I wish every gun owner would take a CCW class!


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Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 11:40 AM
Just wanted to share, I took a CCW class recently (Arizona) and it was quite an experience. I was raised around guns and have owned guns and shot occasionally for over 10 years, but never got around to taking the CCW class.

I have to credit my nephew for finally urging me to do it. He had a couple scary life-threatening encounters and decided to take the class, and asked me to take it with him for moral support or something. This was the kick in the rear I needed to finally do it!

I pretty much knew the basics already like the 5 rules, maintenance, not to conceal my weapon, where you can't carry, etc. but there were a lot of specifics about the law that we learned in the class, as well as some really good safety training. Also a lot of good advice about how to think and act when armed and how to be mentally prepared for a life or death situation.

There was a range qualification test where we had to hit at least 7 out of 10 inside the larger box of a TQ15 silhouette target from 30 feet. This wasn't hard for me or my nephew because we had practiced at the range, but some people needed 2 or 3 retries before they could pass. They also let the people who were having trouble do 5 rounds from 15 feet and 5 from 30 feet, which is the minimum for Arizona to qualify. Most of us did all 10 from 30 feet though without issues.

The thing that was really scary though was that a lot of people in the class did not get 100% on the written test, even after 8 hours of being taught what the laws are. I don't know if they didn't listen or what. The test was VERY easy. In fact, I am pretty sure I could have scored 100% on the test without even taking the class, because most of the questions were common sense.

A couple examples I remember that people got wrong (all were multiple choice):
"Can you pick a fight with someone and then if they start getting the upper hand on you, shoot them?" A few people answered Yes! :uhoh:
"Now that you have a CCW permit, you have..." A few people (including the guy next to me) picked "The same authority and responsibility as a police officer!" Whoah... :what:

Our class had about 50 people in it, and this particular organization routinely fills up their classes. It surprised me a little how many people are carrying now days, people from all walks of life. About 10% of the class was female, by the way. Another funny thing was that a LOT of people who took the class had never shot a gun before. We know people are buying guns and ammo like crazy these days. It was cool to see people getting educated and arming themselves but at the same time, it makes me worry about the people who are just buying guns and not taking the extra step of educating themselves.

Anyway, it was a great experience, and I wish everyone would do it even if they don't want to carry concealed!

A couple other fun things from the class:
Out of the 50 or so in the class, a bunch of them had never shot a gun before, and had bought their first gun just for this class. Several had purchased guns by Bryco, Jennings, Raven, etc. The instructor called out these brands and asked who had one of them, and then scolded the people who raised their hands, and basically told them to buy a better gun and not to trust their lives to those brands! He also said he hoped the bad guys were using those brands because it would put them at a disadvantage...

Another fun thing was how many revolver shooters we had in this class. I would say, from what I remember, around 1/4 of the class was shooting revolvers. The instructor commented that this was more than he usually saw, especially single-action revolvers, we had a handful of those in the class.

Overall, a fun experience

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MachIVshooter
March 8, 2010, 12:45 PM
Out of the 50 or so in the class

I hope there were multiple instructors. That's too big a class for one guy to manage safely, IMO.

Carl
March 8, 2010, 12:53 PM
I enjoyed my CCW class. The assistant instructor began to tell us about the different places to conceal and situations where you would be justified in protecting yourself. By the end of the lecture he had pulled out 18 guns from his vest/pocket/coat/pants/belt. It was nice to have some humor in the class and not make people nervous about getting yelled at or scowled for asking or doing something that a new person to guns might do.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 01:17 PM
I hope there were multiple instructors. That's too big a class for one guy to manage safely, IMO.

There was just one instructor, but normally he had a partner. His partner was out of town or something. He did have 2 assistants helping with fingerprinting, paperwork, and setup/takedown at the range.

He was very strict which I think was probably necessary with a class so large. He couldn't keep an eye on everyone at once so he instructed the class to watch the group that was shooting and call out any safety violations they saw. We also didn't all shoot at once, of course, we were divided into 5 groups of 10 so only 10 people would shoot at a time. Unfortunately the people watching couldn't really see the shooters well enough from where we were standing (directly behind them). Probably needed more instructors, ideally, like you said.

