When a non reloader becomes a freeloader


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lykoris
March 6, 2010, 04:17 PM
Just wondering if any of you have experienced taking the time to show somebody who initially presents an 'interest' in learning how to reload only to realise they're only interested in using your equipment and obtaining better cartridges at a fraction of factory cost ammo?

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buck460XVR
March 6, 2010, 04:21 PM
yea...............my two sons, LOL.:rolleyes:

cottonmouth
March 6, 2010, 04:23 PM
Maybe it time to give the old "well I think you are on the right track now, you need to go ahead and and get your own set up" speach?

J.B.

snuffy
March 6, 2010, 04:26 PM
When a non reloader becomes a freeloader
Just wondering if any of you have experienced taking the time to show somebody who initially presents an 'interest' in learning how to reload only to realise their only interested in using your equipment and obtaining better cartridges at a fraction of factory cost ammo?

Anybody is welcome to come use my equipment anytime. As long as they don't use up my components. I would certainly expect them to eventually buy their own stuff, but circumstances like they don't have space available would mean they could use my stuff.

Anything to further the sport!:D

azyogi
March 6, 2010, 04:33 PM
Shooting's fun for my kids till they have to buy the ammo. It's the same thing with quads, everybody wants to ride nobody wantd to work on them or buy gas.

lykoris
March 6, 2010, 04:46 PM
Fear not, I don't tolerate people wasting what little free time I have and have no reservations about frank communication. I don't beat about the bush or avoid pink elephants.

My enthusiasm for reloading put my sceptic radar/capacity to judge character on the back burner.

I won't talk about reloading anymore apart with fellow reloaders or attempt to convert non-reloaders :p

Walkalong
March 6, 2010, 05:10 PM
Yes, and on top of that he was being careless with my LNL, so I cut him off. Still buddies at the range, and I'll help him out, but he doesn't load on my stuff ever again. Just be nice, and it will work out.....or not, but it won't be your fault if your nice. :)

snuffy
March 6, 2010, 05:16 PM
Well forgive my generous nature! I'd give my ammo away if I weren't opening myself up for a law suit,(if something went wrong), just to get a person interested in the shooting sports/reloading.

I have an open invitation to a rabid anti-gun-liberal at work. He hates guns and people that shoot. I challenged him to come shooting with me, just so he actually had some basis for his rants. He refuses, his mind is closed.

Another fellow worker and young married/W/children, had just bought a new Savage .223. He tried various factory loads, was very disappointed in groups. I took a gamble, gave him some handloads I made for my AR. He raved about how much better they shot. I said you'll have to handload to get that kind of accuracy. He's now a new handloader, again with my help.

lykoris
March 6, 2010, 05:39 PM
snuffy,

I was very accommodating on numerous occasions but at a certain point when the line has been clearly drawn there is an abuse of goodwill when the other party repeatedly persists. e.g. having dropped by one evening during the week (again on very short notice) to run 38 on the 650 and being told three times over the course of that two hour visit 'time to get your equipment' in plain English...I get a call today while he's in the gunstore on what bullets he should get so he can come back.

I've by in large found that the shooting community like to share and I have a firm belief in exposing people to shooting/reloading to combat the negative social programming that the MSM portrays - here in Europe it's absurd the extent of the disinformation.

Just wondered if anybody had experienced something similar.

And this definitely isn't a money thing as he earns a very good living and could easily drop the funds for top reloading gear.

I trully fail to understand the logic.

Walkalong
March 6, 2010, 06:04 PM
Well forgive my generous nature! I applaud you. I can not stand to watch someone abuse machinery, so I cut him off.

I let folks shoot my ammo all the time. All I ask is they be safe, and be careful with the guns. If they can't do both, they get a gentle warning. If they still can't, to bad.

snuffy
March 6, 2010, 06:06 PM
I was very accommodating on numerous occasions but at a certain point when the line has been clearly drawn there is an abuse of goodwill when the other party repeatedly persists. e.g. having dropped by one evening during the week (again on very short notice) to run 38 on the 650 and being told three times over the course of that two hour visit 'time to get your equipment' in plain English...I get a call today while he's in the gunstore on what bullets he should get so he can come back.

Wellll---in that case I'd say don't let the door hit ya where God split ya,,, on the way out!:mad: My generosity does have limits, I'm certainly no door mat! :cuss: There's always those that will take advantage of us that give freely.

So you're over that big pond I never get to see, except in pictures!;)

lgbloader
March 6, 2010, 06:27 PM
I guess it depends on how strong of friendship you have with the chap.
I have a friend that used to pull that nonsense with me but I got smart. I bought him a kit. LCT kit from Kempfs. Since then, he has put together quite a nice man cave behind his garage. I really like the place. 10' x 12' or so. Nice stereo, couch, mini fridge, a couple of benches (1 for brass work & gun cleaning, 1 for ammo assembly) Nice lighting. I go over there and work with him sometimes and drink his beer.
But we have been friends since elementary school. I am glad we can now both go to eachother's house and talk story and work some brass.

