Primer/Pressure? 45 ACP


PDA






steve4102
March 7, 2010, 11:34 AM
I loaded up some 45 ACP 200gr LSWC with 4.8gr WST seated to 1.250. I loaded 25 Missouri Bullets and 50 Penn Bullets. Wanted to see which one was more accurate before I ordered up several K.

Here is what my brass/primers look like with this load.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/NewImage-2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/45brass.jpg

The cartridge on the left has no pin strike mark left, it has been filled in. That mark you see at about 7 O'clock is raised and sharp.

The center cartridge has a little pin strike left, but not much. It also has the raised sharp piece at the 9 O'clock position. The primer on the right looks normal to me.

If you enjoyed reading about "Primer/Pressure? 45 ACP" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Marlin 45 carbine
March 7, 2010, 01:28 PM
the cases on the right show some cratering and begin to flatten must be warm load.
the left seems 'smeared' by something is this in a 1911 or variant or what?
I'm not familiar at all with WST I use only 3 powders for .45acp.
BEye and RDot for cast and Power Pistol for jacketed.
for my Colt original I use data as close to factory as possible.

rcmodel
March 7, 2010, 01:34 PM
I don't think it is excess pressure at all.

It appears from the poor cell-phone photo's that soft primers are extruding back into the firing pin hole and getting sheared off when the barrel unlocks.

I'd check for a gun problem with a loose firing pin hole / too small dia firing pin.
Or just soft primers.

Might try changing primer brands and see what happens.

rc

243winxb
March 7, 2010, 01:56 PM
To much pressure. The 1 on right is ok. The WST @ Hodgdons site makes more pressure for some reason with the 200 gr Lead. Change components and you get to much pressure :confused: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1 Does the sides of the brass look different than normal?

rcmodel
March 7, 2010, 02:06 PM
200gr LSWC with 4.8gr WST seated to 1.250
I'm not at all sure how that load could possibly generate too much pressure.

Hodgdon says:
4.4 WST is a starting load giving 15,400 CUP.
5.1 is MAX giving 19,900 CUP.
And thats seated shorter, to 1.155".

The OP's load should be running around 15-16 CUP at that seating length.
.45 ACP is supposed to run 21,000 PSI MAX.

I think it is soft primers if it doesn't do it with factory loads.
Or a gun problem if it does.

rc

243winxb
March 7, 2010, 02:16 PM
Pressure for 5.1 is 19900 on the site with what ever components? The LP primer should hold up better as it might be used in a 44 mag.. I would have to see more of the brass and have a look at the gun also. Check the bullet diameters of the lead bullets also, different. Swaged & cast?? Could it be a Glock? http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Glock.jpg

Steve C
March 7, 2010, 03:39 PM
I loaded up some 45 ACP 200gr LSWC with 4.8gr WST seated to 1.250.

Light loads and low pressure often mimics a high pressure loads primer condition.

A 4.8 gr load is just at the edge of enough pressure to expand the case tight in the chamber as indicated by the "normal' looking primers on the right. Its likely your measure throws some lighter charges and they don't have enough pressure to hold the case so its pushes back against the breach and flows around the firing pin. The cratering is from the flow into the chamferd area of the firing pin hole. The sharp edge shown is what's called a firing pin wipe where the pin isn't retracted when the case ejects.

Do a quality control check of your powder measure and see how consistent the charges are.

You would have to get the pressures over 45. Win mag handgun level to see pressure signs in the .45acp. I seriously doubt that even 6 grains of WST would do that.

243winxb
March 7, 2010, 04:15 PM
RC is right again. Primer Wipe http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=440870See post #4 "Primer wipe" is a teardrop-shaped firing pin impression, accompanied by a drag mark (scratch or gouge) following the "point" of the teardrop and leading away from the primer, sometimes into the brass. This is because the firing pin does not fully retract after the round has fired and the slide is traveling back during ejection, causing the case to drag across the firing pin as it is thrown clear. It is not in any way harmful, except sometimes to the case if the primer pocket edge is gouged. Kahr will tell you it is a normal condition for their pistols, even saying so in the owner's manual.

pcg8r
March 7, 2010, 04:24 PM
What kind of crimp?
How much crimp?

rcmodel
March 7, 2010, 04:50 PM
Well, it's a 45 ACP, so it is a taper crimp, so it really doesn't matter.

Taper crimp has almost nothing to do with pressure changes, even when over-done, when loading fast burning pistol powder like WST.

rc

steve4102
March 8, 2010, 04:29 AM
45 ACP Dan Wesson 1911 PM7

Charges dumped with a Harrell's Precision Schuetzen/Pistol Measure. http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=49&rn=378&action=show_detail
Checked measure today, dumped 25 rounds and weighed each on a 505 and Lyman 1200, right on the money each time.

Lead SWC seated to 1.225 crimped to .471, just enough to remove the flare.

243winxb
March 8, 2010, 08:35 AM
On Hodgdons website data, comparing 200 gr lead and jacketed bullets, the lead makes more pressure.:confused: Some how that just does not seem right. Printed Win. 1996 data shows 19,900 PSI not CUP as on Hodgdons website. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1 For primers to look like yours, high pressure + primer wipe.:confused: Photo of primer wipe. Click for larger. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_PrimerWipe.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/PrimerWipe.jpg)

rcmodel
March 8, 2010, 12:23 PM
200gr LSWC with 4.8gr WST seated to 1.250.On further reflection on this, it seems to me that 1.250" OAL is Way Too Long for a 200 grain SWC.

