[trol79]

Hi, I have question to those who use slugs for home defense. At a range to max. 10 meters/yards; do slugs have a greater stopping power than buckshot or do you load them in case greater range is needed?

[figment]

range and penetration mostly.

[Birdhunter1]

10 meters for a slug sounds like an aweful long shot to me! :)

At 10 meters a person you shoot with either a slug or buckshot won't really care which you shot them with, either way it is gonna hurt real bad or it won't hurt at all.

[Pancho]

Birdhunter1, As a deerhunter in a shotgun only state I can testify to the devastating damage a slug will do out to 75 yards. I'd also tell you about 100 and 150 yard shots but they were stories told to me by my hunting pals and you know how hunters lie.

[Birdhunter1]

As a person who has hunted deer with slugs for 20 years I can also tell you the stories first hand of what slugs can do out to 150 yards. The intent of my previous post was to show the humor in the idea of using a slug as a home defense item. Yeah it'd work great, but so would an Abram's parked in the kitchen.

For all practical purposes #7 1/2 birdshot would work in a home defense situation, and it would work well. To those of you who want to argue that does anybody want to let me take a shot at ya with #9 shot at 20 yards?

[mljdeckard]

If I had to CHOOSE between 7 1/2 and #4 buck, I would certainly choose birdshot.

I don't think it's a bad idea to keep a couple of slugs handy, say in a sidesaddle, in case you NEED to shoot through something, but I would make it a backup plan.

[figment]

if you want to create a horrible wound, bird shot is the ticket from 0-15 yards. bird shot is (for birds).:scrutiny:

[GunsAreGood]

mljdeckard I completely agree with you. Keep the HD gun with a heavy birdshot. I choose something along the lines of a duck or goose load and some buck shot or slugs in a side sattle for that just in case situation. Birdshot will "do the job" so to speak at most Home Defense situations. It is definitely a must to have a more powerful option than birdshot because you might have to shoot through an object or the BG's might be wearing a vest or something along those lines. Slugs and Buckshot just penetrate through to many walls to be my first option as a defensive round.

[EMT40SW]

As a Paramedic I can attest first hand for the ineffectiveness of birdshot on a human target. I once had a patient (good guy) shot at less than 10 feet shot with 7.5 birdshot from a 12 ga between his shoulder blades. He was able to run 200 feet to his house and call 911. He had about a fist sized chunk of soft tissue missing, but he did not have any major bleeding and no neurological impairment. He was discharged from the trauma center 3 hours after getting there. If he had been shot with buckshot he would have been instantly paralyzed probable severed his spinal cord at minimum. If he had been shot with a slug it would have severed his spinal cord/column & got a lung, heart ventricle. This time it was lucky for the good guy, but if it was an intruder that was shot he could have shot back.

Lesson learned birdshot sucks for self defense!!!

[EMT40SW]

Oh yeah your question. Slugs are great for shooting through things or for a shotgun that you keep in your truck, because it will penatrate vehicles. Buckshot is probably a better chioce for HD, but most windshields will stop buckshot.

[figment]

Thanks for the INFO EMT40SW.

[LibShooter]

If you're going to use slugs or HD, why not just use a rifle?

Or are we talking about shot and slug rounds living together in the same magazine?

[Sam1911]

For all practical purposes #7 1/2 birdshot would work in a home defense situation, and it would work well.

Please read this link: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&start=0
It will settle the "isn't birdshot just GREAT for home defense?" question.

And some pertinent quotes from another recent thread: (Some mine, some borrowed.)

"Any projectile fired from a firearm that is capable of reliably stopping an attacker is *also* capable of penetrating a few sheets of dry-wall. Any projectile that will NOT penetrate dry-wal will NOT consistenly penetrate deeply enough in a human body to reliably stop an attacker."

"Sorry, that's just the way it is. If it will go deep enough to have a good chance of stopping the bad guy, it will penetrate dry wall. If if won't penetrate dry wall, it won't reliably go deep enough to stop a determined attacker."

"Any round capable of stopping an attacker won't even be phased by walls."