LGB

Arkansas Paul
March 6, 2010, 06:47 PM
lgbloader beat me to it. Just how good friends are you with this guy? That would be a difference maker with me.

1858
March 6, 2010, 07:00 PM
And this definitely isn't a money thing as he earns a very good living and could easily drop the funds for top reloading gear.

And there you have it. This guy is a USER plain and simple. You've been more than generous ... time to move on!!

If he was making some effort by giving you bullets, powder, primers or cases then maybe you could cut him some slack ... as it is, he's a selfish wanker and is taking advantage of you .... MOVE ON!! I bet he's from Scotland!! :D

:)

lykoris
March 6, 2010, 07:06 PM
It wasn't my intention to get into specifics nor have a Dr. Phil moment with you guys :D

It's more a case of, how do you separate the wheat from the chaff when somebody shows an interest in reloading? I think it's foolish of me to say I'll never talk about the benefits of reloading to non-reloaders.

I realise there will never be any generic rule and each case differs but perhaps for future reference I'd be wiser in just providing directions rather than opening the door & saying 'hop in' and then driving them to their destination.

Ultimately, if somebody is 'genuinely' interested they should have the motivation to do some research themselves and look into the details themselves.

EddieNFL
March 6, 2010, 07:09 PM
I am glad we can now both go to eachother's house and talk story and work some brass.

You meant lie and brag while working brass, didn't you? ;)

NuJudge
March 6, 2010, 09:12 PM
Think "Liability." If someone blows themselves up with ammo loaded on your machinery, I can think of several legal theories under which you may get to pay his Doctor bills.

CDD

mongoose33
March 6, 2010, 09:18 PM
I don't think you can somehow "pre-screen" people to find out if they're going to try to continue to use your stuff.

Just tell 'em you'll be happy to get them started, maybe show them on your machine a couple times, and then advise them on equipment purchases of their own.

And FWIW: Just because one guy is trying to take advantage of you doesn't mean everybody will.

It can be easy for us to put up defenses so that nobody can ever do that again, but consider that it's possible he's just a jerk, and the next and next and next guys won't be.

MissouriBullet
March 6, 2010, 09:28 PM
Just wondering if any of you have experienced taking the time to show somebody who initially presents an 'interest' in learning how to reload only to realise they're only interested in using your equipment and obtaining better cartridges at a fraction of factory cost ammo?
Now it's time to present the standard equipment rental per hour fee, now that he's trained up and saving big bucks on his ammo. You're out the wear-and-tear otherwise.

twofifty
March 6, 2010, 09:31 PM
I learned how-to from one of the guys in our R&G club. Two visits in this guy's man cave gave me a very very solid start, including the soot technique of figuring out seating depth. This was done using my own components. This fellow was generous with his components as well as his time: we loaded a few of his own bullets with some of his powder. Several other club members were also helpful answering questions and demystifying this that and the other.

After two sessions, I knew what to look for in tools and purchased my own gear. It would have been rude not to take the plunge at this point - after all people have their own lives.

Thanks Don. I know that when the opportunity arises, I too will help others. But I will not be taken advantage of.

Oyeboten
March 6, 2010, 09:32 PM
I have a wood and Metal Working Shop.


I have always been happy to show interested people some bacis 'how-to', within reason...and, I will absolutely never let anyone use or do anything on any of my Equipment, nor let them use any Power Tool or Hand Tool of any kind "Period".


What happens if you do?


A ) They instantly make some extrordinarily stupid mistake, ( or soon will, even AS you hover close thinking you could prevent any such thing, ) and, damage the Equipment or Tooling, or, hurt themself as well...then they get mad, and want to make it the fault of the MAchine or power Tool or whatever.

B) Even one 'step' on the slippery slope, of kindness or genousity in letting other people use one's Machines or other Tools or Tooling, is enough to find you have made an enemy for Life, as they begin asking, nay, demanding, for more and more of your time, and use of your Machines and other, and if allowed to borrow anything, they will reliably return the item damaged and abused while saying nothing, and, if you politely refuse to let it continue, they hate you.


No thanks...been there, done that, every time thought the person was of good, mature character...every time, I was wrong...so, never again.


No one touches anything in here...even if, maybe, I might let someone watch a procedure.

Jaybird78
March 7, 2010, 01:35 AM
My dad has a next door neighbor like this. He ALWAYS is wanting to borrow something.

Examples

Last year he asked my dad if he had a .22 to lend for ground squirrel control.