One thing we learned that was completely new to me was taking your finger off the trigger after every single shot. Is this a standard safety rule in the shooting community? It seemed nobody in the class had learned this before and many people forgot this rule between shots and got yelled at. For example, if we were supposed to shoot 5 shots in a row, we couldn't just shoot 5 one right after the other, we had to shoot once, take finger off trigger long enough that the instructor could see we had our finger off, then put it back in there and shoot another round... If you even left your finger inside the trigger guard for a second after firing a shot, and the instructor saw you, you got a "final warning". It felt awkward and I don't remember seeing people shoot this way at the range either. Is this normal or what? He was REALLY strict about it and almost disqualified a couple people who shot more than 1 round without removing their finger.

Nobody ever taught me this rule before. I knew one of the 5 rules was don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot... but if I'm aiming at the target, and planning on shooting 5 shots, I AM ready to shoot again after the first shot.

Please let me know if this is a normal safety rule or just this one guy's rule...

Owen Sparks
March 8, 2010, 01:18 PM
I wish everyone would also, I even helped teach the defensive shotgun portion of a civilian home defense course a while back, however; I am firmly against MANDITORY state approved classes.

Government involvement in the licensing of a right is the tip of a very dangerous wedge. Any time the state assumes the power to allow something; it also gains the power to prohibit it.

You would not want to be subjected to a background check, mandatory waiting period or state mandated Bible classes to make sure that you were not some kind of religious fanatic before being issued a license to attend church would you?

Can you see how dangerous this is?

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 01:25 PM
Yeah, what about a different approach, a carrot rather than a stick?

I would never want classes to be mandatory, but what if the government helped out in some way, like maybe for a first-time gun buyer, some or all of the tax on the gun purchase could go towards a training course? Or maybe some kind of incentive for taking a class, like if you take the class, you get a tax break on future gun purchases?

Just a thought... might be nice to encourage training but not require it. I'm glad I took the class, the CCW permit and peace of mind are incentive enough for me.

Mainsail
March 8, 2010, 01:37 PM
I wish everyone would also, I even helped teach the defensive shotgun portion of a civilian home defense course a while back, however; I am firmly against MANDITORY state approved classes.

I agree with Owen on this one, although I would make only a very minor semantic change to the first sentence to read: I wish everyone who needs it would also...

I still believe everyone is their own best keeper. Yes, I'm an idealist.

3:00hold
March 8, 2010, 01:38 PM
I agree with those who said that it should not be required, but it should be strongly encouraged. In my opinion, when you cary, you are asking society to place a good deal of trust in you, and holding up your end includes being properly trained and practicing regularly.


Hellbore, Sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing.
One thing we learned that was completely new to me was taking your finger off the trigger after every single shot. Is this a standard safety rule in the shooting community? It seemed nobody in the class had learned this before and many people forgot this rule between shots and got yelled at. For example, if we were supposed to shoot 5 shots in a row, we couldn't just shoot 5 one right after the other, we had to shoot once, take finger off trigger long enough that the instructor could see we had our finger off, then put it back in there and shoot another round... It seemed very unusual. Is this normal or what?

I've never heard of that as is pertains to shooting more than one shot in succession from, say, a pistol (i.e. not something like a bolt action rifle). It would certainly revolutionize the world of competitive shooting.

ny32182
March 8, 2010, 01:46 PM
One thing we learned that was completely new to me was taking your finger off the trigger after every single shot. Is this a standard safety rule in the shooting community? It seemed nobody in the class had learned this before and many people forgot this rule between shots and got yelled at. For example, if we were supposed to shoot 5 shots in a row, we couldn't just shoot 5 one right after the other, we had to shoot once, take finger off trigger long enough that the instructor could see we had our finger off, then put it back in there and shoot another round... If you even left your finger inside the trigger guard for a second after firing a shot, and the instructor saw you, you got a "final warning". It felt awkward and I don't remember seeing people shoot this way at the range either. Is this normal or what? He was REALLY strict about it and almost disqualified a couple people who shot more than 1 round without removing their finger.

Nobody ever taught me this rule before. I knew one of the 5 rules was don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot... but if I'm aiming at the target, and planning on shooting 5 shots, I AM ready to shoot again after the first shot.