"Rounds that don't punch through walls like paper are also only marginally better than pepper spray. #8 shot will certainly ruin a burglar's evening, but the second that 'burglar' turns into 'attacker,' #8 will have to be used at near point-blank, or will otherwise have two very specific effects: jack and squat."

"Birdshot is for birds. Penetration on a clothed, human attacker, who probably won't give you a squared up shot anyway, will probably have arms and other items in front of his vitals, and who may be wearing a leather jacket and/or multiple layers of clothing is NOT sufficient to count on to halt an attack."

"Sure, getting shot --at all-- is a bad and disheartening thing, but not all violent aggressors are wired to give up at the first shot (many have been shot before and lived to attack again), and those who've altered their mental state with various chemicals might not even register a small-caliber wound or 20."

'If you use a shotgun for defense, choose your rounds wisely. Go with something that can penetrate far enough to do the kind of damage required to shut the systems down."

"Accept the fact that this means they're going to penetrate building materials too. That's just physics. And also realize that even 00 buck shot, individually, are horribly inferior to any common defensive pistol bullet from the perspective of penetration and energy. You're counting on multiple hits to have a cumulative effect, but it may only be one projectile that really hits a vital mark. Make it a big one that has the chance to get there and do its job."

Etc.

[Exceptions to some of the above statements have been largely proved true in the case of high-velocity small-caliber rifle cartridges. However, low-weight, moderate-velocity spherical projectiles are right out.]

To those of you who want to argue that does anybody want to let me take a shot at ya with #9 shot at 20 yards?

This is a poor strawman argument used often to justify really unconscionable choices. No one wants to be shot, with ANY firearm. I don't want to be shot with a .25 ACP, .22LR, a crossbow, or a Red Ryder BB gun. That doesn't make any of them adequate to do significant damage to a violent (and possibly drug-altered) attacker to stop an attack.

[Al LaVodka]

Skip the slugs, Sluggo.

Shot? Small Buck. I am currently centered around a little lighter load #4 Buck (.24 caliber) for "household" use. Years ago, and I don't think you can even find these around much today, I used to alternate between BB (.18 caliber) and #2 Shot (.15 caliber) for the same purpose and would not go less than the latter under any circumstances...

Al

[Birdhunter1]

I never said birdshot wouldn't penetrate a wall, but in a true home defense situation you are most likely under 30' where your pattern hasn't had much of a chance to open up and you essentially have a mass of lead. I just said it as it beats the heck out of nothing, personally I would load mine with #4 buck, but I also keep a .45 next to my bed so no need for a loaded shotgun next to the bed.

[arizona98tj]

To those of you who want to argue that does anybody want to let me take a shot at ya with #9 shot at 20 yards?

This is a poor strawman argument used often to justify really unconscionable choices. No one wants to be shot, with ANY firearm. I don't want to be shot with a .25 ACP, .22LR, a crossbow, or a Red Ryder BB gun. That doesn't make any of them adequate to do significant damage to a violent (and possibly drug-altered) attacker to stop an attack.

Sam....a similar comment came up one day within a group of my shooting friends. I told the gentleman that made the statement that I would take him up on it as long as I was able to return one round of 00, assuming I was still capable of doing so. As he was so confident that the bird shot would put me down for the count, he was virtually guaranteed of winning the bet and walking away unscathed. He withdrew his offer. I guess he wasn't all that sure of his dove load after all. :D LOL!!!!

[mljdeckard]

I should have phrased my sentence differently. I meant to say that if I had to CHOOSE a load to get hit with, I would choose birdshot over buckshot. I'm not interested in nasty wounds, I'm interested in stopping the bad guy.

[Girodin]

For all practical purposes #7 1/2 birdshot would work in a home defense situation, and it would work well. To those of you who want to argue that does anybody want to let me take a shot at ya with #9 shot at 20 yards?

This is a horrible idea backed up by an argument that doesn't stand as evidence that bird shot is effective for HD. Rather it only stands as evidence that it would not be something one would want to experience. To illustrate how horrible of an argument, "would you want to be shot by it?" is I'll posit that a kick in the groin will suffice for HD purposes and to support that contention I'll pose you this question--Would you let me to kick you in the groin as hard as I can? If we accept the logic of the "would you like to be shot by it?" crowd we logically will get to the conclusion that we don't even need a shotgun, kick to the groin is sufficient.