It could be that you are forcing the wadcutter shoulder into the rifling and that is raising pressure.

You need to pull the barrel out of your gun and "chamber check" some of your loads.
See if they will actually drop all the way in the chamber freely without forcing them in.

At any rate, the bullets front driving band/shoulder should be seated almost flush with the case mouth to be the proper OAL with any SWC bullet.

I think yours must surely be sticking way out of the case and contacting the rifling when seated 1.250" OAL..

rc

steve4102
March 8, 2010, 07:15 PM
On further reflection on this, it seems to me that 1.250" OAL is Way Too Long for a 200 grain SWC.

It could be that you are forcing the wadcutter shoulder into the rifling and that is raising pressure.

You need to pull the barrel out of your gun and "chamber check" some of your loads.
See if they will actually drop all the way in the chamber freely without forcing them in.

At any rate, the bullets front driving band/shoulder should be seated almost flush with the case mouth to be the proper OAL with any SWC bullet.

I think yours must surely be sticking way out of the case and contacting the rifling when seated 1.250" OAL..

Thanks RC. Took the barrel out today and used it for a case gauge, you were right on, my OAL was way to long. Had to seat down to 1.235 just to get flush. Haven't loaded or shot any at this new and improved OAL, but my guess is that it will be just fine.

Thanks again.

steve4102
March 9, 2010, 09:33 PM
Thanks RC. Took the barrel out today and used it for a case gauge, you were right on, my OAL was way to long. Had to seat down to 1.235 just to get flush. Haven't loaded or shot any at this new and improved OAL, but my guess is that it will be just fine.


Well, that didn't work. I loaded a few 200gr LSWC with WST at 4.5 and 4.7 seated to 1.225 and 1.230. Hodgdon data lists 4.4 Start and 5.1 Max seated at 1.225.

Same results as before. Brass came out looking like the round in the middle.

steve4102
March 21, 2010, 09:16 AM
Well, I found and fixed the problem. My gunsmith was surprised when he heard I had to seat the 200gr LSWC down to 1.225 to get to "flush headspace". Said that 1.250 should not be to long.

He wanted to see the barrel, so I sent it off to him for inspection. Sure enough the chamber was out of spec. He reamed the barrel chamber and all is well. Took it out yesterday and fired off 7 quick rounds of 200gr LSWC seated to 1.250 with 4.8gr of WST, primers and brass are perfect.

Thanks
Steve

Walkalong
March 21, 2010, 09:23 AM
Excellent. Glad you found the problem.

243winxb
March 21, 2010, 10:03 AM
Sure enough the chamber was out of spec. He reamed the barrel chamber and all is well.(COL) Cartridge overall length has nothing to do with finding the correct seating depth with a lead semi wad cutter bullet. :banghead: It is the head to bullet shoulder measurement that matters. :rolleyes: I feel the powder is giving you pressure spikes. Adding more free bore to the barrel chamber will bleed off this pressure solving your powder problem.:uhoh: I would love to know your maximum head to shoulder measurments before and after reaming?? http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_45acp947inch_001.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/45acp947inch_001.jpg)

1911Tuner
March 21, 2010, 10:08 AM
The smeared/sheared primers suggest an excessive headspace condition...and excessive in the bad direction. Because some are smeared/sheared and others appear to be okay...I'd also suspect the possibility of firing out of battery. Any case bulges?

Wilburt
March 21, 2010, 10:44 AM
I'm not at all sure how that load could possibly generate too much pressure.

Hodgdon says:
4.4 WST is a starting load giving 15,400 CUP.
5.1 is MAX giving 19,900 CUP.
And thats seated shorter, to 1.155".

The OP's load should be running around 15-16 CUP at that seating length.
.45 ACP is supposed to run 21,000 PSI MAX.

I think it is soft primers if it doesn't do it with factory loads.
Or a gun problem if it does.

rc

Yep, I've been shooting 5.0 grs WST @ 1.250 w/MO LSWC for a while. I haven't had any problems in over 1k rounds. Seems i'm late to the party though.

steve4102
March 21, 2010, 10:59 AM
I would love to know your maximum head to shoulder measurments before and after reaming??

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/45seatingpossibilitiesx.jpg

Seating the 200gr LSWC to "flush headspace" second from the right.
Before reaming. 1.235 avg.
After Reaming. 1.251,1.252,1.251,1.252 , 4 bullets tested.

Any case bulges?

No

243winxb
March 21, 2010, 11:38 AM
I loaded up some 45 ACP 200gr LSWC with 4.8gr WST seated to 1.250. I loaded 25 Missouri Bullets and 50 Penn Bullets. If the chamber was to short, how did the action close in the first place @ 1.250" ?? Your bullets look like my long nose Lyman 200gr. lswc BB that i use in tight chamber GC with a COL of 1.260" or .947" head to shoulder. Very strange . Glad you have it working well now. Edit, If the chamber was short, then the COL would not matter as the cartridge head spaces on the case mouth. Ok, i am awake now lol.

steve4102
March 21, 2010, 11:45 AM
Bullets are Missouri bullets. I also have a K of Penn 200gr LSWC, they measure the same +/- a few thou.

918v
March 21, 2010, 01:20 PM
You can't read primers for pressure in the 45 ACP unless they are FC-150's. The others are just too hard and don't flatten at 20KPSI.

If you enjoyed reading about "Primer/Pressure? 45 ACP" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!