inducing panic". I flat refused to back down, despite his juvenile attempts at intimidation. The Chief got a letter (with copy to my attorney) informing him that if that officer acted on his ignorance, bad things would happen.

If you're a cop and don't want to know the law you're ENFORCING RIGHT NOW, get another job or get a lawyer, a GOOD one. And if you want look like a horse's behind, justify your ignorance with "I'm a cop!".

model of 1905
March 7, 2010, 08:06 PM
Folks, try to remember that most cops think they are the "only ones".

NavyLCDR
March 7, 2010, 08:22 PM
I think the whole situation could have been avoided by the OP carrying a glock or sig or hk but not a shiny revolver. I think they would have assumed some type of LEO with an auto.

Carry a Taurus and you can "escape" before the cop can stop laughing!

halfded
March 7, 2010, 08:32 PM
Carry a Taurus and you can "escape" before the cop can stop laughing!

That hurt.. :(;)

Funny, my Taurus never gave me any problems. A few of the S&W's on the other hand...

jimmyraythomason
March 7, 2010, 08:34 PM
Well I guess if you can't get a decent caliber war started ,a brand war will do!

ChaoSS
March 7, 2010, 09:25 PM
Brand wars happen when non Taurus owners get jealous and lash out.

jimmyraythomason
March 7, 2010, 09:28 PM
BTW, what were we talking about again?

NavyLCDR
March 7, 2010, 09:35 PM
Brand wars happen when non Taurus owners get jealous and lash out.

HAHA! My only carry gun at the moment is a Taurus PT-145. I don't like it though, the only thing it will shoot reliably is Hornady TAP. My all time favorite gun was a Taurus PT-92. I absolutely loved it. I lost it when my soon-to-be-ex wife sold it along with 12 other guns before the divorce trial :fire:.

I really want to get a PT-945 and replace the 92, too.

ChaoSS
March 7, 2010, 09:56 PM
My only experience with Taurus is with the revolvers, and from what I've heard, all the revolvers are great and the autos, not so much.

cassandrasdaddy
March 7, 2010, 09:58 PM
sounds like you are in my neck of the woods? near fredericksburg? what type/county cop was it? the cops around here deal with more than you imagine i just got my bubble busted when they busted a club on rt 17 for amongst other things being a ms 13 hangout.

jimmyraythomason
March 7, 2010, 10:06 PM
i just got my bubble busted when the busted a club on rt 17 for amongst other things being a ms 13 hangout.
I have no idea what you said but it SOUNDS bad!

cassandrasdaddy
March 7, 2010, 10:12 PM
lol i live between richmond and dc in what i considered a safe area. they busted a club recently for a variety of things drugs running a bawdy house and being an ms 13 hangout. and apparently there is a second club where they hang out. i suspect its the club where the "doorman is wearing an ar15 on a sling at the door. i like to think i can handle a fair amount of bad stuff. but with ms 13 you can't kill enough of em fast enough. i am greatly unhappy wife just got signed up for her class to get permit

jimmyraythomason
March 7, 2010, 10:14 PM
Okay maybe I'm dense but what the heck is "ms 13"?

cassandrasdaddy
March 7, 2010, 10:17 PM
latino gang do not play well with others and you're not dense i hope you continue not to have to deal with them my idea of the right way to deal with them is definitely outside the constitution.

Erik M
March 7, 2010, 10:37 PM
The officer was just doing his job, I wouldnt take offense to him asking for your lisence. He doesnt have to have a conversation with you so I woudlnt take offense.


but with ms 13 you can't kill enough of em fast enough.


I diddnt know MS 13 was anywhere east of the missippi? man did this get off topic in a hurry.

cassandrasdaddy
March 7, 2010, 10:42 PM
i didn't know they had left dc i only brought it up cause i suspect the op is in my area/town

ChaoSS
March 7, 2010, 11:44 PM
MS 13 is pretty much anywhere and everywhere. It and it's offshoots make up a majority of hispanic gangs.

jimmyraythomason
March 8, 2010, 07:16 AM
MS 13 is pretty much anywhere and everywhere. It and it's offshoots make up a majority of hispanic gangs. If we have any of them here,they are covert. I have heard of California's problems with Larasa(sp). but have never heard of MS13,thankfully.

halfded
March 8, 2010, 07:32 AM
I live in Fredericksburg, cassandrasdaddy.