The fact is that there are a great many indicators that bird shot is far from sufficient for a HD load. I could make a very long list but perhaps the most convincing to me is the fact that I have shot pheasants (and various other small game) and distances that do not exceed the longest clear paths in my home and had to deliver a coup de grace. There have also been enough hunting accidents to indicate that bird shot is not a reliable man stopper. Add to that fact gel tests, physics, and common sense and the case for bird shot is not a good one. Perhaps that is why no well regarded trainer or expert recommends using it.


the intent of my previous post was to show the humor in the idea of using a slug as a home defense item.

While they may not be the best choice for every user in every set of circumstances we can imagine there is nothing that makes using slugs for HD a priori a bad idea or humorous. In a HD situation you are trying to stop a threat to life or limb and slugs are capable of doing that in short order. They of course carry other concerns, namely potential for over penetration. I know of very knowledgeable people that stock their shotguns with slugs. BTW I could opt for slugs in life or death scenario over bird shot every time.

but in a true home defense situation you are most likely under 30' where your pattern hasn't had much of a chance to open up and you essentially have a mass of lead.

This is another physics defying myth that bird shot proponents drag out. The posit that at short ranges bird shot is still in such a tight shot column that it acts the same as or substantially similar to a single solid projectile when it hits a person. They then in the next breath note that at these same short ranges it will have less over penetration than a single projectile such as a slug or even individual pellet of buckshot. How can these both be true? They are not. Look at any gel test, or look at actual wounds birdshot has produced. It is not acting like a single projectile. It does not reliably pentrate. It is not adequate for any situation in which one's life is on the line.

The first priority of a defensive situation is to stop an imminent threat to one's life or a threat of serious bodily harm ASAP. If it is not that type of threat (and it could be a failing of any of the elements) one should not be firing anyways (BTW castle doctrine presumes that a person in your home is that type of threat). One ought to use a round that is proven to be able to do the very task one is calling on it to do, bird shot is not such a round.

As to the OP's question, I believe that slugs do have greater "stopping power" than buckshot.

[sarduy]

i use 3'' 00 Buck 15-pellets... and if that doesn't work... i have 5 1oz slugs in a stock-pouch

[LS240]

For those who think birdshot is sufficient, I just have two words: Dick Cheney. Has everyone forget the instance of him shooting his hunting buddy in the face, neck, and chest? Does not everyone remember that the guy lived? So if it doesn't even "stop" someone when it hits in what could only be described as several critical areas, then why would you ever think it would work for HD? Birdshot is a silly idea and I sincerely hope you never have to engage anyone with it, for more reasons than one, as I fear the consequences for you and your family.

[huntsman]

if you're going to use birdshot make it #4 at least 1-1/4oz and then have a BUG in .44mag ;)

[straitnate14]

what about them rounds from centurion??? I got a few at a gunshow as a gimmick round but they might actualy work good if they pattern well?

Combines the power of a slug with the spread of buckshot. 12 Gauge, 2 3/4", One .65" lead ball followed by six 1 Buck pellets, 1300 fps, 10 rounds per box. 1300fps .650 Round ball surrounded by 6 #1 Buckshot
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM823-5.html

[Zip7]

Has anyone here ever shot a living thing with buckshot at home defense range - say 25 yards or less?

I've killed about a dozen deer with 3" magnum #1 buck at 25 yards and in. It will waylay one in it's tracks better than hitting it with an average sized automobile. I've killed a number of deer at pretty close range with rifles as well, and without a doubt the buckshot is a better stopper at very close range.

If you plan to use a shotgun because you believe you won't have to aim as precisely, better think again... at 10 yards you can completely miss an 8 point buck with buckshot. I've done it.

Birdshot isn't going to be as effective a stopper, but those arguments are always presented as a choice between polar opposites. I don't know that I would want to use #8 shot dove loads for HD, but 3" magnum steel T or BB shot is pretty serious medicine. They used to make lead BB shot shells as well. Any of those will carry a hell of a lot more punch than dove loads.