I guess he wanted to evaluate you after every shot... that is not the norm when shooting double taps or strings. I'd like to see someone get off 3-4 rounds per second (happens routinely in certain competetive and defensive scenarios) removing their finger from the trigger each time... heh.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 01:51 PM
Yeah I thought maybe he was just trying to be extra safe, but really, he talked like this rule was standard among all shooters, and after the range test, he commented on how many of us messed this rule up, and how worried it made him, and kind of tried to make us feel stupid for it. The funny thing is he never said we had to pause between shots, just said to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, then yelled at us once we got to the range if we didn't remove our fingers after every shot. That's why it came as a surprise to me, I didn't realize he meant he wanted us to stop and remove our fingers after EVERY shot, he didn't make that clear beforehand, he just said "now fire 5 shots at the target". It wasn't until after he scolded a few of us that the rest of the class understood this rule.

I hate to think what would have happened if I had just shot my 5 shots in rapid succession, I probably would have gotten thrown out of the class even though people do it all the time at the range. And yes I could have passed the test doing this, I was shooting a .22 so I could definitely empty the magazine and get them all inside the box :D

Kindrox
March 8, 2010, 01:53 PM
Can you pick a fight with someone and then if they start getting the upper hand on you, shoot them

A lot of people "know" the law. Even on obvious mis-perceptions I generally don't bother to attempt to correct such such people anymore because my citing the actual text of the law is less authoritative then what they hear from some guy somewhere.

Many people believe what they would like to be correct.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 01:57 PM
About picking a fight... That one I can sort of understand people having a hard time with, because of the way the law is worded.

We read the actual wording of the law, and it said that if you started the fight, BUT then you tried to withdraw from the fight and were for some reason not able to, and your life became endangered, then you could use deadly force to defend yourself. However, the instructor warned us to "ignore" this paragraph when taking the written test.

I think this might have confused some people and might be why they got that answer wrong... In general you can't use deadly force in a situation where you provoked the fight, but there is a specific case where you can... technically.

My solution is to not start fights in the first place :D

Owen Sparks
March 8, 2010, 01:58 PM
You really don't want the government involved.

Let me approach this argument from another angle. When it comes to crime we treat everyone as innocent until they are proven guilty in a court of law, right? Why should competency with firearms be any different? You should not have to prove yourself competent to exercise a basic constitutional right. The government should have to PROVE you incompetent before denying any right. That is the problem with state licensing. It assumes you incompitent until you prove otherwise.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 02:00 PM
I can see your point of view, I mean, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, should we even be required to have a permit to carry concealed?

I believe here in AZ there's actually a bill in the works that would make it legal to carry concealed without a permit.

For now though, I took the class...

Sam1911
March 8, 2010, 02:06 PM
Yeah I thought maybe he was just trying to be extra safe, but really, he talked like this rule was standard among all shooters, and after the range test, he commented on how many of us messed this rule up, and how worried it made him, and kind of tried to make us feel stupid for it. I hate to think what would have happened if I had just shot my 5 shots all in a row quickly, I probably would have gotten thrown out of the class even though people do it all the time at the range. And yes I could have passed the test doing this, I was shooting a .22 so I could definitely empty the magazine and get them all inside the box

Without having heard his exact comments it would be hard to evaluate what he was trying to do there, but a few thoughts on the subject as applied to defensive "practical" shooting:

1) When you have your sights on a target and have made a decision to shoot, press the trigger smoothly to the rear, release the trigger to the point where it "resets" or releases the disconnector, and then press to the rear again. Repeat until you achieve the result you're looking for. With practice, you can make aimed, accurate shots at a rate exceeding four shots a second with most service handguns. During a string of aimed fire at one target, lifting your finger off the trigger -- and even allowing the trigger to return fully to it's relaxed position -- will only slow you down as not only are you introducing extra travel length into your trigger stroke but you're losing your "index" of where the reset point is.

2) At any (and EVERY) point at which you will stop to re-evaluate your target, transition to another target, and/or move your position, your finger comes OFF the trigger and OUT of the trigger guard. The correct trigger finger position for all functions before and after the moment of firing is pointing straight ahead and resting against the frame, above the trigger guard.

