Getting stuck cases in my revolver.


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dsv424
March 8, 2010, 04:17 PM
Last week I purchased my first revolver(Taurus Raging Bull .44 Mag) and went to the range with some factory loads and some reloads I made for it. Well the factory load cases ejected just fine but for some reason a few of my reloads got stuck in the cylinder and were difficult to remove. The reloads were 240 g. Berry plated bullets with 15.7 grains AA7 and OAL of 1.575. I also used a Lee FCD to crimp them. Since this is my first attempt at reloading for a revolver can someone tell what causes the case to sometimes get stuck in the cylinder? It happened about 1 out of every 10 rounds. BTW, what is the best way to remove them? I was using a wooden dowel to push them out.

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rcmodel
March 8, 2010, 04:29 PM
Too much pressure causes cases to stick.
Rough chambers causes cases to stick.

Your load with 240 / AA #7 is not one listed in Lyman #49.
They do list slower burning AA#9 with 240 jacketed & lead bullets.

Pushing them out one at a time with a wood dowel is best.

But better yet, reduce the load just a little and see if you can keep them from sticking in the first place.

rc

jfh
March 8, 2010, 04:40 PM
It's likely that the cases of your handloads are sticking because of excessive pressure. I just checked my AA 3.3 PDF manual, and for a 240-gr. "Ran FP" (I believe that is a Ranier / plated bullet), it shows a MAX of 15.6 gr. IOW, you are past a MAX load. How did you determine this load as your start charge? If you are not familiar with how to begin loading a new recipe, then it's time to do some more reading, I suspect, to learn the workflow.

If you want a copy of this manual, e-mail me and I will send you one. Meanwhile, back up that 15.6 gr. MAX charge 10% (the start load is 14.0 gr., or 10% lower) and try building some loads again.

As for removing those stuck cases, a wooden dowel should work; I prefer a brass range rod.

Jim H.

243winxb
March 8, 2010, 04:49 PM
Berry plated bullets Should be kept under 1200 fps and NOT crimped with a Lee FCD. A very light roll crimp only. You dont want to break thru the copper plating. The Lee seating die taper crimps first, then roll crimps. http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq.aspx?n=404226

Walkalong
March 8, 2010, 06:46 PM
I just checked my AA 3.3 PDF manual, and for a 240-gr. "Ran FP" (I believe that is a Ranier / plated bullet), it shows a MAX of 15.6 gr. IOW, you are past a MAX load. How did you determine this load as your start charge?
Yep.

Back off to 14.5 and start over. Work up if you have no case sticking issues.

Remo-99
March 9, 2010, 09:16 AM
yep. If the factory rounds are not giving sticky extraction and the reloads are, then I'd backing down the powder charge of the reloaded ammo.
The pressures generated in a 44mag factory round would be concidered extreme by most handgun round standards(well until a decade or two ago).

Point is, if your getting sticky cases, it's exceeding even those pressures. And your holdin that dang thang in your hands when it goes off. Stay safe. :)

dsv424
March 9, 2010, 10:12 AM
Unfortunately I'm at work as I write this and I'm not sure what book I got the recipe from but it was a min level. I think it was from my Hornady book. The min was 15.3g to a max of 17g or 18g for a 240g bullet with an OAL of 1.575. The primers looked fine, no cratering at all, in fact the factory rounds were much stronger(felt recoil) than my reloads. I'm kinda of confused now since I posted this same thread on a different forum and they remarked I was using the starting load and here I'm told I am at max! Thanks for all the advise though, I really appreciate it and when I get home I'll re-check which book for sure I got the recipe from.

dsv424
March 9, 2010, 10:25 AM
Well after looking at the AA 3.3 PDF manual I am a bit concerned in the differences I see there and what I got from my reload book. Not sure what to do because of this discrepency.

NCsmitty
March 9, 2010, 11:33 AM
Not sure what to do because of this discrepency.

A sensible shooter would take the safe road, and reduce the load to the lesser charge, especially if you're experiencing possible high pressure signs like sticking cases. Common sense should dictate your actions.



NCsmitty

John Wayne
March 9, 2010, 11:39 AM
The Lee load data manual lists a load for a 240 gr. Copper Plated bullet with 15.0 gr. ACCUR #7 at 1293 fps. Max charge is 16.8 gr., 1437 fps @ 37,300 CUP, COL 1.575.

I just bought this manual, and I'm not sure I trust it entirely either. The only loads I have used from this manual have been checked against the data on the powder manufacturer's website first.

NCsmitty
March 9, 2010, 12:23 PM
The Accurate powder site is the most current load data for use. Printed data manuals are reference only and as the first page of the online site states, "THIS DATA SUPERSEDES ALL PREVIOUS ACCURATE LOAD DATA, Always use the latest load data".
Cross checking data from several sources to make an informed decision on your loads, comes back to the common sense thing.



NCsmitty

zxcvbob
March 9, 2010, 12:44 PM
You can sanity-check AA#7 load data by comparing it with Blue Dot data. They should be almost the same in large-capacity cases. (might be different in small cases because the Blue Dot is much bulkier and will run out of room before #7)

I'm not saying you can blindly substitute one for the other in the same recipes.

rcmodel
March 9, 2010, 02:57 PM
The Lee load data manual lists a load - and I'm not sure I trust it entirely either.The Lee manual only contains reprinted load data available to them from the powder manufactures when it was sent to the printer in 2003.