[mljdeckard]

^^I've seen these before, a half slug and buck, and I have to ask.......why? You reduce the effectiveness of the slug by reducing the weight, you reduce the effectiveness of the shot by reducing the number of pellets. Pick one.

[Sam1911]

^^I've seen these before, a half slug and buck, and I have to ask.......why? You reduce the effectiveness of the slug by reducing the weight, you reduce the effectiveness of the shot by reducing the number of pellets. Pick one.

There was just a review of those in some magazine I got. Maybe G&A -- can't remember.

The guy was showing of the "acceptable" groups and he did get the slug in the right spot and surrounding it were like three buck shot impacts, like in the shoulder, gut, and groin or some such. They looked insufficient to do any good and supurfluous, considering a decent hit with the slug. What was scary is that they appeard to have spread out to a 20" group or so. All our worries about "overpenetration" and then we'd choose a load that will throw some of the pellets right PAST the target even with an almost perfect hit?

That doesn't make sense to me.

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // I started with 2 3/4" #4 in 12ga. with a slug as last round in 7+1, Remington 870 Wingmaster, 28" ribbed barrel modified choke (the do all gun thing).

I now have Reduced Recoil 00,nice tight pattern( if it is good enough for LEO it is good enough for me), in a 6+1, Rem. 870 Express Tac. 18 1/2" barrel cylinder choke.

The 28" modified barrel is much more accurate with slugs(I've only tried sluggers), especially past 25-30 yards.
IMHO This greatly limits the possible uses for slugs out of an 18 1/2" cylinder choke barrel.

I carry 5 slugs in the buttcuff for the following:
#1) Tight shot needed (00 pattern would harm family or hit propane tank...etc)
#2) Open locked door
#3) Turn cover(with other shell choices from a shotgun) into concealment
#4) Multiple BGs enter funnel (given time)
#5) Disable Vehicle
#6) Defend against large animal

You are responsible for every round fired til it stops, that is an awesome responsiblity. Have a plan for every round used.
Having the high ground in an HD safe spot, shooting down through the BG into the ground would be the prefered scenerio for me, especially using slugs.

[IllHunter]

Or are we talking about shot and slug rounds living together in the same magazine?
Yes we are, we have been and continue to discuss, obviously. I am presently alternating 00 buck with slugs in 18.5" CYL and if the 7+1 in the mag, don't end the interchange, there's 5 more in the side saddle and a box of 25 at hand if it gets "serious". Please see my previous posts for "Zombie" tactics.:what:

[Girodin]

I'm not a fan of alternating buck and slugs. I want to know what is coming out of the pipe when I pull the trigger. Alternating rounds makes that much more difficult under stress.

[roo_ster]

Question about slugs for HD
Hi, I have question to those who use slugs for home defense. At a range to max. 10 meters/yards; do slugs have a greater stopping power than buckshot or do you load them in case greater range is needed?

The "buck vs slug" stopping power question has a few too many variables to give a straight-up answer without some explanation & vigorous waving of hands.

First, I think it has been demonstrated that at some [range envelope / shot velocity / shot pattern / choke / shotgun / shot size (000 to 4buck)] buckshot will destroy more tissue than a slug. This range is not at zero/muzzle and it is not at 25 yards. It is some indeterminate range envelope (Xyds to Yyds) between 0 and 25 yards.

So, what range is that? I think it is dependent on too many factors to determine without taking your own shotgun out and blasting the heck out of a metric buttload of ballistic gel.

More to your particular question, is that range less than 10 yards? Again, it is difficult to determine that.

But, we do know that outside that small-ish envelope, slugs can be counted on to do more tissue damage. I tossed in the range of 25 yards as a pretty-much undisputed range at which most everyone agrees that buckshot is less effective than slugs. Heck, many buckshot loads won't even keep all pellets on target at 25 yards.