Again, it's hard to evaluate what he was trying to say. If he had some drilling technique by which he was instructing you to take deliberate single shots and wanted to force you to slow down and look at your sights, that might make some sense. As a general rule, (as you've related it) it isn't sound instruction.

ny32182
March 8, 2010, 02:08 PM
Yeah I thought maybe he was just trying to be extra safe, but really, he talked like this rule was standard among all shooters, and after the range test, he commented on how many of us messed this rule up, and how worried it made him, and kind of tried to make us feel stupid for it. The funny thing is he never said we had to pause between shots, just said to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, then yelled at us once we got to the range if we didn't remove our fingers after every shot. That's why it came as a surprise to me, I didn't realize he meant he wanted us to stop and remove our fingers after EVERY shot, he didn't make that clear beforehand, he just said "now fire 5 shots at the target". It wasn't until after he scolded a few of us that the rest of the class understood this rule.

I hate to think what would have happened if I had just shot my 5 shots in rapid succession, I probably would have gotten thrown out of the class even though people do it all the time at the range. And yes I could have passed the test doing this, I was shooting a .22 so I could definitely empty the magazine and get them all inside the box

If there is no more to that story, I would have to start assuming this guy is... well... a moron. Wait till he gets a competent competetive shooter in there and doesn't fully explain that rule. The guy will have five rounds off before he even has time to protest.

ny32182
March 8, 2010, 02:15 PM
2) At any (and EVERY) point at which you will stop to re-evaluate your target, transition to another target, and/or move your position, your finger comes OFF the trigger and OUT of the trigger guard. The correct trigger finger position for all functions before and after the moment of firing is pointing straight ahead and resting against the frame, above the trigger guard.

I only pull my finger out of the guard while simultaneously moving and not shooting and/or reloading.

Just moving your finger from the trigger, to outside the trigger guard, back to the trigger will take more time than it takes to fire a double tap. If you have multiple targets close together it will take more time than it takes to transition between targets. I.e. you couldn't (or at least, I couldn't) do it between the last shot on one target and the first shot on the next, assuming a short transition at play.

Owen Sparks
March 8, 2010, 02:16 PM
When the state assumes the power to license any right; it is no longer a right but a privilege subject to state regulations.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 02:29 PM
Oh I don't think the instructor was a moron, more likely he assumed we were morons :D

Some in the class did act somewhat moronic so I can't blame him too much. To me he seemed like a nice guy who just puts up a tough disciplinarian act to keep people in line. He really just doesn't want anyone getting hurt, I think, that's probably why he was going the extra mile safety-wise, beyond what people would normally do at the shooting range. I can't really blame him since many of the class members had never shot a gun before and surely didn't have well-developed safety habits.

It's also possible that I simply misunderstood his instructions for the shooting test. See, when he was talking about shooting technique for the range test, he actually described how an experienced shooter might fire all 5 shots in rapid succession, but then he said "I doubt any of you will be doing this on the range test". He didn't, however, say "Don't do this on the range test". He repeated many times that we should always remove our fingers until ready to fire but I don't think he made it clear that he wanted our fingers removed after every shot, until we actually started shooting.

Tully M. Pick
March 8, 2010, 02:37 PM
One thing we learned that was completely new to me was taking your finger off the trigger after every single shot. Is this a standard safety rule in the shooting community? It seemed nobody in the class had learned this before and many people forgot this rule between shots and got yelled at. For example, if we were supposed to shoot 5 shots in a row, we couldn't just shoot 5 one right after the other, we had to shoot once, take finger off trigger long enough that the instructor could see we had our finger off, then put it back in there and shoot another round... If you even left your finger inside the trigger guard for a second after firing a shot, and the instructor saw you, you got a "final warning". It felt awkward and I don't remember seeing people shoot this way at the range either. Is this normal or what? He was REALLY strict about it and almost disqualified a couple people who shot more than 1 round without removing their finger.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard yet. I'd forget it as quickly as possible.

shockwave
March 8, 2010, 02:40 PM
Nobody ever taught me this rule before. I knew one of the 5 rules was don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot...