2-3 years ago he wanted to borrow my dads brand new pressure washer so he could wash his siding.

Many years ago he wanted to borrow a utility trailer to move his kid to next state over. My dad said sure, go ahead and use the trailer. Then the neighbor asked to use his (my dad's) truck to pull it. ***?

Stop it now before it gets worse.

Scrapperz
March 7, 2010, 10:01 AM
I do not lend things LOL.....especially tools. :). Not lending things you broke your Butt to get yourself is nothing to be ashamed of. It just teaches the "want to be lendee" he/she needs to work to for want they want.

The reason I do not lend things anymore is cause things of mine started walking and running away from home and I was good owner LOL.

When there is some reciprocity from someone close to you it may not be so bad.

qajaq59
March 7, 2010, 10:26 AM
I watched the guy that taught me reloading a few times on his gear. Then he helped me pick out what I needed to load and he'd come over to my place for a while to tutor me as I got started. I think that is more fair. He gave the time when he could and I listened to what he had to say. That was many moons ago and we're still friends.

longdayjake
March 7, 2010, 11:12 AM
I have buddies that don't want to use my equipment, but are more than happy to shoot my reloads. They stopped buying their own ammo because they somehow think that because it costs me half as much as factory stuff then I should share the wealth. I find myself going to the range alone these days for that reason. However, every now and then I get a chance to take someone that has not yet been introduced to shooting and I am more than happy to let them shoot as much as they want. I had some guys come over from Australia that had a blast with my Garand loaded with tracers.

qajaq59
March 7, 2010, 11:59 AM
I have buddies that don't want to use my equipment, but are more than happy to shoot my reloads. They stopped buying their own ammo because they somehow think that because it costs me half as much as factory stuff then I should share the wealth. Those aren't exactly what I'd call "Buddies". And I think it might be worthwhile to add the word NO to your vocabulary.

lgbloader
March 7, 2010, 02:17 PM
You meant lie and brag while working brass, didn't you?

Do you really think I meant anything else?? :neener:

LGB

berettashotgun
March 7, 2010, 03:42 PM
Situation has happened to me before, guy I reloaded some of his components wanted some more ammo, asking me if I was using HIS powder on my loads. HUH?
At the time I wasn't even using H4350 on any of my stuff - I just told him that I'd be glad to reload for him with his components and dies, shell holder,primer and primer tool, tumbler media, and tumbler.....but I wasn't going to charge him for electricity or time. He would have to go buy and deliver the stuff.
It worked and I am not sure if he was shamed or just thought out the deal he had been getting.
I am always more than happy to help others, but when it comes to money - I'll work weekends for extra, why don't you?
My Dad once told his brother in law ( my step uncle ) to come over and mow our yard while doing some plumbing work at his house - and please use his own mower - point was very well made. Something about free time and equipment costs.

pcg8r
March 7, 2010, 04:20 PM
How about this;
Sure buddy come on by. I'll provide the press etc, you bring all the components you need & an extra pound of powder or a thousand primers for me.

grubbylabs
March 7, 2010, 05:01 PM
All right I will get my own stuff already. :uhoh: didn't know you were so sensitive.

AzBuckfever
March 7, 2010, 06:30 PM
I know what you mean by a freeloader....but I don't think the term freeloader would exist if the people they're freeloading off of, didn't allow it to happen :)

jpwilly
March 7, 2010, 06:59 PM
I have an open invitation to a rabid anti-gun-liberal at work. He hates guns and people that shoot. I challenged him to come shooting with me, just so he actually had some basis for his rants. He refuses, his mind is closed.

Unfortunately it often takes something really bad happening to an anti-gun-liberal for them to see the light.

I've shown a few non reloaders my set up and they watched intently as I worked away. Often very curious as to all the little steps involved and why. The tools, books, bullets powder just boggled their imaginations. Then I had to hustle my kids back off to bed before they got into something they shouldn't.. :)

buck460XVR
March 7, 2010, 07:55 PM
Think "Liability." If someone blows themselves up with ammo loaded on your machinery, I can think of several legal theories under which you may get to pay his Doctor bills.

CDD

I'd like to see examples of where and how that has happened. That's like saying if you lent your circular saw to your neighbor to build a deck and the deck collapsed, you would be liable for damage......I don't think so. With your reasoning, the manufacturers of the same equipment would be liable everytime some idiot blew up a gun with a squib or overload.....must be a good reason I've yet to see that happen.

Unless it could be proven there was a problem with your equipment that you were well aware of, intentionally did not tell the person and the problem itself led to the production of dangerous ammo, there is no neglect. Only other reason would be if you knew for sure that the idiot did not know what he was doing, that he was gonna blow up his gun and you let him go ahead anyway just for sh%ts and giggles.

lgbloader
March 7, 2010, 09:38 PM
Think "Liability." If someone blows themselves up with ammo loaded on your machinery, I can think of several legal theories under which you may get to pay his Doctor bills.