Folks like myself like slugs* for a few reasons and are willing to trade off that small envelope for:
1. Greater precision of delivery at short range (proverbial hostage-as-shield & other situations)
2. Effectiveness at longer ranges and ability to put ALL lead into target
3. Less guesswork WRT projectile(s) going trough drywall



Range in yards ; Most tissue destruction
0/muzzle ; indeterminate (likely gases at muzzle do more than either?)
X ; buckshot (of some particular size)
Y ; buckshot
Y+1 ; slug
25 ; slug



* I don;t presently use slugs for HD, as a neighboring house straight out of my front door has vinyl siding facing my front door. A slug would rip through that siding, but buckshot likely wouldn't penetrate.

[Al LaVodka]

Oh Tham;
Buck-n-ball loads of .75/.69 caliber "pumpkin ball" with a few of typically what are today 0 Buckshot (my personal favorite) were the standard load for the US Army since The American Revolution at the order of no less than General Washington himself. To cite myself...

In October 1777, General Washington recommended the men deliver their first volley with a load of “one musket ball and four or eight buckshot, according to the strength of their pieces.” And from Army GENERAL ORDERS, Head Quarters, Perkiomy, October 6, 1777; “buckshot are to be put into all cartridges which shall be hereafter made."

This lasted as the most effective load right up until the rifled arms of the American Thivil War replathed the thmoothbores!

Al

[Rshooter]

I will take slugs thanks. Went hunting one winter with my father-in-law and he got a pheasant that took wing less than two yards off. You would have believed that it blew that bird up but when cleaning it we found some of the shot had not even penetrated the skin of that little bugger.

[Al LaVodka]

So, R..., you're leaping right past "birdshot is for birds" to hunting Pheasant with slugs. Wow!

BTW fellas, somewhere in the middle of Bird and Buck is what they used to refer to as Swan Shot which is what I recommend for literally HD. Heck, it might even bring down one o'them armor-plated upland game birds...

:rolleyes:

Al

[DasFriek]

"Accept the fact that this means they're going to penetrate building materials too. That's just physics. And also realize that even 00 buck shot, individually, are horribly inferior to any common defensive pistol bullet from the perspective of penetration and energy. You're counting on multiple hits to have a cumulative effect, but it may only be one projectile that really hits a vital mark. Make it a big one that has the chance to get there and do its job."

While i agree with the birdshot being useless, But to say 00buck is less effective than a pistol i don't agree on.
I load my 500spx with 3" 00 12 pellet shell's which would equal 12 shots from a .30 caliber handgun all at once. Each pellet has enough energy to penetrate deeply and even possibly exit the target.

I will admit a 12 guage slug is more devastating round. I just don't feel its the best choice for a HD situation.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Well, here's the thing.... listen to what that paramedic said earlier. Or go to boxotruth.com.....

I've thought before about this issue that shotguns are roughly equivalent to "What if there had been blackpowder subguns?" (hear me out)

Basically, a rounded small caliber ball moving at generally sub-sonic speeds is what buckshot is. And between 8-12 are headed at the bad guy. So, it's like taking a subgun burst from a blackpowder subgun (if such an animal had been a reality).

Slugs are.... well just really powerful based on their overall weight. I wouldn't use one for home protection except as a specialty situation. (same sort of scenarios that might have me breaking out a rifle).... because a slug turns your shotgun into a really high caliber rifle which (if it's semi or pump) can fire much more quickly than many of the rifles out there.

[Sam1911]

Oh Sam;
Buck-n-ball loads of .75/.69 caliber "pumpkin ball" with a few of typically what are today 0 Buckshot (my personal favorite) were the standard load for the US Army since The American Revolution at the order of no less than General Washington himself. To cite myself...
Certainly that is common enough knowledge. However, we are not standing shoulder-to-shoulder in a dressed line, firing en masse against another line of troops at a set distance across an open battlefield -- where a hit on the soldier at which you'd aimed was just as good as a hit on any of the others near him.

To give proper weight to your point, about the time we STOPPED doing that, we stopped using buck&ball as a standard recommended load. (I'd like to hear though it any has been issued through WWI, WWII, etc. Would make an interesting study.)

In a home-defensive situation, the best multiple-pellet load is going to be just about the tightest load you can deliver. Pellets that MISS are worse than pellets that overpenetrate. Pellets that drift off and wound the gut or the arm or shoulder (or your TV...) don't incapacitate immediately and so are of limited value.