When I took the NRA course there were 3 rules. Later, I began hearing them expressed as the "4 rules" and the new one involved the "don't put your finger on the trigger" business.

1. Assume that all guns are loaded (until proven otherwise)
2. Don't point the gun at something unless you intend to shoot it
3. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire
4. Be sure of your backstop

So what's the 5th rule now?

As for the class mentioned in this post, I've got a couple of thoughts on that. First, maybe he was just trying to make sure everybody understood the "finger off trigger" rule. Second, maybe he was trying to enforce slow rates of fire so he time to walk around, checking people's form. Who knows.

But I wouldn't protest it at all. The way I see it, the range officer can make any rules he wants and all you have to do is follow them. You only have to do this for the 10 shots in the test and you're out the door so no big deal.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 02:59 PM
Yep I agree 100% Shockwave, I wasn't about to argue with the instructor, I just needed to obey his rules and fire my 10 shots. In fact we were warned at the start of the class not to argue with anything the instructor said, so I wasn't about to.

The new 5th rule they are giving now is basically "maintain control of your weapon at all times". I don't remember exactly how it was worded. The idea is to be sure that your gun is always either in your possession, or in a place where some unauthorized person can't get it (or kids for that matter).

heeler
March 8, 2010, 03:01 PM
I took my class a couple of weekends ago and truely enjoyed it.
It was a very small class in a resturaunt and even included a free lunch.
There was a total of seven of us in the class.
One guy had a very non Texan accent and listening to him speak I got the impression he thought this license gave a neo law enforcement capacity.
I mentioned the fact that even though the law mentioned you could you force or deadly force against someone who was commiting a murder, aggravated sexual assault,Robbery,type of major felony etc. dont forget that when you take it upon you to inject yourself in that scenario be aware that if some innocent person gets hurt or killed by your actions you are criminally and civilly liable.

I myself aced the test at the end of the class without getting one answer wrong but I have read the laws over and over again in the last two weeks and have become familiar with them.
BUT...Make a mistake and it will be very costly to you.

FLR72
March 8, 2010, 03:02 PM
I have to agree with Hellbore. A CCW class is an excellent idea for everyone who has not taken one.

I can tell the same story of being around gun’s my whole life blah blah blah. But I will say that first CCW class I took opened my eyes to my own ignorance.

Do every gun owner a favor and take a class and continue to learn, the better educated we are the better we are as a whole, the better we are as a whole the better we look to the rest of the world.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 03:05 PM
For me the biggest eye-opener was thinking about specific scenarios and what the legal consequences would be.

For example, you can kill someone in self-defense and get off without criminal charges, but that doesn't mean the criminal's family won't take everything you own in a civil lawsuit. You need to know this is a possibility. But then again, would you rather be dead? It's very thought-provoking.

Sam1911
March 8, 2010, 03:22 PM
I only pull my finger out of the guard while simultaneously moving and not shooting and/or reloading.

Just moving your finger from the trigger, to outside the trigger guard, back to the trigger will take more time than it takes to fire a double tap. If you have multiple targets close together it will take more time than it takes to transition between targets. I.e. you couldn't (or at least, I couldn't) do it between the last shot on one target and the first shot on the next, assuming a short transition at play.

No argument with that. I wasn't clear, or overstated the point. If you are transitioning between two targets that you would engage in the same string of shots, no you wouldn't have to come off the trigger.

My point was to say "finger discipline" is to be practiced at all times when you are not actively shooting.

ny32182
March 8, 2010, 03:28 PM
No problem Sam, I've seen you post elsewhere that you are a match director; I know that is a PITA with little reward, so... from a regular shooter, even though I don't shoot at your match... thanks for going to the trouble.

shockwave
March 8, 2010, 03:30 PM
The new 5th rule they are giving now is basically "maintain control of your weapon at all times". I don't remember exactly how it was worded. The idea is to be sure that your gun is always either in your possession, or in a place where some unauthorized person can't get it

Not a bad rule (although I bet most of us follow it already - I do). It fits in with the others, working toward the idea of preventing accidental shootings - like we saw with that poor guy who got shot in the knee with his own 9mm.