I probably would be surprised to hear what they deal with. The newspaper must keep a lot under wraps:scrutiny:

As far as tall the little latino gangbangers; my gun trumps your stupid machete. A lot of the latinos around here try to look hard, maybe pretending they're ms13, but if you just return the hard stare they give you they soften up pretty quick.

ChaoSS
March 8, 2010, 02:21 PM
It's not always "La Raza". They are sort of an umbrella organization. They are incredibly brutal. They have a large number of subordinate gangs however, and gangs that may not "report" to them but sort of pay homage to them, it's a weird organizational structure. Note, however, that you will often see the 13 incorporated into the graffiti anywhere that you have any significant hispanic gang presence.

rswartsell
March 8, 2010, 08:52 PM
Alex45acp,

I think a better question is whether you have anything other than a specious body count to support the contention (which I find arrogant and self serving) that being a LEO is little more dangerous than being an accountant and less so than delivering pizzas. Creating the fallacious argument that if a low paying delivery job is more dangerous, then being a cop isn't dangerous (non sequitur). I would say support your contention that being a cop isn't all that dangerous, but I have no interest in how it appears to you and how you might rhetorically support such a questionable viewpoint.

Academicians that arrive at "logical" deductions using rhetorical gymnastics remain less informed than those with practical experience regardless of how much latin they can spout. So I'll take a pass on the invitation to cross verbal swords with you and continue to grant much more weight to the observations of those with said experience.

You could win any number of pseudo-intellectual debates without knowing a damned thing about police work. An example of ad iudicium.

AKElroy
March 8, 2010, 09:05 PM
I'm sure someone will chime in and ask the necessity of carrying at a funeral.

Not me. Funerals are high-emotion environments; people are unpredictable enough in normal stress environments.

cassandrasdaddy
March 8, 2010, 10:56 PM
i live out past geico
real ms 13 ? good luck with that hard look. i grew up in anacostia from 75 to 79 before i moved up the hill across the river and lived in places where i answered the door for the pizza guy with a gun in my hand behind my back and wasn't scared. ms 13 scares me. you have a real beef with them its way past time to go to war.

what type of cop did you have your encounter with?

NavyLCDR
March 9, 2010, 12:12 AM
I'm sure someone will chime in and ask the necessity of carrying at a funeral.

Ever hear of Westboro Baptist Church? That seems like a reason to carry at a funeral to me.

Alex45ACP
March 9, 2010, 01:39 AM
Alex45acp,

I think a better question is whether you have anything other than a specious body count to support the contention (which I find arrogant and self serving) that being a LEO is little more dangerous than being an accountant and less so than delivering pizzas. Creating the fallacious argument that if a low paying delivery job is more dangerous, then being a cop isn't dangerous (non sequitur). I would say support your contention that being a cop isn't all that dangerous, but I have no interest in how it appears to you and how you might rhetorically support such a questionable viewpoint.

Academicians that arrive at "logical" deductions using rhetorical gymnastics remain less informed than those with practical experience regardless of how much latin they can spout. So I'll take a pass on the invitation to cross verbal swords with you and continue to grant much more weight to the observations of those with said experience.

You could win any number of pseudo-intellectual debates without knowing a damned thing about police work. An example of ad iudicium.

Your post wasn't very coherent and you didn't really explain why you think I'm wrong. I didn't say that being a police officer isn't dangerous because delivering pizzas is more dangerous, I said it isn't dangerous because 57 out of ~700,000 is a very low number. I think looking at the number of people who die doing a job is a good way to judge how dangerous it is. Do you have some other method that you believe works better and disproves my conclusion?