The proof really is in the grouping. If you test modern buck-and-ball loads in your shotgun and the three little balls follow the larger ball (or slug) closely, and they all hit close to point-of-aim, great! If those superfluous extra balls spread randomly and far, I'd put the idea in the "gimmick" category.

I've not shot any myself -- just read reviews various places -- so I'm not completely discounting them.

[Girodin]

Certainly that is common enough knowledge. However, we are not standing shoulder-to-shoulder in a dressed line, firing en masse against another line of troops at a set distance across an open battlefield -- where a hit on the soldier at which you'd aimed was just as good as a hit on any of the others near him.

To give proper weight to your point, about the time we STOPPED doing that, we stopped using buck&ball as a standard recommended load. (I'd like to hear though it any has been issued through WWI, WWII, etc. Would make an interesting study.)

We also are not really benefited if a a person we shoot at dies weeks latter from infection and in as much as antibiotics have become common since the time of the buck and ball load death from an infected wound from a single peripheral hit is much less likely anyhow.

If I were going to look at a non standard load for HD it would be dixie slug tri ball, I however am content with tried and true slugs and buck shot.

[Al LaVodka]

A buckshot load is less effective than a single projectile beyond 25 meters. Hence, The Ball. At closer ranges the multiple hits and higher hit probability, including even one essentially from a .32 ACP, let's call it The Buck, suggest a more effective, multiple-use, load with modern components and arms than even our forefathers relied on. Civil War and later military shotguns were, and are, applied and loaded most specifically for ranges within the closer-half of the effective range of a shotgun. Note their choke, if they have any, which rarely even get to Modified...

Why someone would think the iron men of our founding, who in infantry were engaged at distances from hand-to-hand through tens-of-yards (similar to multi-purpose HD) using their single-shot "12 ga." as their main battle arm right below the cold steel bayonet on it, were somehow less interested in immediately stopping an enemy than we are is just misguided. These very practical people didn't add Buck to Ball to make someone sick...

:rolleyes:

Al

PS: Tham 1911, I was jutht teathing about your writht thtill hurting after firing a PGO thotgun a decade ago but hope thith findth you muth improved. ;)

[Sav .250]

Slugs/12 ga...........will knock any of the big bears stupid! Used by Alaska F/G service. You be the judge. :)

[TNT in Round Rock]

for those wanting to use a birdshot - are we trying to create a less-than-lethal weapon out of a shotgun ? I'm not trying to be extreme or cruel here, but let's be direct. If you're in a home defense situation, and you've pulled a shotgun to use.. and we're talking self DEFENSE here, are you trying to make it sting, or are you shooting to kill ??

[76shuvlinoff]

for those wanting to use a birdshot - are we trying to create a less-than-lethal weapon out of a shotgun ? I'm not trying to be extreme or cruel here, but let's be direct. If you're in a home defense situation, and you've pulled a shotgun to use.. and we're talking self DEFENSE here, are you trying to make it sting, or are you shooting to kill ??

In an HD scenario I choose as much controlled devastation as I can possibly generate. Slug first then all 00 from there. 2 3/4 rounds because 3" wrecks my follow-ups.

[winchester '97]

Birdshot is believe it or not, only suitable for birds! Slugs are a bad idea for HD, because if they go all the way through a 250 pound buck i would guess they will penetrate though a human torso, and overpenetration is a huge safety issue with HD ammo. Buckshot works great because it is a man stopper and most likely will not exit the torso. Birdshot is only good for peppering stray dogs from a long ways away or so to get the message across if your not busting clays or birds with it, anything else is irresponsible.

[Sir Aardvark]

At a range to max. 10 meters/yards; do slugs have a greater stopping power than buckshot or do you load them in case greater range is needed?

Back to the OP's question...

I don't think anyone here would deny that slugs have more stopping power than buckshot, but, please keep in mind that slugs can go straight through your house and into your neighbor's house too!

Buckshot will also be able to penetrate multiple walls, but will not penetrate as far as a slug.

Out to 10 yards, buckshot should be adequate. Slugs are good for those 50 - 100 yard shots.