I really enjoyed my CCW class myself, and I'm really glad that everybody who takes one gets the message loud and clear: You are not being deputized as a LEO, and if you do use your gun, you may potentially be in a world of legal hurt so consider it a total last resort.

bigalexe
March 8, 2010, 03:35 PM
Hey that's a great idea... the government uses funds from those $200 taxes on building and transferring NFA weapons in order to finance free safety/ccw classes.

azyogi
March 8, 2010, 03:56 PM
I would join in with those that say everyone should, not that everyone must. I won't get my ccw because I don't feel that I should have to have a license to exercise a right. If the law passes that I can carry concealed, just the same as I can open, I'll get my CCW. Just because it makes buying easier. Till then I won't cede a right by being forced to buy a license to vote, write, or carry.

mec
March 8, 2010, 04:21 PM
a bunch of them had never shot a gun before, and had
I our area, there is no public land and one shooting range to serve a county of 150,000. There are about 4000 handgun licensees in the county and the club range has just closed membership at just over 1,000. Additionally, the range has limited availability for weekend shooters because of shooting contests that serve a few dozen members and non member participants. On holidays, the range is extremely crowded with one or two super enthusiasts usually taking up the "practical" range. The CHL qualification ranges in the area are private affairs that are not open for the license holders to practice. As a result, a very large number of our handgun carriers will not shoot again until they requalify. Initially this is after four years, then five years and after that the shooter is not required to requalify more than once in a ten year period.
When the chl law first passed, a couple of people opened ranges but lost interest when they found out how much trouble is involved in managing them.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 04:34 PM
Wow mec that is terrible.

However, where I live people have no excuse. There are lots of shooting ranges, and I have been to a few, and they are not too crowded. Usually you can get a lane without any waiting time.

My personal favorite right now is Caswells because it's close to where I live, you can rent a gun there OR on Tuesdays it is ladies night and ladies get FREE gun and lane rental! The only thing they pay for is ammo.

Not only that, but we are surrounded by beautiful desert areas no more than a maximum of 30 minutes drive from home, and in a lot of these areas shooting is allowed as long as you follow a few rules and clean up after yourself. There are also outdoor areas where people shoot and don't even clean up after themselves, for the lazier shooter (I am not agreeing with this practice, but it is done every day).

Anyone who lives here has lots of affordable or even free places where they could shoot if they wanted to.

In fact Arizona is a great place to live if you like any kind of outdoor activities, we have a lot of different types of outdoor fun at our disposal within a short drive!

mec
March 8, 2010, 04:45 PM
I'm glad it still that way for some people.

Hellbore
March 8, 2010, 05:36 PM
Oh I almost forgot, another funny thing from my CCW class that I almost forgot:

While we were watching some of the other shooters, my nephew pointed out that one lady who was particularly bad and ended up needing 3 retries to pass the shooting test, had actually landed a couple of shots on her neighbor's target :D

Pretty funny, after everyone fired 5 shots, his paper had 7 holes in it and hers had maybe 2 or 3...

Mikhail Weiss
March 8, 2010, 06:36 PM
This...


Out of the 50 or so in the class, a bunch of them had never shot a gun before, and had bought their first gun just for this class.


...probably explains this...


There was a range qualification test where we had to hit at least 7 out of 10 inside the larger box of a TQ15 silhouette target from 30 feet. ... but some people needed 2 or 3 retries before they could pass.


And this...


The thing that was really scary though was that a lot of people in the class did not get 100% on the written test, even after 8 hours of being taught what the laws are. I don't know if they didn't listen or what. The test was VERY easy. In fact, I am pretty sure I could have scored 100% on the test without even taking the class, because most of the questions were common sense.


...is likely yet more proof that common sense isn't always all that common. The Constitution, however, doesn't discriminate (nor does it require testing and licensing and the payment of fees before a right can be exercised in whole or in part). Senseless people get all the same rights as sensible ones, at least until they abuse them.

Speaking of senseless people, I suspect that's exactly what you noticed this:


One thing we learned that was completely new to me was taking your finger off the trigger after every single shot. Is this a standard safety rule in the shooting community?


To the first part: a catch-all safety precaution. To the second, nope. And this is odd.