How much police experience you have couldn't be less relevant to this debate. What matters is the statistics, which come from the FBI. Do you have any information that these statistics are inaccurate? I'm still not seeing any kind of logical counter argument coming from you. Would you like to try again?

halfded
March 9, 2010, 06:44 AM
Oops, it was Fredericksburg City PD. The Spotsylvania deputies are usually pretty friendly, but good luck out there in Stafford! Those guys are stiff!

cassandrasdaddy
March 9, 2010, 07:55 AM
the burg is getting different but i'm still surprised. unless you were in one of the stop and cop areas.
i like stafford they are tough though especially if you end up in court.
i get a ton of contact with stafford and fredericksburg, thankfully not from my misdeeds anymore but the kids i mentor. they both seem to still use common sense sometimes. like in that shooting at the waffle house. even though the shooter ran for a 1/2 hour whe n he returned and they examined the facts he got to go home no charges. and they aren't too quick to shoot. stafford is funny cause charlie jett still rolls on calls and all those boys pump iron together a couple of em are monsters. one of my knuckleheads tried to pick a fight with the biggest one. i saw the cop in court wanted to slap the boy . it was attempted suicide by cop.

rswartsell
March 9, 2010, 10:42 AM
Alex45acp,

In other threads you freely admit that a primary motivation for you to arm yourself is for protection from Agents of the State. This is at least mildly disturbing to me.

Rather than cherry picking your facts about "agents of the State" you could take the Bureau of Labor Statistics word for it here;

http://www.bls.gov
/oco/ocos160.htm (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm)

Work environment.

Police and detective work can be very dangerous and stressful. Police officers and detectives have one of the highest rates of on-the-job injury and illness. In addition to the obvious dangers of confrontations with criminals, police officers and detectives need to be constantly alert and ready to deal appropriately with a number of other threatening situations. Many law enforcement officers witness death and suffering resulting from accidents and criminal behavior. A career in law enforcement may take a toll on their private lives.


This seems perfectly obvious to me, but because I do not seem coherent to you, perhaps you are on some other wavelength. I can accept the word of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Perhaps because they are also "agents of the State" you might believe that the above is the result of some conspiracy to mislead the populous.

Regardless of this your analysis is simplistic in only looking at death rates as opposed to considering duty related fatality, injury and illness (including those resulting from prolonged stress). I still contend that you are presenting the conclusion and have used a specious support because of the above. Defend your conclusion if you believe anyone is interested.

P.S. If you decide to become a critic of LEO, demean their contributions to society by understating their personal sacrifice and generally dislike or disrespect them, then I contend that knowing something about their work is hardly irrelevant. Thinking that it is irrelevant is telling in and of itself.

Deanimator
March 9, 2010, 02:10 PM
P.S. If you decide to become a critic of LEO, demean their contributions to society by understating their personal sacrifice and generally dislike or disrespect them, then I contend that knowing something about their work is hardly irrelevant. Thinking that it is irrelevant is telling in and of itself.
Let's cut through all of the nonsense on both sides.

Police need to obey the law, the same as everyone else. Some of them don't agree. They need to not be LEOs. Some of them need not to be free to walk around in society.

Cops are welcome to their opinions about laws they don't like. They're also free not to share them with me. If they want to do so contrary to my wishes and at figurative or literal gun point, there needs to be a reckoning.

The bottom line: Obey the law, LEO or citizen. Do otherwise and expect problems, some of them big and nonrecoverable.

X-Rap
March 9, 2010, 02:43 PM
Agreed, also know that there are probably over a thousand different laws in the US regarding the authority to check a known armed individual for a permit.

Deanimator
March 9, 2010, 02:59 PM
Agreed, also know that there are probably over a thousand different laws in the US regarding the authority to check a known armed individual for a permit.
Regarding open carry in Ohio:

In Ohio there's no requirement for a license or permit to open carry. In fact, you don't need ANY sort of ID AT ALL. In Ohio open carry is not RAS of a crime. A cop can attempt to interact with you. Any such interaction is purely voluntary on your part. You're completely free to refuse that contact. If he detains you, with or without RAS, you have a legal duty to verbally identify yourself. If he detained you without RAS, you have every right to go after him, administratively, criminally and civilly.