Lee has no ballistics lab or any other method of testing data in the Lee Manual.

rc

dsv424
March 9, 2010, 08:11 PM
OK I'm home now and can look at my log book. I did make a mistake by saying I got the recipe from my Hornady book. Actually I got the recipe from my Lee book and it is as John Wayne stated in a earlier post. Min. 15.0 and Max 16.8. with an OAL of 1.575 for copper plated bullets. I have used at least 100 recipes from this book in the past without any problems. The only difference this time is it is for a revolver. I did state in 2 previous posts that this is a brand new gun and I was wondering since I went straight from the gun show to the range without giving it an initial cleaning could this be a problem? Or could it be Lee's data is incorrect even though it I derived it from the min side of the range? Also as I stated earlier the factory rounds I used first had a bit more kick to them than my reloads and they fell right out of the cylinder.

jfh
March 9, 2010, 10:30 PM
some answers, dsv424:

1. Yes, your revolver could have had a dirty chamber. Or, it could have (present tense) a cylinder slightly underspec or slightly-less polished.

2. Yes, Lee's data could be incorrect. It could have copied it from a source that was inaccurate. More likely, the testing done was on a batch of powder different from the one you have.

3. IMO, subjective recoil measurements are not good indicators of pressure, period. Each of us judges these 'feelings' variably, and the combination of minimal skills combined with the highly temporal nature of these experiences makes the judgments unreliable.

4. Perhaps what is most likely is what has not been discussed to this point: that Accurate Arms is not a powder manufacturer per se, but a company that specifies its powders and buys from different manufacturers. It is possible that the most-recent batch of powder is simply "hotter" than the batch tested and available at the time Lee aggragated its lists. IIRC, this happened some years ago with AA No.2. It says little or nothing about AA specifications or acquisition guidelines; similar stories exist for other powders.

Overall, then, there are several variables one can consider and mentally masturbate over. However, the one reliable resource--the most current data from the powder manufacturer lists a lower range of powder charges than the one you used. With that in mind--e.g., that this is the latest information available--it looks to me to be a wise decision to back up the recipe and re-do your load development.

BTW, the issue has nothing to do with this being your first revolver development.

Jim H.

dsv424
March 10, 2010, 11:46 AM
jfh, thanks so much for clarifying these concerns I have had with this load. I will definately heed yours and NCsmitty advise on going with the most recent data that the powder manufacturer recommends. Although I have lost a bit of faith in what Lee has printed in his book(need to consider its data from 7 years ago also). I do realize that when working a new load it is advantageous to have multiple books to reference. I do have Hornady,Speer,Lyman,Nosler,and Sierra books to cross-reference but the Lee book is usually my go-to for copper-plated bullets. That will have to change now. I have since went to the Accurate web-site and printed out their pdf file to add to my reference material. Thanks again for everyones advise.:)

Walkalong
March 10, 2010, 12:02 PM
Here is some more plated bullet data (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6195350&postcount=11) that may come in handy. Be patient, some of the pages are archived.

jfh
March 10, 2010, 01:27 PM
Thank you, dsv424. I know what you mean about a go-to source--e.g., using the one we feel good about. For me, I create a spreadsheet database of favorite loads and related data (and then I forever worry about typing errors).

One other thing I now do is save all powder manufacturer's pdf file to disk and create a link to them. Then I can compare several sources at the same time, if I want--and print them out handily.

Jim H.

dsv424
March 10, 2010, 08:39 PM
Walkalong, all I can say is WOW! Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. Nearly 70% of what I reload is copper-plated which has the least amount of data available.
jfh, thats a great idea, in fact when I printed the Accurate Arms data I made a booklet for it and plan to do the same for other powders if they offer the same pdf style booklet. I'll be surfing around for more tonight. Thanks again for everyones help.:)

Walkalong
March 10, 2010, 08:46 PM
I printed the Accurate Arms data I made a booklet for it and plan to do the same for other powders if they offer the same pdf style booklet
Kind of like this?

dsv424
March 11, 2010, 12:21 AM
Yep, pretty similar although I only have 2 ramshot powders and no Vihtavuori. But I have quite a few of the other manufacturers to make it a worthwhile project. Thanks for the idea.

ranger335v
March 11, 2010, 01:32 PM
"factory load cases ejected just fine but for some reason a few of my reloads got stuck in the cylinder and were difficult to remove. "

Yeah, there's a real clue in that, somewhere.

Lee's data is a reliable as anyone's, the loads they give are from reliable sources that do have pressure devices. ANY book maker can have typos, just a fact if life, so it's nice to have more than one source for confirmation. But no book is a Bible that we can trust without question and none of them claim to be. Every one I've ever seen, that's a lot of books, tell us to "start low and only move up to max or until we see pressure signs", thus, the final authority is US!

Sticking cases are always a high pressure sign, no matter what charge was used or the book suggested.

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