...he commented on how many of us messed this rule up, and how worried it made him, and kind of tried to make us feel stupid for it.


Maybe he's worried about ADs and losing his job, but making his students feel stupid is poor teaching.

mec
March 8, 2010, 07:11 PM
One of the early things noticed about the fifty question test in Texas was that some people missed not the common sense give away questions but could miss every important question and still pass. The Dallas Morning News credited Massad Ayoob with noticing this and making the (adopted) suggestion that the instructors go back over every missed question and make sure the class hears the correct answer. Ayoob was one of a small group of recognized trainers solicited for comment by the DPS when they designed the program. There are a couple of potentially confusing questions on every version of the test. I have found that some people will make 98 percent and miss one of these questions and it is often because the Instructor has said something to confuse them. I know this because I am the instructor who confused them.

The standard procedure at the DPS Instructor Training sessions ist to insist that shooters in the ready mode, keep their trigger finger outside the trigger guard and deployed along the frame above it. That way, they can tell at a glance that all fingers are off the trigger. The phrase "finger off the trigger!" is frequently heard on CHL firing lines and often seemingly ignored until the instructor realizes that his super senior citizen applicant removed his hearing aid prior to putting on the muff/type hearing protectors. This may have been why a number of your classmates messed this up and it may be the instructor who should feel stupid for not making sure everybody heard the command.
The Texas shooting demo consists of fifty rounds fired at various (short) distances in different sequences. The "finger off the trigger-out of the guard" rule applies at the beginning of a sequence and at the end when the shooter returns to ready but does not apply when the drill calls for multiple shots.

At this year's instructor recertification, back at the class room, introduced one of the instructors as having plowed bullets into the wooden target holder about three feet below his target. He reminded us that we are accountable for every shot we loose and that instructors should be able to at least hit the silhouette from seven yards.

makarovnik
March 8, 2010, 08:09 PM
Certainly wouldn't hurt.

General Tso
March 8, 2010, 10:01 PM
Government involvement in the licensing of a right is the tip of a very dangerous wedge. Any time the state assumes the power to allow something; it also gains the power to prohibit it.

You would not want to be subjected to a background check, mandatory waiting period or state mandated Bible classes to make sure that you were not some kind of religious fanatic before being issued a license to attend church would you?

Can you see how dangerous this is?

Amen!

Mikhail Weiss
March 8, 2010, 10:50 PM
I, too, find that curious, since there seems to be at least one Supreme Court case already on the books that establishes a big no-no on licensing of rights, and cases in lesser courts, too. Of course I'm not a lawyer, so I expect there are lawyerly reasons why licenses for such things persist...


"No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor."
--Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105, US Supreme Court, [1943].



As stated by the Supreme Court of Illinois ... a person cannot be compelled "to purchase, through a license fee or a license tax, the privilege freely granted by the constitution." Blue Island v. Kozul, 379 Ill. 511, 519, 41 N.E.2d 515.

SwampWolf
March 9, 2010, 06:04 PM
Quote:
Government involvement in the licensing of a right is the tip of a very dangerous wedge. Any time the state assumes the power to allow something; it also gains the power to prohibit it.

You would not want to be subjected to a background check, mandatory waiting period or state mandated Bible classes to make sure that you were not some kind of religious fanatic before being issued a license to attend church would you?

Can you see how dangerous this is?

Amen!

I don't know how you "double" an amen or "plus" it, so I'll just add: Hallelujah!

JohnBT
March 9, 2010, 06:36 PM
"Till then I won't cede a right by being forced to buy a license to vote, write, or carry."

None of my grandparents had to have a driver's license way back when. They told me they weren't required to have them when they first started driving. They were born 1891 - 1893 fwiw.

Are you going to give up your license now that they are charging a fee for something that used to be free? Freedom of travel and all that, you know. It's a right.

John

P.S. - All in favor of mandatory parenting classes, raise your hands.

Owen Sparks
March 9, 2010, 06:51 PM
John said:

None of my grandparents had to have a driver's license way back when. They told me they weren't required to have them when they first started driving. They were born 1891 - 1893 fwiw.

Are you going to give up your license now that they are charging a fee for something that used to be free? Freedom of travel and all that, you know. It's a right.