CDD

i'll bite, show me the legal theories in writing.

LGB

trickyasafox
March 7, 2010, 10:54 PM
I have a freeloader in a different sense-

my dad was always a gun owner, but never a frequent shooter. As I got more into shooting, and eventually reloading- he suddenly realized 'Hank the magic Ammo fairy'-(what I lovingly call my reloading presses) kept the ammo shelves pretty full. All of a sudden, he's more than happy to go to the range and shoot down the supply.

I figure its okay though- I'm 25 and still live at home 3 months a year when home from college and have never paid rent, so i'm happy to put up something the ol' man enjoys.

also my reloading and shooting got my mom motivated to get her ccw and start shooting regularly- so now I'm providing the ammo for the both the rents and I couldn't be happier.

not all freeloading is bad :)

homeyclaus
March 8, 2010, 08:00 PM
A range buddy shows up with his own components, dies for calibers I don't have, a shell plate, and a case of beer (although I need to help carry that in). The only thing he borrows is some case lube (not counting scales and press).

Can't complain at all. Should I be?

Bass Ackwardz
March 8, 2010, 08:52 PM
A range buddy shows up with his own components, dies for calibers I don't have, a shell plate, and a case of beer (although I need to help carry that in). The only thing he borrows is some case lube (not counting scales and press).

Can't complain at all. Should I be?
LOL...depends on how much beer you both are drinking as you reload...


Bass

ADKWOODSMAN
March 8, 2010, 10:30 PM
Luckily I've taught people to reload and they soon buy their own equipment.

rfwobbly
March 8, 2010, 10:54 PM
lykoris -
Could I please "borrow" 1000 primers? And throw in some bullets too, please.

:D

calaverasslim
March 8, 2010, 11:30 PM
my neighbor. Really likes my reloads. Asked me to reload some more. I used cast and he complained. Sed he didn't want cast, wanted me to buy and use jacketed. for him and his sons. when I said buy the bullets, he got angry and started running his mouth.

That ended our friendship and the next year he was back asking for more bullets

HOWARD J
March 8, 2010, 11:55 PM
I will let me kids & grandkids have my reloads ( w/in reason )
No to anyone else--too many shister lawyers in this country,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

jeepmor
March 9, 2010, 12:17 AM
When you teach somoene how to fish and they still want you to give them one, let em figure it out for themselves. I know it's a delicate line with good friends, but if it needs to happen, it needs to happen. Especially if they aren't restocking supplies or committing labor.

I've had instances regarding building and fixing rigs that lent itself to good comparison, suppose we all h ave. I don't think I lost friendship over it, but it definitely impacted it negatively in their eyes when my tool and expertise gravy train got cut off.

BTW - take a deep breath Oyeboten, we understand. Some friends think it's theirs and keep it until you ask for it back. Then they waffle and waffle before they get it back. And they never used it in the first place! Okay, time for my deep breath.

jeepmor

Big Wes
March 11, 2010, 11:56 AM
Had a preacher / user up the street from me who asked about reloading. I showed him the basics on my Dillon, his components. He'd drop off brass and ask if I would clean it up for him. I did this 2 times then I found out/realized he had no intentions on buying a press. He had another guy from church who would load for him and all he did was shoot the stuff. Then it dawned on me he asked me to clean his brass and he'd go to the other guy to load the stuff up, because the guy didn't want to take the time on waiting for the brass to be cleaned, and then start loading after. Well, I held school on him, He brought over some brass for me to clean and I kept it all and handed him a can of semi clean brass that was all tarnished from sitting around in my shed a couple days later.
Guess what that ended that.

Use me once - his fault, Use me twice - my fault! That ain't likely going to happen, sometimes it just doesn't pay to be a nice guy.

Quoheleth
March 11, 2010, 12:11 PM
I have a freeloader in a different sense-

my dad was always a gun owner, but never a frequent shooter. As I got more into shooting, and eventually reloading- he suddenly realized 'Hank the magic Ammo fairy'-(what I lovingly call my reloading presses) kept the ammo shelves pretty full. All of a sudden, he's more than happy to go to the range and shoot down the supply.

I figure its okay though- I'm 25 and still live at home 3 months a year when home from college and have never paid rent, so i'm happy to put up something the ol' man enjoys.

also my reloading and shooting got my mom motivated to get her ccw and start shooting regularly- so now I'm providing the ammo for the both the rents and I couldn't be happier.

not all freeloading is bad

By definition, this is not freeloading. This is exchange of services for goods - rent for ammo. Last time I checked, that's called capitolism. I would use the phrase, "fair trade," but that has another connotation.
Q

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