Sure, it is important to make sure that you are safe by choosing the right gun, but keep in mind the safety of your neighbors when you choose the ammunition. If you lived out in the boondocks where your closest neighbor was a mile away, then I'd say, "Go ahead, load up them slugs!"

I also think that people who load alternate rounds of slug and buckshot in their magazines are misguided. The shooter should be shooting the specific type of ammo necessary for the situation he finds himself in. 'Alternate ammo loaders' should try taking some training classes so that you can learn what ammo work best for a given situation and also learn how to make a "combat-reload", so that they can rapidly chamber the specific load they need.

"Use enough gun" is a very appropriate saying, but, for your neighbor's sake, make sure you don't use too much gun...

[RX-178]

I use buck & ball in my HD shotgun, and patterning out to 20 yards, it's pretty tight in my weapon. I don't remember exactly, and I'm away from my arsenal at the moment so I can't check, but the pattern was about three or four inches tighter than the pattern from the 00 buck shell I patterned (and I can't remember which brand I was using).

The patterning doesn't always have the round ball dead center, but considering that normal buckshot doesn't have a round ball for you to arbitrarily say where the center of the pattern should be, I'm not about to use that as a strike against it.

I tried the buck & ball round at 50 yards next, but I suppose you could say I drank the koolaid, because I was ignoring the pellets and focusing only on where the .65 ball landed. I fired a six shot group, and the .65 balls made a group less than about 5" across. Not exceptional, but not bad either.

I'd have to say that in my experience the stuff works as advertised. Up to 20 yards, I'd say it performs reasonably well as buckshot, and I do think it has less overpenetration issues than a slug would. At 50 yards, the ball was pretty accurate. I didn't have any slugs to try out to compare it to, but it was better than I could do with a pistol at that range.

Since I don't discount the possibility of having to fire at a target outside of the home in an HD scenario, I keep my shotgun loaded with them.

I also keep brenneke 3" slugs on the side saddle. Don't really anticipate a situation where they'll be necessary, but I like having them there just in case anyways.

[n/apower]

I would use a slug, but it could over-penetrate. So I switched to #4 buckshot, but after reading this thread, I switched to birdshot, but I really care about people, so I have sold my shotgun and have practiced screaming "FIRE" really loud, because that is what people have told me will attract the most attention. I think it is totally irresponsible to do anything but yell if attacked. You could put an eye out otherwise.

However, if I were to move back into "the real world", I would probably load that shotgun with #1 buck or larger. A soft foster slug (especially a HP slug like Winchester's Power Point) at 1700fps will fragment at close range. VERY ugly.

[WardenWolf]

I strongly recommend against using a slug for home defense. A 12-gauge slug is pretty much the closest thing there is to a man-portable railgun. Even if you hit them, it's going to go through the person and through several walls (even block walls) before finally stopping. Its short-range penetration far exceeds any non-magnum rifle round. Do you REALLY want to destroy your home in the process of taking down the bad guy when there's other loads that will work just as well or better without such obscene overpenetration?

[76shuvlinoff]

Do you REALLY want to destroy your home in the process of taking down the bad guy when there's other loads that will work just as well or better without such obscene overpenetration?

In my rural situation if I put a slug through a bad guy or my walls it's not going to travel to my neighbors. I can fix my house. If said bad guy is using my fridge as cover then I want to turn it into concealment. If this evil doer is wearing some kind of body armor (yeah unlikely but I said "if" ) then I want the advantage.

It wouldn't fill the bill for everyone but I'm a believer.

[Fred Fuller]

Shotgun sensei Louis Awerbuck prefers to use nothing but slugs in defensive shotguns. He says he's not smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammunition.

I don't think I'm smarter than Louis, but I still prefer buckshot close in, and like to keep slugs available on the gun for longer range or to turn cover into concealment at closer range if necessary.

Your situation, needs and training may differ...

lpl

[winchester '97]

It would seem the general oppinion here is that buckshot would be better but keeping a few slugs on the gun in a butt cuff or side saddle would be a great idea as well. I agree completely, it would allow you to do what you need to do in any HD situation.