Hold on John, you only need a license to drive on a GOVERNMENT road. This is a subtle but important distinction. You don’t need a license, tag, inspection sticker or even tail lights to drive around in your own pasture. You have a natural right to your life and therefore a natural right to protect it with the necessary tools. Government has no business licensing this right.

SwampWolf
March 10, 2010, 02:20 AM
Excellent point, Owen. To add, the Founding Fathers (yep, they had to arrive sooner or later :)) didn't see the government granting any of the rights they enumerated; said rights being "...self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

Geez, I guess this is drifting a little off course from the op's topic. Sorry, I'll try to better control myself in the future.

REAPER4206969
March 10, 2010, 07:29 AM
For example, you can kill someone in self-defense and get off without criminal charges, but that doesn't mean the criminal's family won't take everything you own in a civil lawsuit. You need to know this is a possibility.
Arizona is a castle doctrine state, is it not?

Sheldon J
March 10, 2010, 06:14 PM
While I fully agree every responsible gun owner should take some kind of a weapons class.... I have over the years since getting my CPL taken multiple advanced clases.... why? Because it just makes good sense to be as prepared as possible for when things go wrong. Can everyone afford these classes (I have paid as much as a K for one 3 day class:what:) defiantly not so with that said...

Don't give the politicians any ideas, we have enough gun laws on the books now.:evil:

Owen Sparks
March 10, 2010, 10:35 PM
The problem with making classes mandatory is that the collective nature of government considers every gun owner as no better than the least common denominator. Therefore if some gun owners are incompetent, then ALL gun owners are treated as incompetents and required to prove themselves worthy before exercising a right.

Any time you are seen as part of a group, you are considered no better than the least member of that group.

beatcop
March 10, 2010, 11:36 PM
It IS a regulated right....there's no denying that. Forget the sharp edge, we're well past it.

It's the "least common denominator" that screws things up for the rest of the populace, get the fools trained up so we all don't have to suffer the consequences of legislating common sense.

sonick808
March 11, 2010, 04:52 AM
the class you described sounds like the one i took at Scottsdale Gun Club w/ Tim Forshey as the instructor (who BTW was amazing, a gun defense lawyer, judge, p/t deputy and IPSC marksman badass)

Sorry if I'm off-base, some of your key words sounded like we took the same class at the same place with the same guy (at different times)

Hellbore
March 11, 2010, 05:27 AM
Sorry, this class wasn't with Tim or at that location. Interesting that our classes were this similar though :D

Hellbore
March 11, 2010, 05:31 AM
Arizona is a castle doctrine state, is it not?

Sure, but that only helps you when you're at home.

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 07:40 AM
Most castle doctrines include "where ever you have a right to be." Is AZ different?

Hellbore
March 11, 2010, 08:05 AM
I don't know, #1 there was no mention of castle doctrine in the class, and #2 the instructor specifically said that even if you shoot someone and it was self-defense, expect to be sued and potentially lose everything you own.

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 08:42 AM
Sounds like a poor instructor.

shockwave
March 11, 2010, 09:22 AM
Most castle doctrines include "where ever you have a right to be." Is AZ different?

Florida law is a bit hazy on this. No question "castle doctrine" applies to your home and vehicle (includes bicycle). There is no need to retreat. In public, where you have a right to be someplace, is where it's less clear (http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html).

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

* Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
* Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

So according to that you are justified in deadly force to protect yourself or others from imminent or occurring harm. But then a little further along there's this:

Q. What if someone is attacking me in my own home?

A. The courts have created an exception to the duty to retreat called the “castle doctrine.” Under the castle doctrine, you need not retreat from your own home to avoid using deadly force against an assailant. The castle doctrine applies if you are attacked in your own home by an intruder.

Here then is the infamous "duty to retreat" phrase. Balancing these two sections implies that in public, while you might be justified in producing and/or firing your weapon in self defense, there is an expectation that retreat is preferable if possible. A further section explains that your place of business is equivalent to your home with respect to castle doctrine.

Double Naught Spy
March 12, 2010, 12:28 PM
Out of the 50 or so in the class, a bunch of them had never shot a gun before, and had bought their first gun just for this class.

This is surprisingly common.

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