Know the law.
Obey the law.
Don't let anybody violate your rights contrary to the law, citizen or LEO.

rswartsell
March 9, 2010, 03:03 PM
No problems here. I just don't get overly excited about one speaking to me. Follow your conscience on how much you want to speak with him.

X-Rap
March 9, 2010, 03:52 PM
The way I see it explained on the open carry forum, in Ohio the OP would have been in violation because you are not allowed to OC while in a vehicle.
This might be out dated law and if so my apologies but when you say know the law and obey the law it doesn't seem like you are applying it to this discussion.

Deanimator
March 9, 2010, 04:24 PM
The way I see it explained on the open carry forum, in Ohio the OP would have been in violation because you are not allowed to OC while in a vehicle.
This might be out dated law and if so my apologies but when you say know the law and obey the law it doesn't seem like you are applying it to this discussion.
Incorrect. In fact, you used to be REQUIRED to OC when in a vehicle.

In order to OC in a vehicle, you must have an Ohio CHL or recognized equivalent. If you have a CHL, when in a vehicle you may have your firearm


in a holster on your body (concealed or not)
in a closed (doesn't have to be locked or lockable) glove box or center console
in a closed container (purse, briefcase, guncase, etc.) with a closing mechanism (zipper, catches, etc.) of some sort
in a locked container not in plain sight

Alex45ACP
March 9, 2010, 04:32 PM
Alex45acp,

In other threads you freely admit that a primary motivation for you to arm yourself is for protection from Agents of the State. This is at least mildly disturbing to me.

Logical fallacy: ad hominem.

Rather than cherry picking your facts about "agents of the State" you could take the Bureau of Labor Statistics word for it here;

http://www.bls.gov
/oco/ocos160.htm (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm)

Work environment.

Police and detective work can be very dangerous and stressful. Police officers and detectives have one of the highest rates of on-the-job injury and illness. In addition to the obvious dangers of confrontations with criminals, police officers and detectives need to be constantly alert and ready to deal appropriately with a number of other threatening situations. Many law enforcement officers witness death and suffering resulting from accidents and criminal behavior. A career in law enforcement may take a toll on their private lives.

I don't necessarily disagree with this; it can be a very dangerous line of work. But it usually isn't. Like I said before, it is more dangerous than being an accountant, but when you look at the FBI statistics it's not nearly as dangerous as many people make it out to be. 57 out of ~700,000 is a very low number.

And again, they accept these small risks when they take the job. Nobody is forcing them into it.

This seems perfectly obvious to me, but because I do not seem coherent to you, perhaps you are on some other wavelength. I can accept the word of the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Do you also accept the word of the FBI, whose statistics show that the job is not very dangerous overall?

Perhaps because they are also "agents of the State" you might believe that the above is the result of some conspiracy to mislead the populous.

Logical fallacy: ad hominem.

Regardless of this your analysis is simplistic in only looking at death rates as opposed to considering duty related fatality, injury and illness (including those resulting from prolonged stress). I still contend that you are presenting the conclusion and have used a specious support because of the above. Defend your conclusion if you believe anyone is interested.

I am looking at duty related fatalities. My entire point is that they are low; therefore the job isn't very dangerous. I am only looking at the numbers of LEOs killed on the job in violent confrontations because those are the only ones relevant to this discussion. Stress-related illnesses are irrelevant. Injury rates may be relevant, but only life-threatening injuries sustained on the job in violent confrontations with criminals.

P.S. If you decide to become a critic of LEO, demean their contributions to society by understating their personal sacrifice and generally dislike or disrespect them, then I contend that knowing something about their work is hardly irrelevant. Thinking that it is irrelevant is telling in and of itself.

Logical fallacy: red herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html). This discussion is not about disrespecting the police, it's about the dangers of police work and how people grealy overstate them to justify police militarization and other excesses.

Deanimator
March 9, 2010, 04:44 PM
No problems here. I just don't get overly excited about one speaking to me. Follow your conscience on how much you want to speak with him.
I don't want any interaction with them of any kind.

That's why (along with being an instructor) I work hard (harder than many of them) to know and abide by the law.

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